Eucalyptus Tree

[Master Chief]

The family in BuriRam wants to start planting and growing Eucalyptus threes on their farmland, now used for rice crops. They have found a plant school ready to sell 3000 pc, 30cm plants for 80 satang per three.

Seems like they do not want to be involved in a govermental program, as the big farang is spending money for this project.

Have looked at the web to find info, but there is no technical information in english.

How to plant the threes and manage them?

Is there anyone here at this forum with any experiance in this matter?

Can they run a project like this as independant farmers?

Good research is the right way to investing

Edited April 22, 2006 by penzman

[MarkBKK]

The family in BuriRam wants to start planting and growing Eucalyptus threes on their farmland, now used for rice crops. They have found a plant school ready to sell 3000 pc, 30cm plants for 80 satang per three.

Seems like they do not want to be involved in a govermental program, as the big farang is spending money for this project.

Have looked at the web to find info, but there is no technical information in english.

How to plant the threes and manage them?

Is there anyone here at this forum with any experiance in this matter?

Can they run a project like this as independant farmers?

Good research is the right way to investing

Read this ...

www.fao.org/DOCREP/005/AC772E/ac772e0q.htm

[Master Chief]

Read this ...

www.fao.org/DOCREP/005/AC772E/ac772e0q.htm

Hi MarkBKK

Read that one, this is the typical articals to be found in the web.

What I'm looking for is the technical information how to do the actual planting and management.

[bkkmadness]

I thought this was a thread about a gang of Australian bank robbers.

[Old Croc]

I thought this was a thread about a gang of Australian bank robbers.

I thought it was about a gang of Australian drug growers.

[jdinasia]

i thought it was octogenarian rockstars!

[Maejo Man]

What are you planning on doing with the trees after maturity? Timber or oil?

If you are looking at serious farming I would suggest contact the experts in Australia. i.e. the C.S.I.R.O. or dept of agriculture. The C.S.I.R.O. will always offer information on projects.

or simply.........

Immediately upon receipt of your plants soak them in a bucket of water for fifteen minutes. Make a hole not much larger than the rootball. Do not incorporate peat or other soil 'improvers' because this can cause a barrier to water movement either by exaggerating drought in the summer on light soils or causing waterlogging in heavy soils during winter. The sooner the roots are growing into pure soil the better for the plant's stability and health.

Nitrogen increases top growth in Eucalypts, but not root growth, resulting in a reduced root/shoot ratio. Excessive Nitrogen can also encourage instability and reduce frost resistance. Phosphate enhances height growth, root collar diameter and root weight but does not alter the root/shoot ratio. Therefore the addition of phosphate in the form of bone meal in the planting hole or Superphosphate as a top dressing is most beneficial.

It is most important to completely eliminate any weed or grass competition at least 60cm (2ft) around the plant for the first two years to achieve good growth rates. Use a hoe in bare soil or tree mats. Be very careful if using contact or systemic herbicides as any spray drift can easily damage the young plants and the bark of older Eucalypts.

When you are ready to plant them remove the container, taking care not to damage the roots and plant with the root collar 2.5cm (1 inch) below the soil surface and firm. If dry thoroughly water again. Thereafter no further watering should be necessary (except in drought years) as long as competing weeds are checked.

Useful link

[jdinasia]

someone had to go and take this seriously ......

First I'd find out about the soil and rainfall/water requirements of the trees ... make sure they'll do right ... exactly where you want to plant them ;-)

[rio666uk]

take a look at the following thread - i asked something similar about euc trees when i joined thaivisa - you need to be completely sure about growing these trees before you start - theyre very destructive to the soil...

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=35579&hl=

[Master Chief]

Calculation of initial costs

Installation on 4 rai of land, 7200sqm

Plog the land 4,000

Plants 4000pc 3,200

Labor 5men 3,000

Total 10,200

After 3 year cut down and sell to sawmill

4000 threes at 100kg each gets 400000kg=400t

800 bath per ton gives 320,000 bath

subtract cutting and transport costs should make a good profit

Have I made it right or is there a flaw?

[Master Chief]

Seems like there is alot of info on the web, that there are investing schemes being done in Thailand.

Double A paper has shown up as major investor in pulp and sawmills to produce paper.

Planting and managing Eucalyptus threes in Thailand has been going on since the 70ths, so it is not a new thing.

Thai gov is planning for 50.000 rai to be used for three plantations in the near future and local agencies are promoting for farmers to join them in these gov run plantations. Soft loans are given by Ayuthaya and Kasikorn bank.

There must be sources for independent farmers to get information and sure are farmers already in full production of three plantation.

So where to find the helpfull info?

Fast growing threes are for sure using more nutrients and water than rice crops. pros and cons are always in the talks, but where is the experince from the actual owners of the plantations?

[plachon]

Seems like there is alot of info on the web, that there are investing schemes being done in Thailand.

Double A paper has shown up as major investor in pulp and sawmills to produce paper.

Planting and managing Eucalyptus threes in Thailand has been going on since the 70ths, so it is not a new thing.

Thai gov is planning for 50.000 rai to be used for three plantations in the near future and local agencies are promoting for farmers to join them in these gov run plantations. Soft loans are given by Ayuthaya and Kasikorn bank.

There must be sources for independent farmers to get information and sure are farmers already in full production of three plantation.

So where to find the helpfull info?

Fast growing threes are for sure using more nutrients and water than rice crops. pros and cons are always in the talks, but where is the experince from the actual owners of the plantations?

Put quickly and simply: eucalyptus trees in Thailand are bad news for the local soil, water, biodiversity and environment in general, and I would recommend avoiding them like the plague.

You'll probably ignore this advice and go ahead and plant them anyway, but you won't be able to say you weren't warned when your land and water supplies (plus those of your neighbour's degrades in the future). They're very thirsty trees, so expect the water table to lower in the dry season. Their leaves are poisonous and act as partial herbicides to most native plants. Their long leaves and structure tends to focus rainfall, not break it, thus causing increased erosion, aggravated by the lack of ground cover beneath the trees. They suck up nutrients from the soil, but put nothing back in. They have very little habitat or food value to native wildlife and so become virtual biodiversity deserts. Lastly, they feed an industry with little regard for the environment, and has a terrible track record of pollution, both air and water.

Lastly, due to the fact that they degrade your land, in the long run you can expect a rapidly diminishing return on your investment, while your labour costs will go up. Many eucalypt plantations in the longer term will be abandoned as wastelands, not worth the effort of maintaining them, while the land will be fit for little else should you wish to switch to another crop.

AVOID< AVOID< AVOID!

By the way, do you lithp?

[English Noodles]

Seems like there is alot of info on the web, that there are investing schemes being done in Thailand.

Double A paper has shown up as major investor in pulp and sawmills to produce paper.

Planting and managing Eucalyptus threes in Thailand has been going on since the 70ths, so it is not a new thing.

Thai gov is planning for 50.000 rai to be used for three plantations in the near future and local agencies are promoting for farmers to join them in these gov run plantations. Soft loans are given by Ayuthaya and Kasikorn bank.

There must be sources for independent farmers to get information and sure are farmers already in full production of three plantation.

So where to find the helpfull info?

Fast growing threes are for sure using more nutrients and water than rice crops. pros and cons are always in the talks, but where is the experince from the actual owners of the plantations?

Put quickly and simply: eucalyptus trees in Thailand are bad news for the local soil, water, biodiversity and environment in general, and I would recommend avoiding them like the plague.

You'll probably ignore this advice and go ahead and plant them anyway, but you won't be able to say you weren't warned when your land and water supplies (plus those of your neighbour's degrades in the future). They're very thirsty trees, so expect the water table to lower in the dry season. Their leaves are poisonous and act as partial herbicides to most native plants. Their long leaves and structure tends to focus rainfall, not break it, thus causing increased erosion, aggravated by the lack of ground cover beneath the trees. They suck up nutrients from the soil, but put nothing back in. They have very little habitat or food value to native wildlife and so become virtual biodiversity deserts. Lastly, they feed an industry with little regard for the environment, and has a terrible track record of pollution, both air and water.

Lastly, due to the fact that they degrade your land, in the long run you can expect a rapidly diminishing return on your investment, while your labour costs will go up. Many eucalypt plantations in the longer term will be abandoned as wastelands, not worth the effort of maintaining them, while the land will be fit for little else should you wish to switch to another crop.

AVOID< AVOID< AVOID!

By the way, do you lithp?

Sounds like good advice.

octogenarian (from Jd's post) I had never heard that word before, i like it, cheers.

[Master Chief]

Hahahaha

I just left another forum and got one experiance ritcher, so I must think that all your good advise must be of EVIL, you do not want thais to get ritcher and prosper on us farangs. All good advise must be of an egotriped mind. I will do it anyway inspite.

no seriously now, thanks for your input and advises.

Enviro and future living must be cleared.

It is not an easy problem to solve, as the family wants to make a living in a country side that as nothing more to give than working with rice or sugar. In the home town some farmers have jumped on the three plantation train and now all other thai families want to copy their living as always here. So what can I tell them to make for a living instead?

I'm a farang with care for nature and it plays an important role in my life to do this. So I tell them the cons for this project and hope a good outcome!

[rio666uk]

before you go full steam ahead with a euc plantation -

you may wish to give some thought to rubber trees instead -

ps: is there any particular reason why trees are threes in your world?

[AmeriThai]

It is not an easy problem to solve, as the family wants to make a living in a country side that as nothing more to give than working with rice or sugar. In the home town some farmers have jumped on the three plantation train and now all other thai families want to copy their living as always here. So what can I tell them to make for a living instead?

I'm a farang with care for nature and it plays an important role in my life to do this. So I tell them the cons for this project and hope a good outcome!

My wife is bent on growing mango trees. While mango is plentiful in Thailand, there's always a demand for them from neighbors and other locals and vendors. Best part is that the buyers do the harvest, and you only need to weigh what they want to buy and collect their money.

[plachon]

Hahahaha

I just left another forum and got one experiance ritcher, so I must think that all your good advise must be of EVIL, you do not want thais to get ritcher and prosper on us farangs. All good advise must be of an egotriped mind. I will do it anyway inspite.

no seriously now, thanks for your input and advises.

Enviro and future living must be cleared.

It is not an easy problem to solve, as the family wants to make a living in a country side that as nothing more to give than working with rice or sugar. In the home town some farmers have jumped on the three plantation train and now all other thai families want to copy their living as always here. So what can I tell them to make for a living instead?

I'm a farang with care for nature and it plays an important role in my life to do this. So I tell them the cons for this project and hope a good outcome!

You're off this planet man, with your egotriped minds, three plantation trains (with Bisto if you don't mind) and fanciful notions of helping your family get ritcher. Luv it!

But seriously, if you do want to help those Buriram folk in the long term, and not bequeath them or your kids a good for nothing piece of land, covered in eucalyptus buthes, not threes, then think again. Try one of the many native varieties of TREE, which will provide multi-use benefits well into the future, and many of which grow nearly as fast as eucalptus. Dton khae , dton sadao or dton dtin baet are three examples. The more trees you plant, the greater the complimentarity and the more potential benefits there will be in the future, when native foods from nature will steadily get more expensive. A few years ago, red ants eggs cost satang, now they're really valuable items and provide serious income to local villagers, but are getting scarcer by the year as trees and forests vanish (no kai mod daeng in euc plantations!) Mushrooms are another side benefit of planting multi-species forests.

By the way, you're being very optimistic thinking you can get a first harvest in 3 years. Think 5 at least, and if the soil is poor, even longer. I'm seeing 10 year old euc. trees still only the size of arms and a few metres tall in some parts of Isaan, which will be good for nothing but charcoal at harvest.

As I said, do what you want, but my advice is sage when it comes to poisoning your land with (n)eucs.

[Master Chief]

must be the left over stump of the index finger that likes to poke at the HHHHH

Lost that one in Bosnia

[Bicko]

must be the left over stump of the index finger that likes to poke at the HHHHH

Lost that one in Bosnia

Plachon makes his point very strongly and he is absolutely right. I am a horticulturist and specialised in Australian native flora. Eucs will give you problems. Anyone that has been to California and seen what has happened there-thousands of hectares rendered useless by eucs introduced from Australia many years ago. It is almost impossible to eradicate them.

Growing any form of monoculture (eucs, rubber, mangoes etc) needs consideration and investigation. Your income is limited to what the market will pay for that commodity at the time of harvesting and if there is a glut then your income may not cover costs for that year. You can not grow any other crop in association with your trees and as Plachon stated that is particularly true for Euclayptus species.

My wife and i have a lot of farm land here in Buri Ram but I would never consider growing euclayptus, rubber etc.

Put your money and energy into growing annual crops, do some investigation and grow BETTER. Work towards higher yield and better quality. If it does not work then try something else. With monoculture crops if it doesn't work you are up the proverbial eucalyptus tree and either have to destroy your crop and waste all that money and time or just walk away.

[Nawtilus]

edited stupid comment.

Edited April 30, 2006 by udon

[plachon]

must be the left over stump of the index finger that likes to poke at the HHHHH

Lost that one in Bosnia

Plachon makes his point very strongly and he is absolutely right. I am a horticulturist and specialised in Australian native flora. Eucs will give you problems. Anyone that has been to California and seen what has happened there-thousands of hectares rendered useless by eucs introduced from Australia many years ago. It is almost impossible to eradicate them.

Growing any form of monoculture (eucs, rubber, mangoes etc) needs consideration and investigation. Your income is limited to what the market will pay for that commodity at the time of harvesting and if there is a glut then your income may not cover costs for that year. You can not grow any other crop in association with your trees and as Plachon stated that is particularly true for Euclayptus species.

My wife and i have a lot of farm land here in Buri Ram but I would never consider growing euclayptus, rubber etc.

Put your money and energy into growing annual crops, do some investigation and grow BETTER. Work towards higher yield and better quality. If it does not work then try something else. With monoculture crops if it doesn't work you are up the proverbial eucalyptus tree and either have to destroy your crop and waste all that money and time or just walk away.

Interesting to hear the views of an Oz, who are often the first to defend their national tree icon from criticism. But being an expert in "native flora", I am sure you are acutely aware of the ravages of non-native flora and fauna on the ecosystems of your home country. I met quite a few people in Adelaide who were committed to removing every last oak and elm from the Adelaide Hills, before they could sleep easy at nights!

Ironically, in Thailand, the euc menace has morphed from being mainly driven by the pulp and paper giants (Phoenix and now Double A, for example), private concessionaries renting public/state land and a little help from the govt. nurseries who used to stock virtually nothing else 15 years ago, into one now largely driven by villagers (like MP's rellies), who are nursing it and planting it like there's no tomorrow. The price was only 700 B/ton, for many years, but has recently gone up to around 1,000 B/ton, which villagers perceive as a "good price", without taking into account the effects of inflation and fuel price rises over the intervening years. It's also considered an "easy crop" to grow, as you basically just plant it out the first year and then do nothing til harvest, unlike other cash crops which need care and attention. But the rapidly diminshing returns will not be noticed until the second and third cuts, when maintenance costs will increase.

Hence, they minimise their investment, and potential returns, on their land, which in the meantime degrades and becomes useless for future cultivation, without massive investments and soil amendments. Hence, there is a vicious cycle accumulating in Isaan at present by the second euc. boom that can be seen, which will be a nightmare for future generations to cope with. There are many plantations now dropping seeds, which germinate in neighbouring plots, including degraded native forests, which will then be in competition with eucs., adding to the biodiversity loss and general environmental impacts noticed with E. camaludensis.

Again, if anyone's considering Eucalyptus for their land, please RECONSIDER. It's bad news for you, the environment and future generations.

By the way Nawtilus, I tried koalas in my gum patch, but the buggers wouldn't come down when I called them to be petted by tourists, so I shot 'em all. Tasted great mate on the barbie!

[ourmanflint]

I agree with almost everything said here, DO NOT GROW EUCALYPTS.....

A more sustainable alternative a fter a bit of research would be Styrax tonkinensis (Siam benzoin?!) from Laos and Vietnam, see here, and here, it's a tree which grows very fast and is used extensively for pulp and paper mills, and also for resin production for the perfume industry.

There is also a fantastic pdf available to download, explaining all the pitfalls of Eucs here

As a farang you can hopefully see past local "propaganda" to see the bigger issues involved and maybe even start something unique

Good Luck

Edited April 22, 2006 by ourmanflint

[Kathe]

must be the left over stump of the index finger that likes to poke at the HHHHH

Lost that one in Bosnia

Plachon makes his point very strongly and he is absolutely right. I am a horticulturist and specialised in Australian native flora. Eucs will give you problems. Anyone that has been to California and seen what has happened there-thousands of hectares rendered useless by eucs introduced from Australia many years ago. It is almost impossible to eradicate them.

Growing any form of monoculture (eucs, rubber, mangoes etc) needs consideration and investigation. Your income is limited to what the market will pay for that commodity at the time of harvesting and if there is a glut then your income may not cover costs for that year. You can not grow any other crop in association with your trees and as Plachon stated that is particularly true for Euclayptus species.

My wife and i have a lot of farm land here in Buri Ram but I would never consider growing euclayptus, rubber etc.

Put your money and energy into growing annual crops, do some investigation and grow BETTER. Work towards higher yield and better quality. If it does not work then try something else. With monoculture crops if it doesn't work you are up the proverbial eucalyptus tree and either have to destroy your crop and waste all that money and time or just walk away.

Very interesting topic. That is why many part of the world cannot plant Eucs. If it is good for our land, Thais would have plant already. Anyway, it is a good idea that you would like to help our Esaan to be green. Eucs and Koala Bear belongs to Australia.

[udon]

Moved to plants, pets & vets.

[RamdomChances]

Ok Plachon has done the enviromental stuff. Me I'm a farmer and enviromentale stuff is fine as long as it does'nt stop me making a living so istead of going on about the enviromental bits I'll pick your financial model apart

Calculation of initial costs

Installation on 4 rai of land, 7200sqm

Plog the land 4,000

Plants 4000pc 3,200

Labor 5men 3,000

Total 10,200

After 3 year cut down and sell to sawmill

4000 threes at 100kg each gets 400000kg=400t

800 bath per ton gives 320,000 bath

subtract cutting and transport costs should make a good profit

Have I made it right or is there a flaw?

Yes two...mabye three

First you've only given them just less than 2 sq meters to grow....not a chance. They would need to be spaced at least 2 meters apart to give them any chance of growing more than a few cm in diameter so thats about 400 a rai or 1600 trees although I think even this fig is too high

Your probably looking at a 5 year crop not 3

100 kg/per tree is very unlikley after triming and wastage you probably looking more like 70 kg if spaced properly

So (1600 X 70 X 800)/1000 = 89600 Bhat for 5 years or about 18,000 a year. Which to be honest knowing the returns on most of the major crops here sound much more likley . It works out at about 4500/rai/year( less costs). It would probably work out more like 3000/rai/year after costs, although I doubt it would be this high.

The only people that grow it here are "absenty" landlords ie they have some land but don't live near it and want to grow a cheap, easliy looked after crop most people can make more money growing "traditional crops". After the 5 years your land is also fit for nothing as virtually everything will have been sucked out of it.

With only 4 rai I'd have a look at some sort of vegitable cultivation, high cost, high mantinance. Making any sort of meaningful money off 4 rai is always going to be dificult.I dont really think Eucalyptus is the answer

RC

[robint]

Hi guys

afaik

euca trees are considered a pest in oz. they completely wreck the soil robbing all nutrients and leave nothing behind except barren soil. the leaves are a fire hazard cos they don t rot but form an barren blanket underneath the tyrees so nothing survies even natural bugs.

once you have a second crop after 10 years you have to try and reclaim the land. its a reaaly difficult job becuase of the way the tap root grows. even a 20 tonne excavator can be broken on this type of job an owners dont want that kind of work

if you have good soil already keep it that way IMHO

[udon]

Master,

what did you decide?

[The Snark]

must be the left over stump of the index finger that likes to poke at the HHHHH

Lost that one in Bosnia

Plachon makes his point very strongly and he is absolutely right. I am a horticulturist and specialised in Australian native flora. Eucs will give you problems. Anyone that has been to California and seen what has happened there-thousands of hectares rendered useless by eucs introduced from Australia many years ago. It is almost impossible to eradicate them.

Small world. I was in on one of the investigations of the environmental damage caused by introducing Eucs into Southern California. We tried, unsuccessfully, to find erosion control plants that would grow in Euc damaged soil. The presence of Eucalyptol in the soil is more or less a semi permanent herbicide. I understand that there has been some experimentation using Eucalyptol as an herbicide along fence lines. The problem is the stuff doesn't degrade and continues leaching farther out into the soil year after year.

[robint]

hi snark

thats very interesting - permanent damage?

im not sure if thats evidenced here (at least from my local village knowledge base) we have grubbed up several euca plantations. i will have to see what happens to the subsequent usage. i beleive that the owner inteded to plant yam (cassava), as you probably know, cassava is one of the few crops that can be planted in salt damaged soil (which increases its cyanide content btw and makes the crop dangerous for local consumption unless boiled for an hour in lots of water.

cassava is also used in poor soil and produces reasonable returns

the euca scheme was introduced by the then governement as a get rich quick scheme for farmers (and influencial people). free saplings were handed out by the millions. it took 5 years before the satang dropped and perfectly good soil was found to be ruined for most practical purposes. a lot of saplings found their way onto unoccupied governemnt land. it was an easy thing to do, and once planted you left them alone for 3/4 years and then cropped them for sale as poles or feedstoxck for pulp mills.

im not a farmer and have little in depth knowledge about agriculture but i know plenty about all the problems and risks

[Huckenfell]

Calculation of initial costs

Installation on 4 rai of land, 7200sqm

Plog the land 4,000

Plants 4000pc 3,200

Labor 5men 3,000

Total 10,200

After 3 year cut down and sell to sawmill

4000 threes at 100kg each gets 400000kg=400t

800 bath per ton gives 320,000 bath

subtract cutting and transport costs should make a good profit

Have I made it right or is there a flaw?

Yeh ! MOTHER NATURE !