Thailand's Education Minister Chaturon looks abroad for guidance

[kirk0233]

What a load of rubbish!!

The government should stop insisting that foreign teachers possess worthless degrees.

I was in the work permit office once when I see on the desk a piece of paper from Nevada university whereby they had qualiied in art!!! Please tell me, who is better qualified to teach real English out of this person or an English (person) who has been speaking the lingo for 55 years but does not have a useless degree, You decide!!

I will take the person with a degree, thank you.It is not about the "degree" itself but the structured practice that goes along with it. During ones post secondary education you develop structure, learning techniques, are subjected to various forms of assessments that are critical in teaching and disciplne.

So it is not that the other person is "educated" that qualifies them as a better teacher. It is the structure they have been exposed to that makes them better qualified. I have no doubt you could hold conversations with students and provide them with some skills they could eventually use. Teaching is about providing the foundation of life skills that requires both the introduction of knowledge but also how to correctly evaluate that knowledge.

So, no, the Government does not want to stop insisting foreign teachers have worthless degrees. There is no such thing. They should however start to insist that the degrees are in Education perhaps not in Art (as a major).

What you say is true but if you do not have the ability to impart the knowledge in such a way that is understandable to the pupil it is useless. Also you must be able to present it in a way that will keep the pupils attention. I have a friend who has A degree in English. She spends a lot of her time preparing lessons that will interest the students and keep there attention on the subject.

Some people this comes natural to others after 4 or 5 years of college in education will know every thing and yet lack the ability to impart the knowledge to the students. Also if they are students in a public school there is a very good chance many of them will tune you out because you can not make it interesting. With today's system the kid's know you will pass them and it wont make a difference. So once again I say it is more imperative to be able to impart your information and keep them interested than to just stand there and lecture.

I agree that a degree, in anything, can be useful in preparing someone with the organisational skills, literacy, etc necessary for teaching English. I also think, however, that it is not always necessary, and it is a shame to just disregard anyone without a degree.

I don't have a degree, but this wasn't a problem when I first started working for my school 10 years ago. Now, with 10 years of experience (and I've used those years to better my skills, too) I have been told by the local labour office that I can't get my work permit renewed. But a new graduate of engineering, or art, or any other subject unrelated to teaching or English, CAN get the permit.

I'm sure that a degree in teaching would do wonders to improve my abilities as a teacher, but I'm just as sure that a degree in anything else WOULDN'T make me a better teacher. So who would you hire - the engineering graduate, or me?

It doesn't matter who I would hire, Thailand is only hiring those with a degree. Having taught in Thailand myself, I am surprised you were able to do it for 10 years and want more of the same. I will be surprised if they find enough teachers with degrees with what is being paid. It is possible they will have to revert to accepting nondegree teachers again.

[Baerboxer]

You are missing something here, many Thais are moe educated than ppl in the west !

You're being sarcastic, right?

If you're referring to the very small % here in Thailand that have a "western" education, I'd still disagree with you, what with the fact that so many "degrees" are bought, the standards here are so low, and whatever they did learn goes out the window in 2 mins flat and they become very "Thai" once again. My 13 year old son is more "educated" in terms of actually "knowing" things and "using" what is learnt than most of those you refer to. Mind you, he's in Japan.

Can you provide evidence of all these degrees that are bought? Or is it another extension of the urban myth. There are many American companies offering all sorts of online qualifications which are easily purchased and pretty worthless. I saw one Indian executive claim to have a MBA and DBA from a non existent UK university - one registered in the Maldives.

University degree and post graduate degree standards "are low". Compared to whose?

The Thai school system is poor in that it allows too much variability and lacks good governance and rigour. However, many people in the UK wished for a return to teaching arithmetic times tables by rote. Many children in the UK cannot do mental arithmetic or work out multiplications without a calculator.

How do you know how your son would perform against well educated Thais? Your assertion that he is "more educated" is maybe a little bit parental biased and you flatter the Japanese education system.

Sounds like you got your education here too.

Least I got one! Shame you missed out !!

[Baerboxer]

The Thai education system is completely broken and wholly corrupt.

And no one cares.

Really. Whilst there are considerable issues, your view is somewhat extreme. My children's schools here are better than the very expensive British school they attended in the UAE. They certainly compare favourably with many UK equivalents that I know. Not perfect - but not completely crap either.

Please remind me never to send my kids to school in the uae. Is like claiming Thailand is richer than Laos so that represents progress. I have heard plenty of horror stories about private high level schools here.

The system is broken.

Yes - many education systems seem broke and paying high fees doesn't equate to quality. Finland and Korea seem to score well on independent assessments, and Italy does well on the formative years. Maybe looking at those countries would be a good start.

[Baerboxer]

@Tatsuin

Your are entitled to your opinions as we all are. Suggesting that purchasing university degrees here is common practice is just nonsense. I always thought it was innocent until proven guilty - you're the one making the accusations of fraud. Prove it. Do you think the Western countries are perfect? Hasn't there been cases of American universities awarding higher pass rates and grades to move up their league tables? And getting caught. Does that make all US degrees potentially fraudulent?

Check out the US High school graduation rates. Japan ain't been doing so great either. I know many US university professors - all complain that students are less and less capable when entering universities.

The universities here that I've been involved with have high standards and the academic content and rigour of the post graduate courses is certainly comparable with the Western and other Asian universities I've been associated with. Why do you think there are so many medical tourists coming to Thailand - because all the doctors and dentists either purchased or easily obtained worthless degrees in your view.

The ability to apply the information you have learned into action is knowledge. In this area I agree. It's not the lack of information or transfer of knowledge so much as the attitude. No one wants to take responsibility, be accountable or challenge the status quo. I see this time and time again. Clever people who just do not use their intelligence and knowledge. The drive is missing somehow. This is the real issue Thailand must face at all levels within the education arena.

[hellodolly]

What a load of rubbish!!

The government should stop insisting that foreign teachers possess worthless degrees.

I was in the work permit office once when I see on the desk a piece of paper from Nevada university whereby they had qualiied in art!!! Please tell me, who is better qualified to teach real English out of this person or an English (person) who has been speaking the lingo for 55 years but does not have a useless degree, You decide!!

I will take the person with a degree, thank you.It is not about the "degree" itself but the structured practice that goes along with it. During ones post secondary education you develop structure, learning techniques, are subjected to various forms of assessments that are critical in teaching and disciplne.

So it is not that the other person is "educated" that qualifies them as a better teacher. It is the structure they have been exposed to that makes them better qualified. I have no doubt you could hold conversations with students and provide them with some skills they could eventually use. Teaching is about providing the foundation of life skills that requires both the introduction of knowledge but also how to correctly evaluate that knowledge.

So, no, the Government does not want to stop insisting foreign teachers have worthless degrees. There is no such thing. They should however start to insist that the degrees are in Education perhaps not in Art (as a major).

What you say is true but if you do not have the ability to impart the knowledge in such a way that is understandable to the pupil it is useless. Also you must be able to present it in a way that will keep the pupils attention. I have a friend who has A degree in English. She spends a lot of her time preparing lessons that will interest the students and keep there attention on the subject.

Some people this comes natural to others after 4 or 5 years of college in education will know every thing and yet lack the ability to impart the knowledge to the students. Also if they are students in a public school there is a very good chance many of them will tune you out because you can not make it interesting. With today's system the kid's know you will pass them and it wont make a difference. So once again I say it is more imperative to be able to impart your information and keep them interested than to just stand there and lecture.

I agree that a degree, in anything, can be useful in preparing someone with the organisational skills, literacy, etc necessary for teaching English. I also think, however, that it is not always necessary, and it is a shame to just disregard anyone without a degree.

I don't have a degree, but this wasn't a problem when I first started working for my school 10 years ago. Now, with 10 years of experience (and I've used those years to better my skills, too) I have been told by the local labour office that I can't get my work permit renewed. But a new graduate of engineering, or art, or any other subject unrelated to teaching or English, CAN get the permit.

I'm sure that a degree in teaching would do wonders to improve my abilities as a teacher, but I'm just as sure that a degree in anything else WOULDN'T make me a better teacher. So who would you hire - the engineering graduate, or me?

Can you not take that course that allows you to teach here. I think it is some thing like TEFL well some one will correct me. I have a friend who took it and it was eminence help to her. She already had a degree in English so she didn't have to learn any of that.

What she had to learn was how to teach it to people and make it attractive even if they didn't want it. She said it was really hard to do. But it allowed the creative side of her to open up.

[Thai at Heart]

What a load of rubbish!!

The government should stop insisting that foreign teachers possess worthless degrees.

I was in the work permit office once when I see on the desk a piece of paper from Nevada university whereby they had qualiied in art!!! Please tell me, who is better qualified to teach real English out of this person or an English (person) who has been speaking the lingo for 55 years but does not have a useless degree, You decide!!

I will take the person with a degree, thank you.It is not about the "degree" itself but the structured practice that goes along with it. During ones post secondary education you develop structure, learning techniques, are subjected to various forms of assessments that are critical in teaching and disciplne.

So it is not that the other person is "educated" that qualifies them as a better teacher. It is the structure they have been exposed to that makes them better qualified. I have no doubt you could hold conversations with students and provide them with some skills they could eventually use. Teaching is about providing the foundation of life skills that requires both the introduction of knowledge but also how to correctly evaluate that knowledge.

So, no, the Government does not want to stop insisting foreign teachers have worthless degrees. There is no such thing. They should however start to insist that the degrees are in Education perhaps not in Art (as a major).

I would allow anyone who could prove they had studied a language to a decent level. You might not have a degree but if you have studied and completed high school French or German, that process would make it infinitely easier to explain and teach English as a foreign language.

The comment comes closest to hitting the mark.

Employers more often than not look for someone who has proved they have the acumen and the application to study for a degree regardless of the subject matter. Mine was in anthropology and by a tortuous route which included working in business training I eventually wound up in forex!

Of course a relevant degree is always an advantage but not essential. What is essential in teaching is the ability to structure lessons, know your subject (some Thais kids are surprising hot when it comes to grammar!) and most importantly be able to communicate. There are plenty of people who can 'speak the lingo' who after half a century still cannot do that effectively.

I consider someone who may have a good GCSE in English language, French, German or even Latin more than capable of teaching junior school English in Thailand. I got A`s in all and lo and behold taught myself more than passable Thai and mandarin and have two bilingual kids who have slipped into school in the UK after 10 years in Thailand and no one can spot that they haven't been schooled in the UK.

Having a degree if you haven't academically studied foreign languages won't help you to quickly become a decent language teacher. What would be more valuable, my economics degree or my language GCSEs in working out if I could be a capable English teacher?

Edited September 9, 2013 by Thai at Heart

[Thai at Heart]

What a load of rubbish!!

The government should stop insisting that foreign teachers possess worthless degrees.

I was in the work permit office once when I see on the desk a piece of paper from Nevada university whereby they had qualiied in art!!! Please tell me, who is better qualified to teach real English out of this person or an English (person) who has been speaking the lingo for 55 years but does not have a useless degree, You decide!!

I will take the person with a degree, thank you.It is not about the "degree" itself but the structured practice that goes along with it. During ones post secondary education you develop structure, learning techniques, are subjected to various forms of assessments that are critical in teaching and disciplne.

So it is not that the other person is "educated" that qualifies them as a better teacher. It is the structure they have been exposed to that makes them better qualified. I have no doubt you could hold conversations with students and provide them with some skills they could eventually use. Teaching is about providing the foundation of life skills that requires both the introduction of knowledge but also how to correctly evaluate that knowledge.

So, no, the Government does not want to stop insisting foreign teachers have worthless degrees. There is no such thing. They should however start to insist that the degrees are in Education perhaps not in Art (as a major).

I would allow anyone who could prove they had studied a language to a decent level. You might not have a degree but if you have studied and completed high school French or German, that process would make it infinitely easier to explain and teach English as a foreign language.

The comment comes closest to hitting the mark.

Employers more often than not look for someone who has proved they have the acumen and the application to study for a degree regardless of the subject matter. Mine was in anthropology and by a tortuous route which included working in business training I eventually wound up in forex!

Of course a relevant degree is always an advantage but not essential. What is essential in teaching is the ability to structure lessons, know your subject (some Thais kids are surprising hot when it comes to grammar!) and most importantly be able to communicate. There are plenty of people who can 'speak the lingo' who after half a century still cannot do that effectively.

I consider someone who may have a good GCSE in English language, French, German or even Latin more than capable of teaching junior school English in Thailand. I got A`s in all and lo and behold taught myself more than passable Thai and mandarin and have two bilingual kids who have slipped into school in the UK after 10 years in Thailand and no one can spot that they haven't been schooled in the UK.

Having a degree if you haven't academically studied foreign languages won't help you to quickly become a decent language teacher. What would be more valuable, my economics degree or my GCSE h in working out if I could be a capable English teacher?

[tominbkk]

As long as there are 50+ kids in a non aircon room and rote learning is the norm, nothing good will happen.

Rote learning when it comes to learning ones tables is not wrong, as a poster in their 70s all of my fellow school friends knew all of the tables every which way but since the rote system was thrown out I frequently see university students in England who cannot work out how much fare for 3 people @ 70 pence each and they are not alone.

Not all of the so called NEW systems are better than the old ways and a lot of the older people could leave the modern taught children for dead.

Of course there is a place for some rote learning activities, and I didn't say there wasn't. In certain math functions, in spelling and phonics, in some memorizing of important dates/people/places and in some scientific principles.

However, when rote learning is all that is done, there is little to no creativity or critical thinking going on. All rote learning in math, and no creative problem solving, all memorizing grammar points and no creative or argumentative writing, memorizing multiple choice answers for science and not learning how to utlizine the scientific method through self devised experiments, sole memorization of names/dates/people and not expressing one's opinions about history or society and how it has affected ones own life, this is what I am talking about.

When I said 'when rote learning is the norm', I wasn't totally throwing it out. But it cannot be the primary way to learn. Most Thai school rely heavily on rote learning. It is a matter of necessity. Creative learning and thinking is messy and individualistic and requires time and attention from the teacher. No way to do this with 50 kids in a room.

Edited September 10, 2013 by tominbkk

[tominbkk]

"Chaturon said he had learnt English as a student in Thailand for 16 years but had never had any real English conversation during that period."

Should get out more

I privately tutored many Middle and High School kids when I first arrived in Thailand. Most often I was the first person they ever had a 'real' conversation with in English. Nowadays most school provide some foreigners in the school for conversation classes. Back then not so much.

I did something similar in Ankara quite a few years ago. It was fun for all and quite entertaining which is the way school should be. Sadly I don't think we have anything like that out here in the "sticks" (Buriram).

Teaching children is as much about entertaining as it is about imparting relevant information. Degree or no degree if you can't entertain then the little darlings will quickly fall asleep/start playing on their ipads.

The best method is to find a way to 'be real' with the students. If possible, getting them to talk about their lives, interests, dreams is the best. Focus on positive things and get them to try and really communicate and share. Also, get them asking one another, as well as you as a teacher lots of questions. Teach them the art of having and building on a conversation.

As they work to communicate, support them with appropriate grammar, vocabulary, etc. Hard to do in big groups, but small groups of enthusiastic students (of all ages) will learn a lot from it! This is my experience anyway. I taught thousands of students in schools and hundreds in small groups or individually for many years. I've moved away from that pretty much, but really enjoyed it the most when I could make a connection with my students.

[Tatsujin]

@Tatsuin

Your are entitled to your opinions as we all are. Suggesting that purchasing university degrees here is common practice is just nonsense. I always thought it was innocent until proven guilty - you're the one making the accusations of fraud. Prove it. Do you think the Western countries are perfect? Hasn't there been cases of American universities awarding higher pass rates and grades to move up their league tables? And getting caught. Does that make all US degrees potentially fraudulent?

Check out the US High school graduation rates. Japan ain't been doing so great either. I know many US university professors - all complain that students are less and less capable when entering universities.

The universities here that I've been involved with have high standards and the academic content and rigour of the post graduate courses is certainly comparable with the Western and other Asian universities I've been associated with. Why do you think there are so many medical tourists coming to Thailand - because all the doctors and dentists either purchased or easily obtained worthless degrees in your view.

The ability to apply the information you have learned into action is knowledge. In this area I agree. It's not the lack of information or transfer of knowledge so much as the attitude. No one wants to take responsibility, be accountable or challenge the status quo. I see this time and time again. Clever people who just do not use their intelligence and knowledge. The drive is missing somehow. This is the real issue Thailand must face at all levels within the education arena.

So, (some) Thai's don't pay for their degrees with a nice donation from Daddy, regardless of their actual skills or lessons learned? Right, ok, if that's what you want to believe, you go right ahead.

I'll end with:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/666784-thai-universities-drop-several-points-in-latest-world-rankings/

Of the Thai universities who made the listing, two remain in the top 300.

Chulalongkorn University was ranked 239 in 2013, losing several places from its 201 rank in 2012; and Mahidol University getting 283 from 256 last year.

Says it all really.

[boomerangutang]

Guidance?

There comes a point where something is just not worth repairing or tinkering over, it needs to be replaced. Sod the railway, put the 2.2T into quality education and reap the rewards from it.

I agree to 'sod' (does that mean; 'nix'?) the speedo train - but why insist that sort of money should be spent for anything?! That's borrowed money, and how often have you known a Thai to pay back a loan? Instead of borrowing a shitload of money for dubious government projects, just spend within one's means. Plus everyone, from top to bottom rungs, acknowledges roughly 1/3 of all gov't expenditures go in to well-connected peoples' pockets. That's just accepted here. Mai pen rai, for Thais.

As for diplomas. Yes, obviously too much credence is given to those. Teachers should be assessed on their abilities and knowledge, and not on some certificate that may or may not be authentic. There are plenty of native-English speakers who would be vastly beneficial to Thailand - as English teachers/tudors, if given a chance. In contrast, there are a plethora of English teachers (with degrees) in Thailand who are doing more harm than good, in that dept.

[SICHONSTEVE]

What a load of rubbish!!

The government should stop insisting that foreign teachers possess worthless degrees.

I was in the work permit office once when I see on the desk a piece of paper from Nevada university whereby they had qualiied in art!!! Please tell me, who is better qualified to teach real English out of this person or an English (person) who has been speaking the lingo for 55 years but does not have a useless degree, You decide!!

I will take the person with a degree, thank you.It is not about the "degree" itself but the structured practice that goes along with it. During ones post secondary education you develop structure, learning techniques, are subjected to various forms of assessments that are critical in teaching and disciplne.

So it is not that the other person is "educated" that qualifies them as a better teacher. It is the structure they have been exposed to that makes them better qualified. I have no doubt you could hold conversations with students and provide them with some skills they could eventually use. Teaching is about providing the foundation of life skills that requires both the introduction of knowledge but also how to correctly evaluate that knowledge.

So, no, the Government does not want to stop insisting foreign teachers have worthless degrees. There is no such thing. They should however start to insist that the degrees are in Education perhaps not in Art (as a major).

You say that teaching is about "providing the foundation of life skills" - well tell me who is likely to have mastered these better

a) A 19 year old art degree holder who hasn't ventured outside of the university or , A 65 year old retired Englishman who has lived in Thailand for 10 years and understands Thai culture and the people and can probably speak Thai at least half decently who is prepared to pass his knowledge on to Thai children because he wants to benefit their lives rather than to earn enough money to go dossing around Thailand and drinking themselves into oblivion.

Say no more.......let me guess, you are the holder of one of these worthless pieces of paper that make you (for some unearthly reason) swell up with pride at your (non)achievement!!!

Edited September 10, 2013 by SICHONSTEVE

[Confuscious]

In my opinion, the MAIN problem of education in Thailand starts and end at the 'no fail" system.

When I send my daughter to the first grade, she was eager to learn and was asking questions about everything she saw.

"Daddy, why is it so cold in your country and so hot in Thailand?"; "Daddy, how/what/where ....."

She got on her first mid-term test 47/50 points.

A very good score.

Her best friend was a boy who skipped school 2 days out of 5, never made homework or finished a project, never listened to the teachers, etc.

His score at the mid-term test was 20/50.

No teacher dared to make him fail as that would put their job at a stake.

A week after the test the REAL scores where published.

My child had 75/100 and the boy had also 75/100!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

At a teacher/parent meeting a week after the test I asked the school master how that score was possible.

The explanation was that the final score was made out of 2 parts.

One part was the score of the test which counted for 50% and the other 50% was given by her based on several points.

In the following years, my child loosed the will to learn because of that system.

Her reasoning was that if she studied or not would make no real difference on the end result.

The major drawback of that system is that children with learning problems are allowed to move on to the next grade.

In Prathom 1 there are maybe 5 students out of 30 who are not capable to learn the subjects of a Prathom 2, but pass anyway.

In Prathom 2 the students who are not capable to pass to Parthom 3 will increase and the teachers will be forced to repeat in Prathom 2 the subjects from Prathom 1.

At the end of Prathom, the school will create about 70% of the students who are a complete failure and have learned subjects from Prathom 1.

But the will get all a certificate to pass to Mattayom.

No need to look abroad for guidance on Education.

Start with abolishing the "No Fail" system.

But I guess that many parents will be not happy with that.

[Confuscious]

You are missing something here, many Thais are moe educated than ppl in the west !

You're being sarcastic, right?

If you're referring to the very small % here in Thailand that have a "western" education, I'd still disagree with you, what with the fact that so many "degrees" are bought, the standards here are so low, and whatever they did learn goes out the window in 2 mins flat and they become very "Thai" once again. My 13 year old son is more "educated" in terms of actually "knowing" things and "using" what is learnt than most of those you refer to. Mind you, he's in Japan.

Can you provide evidence of all these degrees that are bought? Or is it another extension of the urban myth. There are many American companies offering all sorts of online qualifications which are easily purchased and pretty worthless. I saw one Indian executive claim to have a MBA and DBA from a non existent UK university - one registered in the Maldives.

University degree and post graduate degree standards "are low". Compared to whose?

The Thai school system is poor in that it allows too much variability and lacks good governance and rigour. However, many people in the UK wished for a return to teaching arithmetic times tables by rote. Many children in the UK cannot do mental arithmetic or work out multiplications without a calculator.

How do you know how your son would perform against well educated Thais? Your assertion that he is "more educated" is maybe a little bit parental biased and you flatter the Japanese education system.

A few years ago, the school where my child is learning came up with the "Cambridge Certificates of English Language".

Children whose parents wanted to have a "Cambridge Certificate of English Language" would need to pay about 5,000 Baht.

All the parents where encouraged to let their children follow the "Cambridge Certificate of English Language" program.

The children would then be given a short study of the English language on Saturdays (by a Filipino who can barely hold a conversation in English) and at the end of the study they would get a "Cambridge Certificate of English Language".

I tried to have a basic conversation in English with children who obtained a "Cambridge" degree and was very disappointed.

The answer from the school and the parents was that nobody cares about the REAL knowledge of English.

The important thing was that the children had a certificate for English and a PICTURE of the school director handing over the certificate.

http://swis-acn.acn.ac.th/html_edu/cgi-bin/acn/main_php/print_dept.php?id_dept=457

Edited September 12, 2013 by Confuscious