When Saving Face is 100 % BS

[Berkshire]

^^^ And this is what I have come to believe Thai face is. Putting others down or showing yourself to be better than others. It is different from the Easy Asian face which is all about family honour.

Here everything is a game of oneupsmanship in the disguise of "face" to make it sound more honourable.

Total rubbish.

Back in the West, see what big companies, doctors, dentists and hospitals do in order to cover up or gloss over a situation when they make errors.

Ever tried suing or lying blame for imcompetence or malpractice on a member of the medical profession in the UK or the United States?

Trying not to lose face is about trying not to lose credibility, nothing to do with oneupsmanship. In the West this maybe described as losing prestige or one`s pride, which amounts to the same thing.

No one likes to lose credibility, whatever nationality, wherever in the world.

Agree the way op and some members posting here it's as if farang don't like to save face and openly admit mistakes while east asians and asians are all dishonest face savers. Lost count of the number of times farang get extremely defensive when any small comment is made about them on various sites like youtube and the like.

So true. Refusing to admit when one is wrong is a true hallmark of Thai-bashers on TV. When it comes to saving face, farangs in Thailand are probably the worst offenders.

[seajae]

Woooo hooooo.. another thread where we can all complain how stupid Thai's are from our elevated position as the world's master race...

totster

The Thai Society-bashers are generally those who haven't been in-country very long or else live in some cloistered farang compound isolated from the general population.

It is what it is, man and Thais aren't gonna change to meet some farang's ideal of how they should act and behave.

Just sayin' like...

Mistakes are made all over the world but in the western world they do not use "face" as an excuse for their stupidity. Thailand is a great country (and I love living here)but the idiots that use "face" to try to get away with their f*ckups have no excuse what so ever and anyone defending them is beneath contempt. When some one stuffs up they should have to gumption(balls) to admit it and not start making up bullshit stories and lies, that is a sign of real class not the crap they come up with trying to get out of it because they are embarrased.

[seajae]

So they made a mistake. Mistakes always happens, specially if you live in remote areas.

I could count many stories that happened at local clinics and hospitals in the middle of nowhere for the past 24 years I lived in Thailand.

This is the way local farmers are confronted every day when they visit a hospital or clinic in Thailand but we are lucky we can always move our Mrs to Bangkok to get a better service or if things get very nasty we could even fly them to Singapore or back to our country.

My Mrs born a baby in a government hospital for 6% of the price in an international hospital. Their were problems from all sides and surely at times wrong decisions were made by the doctor and nurses.

As they say you pay peanuts you get monkeys.

Next time go to Bangkok for a day trip and visit the the Bumrungrad Hospital and you should be fine.

That's the risk of staying in remote areas but at least we have options that the other farmers don't have and your Mrs seems to somehow understand the situation.

all medical staff are supposed to be trained in their actual work, doesnt matter if its a shitheap hospital or some fancy private hospital, they all should have the knowledge to compete the work they do correctly. All this girl needed to do was apollogise but this is losing face and she refused to do so so it is her fault, not the ops and his choice of hospital. In Australia he wouold have had legal comeback for this but not here, the hospital stuifed up and they are the ones responsible, trying to put it onto "farangs" is bullshit and you know it. This article is not denegrating Thailand, it is telling us exactly how childish and pathetic some people can be with "face" and the op was in the right is this case too.

[NoshowJones]

Can I go the opposite way. When I was a school teacher, the Head of the English department retired, the new one was a young teacher, and she told me to use a different teaching method, and then she explained what she wanted, I said OK, tried it. and told her that in my opinion it was not working. I asked her if I could go back to the original method explaining why. She said OK, go back to your method on Monday. Thais would say she lost face, but I say she never. What she did do was earn my respect.

[kurnell]

Ironically the Thais in my office love nothing more than loudly pointing out that I have made a mistake

^^^ And this is what I have come to believe Thai face is. Putting others down or showing yourself to be better than others. It is different from the Easy Asian face which is all about family honour.

Here everything is a game of oneupsmanship in the disguise of "face" to make it sound more honourable.

Learnt this very early on in Thailand. A girl from head office would come to my office to visit once a month, I assume to make a report (Thai company) and she was overly pleasant and very charming. When I went to lunch she turned into a monster, screaming at the isaan staff, demanding to see their ID cards, treating them like prisoners in a gaol. So what do people get out of treating people that can't defend themselves like utter shit??? I guess you have to ask a Thai.

Just another all things Thai bashing thread.

Do you work legally or have a legit business in Thailand? If so I guess you`re doing alright out of it, which means Thailand is giving you a living and that as a foreigner this is only possible due to the Thais politeness and being tolerate and allowing you to prosper here with the support of the working class Thais.

So what`s your problems with Thailand and why are you here? Probable answer; I`m only here for the beer or could it be for your high regard of them?

Better ask a Thai for the answers.

ha ha ha. You gotta lot to learn

[kurnell]

Ironically the Thais in my office love nothing more than loudly pointing out that I have made a mistake, but would rather kill their entire family than admit they have made a mistake.

I posit that that is because you are of the farang variety and therefore do not count.

I care not what they think as I control the salaries, bonuses, working conditions....get the picture?

[Gsxrnz]

Can I go the opposite way. When I was a school teacher, the Head of the English department retired, the new one was a young teacher, and she told me to use a different teaching method, and then she explained what she wanted, I said OK, tried it. and told her that in my opinion it was not working. I asked her if I could go back to the original method explaining why. She said OK, go back to your method on Monday. Thais would say she lost face, but I say she never. What she did do was earn my respect.

Actually, that's not how I would interpret it. You gave her face by accepting her alternate teaching method - your alternative was to dispute her proposal, thus taking away her face. In effect you also gained face for not disputing her proposal and causing conflict.

She returned the face that you gave her by letting you revert to your former methods - notwithstanding the good or bad of the two teaching methods, her decision was aided by the fact that she owed you a favour in face.

Nobody lost face, the problem was rectified.

If you had disputed her proposal from the outset and taken her face away, she would have had no option but to gain face by insisting that you do it her way. And if that had happened and you later told her that it wasn't working, she would have no choice but to say her method will remain in place, thus gaining the face originally taken away from her.

It's a game - games have rules, and rules can be manipulated to best advantage.

[cpofc]

A 'Famous' Australian Ad for the Yellow Pages. Synonomous with the Australian workplace today.

[NoshowJones]

This is not farang land and nothing surprises me. OP, it is hit or miss. We must ourselves try and look for the difference between wood and trees. When our lad was told he was going to have a heart attack AND cancer from his 15 year old finger nails my head began to understand stuff. Sadly.

You can never trust anything told to you here especially in construction, expect the same in all professions, have had many experiences in the last few years with outright lies in many cases.

Our work is guaranteed 10 years....no one year....no NO years, after payment, is one very small example.

REMEMBER.... Thais trust no one!!

What do u mean?

Yes, I have came across the odd Thai cheat, but the biggest majority I have met or did work for me have been trustworthy and honest.

[NoshowJones]

Can I go the opposite way. When I was a school teacher, the Head of the English department retired, the new one was a young teacher, and she told me to use a different teaching method, and then she explained what she wanted, I said OK, tried it. and told her that in my opinion it was not working. I asked her if I could go back to the original method explaining why. She said OK, go back to your method on Monday. Thais would say she lost face, but I say she never. What she did do was earn my respect.

Actually, that's not how I would interpret it. You gave her face by accepting her alternate teaching method - your alternative was to dispute her proposal, thus taking away her face. In effect you also gained face for not disputing her proposal and causing conflict.

She returned the face that you gave her by letting you revert to your former methods - notwithstanding the good or bad of the two teaching methods, her decision was aided by the fact that she owed you a favour in face.

Nobody lost face, the problem was rectified.

If you had disputed her proposal from the outset and taken her face away, she would have had no option but to gain face by insisting that you do it her way. And if that had happened and you later told her that it wasn't working, she would have no choice but to say her method will remain in place, thus gaining the face originally taken away from her.

It's a game - games have rules, and rules can be manipulated to best advantage.

Yes, you make a good point, I'm glad then she did not lose face, she was a lovely person, as were my two previous Heads of the English Dept.

[MobileContent]

So they made a mistake. Mistakes always happens, specially if you live in remote areas.

I could count many stories that happened at local clinics and hospitals in the middle of nowhere for the past 24 years I lived in Thailand.

This is the way local farmers are confronted every day when they visit a hospital or clinic in Thailand but we are lucky we can always move our Mrs to Bangkok to get a better service or if things get very nasty we could even fly them to Singapore or back to our country.

My Mrs born a baby in a government hospital for 6% of the price in an international hospital. Their were problems from all sides and surely at times wrong decisions were made by the doctor and nurses.

As they say you pay peanuts you get monkeys.

Next time go to Bangkok for a day trip and visit the the Bumrungrad Hospital and you should be fine.

That's the risk of staying in remote areas but at least we have options that the other farmers don't have and your Mrs seems to somehow understand the situation.

Thanks, and I appreciate the post, but it's a wrong assumption ... we live next to Bangkok.

I know the Bumrungrad Hospital ... but it's not for the Thai's

.

Oopss - I thought you live same as me in Nakhon Nowhere. After our terrible experiences with government hospitals in Isaan, she is now every year for a check-up at Bumungrad and just had her check-up last month. Good Luck

[Benmart]

Ironically the Thais in my office love nothing more than loudly pointing out that I have made a mistake

^^^ And this is what I have come to believe Thai face is. Putting others down or showing yourself to be better than others. It is different from the Easy Asian face which is all about family honour.

Here everything is a game of oneupsmanship in the disguise of "face" to make it sound more honourable.

Total rubbish.

Back in the West, see what big companies, doctors, dentists and hospitals do in order to cover up or gloss over a situation when they make errors.

Ever tried suing or lying blame for imcompetence or malpractice on a member of the medical profession in the UK or the United States?

Trying not to lose face is about trying not to lose credibility, nothing to do with oneupsmanship. In the West this maybe described as losing prestige or one`s pride, which amounts to the same thing.

No one likes to lose credibility, whatever nationality, wherever in the world.

I agree. "Saving face" is practiced world wide under different disguises. I think perhaps we notice it more here because it is not camouflaged as well and we are in a foreign country.

I vote with my Baht. Bad service = I go elsewhere after I explain politely why.

[David48]

It is possible to enlighten a Thai person about an error or omission without actually causing them (or you) to lose face or become embarrassed - normally resulting in the problem being solved or resolved with mutual happiness. You must give face to them in order for them to return it to you. Returning it to you means the problem is resolved with no need to admit or confess that a mistake was made in the first place, even though everybody knows that a mistake was made. It's all about the exposure!

<snip>

Mate, I didn't have any likes left at the time ... great Post Gsxrnz BTW.

When I was pushing the issue, I remained calm and never aggressive at the time because of exactly what you were referring to.

I was hunting for an apology from the Hospital for the stuff-up and, after all ... we are all human.

More importantly, I was looking for a free service from the Hospital as a lot of their work is labour based thus having no intrinsic cost.

They held their ground there also ... no problems.

Options exhausted, we both took a backward step ... some give from her side ... some also from my side.

We both walked away happy, face saving and smiles all round.

I think that the gf will get better service next time ... and we will discover if my assessment of the situation is correct this Saturday ... because that's when she's back for that specific test ... and a few others.

I'll report back what happens.

[Gsxrnz]

It is possible to enlighten a Thai person about an error or omission without actually causing them (or you) to lose face or become embarrassed - normally resulting in the problem being solved or resolved with mutual happiness. You must give face to them in order for them to return it to you. Returning it to you means the problem is resolved with no need to admit or confess that a mistake was made in the first place, even though everybody knows that a mistake was made. It's all about the exposure!

<snip>

Mate, I didn't have any likes left at the time ... great Post Gsxrnz BTW.

When I was pushing the issue, I remained calm and never aggressive at the time because of exactly what you were referring to.

I was hunting for an apology from the Hospital for the stuff-up and, after all ... we are all human.

More importantly, I was looking for a free service from the Hospital as a lot of their work is labour based thus having no intrinsic cost.

They held their ground there also ... no problems.

Options exhausted, we both took a backward step ... some give from her side ... some also from my side.

We both walked away happy, face saving and smiles all round.

I think that the gf will get better service next time ... and we will discover if my assessment of the situation is correct this Saturday ... because that's when she's back for that specific test ... and a few others.

I'll report back what happens.

Cheers David and best withes to your SO for Saturday, hope it all turns out for the best.

[Berkshire]

I think that the gf will get better service next time ... and we will discover if my assessment of the situation is correct this Saturday ... because that's when she's back for that specific test ... and a few others

I wouldn't bet the farm on that. It depends how you treated the staff....if you came across as a typical know-it-all, pain-in-the-ass farang, which would annoy even me, or just a reasonable bloke who had a disagreement. Too many times, farangs will go off on the Thais thinking that losing your temper is somehow respected in this society. It's not. I mean, it's really, really not. It just demonstrates ignorance and an inability to control your emotions. Most people in any society wouldn't respond well to that. But I understand that you acted reasonably, which may bode well.

[David48]

I think that the gf will get better service next time ... and we will discover if my assessment of the situation is correct this Saturday ... because that's when she's back for that specific test ... and a few others

I wouldn't bet the farm on that. It depends how you treated the staff....if you came across as a typical know-it-all, pain-in-the-ass farang, which would annoy even me, or just a reasonable bloke who had a disagreement. Too many times, farangs will go off on the Thais thinking that losing your temper is somehow respected in this society. It's not. I mean, it's really, really not. It just demonstrates ignorance and an inability to control your emotions. Most people in any society wouldn't respond well to that. But I understand that you acted reasonably, which may bode well.

Agreed ... I know exactly what you mean.

When I realised that I couldn't achieve what I wanted ... instead of keep digging, I got an exit strategy.

I reckon it ended well ... but the proof is in the pudding ... and that will be tested this Saturday.

Will report back the attitude.

[partington]

Admittedly they should have measured her BG before they gave her the glucose but if she's taking a 2 hour oral glucose tolerance test it's the result at the end of 2 hours that really matters rather than that at the beginning..

as a diabetic I am going to flame you on this. They need to have the first test to get your base level otherwise they have no bloody idea of what the variances are, obviously you have no bloody idea if you are coming up with shit like this. How in the hell do they know what her levels are doing if they do not have a baseline to work off, it doesnt matter what her final test shows it has to be compared to the original tbaseline to see if she does have a problem. I have had several of these tests over the years, the first test sets you baseline, the second test shows how much it increases with the set amount of sugars and the last one shows how much it reduces/quickly reduces back towards your baseline. If your baseline is say 7.1 and it goes to 15 after the first test then back to only 11 in the third they have no possible idea what figures to look at as they do not know where the levels started, at least try to be a bit realistic about this or stop trying to defend the idiots that did it.

You are quite right about this, but the whole point is that according to the OP's original account they were going to take the first blood sample literally 5 minutes after the patient had swallowed the glucose.

This was going to be their baseline sample. Five minutes is not enough time for any significant amount of glucose to be absorbed, and change the blood sugar level significantly. I've looked at curves and at 5 minutes after drinking the glucose there is pretty much no change at all in blood glucose.

This makes sense as glucose is held in the stomach and has to be released into the small intestine for absorbtion to start, and this takes a certain amount of time, probably more than 5 minutes.

Therefore when they told him that taking the first sample just after the glucose had been drunk would not affect the test, they could have been , and probably were, completely correct.

I do not know whether they forgot the initial blood sample or whether they don't bother much, and just use a five minute sample as baseline because its not significantly different from zero.

The point is, comparing the sample they were going to take at 5 minutes with the later samples, for example taken one , two or three hours later would have been ok, because the blood glucose measured at at zero and five minutes after glucose are not very different (if different at all) whereas the 1 and two hour samples are massively different.

So the question is: did the OP make an error thinking the test had already been messed up, or did the clinic make a mistake by telling him that a five -minute 'zero time' sample would be fine?

A qualified clinician would be needed to tell us. But all the evidence I can find suggests the OP was mistaken , and the clinic were right to say the test would not have been compromised by using a 5 minute, rather than 0 minute, baseline.

Edited September 24, 2013 by partington

[David48]

^^ It was actually 10 minutes, because it took her 5 mins to drink the liquid, then another 5 mins later.

But I do get your point.

I'm a reasonable man.

[sustento]

Admittedly they should have measured her BG before they gave her the glucose but if she's taking a 2 hour oral glucose tolerance test it's the result at the end of 2 hours that really matters rather than that at the beginning..

as a diabetic

So am I.

[ABCer]

Irrespective of the hospital story, I believe 'Saving Face' is always a 100% BS.

Nothing wrong in my opinion with admitting a mistake, apologizing and correcting it.

This process is directly related to improvement and learning.

No wonder neither of the later takes place in Thailand. At least on a noticeable level.

Hyper-inflated 'Saving Face' syndrome is often a sign of not much Face to save.

Now is the time for the 'Thai Bashing' squad to step in... Better run for a cuppa...

[kannot]

Can I go the opposite way. When I was a school teacher, the Head of the English department retired, the new one was a young teacher, and she told me to use a different teaching method, and then she explained what she wanted, I said OK, tried it. and told her that in my opinion it was not working. I asked her if I could go back to the original method explaining why. She said OK, go back to your method on Monday. Thais would say she lost face, but I say she never. What she did do was earn my respect.

Actually, that's not how I would interpret it. You gave her face by accepting her alternate teaching method - your alternative was to dispute her proposal, thus taking away her face. In effect you also gained face for not disputing her proposal and causing conflict.

She returned the face that you gave her by letting you revert to your former methods - notwithstanding the good or bad of the two teaching methods, her decision was aided by the fact that she owed you a favour in face.

Nobody lost face, the problem was rectified.

If you had disputed her proposal from the outset and taken her face away, she would have had no option but to gain face by insisting that you do it her way. And if that had happened and you later told her that it wasn't working, she would have no choice but to say her method will remain in place, thus gaining the face originally taken away from her.

It's a game - games have rules, and rules can be manipulated to best advantage.

I dont like games

[kannot]

This is not farang land and nothing surprises me. OP, it is hit or miss. We must ourselves try and look for the difference between wood and trees. When our lad was told he was going to have a heart attack AND cancer from his 15 year old finger nails my head began to understand stuff. Sadly.

You can never trust anything told to you here especially in construction, expect the same in all professions, have had many experiences in the last few years with outright lies in many cases.

Our work is guaranteed 10 years....no one year....no NO years, after payment, is one very small example.

REMEMBER.... Thais trust no one!!

What do u mean?

Yes, I have came across the odd Thai cheat, but the biggest majority I have met or did work for me have been trustworthy and honest.

Im glad you had that experience, Ive found a lot of my workers honest enough but with zero skills, Thais still dont trust each other though from what i see.

[ABCer]

Actually, David, I remember one thing directly related to medical aspect of your OP.

A daughter of my friend had an episode of falling at school. Once, twice... After the third incident she was taken to see a MD (a GP in my understanding).

Some medication was prescribed and did not help. A visit to another GP, another medication with the same result.

I have asked to describe to me the circumstances. The picture didn't look good. My suspicion became almost a certainty - juvenile epilepsy (?).

Not being even close to a medico I insisted on her seeing a specialist. The answer was - it's costly. And the third GP, who was told of my suspicion rejected the idea.

Well, the girl was 17, a very good looker and brainy one for that too.

So, getting angry with the parents, I demanded the consultation with a Neurologist and a special EEG test at a private hospital in BKK. At my expense.

Guess what? A definite confirmed case of epilepsy. It has never showed before. Special medication worked! The girl is now studying at Uni. Three GPs keep their bloody faces.

Conclusions:

- I'm always right. ( )

- It cost me total 11,000 bt. ( )

- Being right is not always making me happy - sorry for the girl.

- How stubborn and uneducated some people can be?

- And I'm still not registered as a MD here! How unfair...

- Being right may be costly...

- Keeping face costs nothing but too often it is worth nothing.

- There are some good smart doctors in Thailand but this not a blanket for all.

Edited September 25, 2013 by ABCer

[David48]

Actually, David, I remember one thing directly related to medical aspect of your OP.

<snip>

I don't know why ... but that post made me smile.

Nice story.

My Mum was epileptic after a major stroke ... so I know what you mean.

Thanks for the contribution ...

[benalibina]

Years ago i had been diagnosed with thrombosis. Just before i needed to fly back home. Bloodtest to check INR level. Doctor told that if INR level is at certain level after some tests, above 2, than it needs to be reconfirmed again after 2 days with another test before i could fly. 10 days later, on a friday, 2.2 it came out after test. Doctor told me i am free now to fly home. Hmmmm what about reconfirmtiontest then i asked in 2 days time, as you told me before. She replied no problem ! Asked why ? She replied that thai people dont like to go to hospitals on a sunday ???? I said ok, than i come monday for the reconfirmationtest. OK she said.

[farang000999]

So after all of that you still paid for it? Thais never lose do they.

[farang000999]

Just want to say that my experiences in American hospitals and doctors and dentists has not been good. In the US, it is almost all third party payers so the patients and doctors all want their money's worth. Doctors try to sell you as much as they can even though it is unnecessary all under the guise of "well you never know" or "it can't hurt" and "I'm just trying not to get sued". So America pays twice as much as the rest of the developed world for healthcare and has a lower life expectancy. The Thai version of this is double pricing for farang and offering you 20 different tablets that you will never take every time you get sick.

What are things like in Europe and Australia? Much better I imagine.

[David48]

So after all of that you still paid for it? Thais never lose do they.

Are you referring to me ... the OP.

Or the poster above you?

[farang000999]

I was referring to you.

[David48]

So after all of that you still paid for it? Thais never lose do they.

Are you referring to me ... the OP.

Or the poster above you?

I was referring to you.

No ... we paid nothing.

Just the blood sample was taken ... it was never tested.