When Saving Face is 100 % BS

[David48]

I love it in Thailand.

Sure, it's got it's faults ... heck, I've got me faults too.

But sometimes the BS steps over that invisible line ... it did for me last Saturday.

My partner had to have a Blood Sugar test because an original test, the previous week, showed elevated levels.

So, it was Nil by Mouth overnight, up before the sparrows were contemplating their first fart.

Now, we live on the Farm, it had been raining overnight so the long bumpy road out of the Farm was impassable so we had to ask the Farm Mother to stir early, fire up the Long-Tail Boat, make our way up the Canals to the main road where we hope to find a Taxi Driver who was awake.

Thankfully the rain had abated and the Taxi driver was easy to find. 150 Baht to get to the Hospital, so it's not exactly around the corner.

We were first there at 7am. My Lassie even had the presence of mind to bring some food for me in case I got hungry ... while she was starving herself ... God love her.

What happened next got my goat up.

Despite the Hospitals Clinic being opened it took the best part of 10 mins before someone roused themselves and presented to the Front Counter.

Being a Blood Sugar test the Lassie was handed a sickly sweet glass of glucose and water and took maybe 5 mins to down it.

Then, about another 5 mins later a second Nurse/Assistant appears and ushers her into a cubicle and takes a blood sample. I'm just chilling contemplating what I'll eat for Breakie ... then it hit me.

Has anyone noticed the flaw at the Hospital.

<deleted> ... you take the blood sample BEFORE you drink the glass of glucose and water ... not after and certainly not 10 mins later.

I mentioned it to the gf and she seemed a little concerned.

No way was I going to cop this.

Had they made a sleepy, early morning mistake, apologised, made a token compensation ... everything would have been fine.

But no ... they feed us the BS line that 'Don't worry, it's OK', it's not a problem, the test will be fine.

Heck no ... the test won't be fine.

Now this isn't just a Government Hospital where you are cannon fodder ... it's a <deleted>' Private Hospital and we are paying for the test.

So, 1st one Nurse, then 2 Nurses ... trying to save face, their Face, the Hospital's Face.

Now, this test was a pre-cursor to spend the best part of 60,000 Baht there on a procedure.

If this is the level of service we would receive, combined with the incompetence ... I'm having second thoughts.

When I mentioned to the gf that, just to complete the Circus, they might alter the test results to 'prove' that they were right ... she's starting to have 2nd thoughts.

Everything else at the place is good ... no English, but I'm happy about that, because it means less like to be a two-tier charging system.

So, this BS continued for the better part of 10 mins.

I was giving the Lass the option to blame me for not accepting the test so that she wouldn't lose Face as she will have to go back to that specific Clinic within the Hospital several times over the coming months.

They then suggested that we come back next Saturday ...

I countered with a 'Fine, make the test free to compensate us for our time and expense getting here today'

'NO ... can not do'

The head Nurse then tried the old trick of divide and conquer getting the girlfriend over to her desk and me out of her ear. Nah ... I didn't stand for that BS either ... NICE TRY LADY.

Never was I loud or aggressive, never did I rise to my feet ... but never passive ever.

Held my line ...

Eventually, the Nurse who made the mistake offered to pay for the test herself.

That was an admission of her mistake ... but she never apologised ... she Saved her Face.

This is when we turned the tables, declined her offer, made her smile and things were good again.

Next time, they won't make that mistake again (hopefully) and my feeling is that they will take special care of us because she was able to exit the situation with her Face Intact.

This will work in our favour.

As I said in the opening line ... I love this place but sometimes ... just sometimes ...

Do you have a Face Saving story?

[jpeg]

Yeah. The Thai concept of face saving is simply the easiest route to get out of taking responsibility/owning up to something. The rest of SE Asia, predominantly Japan, face = honour. Honour bit thin on the ground here and I do wish the farang would give it up/bending over, and start pulling them up on it.

[CharlieH]

David, you are more forgiving than I would be, in those clear cut incompetant circumstanxes they wouldnt ever see me again. I couldnt and wouldnt trust them after that. Trust is a huge issue in hospitals or any care environment and once broken, for me anyway, its no going back.

I hope you sort it out and wish the little lady well for the future.

[sustento]

Admittedly they should have measured her BG before they gave her the glucose but if she's taking a 2 hour oral glucose tolerance test it's the result at the end of 2 hours that really matters rather than that at the beginning..

[tingtong]

IF/WHEN I am paying, it is generally may way i like to see the things go.

IF they dont go that way, WHEN the bills come it is MY TURN to save MY FACE not paying for something incompetent, or something i didnt access at all.

just 2 quick example: night, kid touch plug, electricity shut down, but he has some pain, so, go to hospital. about 1 hour waiting there (10:30pm around the time) before a nurse come, check the kid, look fine, he will live, so, pay 300 thb doctor fee +50 baht hospital...

cut it short, no doctor, not even a blood pressure check = no doctor fee. some faces, but hey, your rule, my money

bbq buffett restaurant, i dont feel well, so, tell to wife and her gf + 2 kids, np, i just sit, drink a water...i dont like the food much there anyway. make it clear for the server, no problem. finished, comes the bill, buffett for 5, + 2 bottle extra water what we never had.

oh. quick math, bottles still there...oho. but nevertheless buffett for 5. i refused, not really that 150thb, but spend the other 600 there + my water, should be enough. i didnt even try food from my wife plate, never even got a plate. greedy owner? well my face, my money, i dont go there anymore, not a loss at all. but i wont pay for something i dont have. the double charging is enough where i cant escape it.

[kurnell]

Ironically the Thais in my office love nothing more than loudly pointing out that I have made a mistake, but would rather kill their entire family than admit they have made a mistake.

[partington]

It seems like both the clinic and the patients are a bit confused in this story. The clinic were clearly giving a glucose tolerance test.

This is when the patient takes a measured amount of glucose and the clinic measures how much your blood glucose gets elevated, to test whether your glucose handling is abnormal, that is, whether you are definitively diabetic.

If your blood sugar is elevated above a prespecified level two hours after taking the glucose solution then you are classified as 'diabetic' or having 'impaired glucose tolerance'.

Usually you take a zero time blood sample to measure resting levels, then a sample two hours after the patient takes the glucose to test how the body handles the glucose load.

It is possible (I stress possible) that this clinic usually takes a sample just after the glucose is swallowed because they think there is not enough time for any glucose to have been absorbed, so this is an adequate "zero time" sample.

With no english that would be impossible to explain to the patients, and I am not clinically experienced enough to know whether this is an acceptable procedure. I would think probably not ideal, but it may well have been intentional, "just how they do it." They were clearly going to take a "zero time " sample, they were just doing it a little late.

This is a standard protocol for the glucose tolerance test from a US clinic:

Preparation

Patients should be advised to eat a normal carbohydrate diet (>150g daily) for at least 3 days prior to the test and undertake normal physical activity.

Patients must fast for 10-14 hours prior to this test but may drink small volumes of plain water.

Smoking and physical exercise should NOT be allowed in the morning prior to, and during, the test

Requirements

Adults: 75 g anhydrous glucose in cold water. The solution should be chilled to improve palatability. An alternative is this Polycal ® (113 mL) which is more palatable and should be followed by 150mL water (total volume should be 250-300mL).

Children: the dose is weight related 1.75g/kg body weight: the maximum load is 75g.

Polycal ® contains 0.66g anhydrous glucose per mL (or 1.51mL contains 1g anhydrous glucose).

Procedure

This test should be performed in the morning. Patients should remain at rest during the test.

There is no need to take urine samples for glucose measurements.

Time 0 min 1-2 mL blood should be taken in a fluoride oxalate tube: The glucose solution or Polycal ® should be drunk over 5 minutes.

Time 120 min 1-2 mL blood should be taken in a fluoride oxalate tube

Interpretation (blood glucose measurement mmol/l)

Time 0min 120min

non diabetic <6.0 <7.8

Impaired glucose tolerance 6.1-6.9 7.9-11

Diabetic >7 >11.1

Edited September 23, 2013 by partington

[David48]

It seems like both the clinic and the patients are a bit confused in this story. The clinic were clearly giving a glucose tolerance test.

<snip>

I think you can't see the Forest from the trees

The story isn't about a Blood Sugar test ... it's about Saving Face ... and when a lie or a mistake is presented as a truth or normal practise to Save Face.

Thank for your opportunity to give an example of what was actually done.

From the Mayo clinic ...

Initially the Lady had the ...

Initial glucose challenge test. You'll begin the glucose challenge test by drinking a syrupy glucose solution. One hour later, you'll have a blood test to measure your blood sugar level. A blood sugar level below 130 to 140 mg/dL or 7.2 to 7.8 mmol/L, is usually considered normal on a glucose challenge test, although this may vary at specific clinics or labs. If your blood sugar level is higher than normal, it only means you have a higher risk of gestational diabetes. Your doctor will order a follow-up test to determine if you have gestational diabetes.

It was at an elevated level so we were there for the follow-up test ...

Follow-up glucose tolerance testing. For the follow-up test, you'll be asked to fast overnight and then have your fasting blood sugar level measured. Then you'll drink another sweet solution — this one containing a higher concentration of glucose — and your blood sugar level will be checked every hour for a period of three hours. If at least two of the blood sugar readings are higher than the normal values established for each of the three hours of the test, you'll be diagnosed with gestational diabetes.

Same, but different from your example.

But to be honest ... if this OP was about the various Blood Sugar tests available, I would have posted in the Medical Forum.

[Beetlejuice]

David, you are more forgiving than I would be, in those clear cut incompetant circumstanxes they wouldnt ever see me again. I couldnt and wouldnt trust them after that. Trust is a huge issue in hospitals or any care environment and once broken, for me anyway, its no going back.

I hope you sort it out and wish the little lady well for the future.

I totally agree.

Our lives can be in the hands of these people, where there is no room for errors.

I would have simply refused to pay, have told them it`s their mistake, their problem and then walked out never to return and thanked my lucky stars that I or any of my family were not in there being treated for a major medical problem.

If I were the OP, I would never submit myself or any of my family under the tender mercies of that hospital.

[partington]

But to be honest ... if this OP was about the various Blood Sugar tests available, I would have posted in the Medical Forum.

I agree, but your point was you thought they were doing something wrong and covering it up. So the question is did they really do something that messed up the test? To know that you have to know the details of the test, right?

My point is that what they told you may well have been true---that a 10 minute sample followed by one , two and three hour samples may be a completely adequate glucose tolerance test.

That is, if you take a first blood sample at 10 minutes after the glucose rather than just before, it may indeed make no difference to the test.

So in fact the test may have been perfectly OK.

It doesn't seem unlikely to me that it could have been fine, and that they may have known that it would be fine.

EDIT: I just had a look at some glucose tolerance graphs out of interest, and at 10 minutes after taking the glucose dose there seems to be hardly any difference in blood glucose from the level before you take the glucose, so it does look like the test wouldn't be affected at all. I am not a doctor though so don't take my word for it...

Edited September 23, 2013 by partington

[KunMatt]

Ironically the Thais in my office love nothing more than loudly pointing out that I have made a mistake

^^^ And this is what I have come to believe Thai face is. Putting others down or showing yourself to be better than others. It is different from the Easy Asian face which is all about family honour.

Here everything is a game of oneupsmanship in the disguise of "face" to make it sound more honourable.

[Beetlejuice]

Ironically the Thais in my office love nothing more than loudly pointing out that I have made a mistake

^^^ And this is what I have come to believe Thai face is. Putting others down or showing yourself to be better than others. It is different from the Easy Asian face which is all about family honour.

Here everything is a game of oneupsmanship in the disguise of "face" to make it sound more honourable.

Total rubbish.

Back in the West, see what big companies, doctors, dentists and hospitals do in order to cover up or gloss over a situation when they make errors.

Ever tried suing or lying blame for imcompetence or malpractice on a member of the medical profession in the UK or the United States?

Trying not to lose face is about trying not to lose credibility, nothing to do with oneupsmanship. In the West this maybe described as losing prestige or one`s pride, which amounts to the same thing.

No one likes to lose credibility, whatever nationality, wherever in the world.

[kurnell]

Ironically the Thais in my office love nothing more than loudly pointing out that I have made a mistake

^^^ And this is what I have come to believe Thai face is. Putting others down or showing yourself to be better than others. It is different from the Easy Asian face which is all about family honour.

Here everything is a game of oneupsmanship in the disguise of "face" to make it sound more honourable.

Learnt this very early on in Thailand. A girl from head office would come to my office to visit once a month, I assume to make a report (Thai company) and she was overly pleasant and very charming. When I went to lunch she turned into a monster, screaming at the isaan staff, demanding to see their ID cards, treating them like prisoners in a gaol. So what do people get out of treating people that can't defend themselves like utter shit??? I guess you have to ask a Thai.

[transam]

This is not farang land and nothing surprises me. OP, it is hit or miss. We must ourselves try and look for the difference between wood and trees. When our lad was told he was going to have a heart attack AND cancer from his 15 year old finger nails my head began to understand stuff. Sadly.

[northernjohn]

David, you are more forgiving than I would be, in those clear cut incompetant circumstanxes they wouldnt ever see me again. I couldnt and wouldnt trust them after that. Trust is a huge issue in hospitals or any care environment and once broken, for me anyway, its no going back.

I hope you sort it out and wish the little lady well for the future.

I totally agree.

Our lives can be in the hands of these people, where there is no room for errors.

I would have simply refused to pay, have told them it`s their mistake, their problem and then walked out never to return and thanked my lucky stars that I or any of my family were not in there being treated for a major medical problem.

If I were the OP, I would never submit myself or any of my family under the tender mercies of that hospital..

As I understand it there are 200,000 deaths in the States every year due to Doctors mistakes.

Now you expect 100% perfection in Thailand. I have diabetes also and would not even have allowed them to give me any thing including a glass of water before they took a blood sample.

If the lady was in as bad a shape as the OP lets on they could have indeed done the proper thing. My Dad carried a beer with him in case his sugar level ever got to low and he would start to get wobbly. My ex wife and a friend went for a walk one day and the wife forgot the friend had diabetes and went at a good clip he was all shaky when they got back to the house and we gave him a candy bar and he was fine. First I called a nurse who lived in the same complex and that is what he said when I gave him the facts.

[Beetlejuice]

Ironically the Thais in my office love nothing more than loudly pointing out that I have made a mistake

^^^ And this is what I have come to believe Thai face is. Putting others down or showing yourself to be better than others. It is different from the Easy Asian face which is all about family honour.

Here everything is a game of oneupsmanship in the disguise of "face" to make it sound more honourable.

Learnt this very early on in Thailand. A girl from head office would come to my office to visit once a month, I assume to make a report (Thai company) and she was overly pleasant and very charming. When I went to lunch she turned into a monster, screaming at the isaan staff, demanding to see their ID cards, treating them like prisoners in a gaol. So what do people get out of treating people that can't defend themselves like utter shit??? I guess you have to ask a Thai.

Just another all things Thai bashing thread.

Do you work legally or have a legit business in Thailand? If so I guess you`re doing alright out of it, which means Thailand is giving you a living and that as a foreigner this is only possible due to the Thais politeness and being tolerate and allowing you to prosper here with the support of the working class Thais.

So what`s your problems with Thailand and why are you here? Probable answer; I`m only here for the beer or could it be for your high regard of them?

Better ask a Thai for the answers.

[MobileContent]

So they made a mistake. Mistakes always happens, specially if you live in remote areas.

I could count many stories that happened at local clinics and hospitals in the middle of nowhere for the past 24 years I lived in Thailand.

This is the way local farmers are confronted every day when they visit a hospital or clinic in Thailand but we are lucky we can always move our Mrs to Bangkok to get a better service or if things get very nasty we could even fly them to Singapore or back to our country.

My Mrs born a baby in a government hospital for 6% of the price in an international hospital. Their were problems from all sides and surely at times wrong decisions were made by the doctor and nurses.

As they say you pay peanuts you get monkeys.

Next time go to Bangkok for a day trip and visit the the Bumrungrad Hospital and you should be fine.

That's the risk of staying in remote areas but at least we have options that the other farmers don't have and your Mrs seems to somehow understand the situation.

[David48]

So they made a mistake. Mistakes always happens, specially if you live in remote areas.

I could count many stories that happened at local clinics and hospitals in the middle of nowhere for the past 24 years I lived in Thailand.

This is the way local farmers are confronted every day when they visit a hospital or clinic in Thailand but we are lucky we can always move our Mrs to Bangkok to get a better service or if things get very nasty we could even fly them to Singapore or back to our country.

My Mrs born a baby in a government hospital for 6% of the price in an international hospital. Their were problems from all sides and surely at times wrong decisions were made by the doctor and nurses.

As they say you pay peanuts you get monkeys.

Next time go to Bangkok for a day trip and visit the the Bumrungrad Hospital and you should be fine.

That's the risk of staying in remote areas but at least we have options that the other farmers don't have and your Mrs seems to somehow understand the situation.

Thanks, and I appreciate the post, but it's a wrong assumption ... we live next to Bangkok.

I know the Bumrungrad Hospital ... but it's not for the Thai's

.

[Munger]

Ironically the Thais in my office love nothing more than loudly pointing out that I have made a mistake

^^^ And this is what I have come to believe Thai face is. Putting others down or showing yourself to be better than others. It is different from the Easy Asian face which is all about family honour.

Here everything is a game of oneupsmanship in the disguise of "face" to make it sound more honourable.

Total rubbish.

Back in the West, see what big companies, doctors, dentists and hospitals do in order to cover up or gloss over a situation when they make errors.

Ever tried suing or lying blame for imcompetence or malpractice on a member of the medical profession in the UK or the United States?

Trying not to lose face is about trying not to lose credibility, nothing to do with oneupsmanship. In the West this maybe described as losing prestige or one`s pride, which amounts to the same thing.

No one likes to lose credibility, whatever nationality, wherever in the world.

TOTAL RUBBISH, "Bettle"

[kannot]

Thailand is great until something goes wrong and then they couldnt care one iota about you, from minor ops to death, they really couldnt care less.

[kannot]

This is not farang land and nothing surprises me. OP, it is hit or miss. We must ourselves try and look for the difference between wood and trees. When our lad was told he was going to have a heart attack AND cancer from his 15 year old finger nails my head began to understand stuff. Sadly.

You can never trust anything told to you here especially in construction, expect the same in all professions, have had many experiences in the last few years with outright lies in many cases.

Our work is guaranteed 10 years....no one year....no NO years, after payment, is one very small example.

REMEMBER.... Thais trust no one!!

Edited September 23, 2013 by kannot

[KunMatt]

Ironically the Thais in my office love nothing more than loudly pointing out that I have made a mistake

^^^ And this is what I have come to believe Thai face is. Putting others down or showing yourself to be better than others. It is different from the Easy Asian face which is all about family honour.

Here everything is a game of oneupsmanship in the disguise of "face" to make it sound more honourable.

Total rubbish.

Back in the West, see what big companies, doctors, dentists and hospitals do in order to cover up or gloss over a situation when they make errors.

Ever tried suing or lying blame for imcompetence or malpractice on a member of the medical profession in the UK or the United States?

Trying not to lose face is about trying not to lose credibility, nothing to do with oneupsmanship. In the West this maybe described as losing prestige or one`s pride, which amounts to the same thing.

No one likes to lose credibility, whatever nationality, wherever in the world.

Oh right, thanks for correcting my experience of living in Thailand, by pretty much extending what I already said!!

Whatever you want to call it; Credibility, social status, oneupsmanship, gossiping about anyone that threatens your status and all the other petty crap that I see daily all amounts to the same thing. Face here is very different to China. It's much more a high school girl version of wanting to look good and/or making others look bad so you look good.

You can tell me I'm wrong but it's not going to change everything I've seen living out here.

[itchybum]

If they cannot do something that simple correctly...well..

I would be elsewhere in a jiffy.

Plenty of Thais go to Bumgrab.

Try St Louis in Sathorn.

Don't bet on improved performance...like they give a shit.

[snake24]

Ironically the Thais in my office love nothing more than loudly pointing out that I have made a mistake

^^^ And this is what I have come to believe Thai face is. Putting others down or showing yourself to be better than others. It is different from the Easy Asian face which is all about family honour.

Here everything is a game of oneupsmanship in the disguise of "face" to make it sound more honourable.

Total rubbish.

Back in the West, see what big companies, doctors, dentists and hospitals do in order to cover up or gloss over a situation when they make errors.

Ever tried suing or lying blame for imcompetence or malpractice on a member of the medical profession in the UK or the United States?

Trying not to lose face is about trying not to lose credibility, nothing to do with oneupsmanship. In the West this maybe described as losing prestige or one`s pride, which amounts to the same thing.

No one likes to lose credibility, whatever nationality, wherever in the world.

Agree the way op and some members posting here it's as if farang don't like to save face and openly admit mistakes while east asians and asians are all dishonest face savers. Lost count of the number of times farang get extremely defensive when any small comment is made about them on various sites like youtube and the like.

[Huayrat]

I went to the private hospital here in Buriram last week and what a joke the Doctor was.. Ive got a swelling under my armpit and ive had it for 5 monthsso could be cancer who knows.. I go into his room to see him and take my shirt off.. He then tells me to go with the nurse to take blood and an xray.. Im thinking an xray will show &lt;deleted&gt; all i want an ultrasound.. so get my blood taken and an x ray.. wait 45 mins for the blood results and he tells me i have inflation of arm and breast tissue and my lungs look ok on the x ray.. Im thinking my fking lungs its my armpit you daft arse.. He then says my blood pressure is a little high.. I know this already &lt;deleted&gt; im not here for this.. I then get tablets.. &lt;deleted&gt; aspirin and inflammatory shit.. Hence why im off to bangkok hospital in korat tomorrow a full 2 hours away and i wont be leaving without a proper diagnosis this time..

[itchybum]

Ironically the Thais in my office love nothing more than loudly pointing out that I have made a mistake

^^^ And this is what I have come to believe Thai face is. Putting others down or showing yourself to be better than others. It is different from the Easy Asian face which is all about family honour.

Here everything is a game of oneupsmanship in the disguise of "face" to make it sound more honourable.

Total rubbish.

Back in the West, see what big companies, doctors, dentists and hospitals do in order to cover up or gloss over a situation when they make errors.

Ever tried suing or lying blame for imcompetence or malpractice on a member of the medical profession in the UK or the United States?

Trying not to lose face is about trying not to lose credibility, nothing to do with oneupsmanship. In the West this maybe described as losing prestige or one`s pride, which amounts to the same thing.

No one likes to lose credibility, whatever nationality, wherever in the world.

Agree the way op and some members posting here it's as if farang don't like to save face and openly admit mistakes while east asians and asians are all dishonest face savers. Lost count of the number of times farang get extremely defensive when any small comment is made about them on various sites like youtube and the like.

People with any real character do not mind admitting when wrong.

[rgs2001uk]

Whose idea was it to use this hospital?

You live in SP if I rememeber, how many local clinics, gov't hospitals did you pass that could have carried out the same tests?

Go elsewhere and get a second opinion.

And yes the BS I have heard over the years is unbelievable, the mrs after living and working overseas no longer puts up with it, more than once I have heard the expression, mia farang used, for the simple reason she no longer will put up with this crap.

The mrs was presented with a bill of 6k baht by some Somchai come lately Dr, she went in with a bad back, this guy didnt even examine her or take an X-Ray, wrote a prescription for some painkillers and anti inflammatories, the mrs said no thanks, and walked out.

Edited September 23, 2013 by rgs2001uk

[snake24]

This is not farang land and nothing surprises me. OP, it is hit or miss. We must ourselves try and look for the difference between wood and trees. When our lad was told he was going to have a heart attack AND cancer from his 15 year old finger nails my head began to understand stuff. Sadly.

You can never trust anything told to you here especially in construction, expect the same in all professions, have had many experiences in the last few years with outright lies in many cases.

Our work is guaranteed 10 years....no one year....no NO years, after payment, is one very small example.

REMEMBER.... Thais trust no one!!

What do u mean?

[snake24]

People with any real character do not mind admitting when wrong.

true but to actually attribute it to a race or nationality now that's just wrong.

[transam]

People with any real character do not mind admitting when wrong.

true but to actually attribute it to a race or nationality now that's just wrong.

Is it ?