Germans air views on green energy, water management: Bangkok

[webfact]

Germans air views on green energy, water management
PRAVIT ROJANAPHRUK
The Nation

BANGKOK: -- GERMAN EXPERTS on green energy and a low-carbon economy have held two days of talks with their Thai counterparts in a bid to promote closer bilateral cooperation in the field.

Issues discussed in the meeting covered solar and wind energy, the private-sector role in waste management, and flood prevention.

German team leader Karsten Sach, deputy director-general for European and international environment policy, said Germany was well equipped to assist and cooperate with Thailand in these areas.

On flood-prevention strategies, Sach said Germany had wide experience in designing such strategies and was well suited to handle technical components and the whole package - including how to build a climate-resistant city, which entails zoning laws, infrastructure and accurate flood forecasting.

"We're confident that we have good advice to offer," said Sach, who met with senior Thai bureaucrats from the Ministry of Natural Resources and Environment.

Germany, Sach insisted, was not competing with The Netherlands or Japan and other nations in offering assistance and cooperation. Nevertheless, Sach said: "I think it's important that Thailand develops a strategy [to prevent flooding]."

Solar and wind energy are also areas where Sach said Germany was well placed to assist Thailand in making a transition to alternative power sources. Currently, 70 per cent of Thai energy sourcing comes from natural gas and the cost is substantial, said Sach, who met with his Thai counterpart at the Pullman Bangkok King Power Hotel on Wednesday and yesterday.

The cost of producing electricity and energy from wind and solar power sources has gone down significantly over the years, he said, and 1.3 million Germans now generate green energy from the two sources. "Renewable energy is a way of solving some of the huge challenges… We are frontrunners in getting not just the technology but societal learning to win people to be part of the solution. That's what we're discussing here."

Sach said Germany was phasing out its nine existing nuclear plants, although he suspects Thailand is still keeping the door open for possible production of nuclear energy. Nuclear energy, warned Sach, is too costly in terms of getting rid of its waste, and too risky. "We didn't discuss anything on nuclear [with our Thai counterparts]," said Sach.

Germany will decommission all its nuclear plants by 2022.


-- The Nation 2013-09-13

[nosatisfaction]

Get Sony,Make believe,

555555555

[khrab]

Oh. He forgot to tell that Thailand needs a "EEG" surplus on the electric price. In Germany it is now to pass 5Ct./KWh.

EEG: A tax on energy prices to finance all this "alternative" b/s.

[Thai at Heart]

The Germans didn't bid on any of the flood stuff did they?

[ggold]

probably weren't prepared to offer any bribes for contracts!

[Joe Mamma]

Those German green and high tech companies know their stuff. I hope the Thai scientists are all ears and the govt. cooperates with the experts concepts..

[h90]

Oh. He forgot to tell that Thailand needs a "EEG" surplus on the electric price. In Germany it is now to pass 5Ct./KWh.

EEG: A tax on energy prices to finance all this "alternative" b/s.

Germany is a good example on how it can not be done......

Thailand would have some great advantages.....no winter.

Most electric is used when there is most sun because everyone turns on the aircons.

A lot of the solar energy costs are the expensive labor costs which is cheap in Thailand.

So solar panels for either hot water or electric would make 1000 % more sense in Thailand than in Germany.

But some basic insulation and the right service of the Aircons would cost much less and bring much more.

Even easier would be to reduce take out half the lights on the thousands of km of street lights on the highway.

To do that you don't need Germans, or high tech.

[zydeco]

German culture and Thai culture do NOT mix.

[RickBradford]

Since Germany has created a massive energy shambles at home with its fatuous renewables plans, they have to f ind gullible partners elsewhere to listen to their nonsense.

As Der Spiegel notes:

If there is too much power coming from the grid, wind turbines have to be shut down. Nevertheless, consumers are still paying for the "phantom electricity" the turbines are theoretically generating. Occasionally, Germany has to pay fees to dump already subsidized green energy, creating what experts refer to as "negative electricity prices."

On the other hand, when the wind suddenly stops blowing, and in particular during the cold season, supply becomes scarce. That's when heavy oil and coal power plants have to be fired up to close the gap, which is why Germany's energy producers in 2012 actually released more climate-damaging carbon dioxide into the atmosphere than in 2011.

No wonder, then, that in Europe's richest big economy, 800,000 households cannot afford to pay their fuel bills.

Just what Thailand doesn't need.

[h90]

German culture and Thai culture do NOT mix.

Come on.....It mixes very well....In the company I worked before the Thais were corrupt and the Austrians (which are basically the same as Germans) brought a perfect system into the corruption. They worked hand in hand and shared fairly. A perfect example how different cultures can work together and enhance themselfs with this cooperation.

[h90]

Since Germany has created a massive energy shambles at home with its fatuous renewables plans, they have to f ind gullible partners elsewhere to listen to their nonsense.

As Der Spiegel notes:

If there is too much power coming from the grid, wind turbines have to be shut down. Nevertheless, consumers are still paying for the "phantom electricity" the turbines are theoretically generating. Occasionally, Germany has to pay fees to dump already subsidized green energy, creating what experts refer to as "negative electricity prices."

On the other hand, when the wind suddenly stops blowing, and in particular during the cold season, supply becomes scarce. That's when heavy oil and coal power plants have to be fired up to close the gap, which is why Germany's energy producers in 2012 actually released more climate-damaging carbon dioxide into the atmosphere than in 2011.

No wonder, then, that in Europe's richest big economy, 800,000 households cannot afford to pay their fuel bills.

Just what Thailand doesn't need.

Well not all is true....Much comes from the fact that they want to run the baseline coal and nuclear power plants on a steady 100 % load and don't want to regulate them. The wind doesn't stop without warning from one minute to the other, so they could do some regulation there.

They took some nuclear power plants off the network and don't built new one which results in more coal usage.

And of course Jan, Feb. isn't much wind and no sun. At the same time more electric is needed. You can only help with normal power generating.

[Thai at Heart]

Oh. He forgot to tell that Thailand needs a "EEG" surplus on the electric price. In Germany it is now to pass 5Ct./KWh.

EEG: A tax on energy prices to finance all this "alternative" b/s.

Germany is a good example on how it can not be done......

Thailand would have some great advantages.....no winter.

Most electric is used when there is most sun because everyone turns on the aircons.

A lot of the solar energy costs are the expensive labor costs which is cheap in Thailand.

So solar panels for either hot water or electric would make 1000 % more sense in Thailand than in Germany.

But some basic insulation and the right service of the Aircons would cost much less and bring much more.

Even easier would be to reduce take out half the lights on the thousands of km of street lights on the highway.

To do that you don't need Germans, or high tech.

It was all going swimmingly until you mentioned taking the lights off the streets or highways? The things are dangerous enough as it is. Not as though you can't use little solar systems to run the lights though. A better way.

Thailand needs insulation on new buildings and better design to keep the indoor temperatures under control for AC. Just reducing a few degrees C can save a household fortunes in its power requirements.

[Thai at Heart]

Since Germany has created a massive energy shambles at home with its fatuous renewables plans, they have to f ind gullible partners elsewhere to listen to their nonsense.

As Der Spiegel notes:

If there is too much power coming from the grid, wind turbines have to be shut down. Nevertheless, consumers are still paying for the "phantom electricity" the turbines are theoretically generating. Occasionally, Germany has to pay fees to dump already subsidized green energy, creating what experts refer to as "negative electricity prices."

On the other hand, when the wind suddenly stops blowing, and in particular during the cold season, supply becomes scarce. That's when heavy oil and coal power plants have to be fired up to close the gap, which is why Germany's energy producers in 2012 actually released more climate-damaging carbon dioxide into the atmosphere than in 2011.

No wonder, then, that in Europe's richest big economy, 800,000 households cannot afford to pay their fuel bills.

Just what Thailand doesn't need.

Well not all is true....Much comes from the fact that they want to run the baseline coal and nuclear power plants on a steady 100 % load and don't want to regulate them. The wind doesn't stop without warning from one minute to the other, so they could do some regulation there.

They took some nuclear power plants off the network and don't built new one which results in more coal usage.

And of course Jan, Feb. isn't much wind and no sun. At the same time more electric is needed. You can only help with normal power generating.

Playing from the load from coal is very difficult. it has to run, or is massively inefficient. Indeed the Germans have become the poster boys for how not to set up a wind, solar, traditional set up. It doesn't work..

[RickBradford]

Wind subsidies threaten German de-industrialisation

Die Welt:

When Germany’s power grid operator announced the exact amount of next year’s green energy levy on Monday, it came as a shock to the country. The cost burden for consumers and industry have reached a “barely tolerable level that threatens the de-industrialization of Germany”, outraged business organisations said.

Since then politicians, business representatives and green energy supporters have been arguing about who is to blame for the “electricity price hammer”. After all, did not Chancellor Angela Merkel (CDU) promise that green energy subsidies would not be more than 3.6 cents per kilowatt hour?

Now, however, German citizens have to support renewable energy by more than EUR 20 billion

A textbook case on how to bring Europe's most powerful economy to its knees for the sake of pursuing feel-good Green fantasies

[RickBradford]

The Telegraph reports today:

Germany is committing slow economic suicide. It has staked its future on heavy industry and manufacturing, yet has no energy policy to back this up.

Instead, the country has a ruinously expensive green dream, priced at €700bn from now until the late 2030s by environment minister Peter Altmaier if costs are slashed - and €1 trillion (1 thousand billion ) if they are not.

The Germans are surely the most romantic nation on earth.

[little mary sunshine]

German Clean Air....going Green........with the four in my apt complex a

little deodorant would go a long way to making our complex's air smell

cleaner................

[h90]

Oh. He forgot to tell that Thailand needs a "EEG" surplus on the electric price. In Germany it is now to pass 5Ct./KWh.

EEG: A tax on energy prices to finance all this "alternative" b/s.

Germany is a good example on how it can not be done......

Thailand would have some great advantages.....no winter.

Most electric is used when there is most sun because everyone turns on the aircons.

A lot of the solar energy costs are the expensive labor costs which is cheap in Thailand.

So solar panels for either hot water or electric would make 1000 % more sense in Thailand than in Germany.

But some basic insulation and the right service of the Aircons would cost much less and bring much more.

Even easier would be to reduce take out half the lights on the thousands of km of street lights on the highway.

To do that you don't need Germans, or high tech.

It was all going swimmingly until you mentioned taking the lights off the streets or highways? The things are dangerous enough as it is. Not as though you can't use little solar systems to run the lights though. A better way.

Thailand needs insulation on new buildings and better design to keep the indoor temperatures under control for AC. Just reducing a few degrees C can save a household fortunes in its power requirements.

I am not sure which road it was, but I think it was Bangkok to Pattaya. It was bright like day, with all the Sodium-Steam Lamps. Each lamp a 400 or 800 Watt.

No way you can do that with solar....but of course you could change them to LEDs.

Beside the highways aren't dangerous because of the lack of light, they are dangerous because some idiot drives in the night with 200.

[h90]

Since Germany has created a massive energy shambles at home with its fatuous renewables plans, they have to f ind gullible partners elsewhere to listen to their nonsense.

As Der Spiegel notes:

If there is too much power coming from the grid, wind turbines have to be shut down. Nevertheless, consumers are still paying for the "phantom electricity" the turbines are theoretically generating. Occasionally, Germany has to pay fees to dump already subsidized green energy, creating what experts refer to as "negative electricity prices."

On the other hand, when the wind suddenly stops blowing, and in particular during the cold season, supply becomes scarce. That's when heavy oil and coal power plants have to be fired up to close the gap, which is why Germany's energy producers in 2012 actually released more climate-damaging carbon dioxide into the atmosphere than in 2011.

No wonder, then, that in Europe's richest big economy, 800,000 households cannot afford to pay their fuel bills.

Just what Thailand doesn't need.

Well not all is true....Much comes from the fact that they want to run the baseline coal and nuclear power plants on a steady 100 % load and don't want to regulate them. The wind doesn't stop without warning from one minute to the other, so they could do some regulation there.

They took some nuclear power plants off the network and don't built new one which results in more coal usage.

And of course Jan, Feb. isn't much wind and no sun. At the same time more electric is needed. You can only help with normal power generating.

Playing from the load from coal is very difficult. it has to run, or is massively inefficient. Indeed the Germans have become the poster boys for how not to set up a wind, solar, traditional set up. It doesn't work..

If you run it at 90 % you loose only a little of efficiency (but of course you loose a lot if you consider the investment and fixed costs) and you could increase the output relative fast to 100 % (considering that wind doesn't stop within 1 minute). Considering that their computer system is ready to do it. Instead they run 9 of 10 power plants at 100 % and shut down one. Which is much more cost efficient over the year, even if they have a negative price a few minutes.

Also I don't see anyone try to build coal or nuclear plants that can react faster.

It is a war of green energy fanatics against the conventional energy dinosaurs.

The fanatics want impossible things and the dinosaurs don't want to do the possible things.

In Thailand it would only need foam boards and common sense to reduce usage 10%.

[alanferdi]

German culture and Thai culture do NOT mix.

Yes Germans think in straight lines, Thais think in circles and how to repeat

[h90]

German culture and Thai culture do NOT mix.

Yes Germans think in straight lines, Thais think in circles and how to repeat

And both ethics are exact clones.

Every Thai is like this.

Every German is like that.

There are no differences...all Germans are exactly the same. All Thais are exactly the same.

[shunima]

The Telegraph reports today:

Germany is committing slow economic suicide. It has staked its future on heavy industry and manufacturing, yet has no energy policy to back this up.

Instead, the country has a ruinously expensive green dream, priced at €700bn from now until the late 2030s by environment minister Peter Altmaier if costs are slashed - and €1 trillion (1 thousand billion ) if they are not.

The Germans are surely the most romantic nation on earth.

Well... if 'The Telegraph' reports it, it must be true. Now I understand why the British economy is thriving and the German economy not. These Germans, never have a plan.

[Baerboxer]

The Telegraph reports today:

Germany is committing slow economic suicide. It has staked its future on heavy industry and manufacturing, yet has no energy policy to back this up.

Instead, the country has a ruinously expensive green dream, priced at €700bn from now until the late 2030s by environment minister Peter Altmaier if costs are slashed - and €1 trillion (1 thousand billion ) if they are not.

The Germans are surely the most romantic nation on earth.

Well... if 'The Telegraph' reports it, it must be true. Now I understand why the British economy is thriving and the German economy not. These Germans, never have a plan.

Britain also has issues with generating enough electricity to meet demand over the next few years. That's why Britain is trying to rapidly increase nuclear generating capacity. However, this topic is about Germany and their knowledge, or lack of, in renewable energy and water management.

There are many issues in Germany. Sure the economy looks strong because they have protected their manufacturing industry, put a lot of effort into exporting and the home market looks to buy homemade goods first. But energy is a major issues, and most states have resisted complying with EU deregulation directives.

German has also been prohibited from having a strong military capability and so does not spend massively on defence or involvement in he more recent UN/Nato military actions.

They are not the worlds best authority on either renewable energy or flood management by any means. Try researching in the German press. Plenty of material for you there.

Edited September 14, 2013 by Baerboxer

[bunnaag]

German culture and Thai culture do NOT mix.

Come on.....It mixes very well....In the company I worked before the Thais were corrupt and the Austrians (which are basically the same as Germans) brought a perfect system into the corruption. They worked hand in hand and shared fairly. A perfect example how different cultures can work together and enhance themselfs with this cooperation.

h 90 since when are you of the opinion that the Austrians are basically the same as the Germans? Did you ever visit the northern part of Germany?