Mun

[Johnniey]

I am staying in a five star hotel for a few days and was shocked when arriving.

I can speak Thai but chose to speak English at reception.

My American express credit card didn't work and the manager got involved. I offered other cards.

The receptionist referred to me as 'mun'.

Mun baw laew. I ignored this but then the bloody manager used the same pronoun.

Mun mee gad eek .

How rude is this. I am seriously thinking of complaining. I want to check with experts first. Are there any curcumstances where they could be inoffensive using this pronoun.

I think asking for a discount for being insulted is not out of order.

Btw, I was dressed in a suit and tie.

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Edited September 13, 2013 by Johnniey

[Neeranam]

I used to work as trainer at the Shangri la Hotel in Bangkok. I'd frequently stand at the front desk listening to conversations between staff and guests. If I had ever heard a staff member use this word to a guest, I'd have gone straight to the manager. You say the manager said it also? You'd have to complain to someone higher up.

I would have said something there and then and have done in the past when I've heard มัน being used.

Mai mee marayaat.

[Johnniey]

I used to work as trainer at the Shangri la Hotel in Bangkok. I'd frequently stand at the front desk listening to conversations between staff and guests. If I had ever heard a staff member use this word to a guest, I'd have gone straight to the manager. You say the manager said it also? You'd have to complain to someone higher up.

I would have said something there and then and have done in the past when I've heard มัน being used.

Mai mee marayaat.

As I thought, thanks.

I have heard mun used only for animals, things and occasionally close family members, especially young children.

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[Mole]

This word should never me used in these settings. It's a very derogative word.

Are you sure this is the hotel manager? If not, then I recommend you to contact the the person in highest position and complain.

Just let them know that you do understand Thai so that they'll have no excuse whatsoever.

I am shocked that it's used here, even though they assumed you didn't understand Thai, it should nevertheless never been used ever when talking about guests.

I would have been seriously pissed if I heard them use that word in front of me like that.

Even if they used that word when you're not around, if I was the manager and heard my staff using that word about a guest, I would have called in a disciplinary meeting and tell them never ever use that word.

Other guests may still overhear what they say and it's a very bad image if people hear how staff are talking about guests in a derogative manner like that.

Edited September 13, 2013 by Mole

[tgeezer]

I find it difficult to believe that staff would refer to a guest as 'it'. what are they saying about 'it'? I can't understand the phonetics can you translate?

[Mole]

I presume "Mun baw laew" means มันบอกแล้ว and "Mun mee gad eek" มันมีการ์ดอีก

My first thought was that surely he must have heard wrong. But if what he says is really the case, this can't be mistaken for something else.

Out of the context, I'm pretty sure he must have heard what they said right.

[Tim207]

I would be pissed but I think you were right not to say anything at the time. Make note of those who said this and later ask to see the manager about a problem you have with the hotel and only use English. If you are referred to one of the offenders tell them that you need to speak with the big boss. Do not let the offenders have any chance of figuring out why you want to speak to the boss so they have no chance of planning a plausible explanation or do any damage control. If you are sure of what you heard, any competent manager should be grateful that you brought this to their attention.

[mooris7]

This word means (it). It means you dont like that person. There is no misunderstanding on this fact!

[manarak]

Mun is commonly used in the north - certainly a bit colloquial but not meant as an insult.

If the staff were central Thai, a complaint to management is in order.

If you want the staff to get red-faced and to hide behind the counter, you can ask "marayaat pai nai?"

[mooris7]

Mun is commonly used in the north - certainly a bit colloquial but not meant as an insult.

If the staff were central Thai, a complaint to management is in order.

If you want the staff to get red-faced and to hide behind the counter, you can ask "marayaat pai nai?"

You are dead wrong! As per many of my thai friends it is an insult from the north south east or west is an insult!

[Roel]

Especially the posts of meadish_sweetball might interest the OP and mooris7:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/254263-man-as-a-pronoun-how-disrespectful-is-it/

[Gsxrnz]

I understand that mun can be used very informally amongst close friends and is a form of joking. We might say to a close friend, "hey f**kwit, your turn to buy the beer". I've heard mun used that way, but only in a joking abusive type manner in a closed environment.

As to the OP - I suggest you put yourself in the same position again where they use mun to talk about you, and then give them a polite broadside in Thai that should make them internally cringe and offer a million apologies and wai's.

Complaining after the fact is a waste of time and will give you no satisfaction whatsoever, it's much more fun to chastise them in Thai and watch their world crumble.

Edited September 14, 2013 by Gsxrnz

[mooris7]

Especially the posts of meadish_sweetball might interest the OP and mooris7:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/254263-man-as-a-pronoun-how-disrespectful-is-it/

Any derogatory word can be used in the form of sarcasm with close friends! This is not the same. We are talking about hotel staff and a customer!

[Johnniey]

Thanks for the replies.

I do know it is rude, but was just checking.

Interesting that it's disrespectful to call the king's dog, mun.

I'm not going to complain but when I checkout am going to embarass them.

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[Roel]

Especially the posts of meadish_sweetball might interest the OP and mooris7:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/254263-man-as-a-pronoun-how-disrespectful-is-it/

Any derogatory word can be used in the form of sarcasm with close friends! This is not the same. We are talking about hotel staff and a customer!

You obviously did not read through the whole link.

Most farangs will agree that mun is a 'bad' word and it should not be used. This is because all teachers and text books say so. And they are correct. But the meaning and use of mun might be different to native speakers. Text book and teachers in general avoid to go into the exceptions, finesses and nuances of the use. Discourse context, sociolinguistic aspects and dialect variety is here beyond the scope of the tutors. And even your Thai friends -although native speakers- might not be aware of the finesses or at least not be able to explain them to you. So they will just confirm that mun is bad and not to be used.

With thanks to poster meadish_sweetball who says this:

I was taught not to use มัน as a personal pronoun when I studied, and I stick to that - my philosophy is that as a foreigner and second language learner it's better to err on the side of politeness, especially here in Thailand where as a foreigner you are often held to a different standard.

And:

I don't think we should make a literal translation of มัน to 'it' and then proceed to interpret the issue as if somebody had referred to you as 'it' in English because the usage and connotations are not the same.

I hear Thais I know, mainly from Chiang Mai, using มัน to refer to third persons in casual conversation with people they are close to, and/or who are of the same age.

It is not a respectful manner of reference, but from what I have observed, it does not necessarily seem to be a strong marker of disrespect either.

My wife, and her brother, sister and cousins use it about each other (but not as a substitute for a second person pronoun i.e. not like 'you' in English - just when relating a story about person B to person C, where 'man' would be equivalent to 'him/her'). It's quite clear from the context that they don't look upon each other as animals or inanimate objects, or use this pronoun out of a clear intention to show disrespect.

It just seems like a sloppy or casual way of referring to somebody in the third person.

So based on my experience, you could classify it as a bad habit word perhaps, but not something to be as upset about as you might be if somebody talked about you as 'it' in English.

The bold is mine and having spend much time up in the north I fully agree with meadish_sweetball's observation.

It would be interesting if the OP could find out if these hotel employees are indeed from north Thailand, preferably before 'embarrassing' them.

[Neeranam]

Especially the posts of meadish_sweetball might interest the OP and mooris7:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/254263-man-as-a-pronoun-how-disrespectful-is-it/

Any derogatory word can be used in the form of sarcasm with close friends! This is not the same. We are talking about hotel staff and a customer!

You obviously did not read through the whole link.

Most farangs will agree that mun is a 'bad' word and it should not be used. This is because all teachers and text books say so. And they are correct. But the meaning and use of mun might be different to native speakers. Text book and teachers in general avoid to go into the exceptions, finesses and nuances of the use. Discourse context, sociolinguistic aspects and dialect variety is here beyond the scope of the tutors. And even your Thai friends -although native speakers- might not be aware of the finesses or at least not be able to explain them to you. So they will just confirm that mun is bad and not to be used.

With thanks to poster meadish_sweetball who says this:

I was taught not to use มัน as a personal pronoun when I studied, and I stick to that - my philosophy is that as a foreigner and second language learner it's better to err on the side of politeness, especially here in Thailand where as a foreigner you are often held to a different standard.

And:

I don't think we should make a literal translation of มัน to 'it' and then proceed to interpret the issue as if somebody had referred to you as 'it' in English because the usage and connotations are not the same.

I hear Thais I know, mainly from Chiang Mai, using มัน to refer to third persons in casual conversation with people they are close to, and/or who are of the same age.

It is not a respectful manner of reference, but from what I have observed, it does not necessarily seem to be a strong marker of disrespect either.

My wife, and her brother, sister and cousins use it about each other (but not as a substitute for a second person pronoun i.e. not like 'you' in English - just when relating a story about person B to person C, where 'man' would be equivalent to 'him/her'). It's quite clear from the context that they don't look upon each other as animals or inanimate objects, or use this pronoun out of a clear intention to show disrespect.

It just seems like a sloppy or casual way of referring to somebody in the third person.

So based on my experience, you could classify it as a bad habit word perhaps, but not something to be as upset about as you might be if somebody talked about you as 'it' in English.

The bold is mine and having spend much time up in the north I fully agree with meadish_sweetball's observation.

It would be interesting if the OP could find out if these hotel employees are indeed from north Thailand, preferably before 'embarrassing' them.

I disagree. If someone from the North is working in a good hotel, they should have speak good Thai, especially if it isn't in the North.

[Roel]

I agree with that too. But that is not the point. The point is that 'mun' might not be so insulting or 'bad' as farangs learning Thai are led to believe (with good reason so they do not use it). Furthermore all over the world when people share the same dialect they tend to use that dialect whenever possible where ever they are. Human nature.

Whether or not a 5 star hotel should allow staff to communicate in their dialects among each other is another discussion.

[Richard W]

If someone from the North is working in a good hotel, they should have speak good Thai, especially if it isn't in the North.

Even to one another? However, I do agree that they should avoid giving offence.

However, isn't มันบ้อแล้ว offensive even if improved to เขาบ้อแล้ว? Is it even fair comment if American Express is not accepted? UK banks have been known to block card use on the basis that the bank doesn't know one is in Thailand. I for one did not take kindly to the suggestion that I had exceeded my limit when that happened to me.

[RedBullHorn]

I speak fluent Northern Thai, "Mun" is a very common word refering to a person in daily conversation usage by everybody.

In "Thai language", yes the word is generally referring to things and animals.

When i was managing a Thai Disco back in Singapore, i was hired due to my understanding of Northern Thai culture and fluency in Pasaar Khun Muang because my team of 25 service staffs are all from the northern region of Thailand.

We use the word "Mun" when refering to a customer when we speak among ourselves. All of our Northern Thai customers will also use the word "Mun" as a referal to a person.

I see it more as a cultural thingy, by the way... where was the hotel that you stayed, is it in the Northern region ?

Edited September 14, 2013 by RedBullHorn

[Roel]

There you go.

[Mole]

Another northern Thai word commonly used for they/he/she is เปิ้น (some people also use it to refer to themselves as in "I")

[Johnniey]

I speak fluent Northern Thai, "Mun" is a very common word refering to a person in daily conversation usage by everybody.

 

In "Thai language", yes the word is generally referring to things and animals.

 

When i was managing a Thai Disco back in Singapore, i was hired due to my understanding of Northern Thai culture and fluency in Pasaar Khun Muang because my team of 25 service staffs are all from the northern region of Thailand.

We use the word "Mun" when refering to a customer when we speak among ourselves. All of our Northern Thai customers will also use the word "Mun" as a referal to a person.

 

I see it more as a cultural thingy, by the way... where was the hotel that you stayed, is it in the Northern region ?

It the best hotel in Isarn and the staff look like they are from Isarn

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[RedBullHorn]

The next village from where i stay is for the Isan people (North Eastern), one of my farmhand is from this village. He speaks Thai, Muang and Isan.

He said they (Khun Isan) also use the word when referring to a person, things and animals. (I've asked)

He did mentioned that the proper word regardless of region should be "Khow" as learnt from school...but people just got used to using "Mun" mainly because the elderly in those olden period (untill now still) use words like;

1. King - you (northern)

2. Muang - still you or animals (northern)

3. Kair - he/she, him/her, his/hers (northern)

4. Mun - person, things or animals.

Edited September 14, 2013 by RedBullHorn

[RedBullHorn]

Another northern Thai word commonly used for they/he/she is เปิ้น (some people also use it to refer to themselves as in "I")

I used to refer to myself as "Pom" when i sarted out learning the language then my son was born and through the years as a toddler to his childhood, i am stuck with the word "Pern" because of his usage.

Now in his teens, occasionally i will still hear this word from him.... and i have change back to using "Pom" after my wife pull the hand brake on me.

[Neeranam]

The next village from where i stay is for the Isan people (North Eastern), one of my farmhand is from this village. He speaks Thai, Muang and Isan.

He said they (Khun Isan) also use the word when referring to a person, things and animals. (I've asked)

With all due respect, a good hotel is very different from a farm.

I've lived in Isarn for 10 years and I only have heard 'man' being used for animals, things, some close friends and family and of course farang by the ignorant.

Of course if you ask any Thai person, they will tell you that they use man for farang as a group(if they are honest)i.e "farng man chawp aharn ....."

Out of earshot fine but when you are present it is very rude. I think the only times I've heard it towards myself are times when they had no idea I could understand what they were saying. They think it's a joke, which I suppose it is. I used to go to London with my Scottish mates and talk about the English with words they didn't know the meaning of.

Isarn people will joke(insult) Thais from Bangkok often with words they don't understand.

OP, don't take it personally.

Edited September 15, 2013 by Neeranam

[RedBullHorn]

Yes i agree... A hotel is different from a farm as they operate on customers/guest base and social etiquette is of outmost important.

As I've said, it is mostly a cultural thing. For me being the foreigner knowing the finesses and nuances when using certain words help me better integrate into society hence getting acceptance.

Not finding a urgent need to correct or make people lose face. There's nothing to gain and nothing to proof that i am better educated or of a higher upper class. In my humble opinion and it's just me, i don't mean others, each to their own.

Where i came from, back in Singapore...The languages and dialects were no where any better, we too have many poor choice of words.

Edited September 15, 2013 by RedBullHorn

[Richard W]

Yes i agree... A hotel is different from a farm as they operate on customers/guest base and social etiquette is of outmost important.

The staff weren't talking to the customer, the OP. The relevant point is that they should assume that any customer may have some knowledge of Thai and therefore be careful what they say.

[Mole]

I happen to be a native Chiang Mai (actually half, my mother is from Chiang Mai) and speaks kam muang.

I disagree that "man" is even proper to use in these settings. There are other words one can use instead such as เปิ้น or เขา and in these settings even when speaking กำเมือง it's impolite to use มัน to refer to guests like this.

[Richard W]

I happen to be a native Chiang Mai (actually half, my mother is from Chiang Mai) and speaks kam muang.

Is that as dubious as claiming that the Geordie Abhisit is a native of Bangkok?

[Mole]

I was actually born in Chiang Mai and also spent my childhood there.

My father is Thai with Chinese ancestry.

But I moved with my mother and brothers when I was 7 to Norway. I still kept speaking muang with my mom in Norway though.

So, how much of a "native" am I now?

And <deleted> is this for you to question this??

I am quite proud of being both a Chinese and Lanna. When somebody who suddenly says my claims are dubious, I find it highly offensive!

Edited September 16, 2013 by Mole