Better Sex Please: We're Thai

[jamman]

Which brings up again social and sexual roles. This would never happen to me in the west, but I can't imagine a better free flowing of love than some ways Sarah and I took care of each other. In the morning, she would usually wake first. Once I was up and ready, she would bring me food. How simple is that? She would use my money, walk down the street a few yards, purchase prepared food, put it on a plate, come upstairs and offer it to me. She didn't just lay it down and walk out, no, we performed our morning ritual. I accepted her devoted offering, we ate together in silence, and then I thanked her and thanked her many times for taking such good care of her Daddy. Every day, for a year. Then we'd have sex. Then we were ready for the day. And when she prepared food she offered as much glow to the room as our 40 watt lightbulbs in our little love hovel. She chopped with devotion - each chop was devotion. She never felt put upon for her devotions.

And I paid for everything. I earned our money. And I breathed many lives into her that she had never known. She was safe and loved and taken care of.

All I can say is WOW!!! I'm not sure but there may be some issues... "Daddy" and "I breathed many lives into her". I'll keep my opinions to myself, but he might want to read what he wrote as an interested bystander instead of as a proud author. WOW!!!

There is not enough information in your post about what, exactly you find distasteful. Sarah is 22. She is not 13. She happens to look 13, and I find her sexually attractive, as does every man I've ever met who met her. She won the sexiest girl contest in Cebu City, dancing on the stage. She is hot - don't blame me for that. Youth is beauty - it just is. She is a hot sexy girl who looks younger than she actually is. She get's people hitting on her constantly wherever she goes. So sue me for being a normal man.

And as for the Daddy thing, please see the difference between the archetype of embodied paternal care and actually having sex with your offspring. Sarah is not actually my daughter. There is no incest going on. She is 22 years old - an adult. It is totally normal for a man to want to care for his woman, and a lot of those feelings are mixed with paternal instincts of nurturing.

There is no need to get all disgusted as if actual incest was going on. Two people just chose to care for each other, and she called me Daddy and I called her Daughter.

And as for the little poetic comment about breating life into her, well, in her own words I did fill her with love and life.

[jamman]

I am a Thai girl and my society never expected to sit back and cook vegetables, prepare food, wash clothes and have sex with my husband every morning.I studied in the west and their value never told me to too.

Maybe I gave the wrong impression. I never expected of Sarah to cook and clean and wash for me, as if she were some servant girl that I owned. Instead we both naturally found ways we could help each other and give to each other in our life.

A cup of tea is a different cup of tea if it is given to you by your mate. It is more nourishing. So I would often ask her if she wanted to drink something, and mix out some orange powder and water and ice and walk upstairs and hand it to her. It isn't that she was thirsty or couldn't get her own water, it is that my bringing her the occasional offering brought more love and care into her life.

The same with her bringing or cooking me food. It was an offering, a gesture of care. And not an unequal one - I would work long hours every day - many more hours than she would ever spend on cooking or cleaning - in order that we had money to spend for our lives.

I don't know why people have a hard time with that. There are many physical ways to show love and care - bringing food is one of them. Sarah really misses the Pancit I would cook for her. I would make big sandwhiches for her too. We never made impositions and expectations, instead we each found our own natural expressions of how to help each other and foster and further and care for each other. What could be bad about that? What could be bad about her cooking for me and taking care of the house and taking care of my clothes? She refused school and had no other career ambitions - it was her plainly stated ambition to care for a man - that is what she wanted to do. Who am I to thwart that expression of devotion? And why? In the beginning I had a hard time respecting her choice to spend her time caring for me instead of furthering education or career, but after many months I learned a much deeper respect for the act of service to a mate.

As for sex every morning, that was no demand - we were both in love and passionate about each other and both had very high sex drives. Magnets meet, not from duty, but from their nature.

Edited April 25, 2006 by jamman

[soic]

I am a Thai girl and my society never expected to sit back and cook vegetables, prepare food, wash clothes and have sex with my husband every morning.I studied in the west and their value never told me to too.

Maybe I gave the wrong impression. I never expected of Sarah to cook and clean and wash for me, as if she were some servant girl that I owned. Instead we both naturally found ways we could help each other and give to each other in our life.

A cup of tea is a different cup of tea if it is given to you by your mate. It is more nourishing. So I would often ask her if she wanted to drink something, and mix out some orange powder and water and ice and walk upstairs and hand it to her. It isn't that she was thirsty or couldn't get her own water, it is that my bringing her the occasional offering brought more love and care into her life.

The same with her bringing or cooking me food. It was an offering, a gesture of care. And not an unequal one - I would work long hours every day - many more hours than she would ever spend on cooking or cleaning - in order that we had money to spend for our lives.

I don't know why people have a hard time with that. There are many physical ways to show love and care - bringing food is one of them. Sarah really misses the Pancit I would cook for her. I would make big sandwhiches for her too. We never made impositions and expectations, instead we each found our own natural expressions of how to help each other and foster and further and care for each other. What could be bad about that? What could be bad about her cooking for me and taking care of the house and taking care of my clothes? She refused school and had no other career ambitions - it was her plainly stated ambition to care for a man - that is what she wanted to do. Who am I to thwart that expression of devotion? And why? In the beginning I had a hard time respecting her choice to spend her time caring for me instead of furthering education or career, but after many months I learned a much deeper respect for the act of service to a mate.

As for sex every morning, that was no demand - we were both in love and passionate about each other and both had very high sex drives. Magnets meet, not from duty, but from their nature.

Legally there's nothing wrong with what you're doing. The implication is what is distasteful. You think that she's especially "SEXY" because she "LOOKS" like a 13 year old. While that's not pedophilia, it's a disturbing placebo for it. I could think of a lot of sexier things to say about the woman I'm in love with. It's your life, enjoy it... at 19 she's impressionable... What's the motto? "If you can't find the woman of your dreams, raise one to suit ya!!!" And to "breath life into her?" Try re-reading your post from beginning to end as if you weren't the writer. You can parse it yourself, take off the rose colored glasses of pride for your prose, and critic it. It's your life and your lifestyle, we all have our own prides and predjudices... just don't be surprised if you don't recieve a lot of applause for yours.

[jamman]

A few more comments about the Daddy archetype.

The first woman I explored that with was my fiance, who at the time was 44 years old to my 36. Her ex husband was 15 years older than her. It turns out that she responded strongly in a very deep way to paternal love, and the few times I played with that role playing were very intimate and loving for us.

Fast forward some years. I met and fell in love with a very beautiful extremely intelligent highly educated hyper articulate 22 year old woman from Pakistan. Unfortunately, she was already engaged, but we had our affair anyway. We gave ourselves over to role playing Daddy Daughter. She nearly married me - very nearly - but instead did fly out to the US to marry her fiance. She now calls him Daddy. They have been married for over two years now. A few days ago she wrote this to me by email:

"if I were a marraige counselor, the only suggestion or advice I would ever give my clients having trouble in marriage would be to tell the woman to start calling her husband daddy. She doesn't even have to feel it or mean it at first, she just has to say it. And then watch their marriage become rock-solid, unshakeable. No woman would be a bitch -- ever ever, even if they decide to break up anyway -- to her daddy. If they split, it'll be decently done and they will wish each other well. That's the power of that archetype. And it's for everyone, not just me. I know that now."

[jamman]

I am a Thai girl and my society never expected to sit back and cook vegetables, prepare food, wash clothes and have sex with my husband every morning.I studied in the west and their value never told me to too.

Maybe I gave the wrong impression. I never expected of Sarah to cook and clean and wash for me, as if she were some servant girl that I owned. Instead we both naturally found ways we could help each other and give to each other in our life.

A cup of tea is a different cup of tea if it is given to you by your mate. It is more nourishing. So I would often ask her if she wanted to drink something, and mix out some orange powder and water and ice and walk upstairs and hand it to her. It isn't that she was thirsty or couldn't get her own water, it is that my bringing her the occasional offering brought more love and care into her life.

The same with her bringing or cooking me food. It was an offering, a gesture of care. And not an unequal one - I would work long hours every day - many more hours than she would ever spend on cooking or cleaning - in order that we had money to spend for our lives.

I don't know why people have a hard time with that. There are many physical ways to show love and care - bringing food is one of them. Sarah really misses the Pancit I would cook for her. I would make big sandwhiches for her too. We never made impositions and expectations, instead we each found our own natural expressions of how to help each other and foster and further and care for each other. What could be bad about that? What could be bad about her cooking for me and taking care of the house and taking care of my clothes? She refused school and had no other career ambitions - it was her plainly stated ambition to care for a man - that is what she wanted to do. Who am I to thwart that expression of devotion? And why? In the beginning I had a hard time respecting her choice to spend her time caring for me instead of furthering education or career, but after many months I learned a much deeper respect for the act of service to a mate.

As for sex every morning, that was no demand - we were both in love and passionate about each other and both had very high sex drives. Magnets meet, not from duty, but from their nature.

Legally there's nothing wrong with what you're doing. The implication is what is distasteful. You think that she's especially "SEXY" because she "LOOKS" like a 13 year old. While that's not pedophilia, it's a disturbing placebo for it. I could think of a lot of sexier things to say about the woman I'm in love with. It's your life, enjoy it... at 19 she's impressionable... What's the motto? "If you can't find the woman of your dreams, raise one to suit ya!!!" And to "breath life into her?" Try re-reading your post from beginning to end as if you weren't the writer. You can parse it yourself, take off the rose colored glasses of pride for your prose, and critic it. It's your life and your lifestyle, we all have our own prides and predjudices... just don't be surprised if you don't recieve a lot of applause for yours.

I assume that you mean that the distasteful implication is that I might want to have sex with either thirteen year olds, or, if I had had a daughter, with my own daughter.

It is difficult to talk about Daddy archetype in ways that wouldn't make someone think of incest - but plainly role playing and taking on archetypes is not incest. So implication really doesn't matter.

As for wanting being attracted to very youthful features in a woman who is 22, I'll leave that to you to decide how distasteful that is. I personally have no taboo around that at all. She is in actuality 22, and is attractive, partly because she looks much younger. Is it somehow distasteful to be turned on by that? For me, I have no problem or issue - no one is hurt.

[soic]

I'll let you enjoy that role. I won't fault it if it works for you. I myself wouldn't want my wife or girlfriend to call me Daddy. I would feel awkward, nothing to do with the incestuous implications. I would worry about the romance aspect. I would rather my significant other love me as her lover and her equal. To offer to play the paternal role while living the role of life partner, would be fostering confusion. That's creating a dependancy on you for more than is station. It's disturbing as it goes against what is accepted as "normal societal behavior". I don't know what else to say... being attracted because of her youthful appearance is common; but the fact that her looking like a 13 year old is what is arousing, that's the disturbing part. What if there weren't any 19 year old females that looked like they were 13, what would arouse you then... how would you satisfy that desire? Live long and prosper... and forever may her beauty hold.

[rainman]

There is not enough information in your post about what, exactly you find distasteful. Sarah is 22. She is not 13. She happens to look 13, and I find her sexually attractive, as does every man I've ever met who met her. She won the sexiest girl contest in Cebu City, dancing on the stage. She is hot - don't blame me for that. Youth is beauty - it just is. She is a hot sexy girl who looks younger than she actually is. She get's people hitting on her constantly wherever she goes. So sue me for being a normal man.

And as for the Daddy thing, please see the difference between the archetype of embodied paternal care and actually having sex with your offspring. Sarah is not actually my daughter. There is no incest going on. She is 22 years old - an adult. It is totally normal for a man to want to care for his woman, and a lot of those feelings are mixed with paternal instincts of nurturing.

There is no need to get all disgusted as if actual incest was going on. Two people just chose to care for each other, and she called me Daddy and I called her Daughter.

And as for the little poetic comment about breating life into her, well, in her own words I did fill her with love and life.

may we ask how old you are?

[chuchok]

There is not enough information in your post about what, exactly you find distasteful. Sarah is 22. She is not 13. She happens to look 13, and I find her sexually attractive, as does every man I've ever met who met her. She won the sexiest girl contest in Cebu City, dancing on the stage. She is hot - don't blame me for that. Youth is beauty - it just is. She is a hot sexy girl who looks younger than she actually is. She get's people hitting on her constantly wherever she goes. So sue me for being a normal man.

And as for the Daddy thing, please see the difference between the archetype of embodied paternal care and actually having sex with your offspring. Sarah is not actually my daughter. There is no incest going on. She is 22 years old - an adult. It is totally normal for a man to want to care for his woman, and a lot of those feelings are mixed with paternal instincts of nurturing.

There is no need to get all disgusted as if actual incest was going on. Two people just chose to care for each other, and she called me Daddy and I called her Daughter.

And as for the little poetic comment about breating life into her, well, in her own words I did fill her with love and life.

Scary enough for me.

[Dustoff]

~

Who's your Daddy?!

What a great thread! Reading all of these posts reminds me of my long-time conviction that love, sex and relationships are as varied as the number of people who engage in them. I have to admit however that the writings of soic mirror my own so much that I feel I may have written them myself. Go figure.

Having visited Thailand many, many times since my first visit in 1966, I have certainly met my share of Thai ladies (wonderful creatures that they are) including some that I met in bars. While I have the same hormones as most males and like to play 'short-time' sometimes, I would usually find a compatable lady to accompany me for the 1-3 weeks average that I was in-country to be my lover, interpreter, companion and I found that bar lady or not, most were as delightful and deserving of my total respect as anyone else I have met in this long life of mine.

Being 'mostly' settled down now with my Thai soulmate, I only have to look into her tearful eyes when she tells me I am "her man" and that she loves me to know that I am doing something right. No expectations, no jealosy, sharing love and respect to da max, it works for us just as it does for anyone willing to be introspective and treat women as total equals.

My lady frequently goes on religious sabbaticals for weeks at a time and while she is gone I make sure that our home is as clean and kept up as when she is here and she is always delighted to find that I have swept, mopped, did laundry and dishes, took care of the yard and didn't bring any 'playthings' into her bed. Even while she is here, I do the dishes and cleaning kinda stuff within reason (MY reason of course) even though she happily complains. Life and love is a cooperative effort and I never object to 'shopping and chopping' as part of our life together.

Daddy? Hmmm okay, I was something less than shocked over those statements. I mean after all, it is not unusual for women of any culture to seek a father image (given a happy relationship with their own father) in a prospective mate nor for a man who has been harangued by a 'mature' woman to find comfort in a younger woman who is not so, umm, beligerent (please don't beat me up over that statement, okay?).

Just as men who are into large breasts are likely to be relating back to when they were snuggled and loved and delightfully smothered in those big, soft bags that provided the milk of life, eh? There are memories in our lives that could be worse to wish to revert back to..

"Hot, looks thirteen but is twenty-two"? Well, okay, borderline but better than looks thirteen but is twelve, eh?

As to BPD, I was unfortunate/stupid enough to have developed a relationship with TWO women who were afflicted with Borderline Personality Disorder and I gotta tell ya, WHEW! Usually socially adept, very bright and able to affect/infect most people around them, they also are the reason that many psychologists and psychiatrists choose another profession after having one of them as a patient. There is an excellent old book out named, "I Hate You, Don't Leave Me" that spells the disorder out in detail and thoroughly describes those two monsters that almost destroyed my life. Multiple personality disorders are common, they are psychotically brilliant enough to fool almost any other human being and can flip-flop from being one of the kindest and generous healers to a Pit Bull with Rabies! Since 1966 I always knew that I would someday live in Thailand but my little British Louise (30, looked 17) drove me to an early retirement over here and I am still happy that I am on the opposite side of the planet from wherever she may be...

Posted by soic:

When someone loves you, they should be in tune with your feelings and be able to

tell how you feel and be able to anticipate your needs.

Exactly. But then it is always reasonable to ask if your other half seems reluctant to share the reason for "that look", right? Time to take their hand, lead them to a snuggle-spot and say, Come on, come on, what's up?" At least in our case, this always leads to truth without judgment and giggles when it all goes away through mutual understanding and love...

[BKK Traveler]

I am a Thai girl and my society never expected to sit back and cook vegetables, prepare food, wash clothes and have sex with my husband every morning.I studied in the west and their value never told me to too.

My mother never teached me to wear a student or nurse outfit to make my husband have the feeling for sex.

I lived in the west and Thailand and had both Thai and foriegn boyfriends and about sexual performance i cant say there are a many difference but foriegn guys like to ask in the morning about "How was the sex last night was it good for you?"

I dont want to answer such a private question, the foriegner doesnt understand about how Thai girls feel about such things. Almost the forienger doesnt know about Thai girls and they can only explain thier feeling after have a bar girl.

First of all, a warm welcome to Thai Visa. I think we could use more Thai women like you here who aren't afraid to share their opinions.

Your comments about sex are most intriguing to me. Specifically, I'm wondering if you'd be brave enough to share with us how Thai girls feel about sex and what they expect from their partner. How should one go about asking about or talking about sex to his Thai girlfriend? Is there a proper way to do it? What sort of things do you like like about Farang men and what things do you not like? A lot of us guys come from a different background and unless someone explains things to us we're likely going to make a lot of mistakes when making the transition to a relationship with a Thai girl. Any comments or advice about these matters would be appreciated.

[rainman]

jamman:

from your posts, what i can gather ...is that:

1. some years ago, when you were 36, you were with a woman in her 40's.

2. ..then you "fast forward" some years, you were with a 22 year old pakistani woman.

3. ..now you're with a 22 year old thai woman that "looks 13".

i don't know about anyone else, but from my view is it that the older you get the younger the women (by now, girls) get. i'm assuming you're in your 50's by now, dating a 22 year old that looks like 13. sorry, that's sick.

sounds to me that after western women made you cut vegetables (quote: I'll tell what about some western women does not spark my passions. Being expected to chop vegetables.) and clean your own dirty underwear, you moved to asia, got together with a girl that you teached to call you daddy and that is probably now financially dependant on you and in exchange has to cook and do all the housework. i hope that at least when you die you leave her lots of money so she won't be without anything other than a daddy complex, because she's only been sitting at home caring for her daddy and not being able to build and existance and learn to support herself. or maybe she's the smart kind of girl and will find another daddy...

sorry for being honest.

[jamman]

I'll let you enjoy that role. I won't fault it if it works for you. I myself wouldn't want my wife or girlfriend to call me Daddy. I would feel awkward, nothing to do with the incestuous implications. I would worry about the romance aspect. I would rather my significant other love me as her lover and her equal. To offer to play the paternal role while living the role of life partner, would be fostering confusion. That's creating a dependancy on you for more than is station. It's disturbing as it goes against what is accepted as "normal societal behavior". I don't know what else to say... being attracted because of her youthful appearance is common; but the fact that her looking like a 13 year old is what is arousing, that's the disturbing part. What if there weren't any 19 year old females that looked like they were 13, what would arouse you then... how would you satisfy that desire? Live long and prosper... and forever may her beauty hold.

I was never fooled that she looks 13, but many are. I can see the subtle signs of her near dwarfism - the very rounded shoulders, some subtle features of the face. Your question of if there were not women of acceptable sexual age who did not look 13, what would I do - would I have sex with 13 year olds, kinda is a whole different story. Sara is 22. A thirteen year old is thirteen. It's very different. Jeez, I'm pretty liberal, but I don't think I'd really want to go there. I think people mix up apples and oranges and see things in black and white. "THIRTEEN?!!! My god! How can you mention 13 and sexy in the same sentence! You perve!" Sarah is 22. She isn't thirteen. I did not have sex with a thirteen year old, and I am not going to have sex with a thirteen year old. The fact that she is sort of a freak, that she looks strange, a strange blend of womanliness and girliness is a turn on for me. I love her small size and extreme youth. How else am I to put that in words? Must I steer clear of taboo subjects, like teen sex? She is 22 - I thought that would keep things clear - she is 22. And as I said, many find her attractive - I have no strange fetish. She is strikingly sexy. In her little freak way.

As for being lover and equal, boy, this must be a very difficult subject to communicate well. Sarah was my child bride, and we were not equals. We were not the same. But we were equal in our love for each other and mutual commitment and passion. She took on some roles, and I others. There was no imbalance. I am smarter than her. So what. She is younger and sexier than me. So what. She could easily have dated richer and more attractive guys. So what. We were not equal, in many, many ways. So what. The way we gave to each other was balanced.

[Dustoff]

First of all, a warm welcome to Thai Visa. I think we could use more Thai women like you here who aren't afraid to share their opinions.

Your comments about sex are most intriguing to me. Specifically, I'm wondering if you'd be brave enough to share with us how Thai girls feel about sex and what they expect from their partner. How should one go about asking about or talking about sex to his Thai girlfriend? Is there a proper way to do it? What sort of things do you like like about Farang men and what things do you not like? A lot of us guys come from a different background and unless someone explains things to us we're likely going to make a lot of mistakes when making the transition to a relationship with a Thai girl. Any comments or advice about these matters would be appreciated.

Brilliant questions, BKK Traveler!

I sincerely hope that the Thai ladies who are members of these forums will respond.

[chuchok]

I'll let you enjoy that role. I won't fault it if it works for you. I myself wouldn't want my wife or girlfriend to call me Daddy. I would feel awkward, nothing to do with the incestuous implications. I would worry about the romance aspect. I would rather my significant other love me as her lover and her equal. To offer to play the paternal role while living the role of life partner, would be fostering confusion. That's creating a dependancy on you for more than is station. It's disturbing as it goes against what is accepted as "normal societal behavior". I don't know what else to say... being attracted because of her youthful appearance is common; but the fact that her looking like a 13 year old is what is arousing, that's the disturbing part. What if there weren't any 19 year old females that looked like they were 13, what would arouse you then... how would you satisfy that desire? Live long and prosper... and forever may her beauty hold.

I was never fooled that she looks 13, but many are. I can see the subtle signs of her near dwarfism - the very rounded shoulders, some subtle features of the face. Your question of if there were not women of acceptable sexual age who did not look 13, what would I do - would I have sex with 13 year olds, kinda is a whole different story. Sara is 22. A thirteen year old is thirteen. It's very different. Jeez, I'm pretty liberal, but I don't think I'd really want to go there. I think people mix up apples and oranges and see things in black and white. "THIRTEEN?!!! My god! How can you mention 13 and sexy in the same sentence! You perve!" Sarah is 22. She isn't thirteen. I did not have sex with a thirteen year old, and I am not going to have sex with a thirteen year old. The fact that she is sort of a freak, that she looks strange, a strange blend of womanliness and girliness is a turn on for me. I love her small size and extreme youth. How else am I to put that in words? Must I steer clear of taboo subjects, like teen sex? She is 22 - I thought that would keep things clear - she is 22. And as I said, many find her attractive - I have no strange fetish. She is strikingly sexy. In her little freak way.

As for being lover and equal, boy, this must be a very difficult subject to communicate well. Sarah was my child bride, and we were not equals. We were not the same. But we were equal in our love for each other and mutual commitment and passion. She took on some roles, and I others. There was no imbalance. I am smarter than her. So what. She is younger and sexier than me. So what. She could easily have dated richer and more attractive guys. So what. We were not equal, in many, many ways. So what. The way we gave to each other was balanced.

This is either a huge wind up, or you are one different type of puppy.

[jamman]

jamman:

from your posts, what i can gather ...is that:

1. some years ago, when you were 36, you were with a woman in her 40's.

2. ..then you "fast forward" some years, you were with a 22 year old pakistani woman.

3. ..now you're with a 22 year old thai woman that "looks 13".

i don't know about anyone else, but from my view is it that the older you get the younger the women (by now, girls) get. i'm assuming you're in your 50's by now, dating a 22 year old that looks like 13. sorry, that's sick.

sounds to me that after western women made you cut vegetables (quote: I'll tell what about some western women does not spark my passions. Being expected to chop vegetables.) and clean your own dirty underwear, you moved to asia, got together with a girl that you teached to call you daddy and that is probably now financially dependant on you and in exchange has to cook and do all the housework. i hope that at least when you die you leave her lots of money so she won't be without anything other than a daddy complex, because she's only been sitting at home caring for her daddy and not being able to build and existance and learn to support herself. or maybe she's the smart kind of girl and will find another daddy...

sorry for being honest.

I don't mind you being honest, but aren't you also being rather disrespectful to both Sarah and myself? You assume that she "has to cook and clean" for me for financial reasons. If you read my posts, you would have heard me say that she refused to go to school (I had encouraged her over and over) and she had no career ambitions. She wanted to do this, out of her own choice. You diminish her choice. That is disrespectful of you to do that.

And it is disrespectful to me to suggest that I made her cook and clean for me formoney, especially as if you read my posts I talked about how I showed my love to her in some ways, and she showed her love to me in others. You equate it all with money. That is disgusting.

I also mentioned that Sarah and I are no longer together. I left her after Christmas, because she has BPD and is dangerous to live with. If I wanted to I could fly back there tomorrow and marry her the same day. She has had many suitors since I was gone, but she would marry me in a heartbeat. And not for money - I am broke. And I'm ugly. And an old 40 year old guy. If you think she has no reason to want to marry me, you disrespect her intelligence and heart and choices.

[jamman]

I would rather my significant other love me as her lover and her equal. To offer to play the paternal role while living the role of life partner, would be fostering confusion. That's creating a dependancy on you for more than is station. It's disturbing as it goes against what is accepted as "normal societal behavior".

.

Here are a few more thoughts on how equality and relationships don't mix well. What is required is balance, not equality. I wrote this a month or so ago.

Nobody wants an equal peer for a mate - if they do how can they enjoy sex? At any one time someone is on top. Dominance, submission, both are the same expression - owning and being owned. "Yes, take me! I'm your dirty little slut! F* me harder! Use me, I'm yours." It doesn't have to come down to such violence, but nor is there any value to being timid about the whole thing. Daddy is the man who is always there, the one who won't let you run away. The one you want to be there, the one you want to remind you that you are owned. The one you want to be able to make jealous. The one who keeps you.

And what is Mommy? Not a Daddy with an innie. A Mommy feeds you, nourishes you, provides your environment so that you are strong. With her and from her you find your power and it flows up and into your belly, and together your sex feeds on it's mutual energy and rejuvenates and you don't tire of each other. She's the one that puts you to sleep and the one that wakes you up, and the one breathing beside you in your naked dreams. Food and sex and emotional support and an environment of shared love within which to live.

And sometimes Daddy plays receptive, and Mommy wields the sex toys. Tops and bottoms change, but Daddy is still Daddy, Mommy still Mommy - they complement, fluidly.

There is never equality in anything that isn't inert, but there can be complementarity and dynamic balances. I pay for the food, you go buy it and put it on the plate and set it out for us. You open to me sexually, and I'll pound the life into you until you don't know if you are coming or going. You fall in love with me, and I'll keep you.

You can't have a chemical reaction without imbalances. There is nothing that moves driven by equal and opposing forces. Passion, real passion, the kind that renews itself instead of spends itself, is a force to respect, a force to trust, a force to harness into life. Passion is all about embrace and lust and love and awe for what is deeper - it can animate us. To dominate, to be dominated, to love, to be loved, are the outward expressions of our inward uniting and our ultimate shared essence. The dynamism of the powers of forces is in their voltages and amperages and differences and union. Eat me. Eat me all up. Swallow it, swallow it! Swallow me and let me rest inside you, my dream partner, my mate, my little bitch. Daddy's little bitch. You may be a bitch, but you're MY bitch. I own your ass.

I saw a TV show where the groom was at his tempting bachelor party, succumbed briefly, and on admitting all to his fiance, she told him that it was all fine, it didn't matter. Needless to say, they didn't marry. If she cared at all there should have been an explosion, a fire, a retribution. At the least a glare to end all glares. She didn't care enough to want to own him as her property. And that is what being mated means - you are not only mixed and a part of each other, you also own each other's ass.

Daddy love is the love from the one that has no choice but to be there, the one who will remind you that you have no choice but to be there. Daddy love embounds you, and you are always within it.

So what woman doesn't want a Daddy?

Edited April 25, 2006 by jamman

[kat]

Jamman:

In my post a while back, I was not trying to imply that you are responsible for her BPD, although I could see why you read it that way. I'm sorry for the misunderstanding, or for sounding glib. I would quote the post, but my internet is extremely slow and I just lost a whole long post in response. So, I'm in no mood to go into detail all over again, so I keep this one short as well, but I hope not glib.

I believe that people with BPD and other severe emotional dysfunctions have them because of past abuse and trauma, and possibly because of a fragmented sense of self. I know that Westerners have these dysfunctions, but usually because of the same reasons. I think that there are a lot more undiagnosed emotional dysfunctions especially among women in developing countries, and especially Asia. So, when I said "and I wonder why", I really was wondering what happened to this woman in her past, that was most likely overlooked and smoothed over by the "perfect Asian woman" role. You denigrate or sneer at the changes that have happened in the West as we try to find our way toward a position where women have choices, but you have no problem embracing the 'perfect femininity" constructs that in large part probably contributed to her emotional scarring and illness.

Magnets attract the same materials of which they are made.

*edit - BPD

** - Also, I think I know who you are Jamman, and if I'm correct we've had a few discussions on another forum.

Edited April 25, 2006 by kat

[rainman]

I left her after Christmas, because she has BPD and is dangerous to live with.

if you really loved her as much as you say you did, why didn't you stay with her and work it out? i'm not familiar at all with BPD, but a short search got me here: http://www.bpdcentral.com/faqs.shtml

quote: The Stone New York State Psychiatric Institute did an outcome study of 206 BPD clients admitted between 1963 and 1976 who spent three months or more in inpatient unit. Follow-up study showed: ... Two-thirds of sample patients now in their 30s and 40s were rated as "good" or "recovered" on the Global Assessment Scale, a tool used by clinicians ..

surely since the 70's medicine has come a long way and there's treatment if you really cared for her. but from your posts it seems like you enjoyed getting breakfast in bed, her cooking for you and cleaning, etc. but when she had a problem you left her.

[rainman]

Daddy is the man who is always there, the one who won't let you run away.

sure, daddy is always there ..but daddy runs away first when daddy finds out daughter has BPD.

[jamman]

I left her after Christmas, because she has BPD and is dangerous to live with.

if you really loved her as much as you say you did, why didn't you stay with her and work it out? i'm not familiar at all with BPD, but a short search got me here: http://www.bpdcentral.com/faqs.shtml

quote: The Stone New York State Psychiatric Institute did an outcome study of 206 BPD clients admitted between 1963 and 1976 who spent three months or more in inpatient unit. Follow-up study showed: ... Two-thirds of sample patients now in their 30s and 40s were rated as "good" or "recovered" on the Global Assessment Scale, a tool used by clinicians ..

surely since the 70's medicine has come a long way and there's treatment if you really cared for her. but from your posts it seems like you enjoyed getting breakfast in bed, her cooking for you and cleaning, etc. but when she had a problem you left her.

She was allergic to her medication, unfortunately. I read every article on that website, and on many others. I am convinced that it was not a healthy situation, and would not improve enough to become healthy. It was outright dangerous to me.

But then, maybe you know more than me about all that.

[kat]

And I need to add one other thing about "daddy". You said that you dated a hyper-intelligent, educated Pakistani - i.e. Asian woman - who thought that all relationships should use this as a model. Some women who grew up in very strict patriarchical societies or environments will then use this as a reference point of power, but others like myself, will turn totally against it.

That is the wonderful thing about being empowered from within, and living in a society which supports and encourages female empowerment from within: we have a choice. We don't have to succumb to "daddy" for the rest of our lives for EVERYTHING

*edit: And believe it or not, I do emotionally/sexually understand what you are saying here: quote "She didn't care enough to want to own him as her property. And that is what being mated means - you are not only mixed and a part of each other, you also own each other's ass." end quote

But I relate to that from other experiences, not for want of a daddy (yuk!)

Edited April 25, 2006 by kat

[jamman]

Jamman:

I believe that people with BPD and other severe emotional dysfunctions have them because of past abuse and trauma, and possibly because of a fragmented sense of self. I know that Westerners have these dysfunctions, but usually because of the same reasons. I think that there are a lot more undiagnosed emotional dysfunctions especially among women in developing countries, and especially Asia. So, when I said "and I wonder why", I really was wondering what happened to this woman in her past, that was most likely overlooked and smoothed over by the "perfect Asian woman" role. You denigrate or sneer at the changes that have happened in the West as we try to find our way toward a position where women have choices, but you have no problem embracing the 'perfect femininity" constructs that in large part probably contributed to her emotional scarring and illness.

Magnets attract the same materials of which they are made.

Ya, trauma was part of her past. All sorts of family dysfunctions, some more than merely disgusting, but illegal. And I agree that BPD and other personality disorders are likely more common in Asia.

I don't think the Asian women's role is perfect. But I do think that some western women, in wanting the freedom to choose their own role wind up imposing a role upon their mate. I used the vegetable chopping example not to mean that women should chop the vegetables. I meant it to mean that a man is happy with pizza, so if you move in with a man, and don't want pizza, chop your own ###### vegetables. He isn't oppressing you by his happiness with pizza and avoidance of vegetable chopping. Men share a set of vague and shifting characteristics that are vaguely and shiftily different than womens. We don't see the same size of dust particles, so we vacuum less. If you want a "clean" house to a woman's standards, then take on the extra cleaning that is your higher standard. In the west some women are hypersensitive about equality, to the point of wanting to enforce sameness. Men and women are not the same. So let the mother do most of the baby nurturing for the first two years. That is what mothers do. There are differences that can reflect in how the household is managed, and it doesn't have to be a micro managed big deal.

I think western women can be too touchy and sensitive about power issues also.

On the other hand, I much prefer the emotional and intellectual sophistication of western women.

Edited April 25, 2006 by jamman

[jamman]

And I need to add one other thing about "daddy". You said that you dated a hyper-intelligent, educated Pakistani - i.e. Asian woman - who thought that all relationships should use this as a model. Some women who grew up in very strict patriarchical societies or environments will then use this as a reference point of power, but others like myself, will turn totally against it.

That is the wonderful thing about being empowered from within, and living in a society which supports and encourages female empowerment from within: we have a choice. We don't have to succumb to "daddy" for the rest of our lives for EVERYTHING

I'm not quite following your train of thought on this. My love the Pakistani woman, let's call her "Sue", is so educated as to be beyond merely of her culture. She is hyper literate - she has read nearly every book in the public domain and reads many interesting new books each week - not all ficion. She vigorously hates Islam, and is planning on writing a book about the ills of the society, including the patriarchal pathologies.

I think you may want to invest a bit more time in thinking about archetypes. Let's start with Quan Yin, or Mother Mary.

* Edit - I recently have been rereading and old Ken Wilber book. As usual, he talks about the various developmental levels of consciousness. He mentions that after vision logic, is a subtle realm characterised by archetype. In the contemplative traditions you begin by visualising or contemplating an archetype or deity or perfect form, or in the Soto Zen tradition you contemplate a koan. You get so into it, that you start to identify with it. You become one with it. After that, you can move to more subtle states still of you and the archetype disolving into a prior essense.

So I think that when I am talking about Daddy, I want you to really hear what Daddy is. Daddy is love - big strong love. It is a positive archetype. A form that a person can identify with and embody. If Daddy is too werid to think of, think of Quan Yin - a female representation of compassion. For me, Daddy is also Quan Yin - absolutely. He just has a big strong dick.

It is sign of sickness that in the west "paternal" is used so often in derogatory ways, while "maternal" is used so often in positive ways. Lets reclaim paternal to also be grouped in the same category as maternal - both parental and nurturing, in their different ways.

Edited April 25, 2006 by jamman

[kat]

Jamman:

I believe that people with BPD and other severe emotional dysfunctions have them because of past abuse and trauma, and possibly because of a fragmented sense of self. I know that Westerners have these dysfunctions, but usually because of the same reasons. I think that there are a lot more undiagnosed emotional dysfunctions especially among women in developing countries, and especially Asia. So, when I said "and I wonder why", I really was wondering what happened to this woman in her past, that was most likely overlooked and smoothed over by the "perfect Asian woman" role. You denigrate or sneer at the changes that have happened in the West as we try to find our way toward a position where women have choices, but you have no problem embracing the 'perfect femininity" constructs that in large part probably contributed to her emotional scarring and illness.

Magnets attract the same materials of which they are made.

Ya, trauma was part of her past. All sorts of family dysfunctions, some more than merely disgusting, but illegal. And I agree that BPD and other personality disorders are likely more common in Asia.

I don't think the Asian women's role is perfect. But I do think that some western women, in wanting the freedom to choose their own role wind up imposing a role upon their mate. I used the vegetable chopping example not to mean that women should chop the vegetables. I meant it to mean that a man is happy with pizza, so if you move in with a man, and don't want pizza, chop your own ###### vegetables. He isn't oppressing you by his happiness with pizza and avoidance of vegetable chopping. Men share a set of vague and shifting characteristics that are vaguely and shiftily different than womens. We don't see the same size of dust particles, so we vacuum less. If you want a "clean" house to a woman's standards, then take on the extra cleaning that is your higher standard. In the west some women are hypersensitive about equality, to the point of wanting to enforce sameness. Men and women are not the same. So let the mother do most of the baby nurturing for the first two years. That is what mothers do. There are differences that can reflect in how the household is managed, and it doesn't have to be a micro managed big deal.

I think western women can be too touchy and sensitive about power issues also.

On the other hand, I much prefer the emotional and intellectual sophistication of western women.

I don't really disagree with what you are saying in this post, but the way you have worded this in other posts tells me that there are underlying contradictions. In order to properly care for one another, it helps to support and sustain one another. In the west, women work and many have very good jobs. If you belong to each other in a couple, that also means sometimes doing things that may please you less than it does your partner. If this is done equally (compromise), then you are working together, not oppressing one another. What is so wrong with sharing household activities if you both work? And if you fathered a child, why do you get to sleep while she is up in the middle of the night? You see, "daddy" doesn't look so benign to me now. You may be happy and wax philosophical about the wonderful understanding between women's roles and men, but I know for a fact that in the west this is also a major reason for marital stress and divorce.

Personally, I cannot say that I would lose total respect for a man who couldn't get up with me in the middle of the night, or change our baby's diapers, because I could never end up with such a man in the first place.

*sorry my editing is sloppy tonight

Edited April 25, 2006 by kat

[rainman]

man after reading all this i'm just happy i'm not weird...

[kat]

I'm not quite following your train of thought on this. My love the Pakistani woman, let's call her "Sue", is so educated as to be beyond merely of her culture. She is hyper literate - she has read nearly every book in the public domain and reads many interesting new books each week - not all ficion. She vigorously hates Islam, and is planning on writing a book about the ills of the society, including the patriarchal pathologies.

I think you may want to invest a bit more time in thinking about archetypes. Let's start with Quan Yin, or Mother Mary.

No actually, I think you need to invest more time in thinking about origins of these archetypes. My archetype is not the same as hers or yours. Archetypes vary from culture to culture.

The role of daddy and women also varies from culture to culture, just as archetypes vary. And I don't believe that has anything to do with a person's level of education. Culture goes deeper than education. There are plenty of highly educated women in Pakistan that were educated in the West, who live well within their culture's expectations and archetypes.

** yeah, got your edit on the post above. I agree with not assuming an automatic negative or positive value for daddy/mommy, male/female, creativity/destruction, because all have their equal place in the scheme of the universe - life. However, I think that has been the whole point about women these last 2,000 years that some of us have been stating for the last 30.

And I almost bought a Ken Wilbur book because of you, but it was too expensive so I bought something else. At any rate, you just made my point about cultural differences in archetypes.

Edited April 25, 2006 by kat

[soic]

soic @ 2006-04-25 19:17:03)

I would rather my significant other love me as her lover and her equal. To offer to play the paternal role while living the role of life partner, would be fostering confusion. That's creating a dependancy on you for more than is station. It's disturbing as it goes against what is accepted as "normal societal behavior".

Part of the reason for that statement from before was that dependancy. You set your self up to owe her more than you were ready to give. Her BPD may have been dangerous to you, and unhealthy, but by sharing that "paternal love" you were implying that you would support her in more ways than a regular lover. A "Daddy" wouldn't have given up... as a father to two beautiful and precious daughters, I would lay down my life for them in an instant. That is one of the dangers of a "love" like that, it breeds a responsibility that you weren't really ready or willing to take on.

I can't believe that you would be more attrated to Western women given all of the things that you relished in your other relationships. I don't remember meeting any western woman that would have been willing, ready, able or excited about calling me Daddy, other than my children. Western women are more independant and free thinkers. They are less likely to be corraled in the kitchen by a sense of duty or obligation. Good luck to you! I hope you find what you're looking for... if you really know what that is. You know something... looks aren't the most important part of love, in fact it's actually a very small part of it. I divorced a 28 year old Romanian woman that literally looks like a Supermodel... Why? She wasn't as beautiful on the inside as she was on the outside. We are still good friends and will always be, we're the proud parents of a beautiful daughter. We had cultural differences and issues with her parents living in our home for 5 years. Our looks had little to do with our marraige. I'm 43, she's 28, I could have stayed married to her for the rest of my life, I didn't need a trophy wife to cook and clean for me. I needed a wife... an equal, a woman that would stand side by side with me... We all look for different things in life... I hope you find what you're looking for.

[jamman]

I'm not quite following your train of thought on this. My love the Pakistani woman, let's call her "Sue", is so educated as to be beyond merely of her culture. She is hyper literate - she has read nearly every book in the public domain and reads many interesting new books each week - not all ficion. She vigorously hates Islam, and is planning on writing a book about the ills of the society, including the patriarchal pathologies.

I think you may want to invest a bit more time in thinking about archetypes. Let's start with Quan Yin, or Mother Mary.

No actually, I think you need to invest more time in thinking about origins of these archetypes. My archetype is not the same as hers or yours. Archetypes vary from culture to culture.

The role of daddy and women also varies from culture to culture, just as and archetypes vary. And I don't believe that has anything to do with a person's level of education. There are plenty of highly educated women in Pakistan that were educated in the West, who live well within their culture's expectations and archetypes.

I edited my post while you were writing yours.

I had suggested Quan Yin or Mother Mary to suggest to you that a Daddy archetype could be not a social stereotype, but an archetype of positive love and care. You say "eww!" and think it is sick to love Daddy - but I think maybe we are therefore talking about different things altogether. Daddy as archetype isn't some old guy who raised you up.

repost from above.

I think you may want to invest a bit more time in thinking about archetypes. Let's start with Quan Yin, or Mother Mary.

* Edit - I recently have been rereading and old Ken Wilber book. As usual, he talks about the various developmental levels of consciousness. He mentions that after vision logic, is a subtle realm characterised by archetype. In the contemplative traditions you begin by visualising or contemplating an archetype or deity or perfect form, or in the Soto Zen tradition you contemplate a koan. You get so into it, that you start to identify with it. You become one with it. After that, you can move to more subtle states still of you and the archetype disolving into a prior essense.

So I think that when I am talking about Daddy, I want you to really hear what Daddy is. Daddy is love - big strong love. It is a positive archetype. A form that a person can identify with and embody. If Daddy is too werid to think of, think of Quan Yin - a female representation of compassion. For me, Daddy is also Quan Yin - absolutely. He just has a big strong dick.

It is sign of sickness that in the west "paternal" is used so often in derogatory ways, while "maternal" is used so often in positive ways. Lets reclaim paternal to also be grouped in the same category as maternal - both parental and nurturing, in their different ways.

[jamman]

Jamman:

I believe that people with BPD and other severe emotional dysfunctions have them because of past abuse and trauma, and possibly because of a fragmented sense of self. I know that Westerners have these dysfunctions, but usually because of the same reasons. I think that there are a lot more undiagnosed emotional dysfunctions especially among women in developing countries, and especially Asia. So, when I said "and I wonder why", I really was wondering what happened to this woman in her past, that was most likely overlooked and smoothed over by the "perfect Asian woman" role. You denigrate or sneer at the changes that have happened in the West as we try to find our way toward a position where women have choices, but you have no problem embracing the 'perfect femininity" constructs that in large part probably contributed to her emotional scarring and illness.

Magnets attract the same materials of which they are made.

Ya, trauma was part of her past. All sorts of family dysfunctions, some more than merely disgusting, but illegal. And I agree that BPD and other personality disorders are likely more common in Asia.

I don't think the Asian women's role is perfect. But I do think that some western women, in wanting the freedom to choose their own role wind up imposing a role upon their mate. I used the vegetable chopping example not to mean that women should chop the vegetables. I meant it to mean that a man is happy with pizza, so if you move in with a man, and don't want pizza, chop your own ###### vegetables. He isn't oppressing you by his happiness with pizza and avoidance of vegetable chopping. Men share a set of vague and shifting characteristics that are vaguely and shiftily different than womens. We don't see the same size of dust particles, so we vacuum less. If you want a "clean" house to a woman's standards, then take on the extra cleaning that is your higher standard. In the west some women are hypersensitive about equality, to the point of wanting to enforce sameness. Men and women are not the same. So let the mother do most of the baby nurturing for the first two years. That is what mothers do. There are differences that can reflect in how the household is managed, and it doesn't have to be a micro managed big deal.

I think western women can be too touchy and sensitive about power issues also.

On the other hand, I much prefer the emotional and intellectual sophistication of western women.

I don't really disagree with what you are saying in this post, but the way you have worded this in other posts tells me that there are underlying contradictions. In order to properly care for one another, it helps to support and sustain one another. In the west, women work and many have very good jobs. If you belong to each other in a couple, that also means sometimes doing things that may please you less than it does your partner. If this is done equally (compromise), then you are working together, not oppressing one another. What is so wrong with sharing household activities if you both work? And if you fathered a child, why do you get to sleep while she is up in the middle of the night? You see, "daddy" doesn't look so benign to me now. You may be happy and wax philosophical about the wonderful understanding between women's roles and men, but I know for a fact that in the west this is also a major reason for marital stress and divorce.

Personally, I cannot say that I would lose total respect for a man who couldn't get up with me in the middle of the night, or change our baby's diapers, because I could never end up with such a man in the first place.

*sorry my editing is sloppy tonight

Ok, if both partners work, sure, then it wouldn't be fair for one to have to do extra housework.

In my historical case, I knocked up an older woman, and never wanted a baby. I was working during her pregnancy and the following few years, but she was not. I was still expected to share all the mundane chores, many of which I would never do were I living alone. So in order for her to not feel oppressed, she had to actually oppress me. That happened to me. It was obviously ######ed. It was a result of hypersensitivity to equality, and not being at all comfortable with different partners assuming different roles and tasks. She did not want to be in any female role, regardless that I was the one busy earning income.

And yes, it is all about supporting and sustaining one another. Since men and woman have different interests and desires and even needs, doing the same thing and the same thing for each other won't be mutually supportive. One will get more supported than the other.

And the wife has the titties. I didn't invent that. If I could breastfeed, I would. Wife has titties, wife breast feeds.

Edit *** And the bond between mother and child is much stronger in the first two years than between mother and father. Thus have I read and experienced. That is a biological fact. No one likes to change diapers, but women are way more into and interested in their babies than men are. Sure, men love their babies too - but there are qualitative differences, and I see no reason why these can't be acknowledged and reflected in social roles. Moms are more important in the first few years of a babies lives than Dads are.

Edited April 25, 2006 by jamman

[jamman]

soic @ 2006-04-25 19:17:03)

...They are less likely to be corraled in the kitchen by a sense of duty or obligation

You know, I don't think that you've actually read any of my posts.

Corralled!! Duty! Obligation!

Sorry, I am speechless. I feel totally unheard.