Why I’m worth it: in defense of the dowry

[abrahamzvi]

There's no believable defense of the practice.

The western custom is much closer to reality: the bride's family presents a dowry to the groom's family for providing them with a protector and source of livelihood for their daughter.

It's especially irksome that any family would expect a bride price when the daughter has already produced one or more children who will become the financial responsibility of the new husband. Thai men want nothing to do with such a situation, and the only taker is often a foreigner with a more generous attitude toward other people's children.

Sin sot deserves to die off as a cultural norm. It may have a traditional function among Thais, but makes no sense to those of us who aren't born to the culture. I certainly don't equate gifts of money with respect, and I doubt many Westerners do.

Although I understand to a certain degree the hesitation (or refusal) of a non Thai (european) man to pay a dowry, I resent the remarks made here, as they show utter disrespect to Thai culture. Let's face it - nobody is forced to live in Thailand, to marry a Thai girl, or retire here. Obviously there are parts of the Thai culture which are foreign, or even offensive to non Thais. We, non Thais, have to accept that some of our culture may be as strange and even offensive to Thais and make up our minds, do we or don't we, are we prepared, or aren't we, to accept Thai culture if we want to connect to Thailand or Thais. If we are not capable of doing so let us draw the consequences, instead of permanently offending the Thais and their culture.

I personally, have a Thai wife (for over 25 years) and two daughters, who were born in Europe, but we have been living here for over 10 years now. Both our daughters are over 20 and when my wife told me that she expects our future sons in law to pay a dowry, my immediate reaction was " I am NOT prepared to sell my daughters" ("we don't need it, and even if we did, I wouldn't do it"). After my wife explained the whole cultural background to me, I accepted this. The main part is that if the bridegroom in not prepared tp pay a dowry, he, according to Thai culture, does NOt respect either his bride nor her family. If one looks around the world, or even back to our own history, there are, or used to be, worse cultural customs than a dowry. One last thing. Although we Europeans are not used to pay our future parents in law, it is normal for us to buy Jewellery (diamond rings for the engagement, as an example) for our brides. So we also have our customs, which come close to a dowry, don't we?

An excellent response. I will marry my Thai lady soon and will pay a dowry and conform with Thai tradition and culture. The simple reason being her family is Thai and this is where we live. For those of you who don't like to conform with this culture, just don't marry a Thai and it might be better still if you don't live here if it upsets you so much. Oh just so you can really get your nuts in an uproar my bride is an ex bar girl!

That is very much your choice. If you want to go shopping for a wife that is your business, but many Western people including myself find the idea abhorrent.

I must say in all honesty that I FIND YOUR RESPONSE ABHORRENT. The Thai dowry is NOT a price for buying a wife, and even a slight reference to that disqualifies you from contact with Thais or from living in a culture which you consider abhorrent!

[o2eZy]

to get married in australia these days would cost maybe $20K

I got married to a thai girl 7 years ago in BKK paid the dowry with all the gold and new bank notes had the reception at grand hotel Sukhumvit 450 guests mother inlaw handed back the dowry we paid the hotel bill

never looked back cause is the best thing i've done

[Bpuumike]

There's no believable defense of the practice.

The western custom is much closer to reality: the bride's family presents a dowry to the groom's family for providing them with a protector and source of livelihood for their daughter.

It's especially irksome that any family would expect a bride price when the daughter has already produced one or more children who will become the financial responsibility of the new husband. Thai men want nothing to do with such a situation, and the only taker is often a foreigner with a more generous attitude toward other people's children.

Sin sot deserves to die off as a cultural norm. It may have a traditional function among Thais, but makes no sense to those of us who aren't born to the culture. I certainly don't equate gifts of money with respect, and I doubt many Westerners do.

Although I understand to a certain degree the hesitation (or refusal) of a non Thai (european) man to pay a dowry, I resent the remarks made here, as they show utter disrespect to Thai culture. Let's face it - nobody is forced to live in Thailand, to marry a Thai girl, or retire here. Obviously there are parts of the Thai culture which are foreign, or even offensive to non Thais. We, non Thais, have to accept that some of our culture may be as strange and even offensive to Thais and make up our minds, do we or don't we, are we prepared, or aren't we, to accept Thai culture if we want to connect to Thailand or Thais. If we are not capable of doing so let us draw the consequences, instead of permanently offending the Thais and their culture.

I personally, have a Thai wife (for over 25 years) and two daughters, who were born in Europe, but we have been living here for over 10 years now. Both our daughters are over 20 and when my wife told me that she expects our future sons in law to pay a dowry, my immediate reaction was " I am NOT prepared to sell my daughters" ("we don't need it, and even if we did, I wouldn't do it"). After my wife explained the whole cultural background to me, I accepted this. The main part is that if the bridegroom in not prepared tp pay a dowry, he, according to Thai culture, does NOt respect either his bride nor her family. If one looks around the world, or even back to our own history, there are, or used to be, worse cultural customs than a dowry. One last thing. Although we Europeans are not used to pay our future parents in law, it is normal for us to buy Jewellery (diamond rings for the engagement, as an example) for our brides. So we also have our customs, which come close to a dowry, don't we?

I think a major factor is 'face', especially in smaller village type communities rather than cities.

It's no big deal to put money on show for the big day and then have it returned.

My Thai mother-in-law is one of the sweetest people I have ever met and would never think of asking me for money.

[abrahamzvi]

Is it not tradition that the sin sod be returned to the groom following the wedding. Thought that it was just for show, showing face as is apparently important in Asian cultures

Of course in inter cultural marriages the rules often change.

This is exactly what happened after my Wedding to my Lovely Thai Wife. Parents not only returned all the money, but bought gold necklaces for us both and bangles (for her) as a good luck gift to us on our marriage. I am amazed at the amount of arrogant and conceited comments made by non-Thais regarding this cultural norm, just because they do not understand the issue (even although it has been more than adequately explained). It is part of an ancient custom steeped in Thai Tradition, as was in the West in days of yore. No doubt as time progresses customs like this will wither and die as has done in the so called "Developed Societies". In the mean time Folks (Men?) try to take your blinkers off and see and try to understand other cultures, not only Thai eitherTell me when people visit your home, do you expect them to learn from you, or rather adapt to your standards, or do you exoect to adpt to their standards. The same applies to countries and peoples. I like drinking wine, but I do not expect the Saudis to adapt to my habits. If and when I go there I don't drink wine in public. Full stop!!!

Shouldn't it work both ways? Shouldn't Thais try to understand our cultural norms?

[AnotherOneAmerican]

I must say in all honesty that I FIND YOUR RESPONSE ABHORRENT. The Thai dowry is NOT a price for buying a wife, and even a slight reference to that disqualifies you from contact with Thais or from living in a culture which you consider abhorrent!

You are wrong, you can often buy a Thai wife just on 'sin sot', never need to have met.

It really is easily done. The parents often don't care who you are, or what their daughter wants, if you have the money, you can have the daughter.

Especially true in the villages.

[Bpuumike]

I would be better off in India where the brides parents pay the groom to take her off there hands.

As said why would you pay money, sin sod for a woman that has children from a previous affair or marriage?

A woman in Chaing Mai told me that she expected 500,000 Baht Sin Sod, she was divorced with one child. She later married a Thai man, and I asked her how much he paid, I said I am sure that he did not pay 500,000 Baht, she replied to me that it did not matter how much he paid.

Like most things in Thailand one price for them and one for us.

I tell the women you will get Sin Sod when I die, in return for having cared for me. Take it or leave it.

The only problem with that is you're worth more to them dead than alive.

Oh no. Make it very clear.

[uty6543]

Just a crazy idea how about girls have a price tag like a car and a description

brand new = virgin

1 careful owner = previous married but no kids

I want to know am I looking at a Porsche or Sinclair C5

[jimbobs1]

I understand you are an educated woman but I cannot see the point in a dowry where a Falang is concerned

I've seen this outdated show of face and as an obstacle to genuine marriages

My brother in law paid the dowry he will now not have nothing to do with my wife's family,,he says he's paid his dues so *^ck them

I never paid it either,,my wife's mother and father life in our house, they are quite comfortable ,they dote on my 2 kids , we all live quite happily and it has never been a problem

My wife also refuses to have a village wedding,,life's ok as it is

IT MAY BE CULTURAL TO THAIS,,BUT IT'S NOT ALL ABOUT THE THAIS,

FELANGS HAVE CULTURE TO

[dudu]

I have a restaurant so i get some great stories, here's another one, a guy meets a girl at Nana plaza,but,she only just started and he was the first guy (right) he decided to take her out of there before she became like the rest..lol.. so he is with this girl from the back of Kon khean some where and they decide to get married, so back to the village, make the arrangement,he fixes up the house, buys a new toyota for the family...etc, one day before the wedding she says,take out 500,000 from the bank,just to show you paid dowry, you get it back after the wedding, so he does and he flies in relatives from all over Thailand, they get married, the monks come around and he pays the monks 20,000, anyway, the next day the celebrations continue, she says we have to make donation at the temple for the monks,he says, i did that yesterday and wheres the 500,000?, she turns and slaps him in the face in front of everyone and starts calling him names, kinoch being the preferred name, every one looking at him and getting up, this money for my family,they raise me,you have to pay, having now spent around 1.5million baht, he walked to his car and drove away,never to return, ended up teaching English at a school in Chiang mai.

[David48]

Shouldn't it work both ways? Shouldn't Thais try to understand our cultural norms?

Yep ... and a lot of it most likely comes down to if you decide to live together in Thailand or your country of birth.

In Thailand you probably have to bend a little more.

The other option, of course, is to stay single, then, as a man, you indeed can be an island. (not you personally lensta).

Mostly, I believe that you might discover that the majority of the posters on this thread are advocatring not to pay a Sinsot ... and the same posters who remain single and enjoy a life free of that obligation.

For myself, I'm in a relationship and the issue has been discussed and agreed that, when the time is right, it will be paid ... the quantum of which is not discussed yet.

However, that money will be earned and saved by both of us ... not just me ... and that has also been agreed to.

So, everyone's story is different, such is the variety of life living in Thailand.

.

[nontabury]

An excellent post oxo

There is not a singular Thai man in this country that would pay a single penny in Sin Sot for a Bar Girl that has been banged by a thousand farangs. The idea is ludicrous and disgraceful.

In every way, shape in form, on every interpretation of the culture of Sin Sot, she has disqualified herself in the eyes of the Thais. You can be assured that she knows it, her family knows it, and everyone in the village knows it.

So do yourself a favour. Adopt the Thai male attitude.

No doubt though these farangs boasting about paying Sin Sot for Bar Girls know better than Thai men eh? I don't think you guys have any idea how absurd you are.

When In Thailand, Do As Thais Do. Thai Men Do Not Pay Sin Sot For Prostitutes.

Is that clear enough for you now?

I have known of a few Thai marriages, where the sinsod is between 200,000. - 300,000 but, most of the money is then returned to the couple. Also know of two marriages between farangs and bar girls where amazingly the sin sod was 2,000,000 bhts, however those monies were never returned. Should that be amazing Thailand or Amazing Farangs?. As you say Thai men would never do that.

[benalibina]

A topic like this gets funny after a while. More interesting stories please !

[nontabury]

Just another excuse to rip off farlangs. First the family sell their daughters into prostitution and later they sell them to a farlang and call it marriage. There is no limit to the lack of morals by these families!!!!

This is the opinion of the farang sexpat/tourists who go to Pattaya/Phuket etc.. believe it or not Thailand has a very reserved culture when it comes to sex/boyfriends etc. to the point of not showing affection in public places as we might in the west. Try kissing a Thai girl in public.

I have spent a lot of time in issan and trust me the parents do not sell their daughters into prostitution, often the daughters are lured there by the money to be made. They might come back with money and even a farang husband. And the rest of their lives is spent subject to gossip in the village.Not a nice thing to do but people do what they do to survive.

Have seen some parents actually bringing their daughters down to the farang resorts, have even seen them sitting in the bar,at another table, in order to observe their beloved daughter going off with their first customer,

Later in some instances they get to receive a sin sod from their new farang so in law.

[bra]

An excellent response. I will marry my Thai lady soon and will pay a dowry and conform with Thai tradition and culture. The simple reason being her family is Thai and this is where we live. For those of you who don't like to conform with this culture, just don't marry a Thai and it might be better still if you don't live here if it upsets you so much. Oh just so you can really get your nuts in an uproar my bride is an ex bar girl!

Maybe you can get all her former clients to chip in as well--making it an even bigger pot of gold for her very needy parents.

I don’t mean to be impolite Bra, it’s just your assumptions’ about how we should all follow this tradition because we live here, or get out of Thailand, is so very arrogant. There are many other cultural practices around the world re brides, Clitoral mutilation is one that I suppose if the would be husband doesn’t believe in, he should taking your view remove himself from said country.

The Sin Sot practice is dying out because it is wrong---& If something is wrong or outdated--then change it, not just blindly accept it with reasoning like --I live here therefore I have to.

Just 2 points for you to ponder Bra 1/ Many good ladies are/were bar girls because of their financial situation, if your bride to be was in that category--one would think that she would be very grateful for you to be giving her a better life----rather than looking at you as the last big pay off.

2/ As you’re so into the cultural aspect of this then look at the meaning of the word sin-sot, everyone who has dealt with a bribe situation knows where the Sin part comes from....the Sot part is from Borrisot = a Virgin, That’s why it’s so laughable to Thai's who know this, that some ladies with children also try to get onto the band wagon, if they find that laughable, just imagine how hilarious they view your marrying a prostitute & paying a bag of money to the parents for her virginity.

Good luck with your coming marriage Bra—I have many friends in long term relationships and marriages, who have taken girls from bad bar situations – I have just never seen one where the girl was so grateful that she thought more should be paid for taking her out of it.

Well you may think my remarks were arrogant - but if you look carefully at what I wrote "For those of you who don't like to conform with this culture, just don't marry a Thai and it might be better still if you don't live here if it upsets you so much" I was not telling you what to do - just offering alternatives. To make matters clear neither my GF or her family asked for sin sot - I offered it (only a modest amount) in keeping with the culture as described by the original OP and to show respect. . I was not "buying" a wife - I consider her priceless in terms of money.

Like many of you I have lived and worked in many countries in Asia - most with different cultures and traditions. The easiest way to loose business and relationships in this region is to show disrespect and especially make someone loose face. On the other hand giving face can bring you many professional and personal rewards. I have attended Chinese weddings where everyone (including me) drinks to excess and Malay weddings where there is no alcohol at all - and enjoyed them all.

I have been called absurd, suggestions that I have my GF's former clients chip in (sorry but I find that remark beneath contempt), and many other remarks have been very strong in condemnation, but others have supported my post. But that's OK this is a forum and we are all entitled to have our say.

[AYJAYDEE]

sin sod is buying a woman it is against my beliefs and I will not do it. I have told the girl I am living with this so we are staying single. if I got pressured into giving sin sod I would walk away.

you wont have to. she will

[shaurene]

I won't pay a bar fine.

Never mind pay a dowry,for some bird that's been around the block a few times.

Single suits some.

But not all.

Sent from my GT-P7500 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Well you obviously do not understand the Thai ways. I married my lady and I gave 400,000 on the day, my wife's mother wanted to impress the village at the wedding, the next day my wife got the money back from her mother and gave it back to me.

I married one of the few.

We then got married at the government office to make it official from a village wedding which is a fars.

[ableguy]

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia:

A dowry is a process whereby parental property is distributed to a daughter at her marriage (i.e. inter vivos) rather than at the holder's death (mortis causa). A dowry establishes some variety of conjugal fund, the nature of which may vary widely. This fund ensures her support (or endowment) in widowhood and eventually goes to provide for her sons and daughters[/size].

Dowry contrasts with the related concepts called brideprice and dower. While brideprice is a payment by the groom or his family to the bride's parents, direct dowry is the wealth transferred from bride's family to groom and groom's family, ostensibly for the bride. Indirect dowry (or dower) is the property given to the bride herself by the groom at the time of marriage and which remains under her ownership and control.

A little semantic exercise. What the OP is referring to is brideprice. That makes it sound "different" to western ears.

Doesn't bring any value to the discussion, but what the hey.

What a crock any dowery to a Thai mom and dad from a farang is robbery, my gf went to work at 12 year old as a cleaner and all her wages went to mum and and dad, even now ( and she is no bar girl ) 60 % of everything I give her goes to her parents who are fit and well and work, my gf is 35 years old and has spent her life giving money to her parents who are not the smartest people on th block and seem to spend all there free time in coming up with schemes to extract money from me, screw them not a dime in dowery from me.

[Nayet]

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia:

A dowry is a process whereby parental property is distributed to a daughter at her marriage (i.e. inter vivos) rather than at the holder's death (mortis causa). A dowry establishes some variety of conjugal fund, the nature of which may vary widely. This fund ensures her support (or endowment) in widowhood and eventually goes to provide for her sons and daughters[/size].

Dowry contrasts with the related concepts called brideprice and dower. While brideprice is a payment by the groom or his family to the bride's parents, direct dowry is the wealth transferred from bride's family to groom and groom's family, ostensibly for the bride. Indirect dowry (or dower) is the property given to the bride herself by the groom at the time of marriage and which remains under her ownership and control.

A little semantic exercise. What the OP is referring to is brideprice. That makes it sound "different" to western ears.

Doesn't bring any value to the discussion, but what the hey.

What a crock any dowery to a Thai mom and dad from a farang is robbery, my gf went to work at 12 year old as a cleaner and all her wages went to mum and and dad, even now ( and she is no bar girl ) 60 % of everything I give her goes to her parents who are fit and well and work, my gf is 35 years old and has spent her life giving money to her parents who are not the smartest people on th block and seem to spend all there free time in coming up with schemes to extract money from me, screw them not a dime in dowery from me.

Would she leave you if your funds dried up? I'd be really uncomfortable supporting able-bodied adults, even if they were my girlfriend's parents.

[jsflynn603]

Thai culture goes back thousands of years.

American culture goes back a paltry 250 years--it's understandable how difficult it is for American's to accept and perhaps even embrace the concept of dowry. For Thai men, there is a sense of pride at being able to pay. Respect in Thailand historically has always been measured in wealth (historically in land). A wealthy man gains respect and status through generosity, and if Thai, or an enlightened foreigner embraces the concept, often the returns exceed the outlay.

Too, in America, as in my case as I'm engaged to a non-Thai woman, while there is no dowry, a platinum ring with an appropriate sized GIA certified D color diamond is, in reality, a sort of dowry that's appropriate to the woman and to my assets.

Were I to marry a Thai woman I'd be proud to be able to contribute a generous sin sot to her family.

[RigPig]

Thai men marry for gain, to the family (males). What is she "bringing to the table", influence, land..... later the children, hopefully male.

The Mia Noi is for, well you get it, and she is looked after by him then there's the kik, who I have seen give money to the guy (could never work that one out, but hey good if you can get it). Everyone knows this is going on but as long as it is not blatantly obvious, it didn't happen

Sin Sot would not be paid for a women with children or is known to have worked in a bar, I guess if you want the village laughing at you behind your back and smiling at your front.....

The last Thai wedding I went to the groom paid 20,000 B. The last Farang / Thai wedding I went to, "someone broke in and stole the money and gold" the same day as Mom flew back to Bangkok. It only went down hill from there, the best one was Mom' operation, the guy called the hospital and spoke to the doctor!!! You guessed it nothing wrong with her.

Their imagination and ingenuity knows no bounds, if only they could use their powers for good...

[SeabagsFull]

Nice article, Lite Beer. Very informative with a fresh dose of reality.

Another point worth making is that it really doesn't matter whether we agree with the idea of a dowry or not, at least not if we actually love our bride-to-be & care about her emotional happiness. I was fortunate to realize this in time. A Thai girl is born into a world in which she's culturally conditioned to look forward to that day when some young strong man will offer up a dowry for her. To deny your "soulmate" this is to rob her of her youthful dreams & thus her long-term emotional happiness; it is a day she will never forget.

Too many westerners believe on perhaps a subconscious level that they are defacto Crusaders who must "help" ignorant peoples develop, to reach their full potential so-to-speak. This is so sad, because Thailand & Thai culture are symbolic of an untouched fresh garden with a diversity of beautiful flowers in it. The Thai people have managed to remain pure-hearted & independent for a millenia, mainly by -- as my Thai friend says -- mimicking a tree's branches & bending with the wind (versus holding firm & breaking).

To: Dr. Robert #11, Abrahamzi #29, Bra #31, jeff2258 #51, & Jsflynn603 #110: well said.

To Impulse #37: thanks for the clarification. I would note, however, that "dowry" is an English word. No doubt that decades ago some young farang, perhaps an American GI, applied the word "dowry" & it has stuck since. The Thai word used is correct, regardless of the word we farang use; at least we both understand what is meant.

To Benalibina #16: "morals?" I've learned that Thai people don't fall for western programming, er "morals." Your personal code is just that, personal, & applies only to you. That's why, e.g., crew members of naval ships must go through a port brief before making a port call in each & every country visited. In one example, we learned not to point with our left (?) hand when in Bahrain as that was the hand the natives use to wipe their buts. Unless it is your intention to cause stress & uncomfortable awkwardness everywhere you go, I recommend you lighten up & go with the flow when you visit countries & cultures different from your own.

To Uty6543 #18: in practice, a dowry is only offered for a Thai girl's first marriage. Yes, there are abuses to this rule, especially where farang are involved.

To Lee B #24: "Result," indeed. You've succedded in shaming your wife's family, & you've forced your then fiancee to have to choose between perhaps financial stability (i.e., marrying you) & following her culture (long-term emotional happiness). She must have cared for you a lot. To put it another way, you -- a single human being -- have managed to cause disturbance in the lives of several other people, including your wife, her family, & her friends. Wow, what an accomplishment!

[marquis22]

I bet a Thai man marrying a Western woman doesn't give her a dowry. If a Thai woman marries a Western man, then two cultures are involved, and each culture should be respected. It seems that the OP doesn't even try to understand Western culture, but expects Western men to go along with Thai culture. No easy answers to this one, but I'm sure the practice will be gone in another generation. It's already started dying out. Despite what the OP says, many Thai families don't agree with this and don't do it. Many Thais I've talked to who have a more cosmopolitan outlook on life are slightly embarrassed that this still goes on in Thailand.

Try explaining to Thais how a farang family has to pay for the wedding of their daughters and not get any money from future son in law.

I've done that twice in farang land and now I am expected to put up 1 million baht in cash and get 900 k back and also pay for the wedding. We will still look after the parents (food and clothing etc) who live comfortably in their own house, as other siblings wont.

So I know where the 100 k will go .. mainly to the divorced sister who hasn't got an income stream.

My feet are a bit cold as it is still only early spring here, not sure if I will go get them warm in sunny Thailand next month or not??

[Somchai Mao]

Some farang really are mugs. Do you think a potless Thai barman will come up with a mill? Of course not. On top of this the farang will probably pay for the wedding, marquee, band, booze, food, collection of monks etc. Once married farang will subsidise the family for the duration of the marriage. If you get the rules right at the beginning you stand a fighting chance. Sin sod and then a present occasionally or the other way round. Either way in the majority of cases farang will end up skint eventually.

Sin sod is a Thai custom and has no place in farang culture. Some Thai families will estimate your wealth and resolve and will push both to the limit.

[F4UCorsair]

It's interesting, because the author makes quite a big deal of pointing out how westerners don't appreciate the culture with regard to wedding ceremonies and dowry. In fact, she makes light of the fact that all of her western male friends are uncomfortable with the subject of money trading hands in matters of the heart.

Did it not occur to her that that uniformly negative response was an indication of beliefs in our own culture? If 10 out of 10 men find this to be of questionable taste, doesn't it make sense that it must be a feature of a larger culture, rather than the individual's disrespect for the tradition?

It has absolutely nothing to do with disrespect for the culture, nor with the actual amount of money involved, I assure you. Many western men are simply uncomfortable with the idea of exchanging money for a woman that we respect. Symbolic or not. Let alone the idea that we owe a favor to the parents for a decision they made long before we ever came around.

Food for thought.

nah, not food for thought at all, you just miss the point entirely. just insensitive drivel dressed as smart ass commentary...because you can write relatively grammatically correctly, doesn't give the content any value.

While I appreciate the compliment, calling my personal, decently reasoned and, in your words, well-written opinion on the matter "drivel" without giving a single counterpoint is simply a flame.

My opinion was every bit as valid as the one made in the article above.

Enjoy your scatter shot anger.

I agree entirely Before Tigers!!

The way I see it is that if Thais expect a foreigner to cough up bulk $$ for their daughter, symbolic or otherwise, they have no respect for the foreigner's culture, very much as you said.

Seabagsfull said, "Another point worth making is that it really doesn't matter whether we agree with the idea of a dowry or not, at least not if we actually love our bride-to-be & care about her emotional happiness. I was fortunate to realize this in time. A Thai girl is born into a world in which she's culturally conditioned to look forward to that day when some young strong man will offer up a dowry for her. To deny your "soulmate" this is to rob her of her youthful dreams & thus her long-term emotional happiness; it is a day she will never forget.".

There is the reverse position, of course Seabags. If I was about to marry a Thai, the day I would never forget would be when she could put her culture behind her to respect mine, and not expect a bucket of $$ to go to her parents. If she had insisted on me paying, she'd be robbing me not only of my hard earned $$, but my emotional happiness!! I would want her to be marrying me because she wanted to be with me, not because I could put her parents on easy street.

If sin sod is mostly/purely symbolic, give a bundle of symbolic money, just to be sure. Imagine handing over a few hundred thousand baht expecting it to come back but it didn't!! Give a bundle of newspaper cut to the size of bank notes, and then no mistakes can be made.

[benalibina]

To Benalibina #16: "morals?" I've learned that Thai people don't fall for western programming, er "morals." Your personal code is just that, personal, & applies only to you. That's why, e.g., crew members of naval ships must go through a port brief before making a port call in each & every country visited. In one example, we learned not to point with our left (?) hand when in Bahrain as that was the hand the natives use to wipe their buts. Unless it is your intention to cause stress & uncomfortable awkwardness everywhere you go, I recommend you lighten up & go with the flow when you visit countries & cultures different from your own.

If 1 decides to live in another country, like i did, ofcourse 1 has to adapt in day to day public life. In private life however it is neccesarily not the same. It takes 2 to tango and to dance properly together give and take comes in place. I think it is fair to say that the majority of foreigners marrying, or living together, with thai women do not stay with thai women because of financial gain. They stay because of LOVE with the woman. Almost everybody knows that the majority of these women stay with said foreigners so they can initially provide them the basic and extra needs in life. Whatever is needed or desired is personal and differs. Familysupport is for sure 1. Money is King in thailand. So when it comes to morals, yes everybody's personal values or standards need to be understood by the other. Its BS that you state that they not fall for western, IMO more universal, morals. By your statement you support the ignorant and facekeeping people, thais in this subject. It is quite sad that you are coming up for people like that and make allowances for them. All thais know what is logic and good/bad. They initially may not want to admit, culture !! but when you communicate properly they do. Beyond saving face.

About sin sod; yes or no, UP TO YOU !!!!!

[ozyjon]

What a lot of shit,,, still there are many newbies who see (sinsot) for the first time and pay up,, get kicked out and off she goes to the next one,, if your lovely speaks any English at all be sure she will have many (falang) on her phone list, and if one doesn't pay enough off to the next one,, in my village there were many who made a living out of doing this and our house was a go - between for many girls using us as a translation service for their boys, who would send money on a regular basis so why get a job when so many boyfriends send you money every month,,tax free, what a great business and yes my friend did make a business out of it,, and still going at it today. Go fellas pay the sinsot cash and kiss it goodby.

[David48]

Their imagination and ingenuity knows no bounds, if only they could use their powers for good...

+1

Best line yet ...

Still lol ...

.

[SeabagsFull]

To F4UCorsair #115: You said "There is the reverse position, of course Seabags. If I was about to marry a Thai, the day I would never forget would be when she could put her culture behind her to respect mine, and not expect a bucket of $$ to go to her parents. If she had insisted on me paying, she'd be robbing me not only of my hard earned $$, but my emotional happiness!! I would want her to be marrying me because she wanted to be with me, not because I could put her parents on easy street."

Your Thai bride will want to please you & learn your culture. If you have brought her to you (e.g., on a fiancee visa) in another country, then she will be forced to adjust to your culture. This can be extremely depressing for a Thai lady, as many -- if not most -- end up returning home after a short while. If , however, you're staying in Thailand with her, then you absolutely must adjust to Thai culture & allow her to live within her culture among other Thai people. If you baricade her behind a large locked fence, as an Australian I knew once did to his wife, she will become a pariah, & in time she will leave you, taking everything she can with her. On another note, I can't say I've ever met a man -- in any country -- who was more concerned with his own feelings than his bride's when it came to his wedding day, except for several farang in Thailand who became distracted by the dowry thing. Try considering one crucial idea: it's not about you, it's about her.

To Benalibina # 116, I don't wish to get in a pissing contest with you. You're welcome to your morals, however widely accepted you believe they are; just don't try to hang your reality on me.

Regarding "... you support the ignorant and facekeeping people, thais in this subject. It is quite sad that you are coming up for people like that and make allowances for them. All thais know what is logic and good/bad," it sounds like you don't really like Thai people; so why the post? And who decides what's good & what's bad? Is this another one of your "universally" accepted things? Is it based on Christianity? Guess what, 97% of Thai are Buddhist & have different moral standards. I suspect you'd be a lot happier if stopped trying to judge Thai people & instead enjoy the ride. If you can't, perhaps it's time to leave.

[F4UCorsair]

Seabags Full, I see you're new on Thai Visa. I won't put you down for that, nor suggest that you shouldn't have an opinion, as some do. You don't have to 'earn your stripes' here, and are entitled to an opinion from your first post.

Your profile says you're in the USA, but sometimes profiles don't reflect the actual location, some preferring to give their home country.

Can you tell us a bit about yourself, living in Thailand, married to a Thai, the background for your knowledge and stated position?

[iamariva1957]

Though I understand everything that you have said in your post I have just one question... When is that the husband's culture comes into play? Paying a dowery is far from the culture today in any Western societies. It seems to me that the Thai side of the coin in only thinking about their wants, culture, and directions and not of the Farang's. This to me is unfair and ever so slightly bias, if not disrespectful to the other side of the coin.

We have the saying, "Something old, something new, something borrowed, something blue." But as far as paying money to a girl's family thanking them for bring her up so well is a mattrer of opinion. The amounts that I have heard (ranging from only 10,000bht all the way to 200,000bht) seems to suggest that maybe that girl was not broight up very well or extremely well. Putting a price on a hand in marriage should be based solely on love and affection and a desire to share one's live with that person and not on the amount of a dowery. It is not like buying a car!

Wether ir not the money is ever given back and putting aside a cultural tradition (which is far removed from the present day world) I find not only out of place, but also as if I am buying someone (something that we faught a civil war over in the US).For that kind of money it could be considered as a payment for a woman and so she had better do what I want her to. This I reject completely. That one reason why I am against the dowery system.

Fuirthermore, the Thai government applies rules to us Farangs with regards to marriage that no Thai has to comply with. We are told that we need 400,000bht in a Thai bank for 2 months and then a steady income monthly into the same account. But it seems that no Thai has to do anyof this.Why? Is this fare? Then there is the fact that we Farangs have no apparent rights of protection if something was to happen to the marriage (death or divorce). In those cases, which are all well documented, the Thai wife and her family gets everything.. no questions asked. They are free to act as they see fit to do. We Farangs just have to bend over and say thank you. Is this fare?

So I say, level the playing field. Welcome the 21st Century with open arms and put behind you the inequality that prevails. Give protection where it is needed and do away with, or at the very least modify cutural traditions so that they fit in the real world we now live in.

I do not have the funds to supply 100000bht or place 400000bht in an account for 2-months. But I do have the love in my heart and soul for the person I am with right now. It is time, therefore, for the girl and/or her family to come to grips with reality and understand that paying for one's bride does not make sence any longer... even if it is only for 'show'. For if it does not change, then why get married at all. My money works for me by being invested in products that pay me dividends. I make money from my money and that fact in a marriage makes far more sence for life, liberty, and happiness for all concerned.

We Falangs are not made of money. We might have more than the average Thai (though that is changing). But we are 'seen'as if we have limitless supplies of the stuff. It is a prejudicial!