Any Americans in Thailand giving up US citizenship ?

[Nana Cowboy]

Bizarre that you are having a go at the BBC. There's a massive coterie of Americans that visit the BBC website daily looking for an unbiased view of, in particular, matters American. It seems the US media has drawn partisan battle lines these days. That's a democratic deficit going on right there.

I am one of those people.

oh man, hey you should hear me have a go at the new york times or CNN. the BBC is down the list from many US wire services I think, but they all stink in my view and I dont trust any of them

[Forethat]

Bizarre that you are having a go at the BBC. There's a massive coterie of Americans that visit the BBC website daily looking for an unbiased view of, in particular, matters American. It seems the US media has drawn partisan battle lines these days. That's a democratic deficit going on right there.

I am one of those people.

oh man, hey you should hear me have a go at the new york times or CNN. the BBC is down the list from many US wire services I think, but they all stink in my view and I dont trust any of them

How about Fox News then...

[snake24]

but but but........... i thought USA was the best country in the world why would anyone give it up??

When you see your next movie, hear your next song think of US. LOL

We put alot of effort into it...and we appreciate your cynicism.

You might also check into the numbers a bit...you might be disappointed to find that there are fewer defectors than you think.

As far as I know, All nationalities are just flooding into America...have been for a few hundred years. Millions of people worldwide giving up their homeland for the Red White and Blue...vs a few idiots. Numbers do not lie. Do I needo to give you references....or you can just concede. Because it is going to be phenomenal.

What makes you think i would be listening to some pop trash song by twerking miley cyrus for example? Or watch something from hollyweird.

No doubt all of this takes up prime time bill board space on almost every country in the world i'll give you that they have the money to pay for all of that but some ppl don't care for that.

Btw if what you show is true this begs my question even stronger don't you think? What were those ppl smoking to want to give up their US citizenship. Perhaps you could enlighten us.

[Nana Cowboy]

How about Fox News then...

Bizarre that you are having a go at the BBC. There's a massive coterie of Americans that visit the BBC website daily looking for an unbiased view of, in particular, matters American. It seems the US media has drawn partisan battle lines these days. That's a democratic deficit going on right there.

I am one of those people.

oh man, hey you should hear me have a go at the new york times or CNN. the BBC is down the list from many US wire services I think, but they all stink in my view and I dont trust any of them

all the same to me

[phuketrichard]

A new law called the Foreign Accounts Tax Compliance Act (Fatca) will, from 1 July next year, require all financial institutions around the world to report directly to the US Internal Revenue Service (IRS) all the assets and incomes of any US citizens with $50,000 (£31,000) on their books. The US could withhold 30% of dividends and interest payments due to the banks that don't comply.

So you split your assets up among a variety of banks in Thailand and never let a balance exceed 50 k usd so the banks report nothing...it would be wise to have several accounts anyway since eventually the Thai version of FDIC only insures each bank account up to 1 million baht.....unless you are a very wealthy person I don't see the problem. As for spending 5000 usd to pay someone to file your taxes then somebody is either very lazy, dumb, or rich. As previous poster said there are all kinds of tax software programs available.

Can't imagine giving up my usa citizenship and unlike someone in the article who says she doesn't know any Americans who are NOT considering it I frankly don't know any who ARE considering.

If u hold over $10,000 in ALL your foreign bank acocunts u need to file.

plus if u oen 10% or more shares in a foreign company

[Naam]

CheapCharly

What s wrong in this world?

we are foreigners (Germans) having lived for 15 years quite happily in the Greatest Nation on Earth™ before we moved to Thailand. that most Americans don't know the difference between Thailand and Taiwan or think that Singapore has been handed back in 1997 to the Chinese communists did not bother us at all. even questions "you are Germans, do you know by chance Hans Müller who lives in Germany?" did not shock but only amuse us after a couple of years.

having lived in more than half a dozen countries we only know one country who's inhabitants were more friendly and helpful than our neighbour Americans.

Edited September 30, 2013 by Rimmer
Reported flame

[Somnambulist]

Another option is to get a second passport and keep the U.S. one. The last time I checked, which was several years ago, Uruguay and Ecuador were giving second passports to foreigners who had lived there for five years. Uruguay is boring but Ecuador has possibilities. I was tempted but in the end chose Thailand instead.

[BillyBobThai]

No, not now, not ever. As bad as things are back home, we are still better off than most of the world.

[dighambara]

What's the big deal? US taxes aren't high, and they are easy to do. There is a company that makes software called TurboTax which will do your taxes question by question style. It covers everything AFAIK. It takes me about an hour to get my stuff together, and about an hour to run TurboTax. Then I file electronically.

I think TurboTax costs about $25 or $30. Install it, run it, and it goes step by step until complete. Many professional tax return places use it.

$5,000 for a tax return? Licensed tax preparers aren't attorneys although some CPA's do taxes for the rich.

I would never give up my citizenship. There are too many benefits and not nearly all of them financial.

After I give all of my money to a bar girl, it's a place to call home, haha.

Never.

The subject of the article is skewed to elicit responses from a specific audience.

US Citizenship is not easy to give up. A person can officially request to have his citizenship rescinded, but the US State Department must act to make it official.

Take the King of Thailand as an example. When he became King, he was required to give up his US citizenship and he wrote a formal request. The US State Department has never acted on that request. Some years back, a US Embassy representative stated flatly that if the King should request one, he would receive a US passport, as the US Government still considers him to be a citizen.

As for US taxes, yes, US Taxes are among the highest in the world, with the least return. Plus a CPA can be hired for as little as $100. When I retired, my income fell below the required reporting level. However, after a few years the IRS began demanding that I report. Thus I had to file for the previous 5 years and have filed ever since - using a CPA keeps the IRS off my back. FYI, my income is still below the required reporting level.

[bunta71]

Giving up American citizenship means less options in life. Up to you.

[bonobo]

As for US taxes, yes, US Taxes are among the highest in the world, with the least return. Plus a CPA can be hired for as little as $100. When I retired, my income fell below the required reporting level. However, after a few years the IRS began demanding that I report. Thus I had to file for the previous 5 years and have filed ever since - using a CPA keeps the IRS off my back. FYI, my income is still below the required reporting level.

Actually, of the 34 OECD countries, the US ranks at number 32 as far as tax burden.

[amankmr17]

I suspect most however are very wealthy liberals who are protecting their big incomes by giving up US citizenship.

[slipperylobster]

but but but........... i thought USA was the best country in the world why would anyone give it up??

When you see your next movie, hear your next song think of US. LOL

We put alot of effort into it...and we appreciate your cynicism.

You might also check into the numbers a bit...you might be disappointed to find that there are fewer defectors than you think.

As far as I know, All nationalities are just flooding into America...have been for a few hundred years. Millions of people worldwide giving up their homeland for the Red White and Blue...vs a few idiots. Numbers do not lie. Do I needo to give you references....or you can just concede. Because it is going to be phenomenal.

What makes you think i would be listening to some pop trash song by twerking miley cyrus for example? Or watch something from hollyweird.

No doubt all of this takes up prime time bill board space on almost every country in the world i'll give you that they have the money to pay for all of that but some ppl don't care for that.

Btw if what you show is true this begs my question even stronger don't you think? What were those ppl smoking to want to give up their US citizenship. Perhaps you could enlighten us.

Sure is lonely at the top.

Point is ...you are listening and viewing (music and movies).... like it or not.

You speak of only a few...there is no stampede of people trying to climb onto the last boat out of the USA and throwing their passports into the sea.

Smoke less...and enjoy life more.. yeeeeeeeeeee haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah

[slipperylobster]

CheapCharly

What s wrong in this world?

most Americans don't know the difference between Thailand and Taiwan

what the hay are you babbling about. you sound pretty dull between the ears to think that.

[Trembly]

Giving up U.S. citizenship is & always will be a personal choice. I am certain that anyone who does this goes through a great deal of soul-searching before actually doing it.

Once done, however, there's no going back. A decade or so ago, a U.S. retired military chap gave up his citizenship to become an Australian citizen. A couple of years later, DFAS found out & canceled his retirement payments; they also stuck him with a bill for the years of payments received since the citizenship change. He appealed all the way to the SCOTUS & lost. There is one exception to this rule: Filipino nationals are allowed to retain their Philippines citizenship while simultaneously receiving military retirement checks.

But non-citizens can join the US military. It would be strange were they unable to draw retirement after being allowed to join and serve their 20 years.

Non-citizens of any country retain earned US military retirements. However, renouncing your US citizenship does forfeit your military pension.

Sorry Bonobo (post #85), but you're wrong. There may be exceptions here & there, but in general the military views dual citizenship as "split loyalties."

Yes, it is strange & doesn't sound fair; hence the case that went all the way to the SCOTUS.

The reason Filipinos are treated differently is due to an agreement worked out between the U.S. & the Philippines back when the U.S. owned the Subic Naval Shipyard. We needed military recruits, had a long & warm history with Filipinos, & kind-of-sort-of occupied (not legally, but in many respects) Subic Bay.

But don't take my word on this. I recommend that any military retiree who's considering becoming a citizen of another country first consult with a lawyer to ascertain whether or not he'll lose his retirement & VA disability (if he's receiving it).

For a very long time, non-US citizens with green cards have been able to enlist in the US military but are barred from being commissioned or warrant officers. Since 2012 refugees and those with valid asylum status in the USA also became eligible for enlistment under MAVNI.

There is no obligation or guarantee that they will acquire US citizenship during service, although many do in order to become eligible for promotion. On top of that, I suspect that joining the US military was probably part of a plan to maximise chances of being granted US citizenship for many of those who enlisted as non-US citizens.

Therefore it is perfectly feasible that there will be pension drawing ex-US-servicemen who are not and have never been US citizens. This is not the same as those who were US citizens through all or some parts of their service, who later relinquished US citizenship.

Edited October 1, 2013 by Trembly

[Trembly]

I wish the IRS good luck in enforcing the Fatca. Opening offshore accounts outside of Thailand is easy. I can think of a few tax havens that won't be eager to disclose such information. How on earth is the IRS going to find out if a financial institution in a given country is providing accurate information on whether an individual even has an account with them? A lot of countries already see the US as the world's bully, and now that the bully happens to be in financial distress, I imagine many will see it as an opportunity to say "no can do," if in less explicit terms.

dear Sir,

with all [un]due respect this is to certify that you possess a wealth of no idea about U.S. citizens or U.S. persons (there's a difference) opening bank accounts outside Thailand "easily".

You are right, I am not sure why I rushed to conclude that it is easy for all nationalities just because it is easy for some, but if you'll indulge me, in what countries have you tried and been denied?

possessing both German and Swiss citizenship i have never been denied opening a bank account. but i have a bunch of American friends who are in deep trouble not establishing accounts outside of U.S. jurisdiction but even keeping those accounts which they have maintained since many years.

for the record: even for non-U.S. citizens it has become very tedious to establish bank accounts when assets to be transferred are exceeding "peanuts amounts". the times are long gone when bankers bowed deeply seeing a few million cash dollars in a suitcase which the applicant presented. today this applicant will see a banker shaking his head and hear "sorry Sir/Madame!" and that applies even to non-cash transfers from one bank to another.

only recently a friend of mine was grilled by the compliance department of a bank because he wanted to diversify some cash to reduce risk from one Singapore bank to another. he had to comply with the silliest demands in order that his transfer of slightly less than half a million €UR was accepted.

it's all based on OECD regulations "KYC" (Know Your Client/Customer). as far as cash transactions are concerned Thailand is still a "paradise". nobody blinks or shows any reaction if you deposit or withdraw a few million Baht. how long that will last is anybody's guess.

KY your Client (if he/she is American)

[SeabagsFull]

For a very long time, non-US citizens with green cards have been able to enlist in the US military but are barred from being commissioned or warrant officers. Since 2012 refugees and those with valid asylum status in the USA also became eligible for enlistment under MAVNI.

Giving up U.S. citizenship is & always will be a personal choice. I am certain that anyone who does this goes through a great deal of soul-searching before actually doing it.

Once done, however, there's no going back. A decade or so ago, a U.S. retired military chap gave up his citizenship to become an Australian citizen. A couple of years later, DFAS found out & canceled his retirement payments; they also stuck him with a bill for the years of payments received since the citizenship change. He appealed all the way to the SCOTUS & lost. There is one exception to this rule: Filipino nationals are allowed to retain their Philippines citizenship while simultaneously receiving military retirement checks.

There is no obligation or guarantee that they will acquire US citizenship during service, although many do in order to become eligible for promotion. On top of that, I suspect that joining the US military was probably part of a plan to maximise chances of being granted US citizenship for many of those who enlisted as non-US citizens.

Therefore it is perfectly feasible that there will be pension drawing ex-US-servicemen who are not and have never been US citizens. This is not the same as those who were US citizens through all or some parts of their service, who later relinquished US citizenship.

Trembly #136, you are partially correct.

Non-citizens can join the U.S. military provided they obtained their PR card after their 14th birthday, but they must attain U.S. citizenship before their enlistment expires (i.e., they cannot reenlist). Waivers are available based on certain criteria (e.g., humanitarian reasons, operational commitments, etc.); all requests must be endorsed by their CO. During the first week of Boot Camp, these enlistees must sign a letter of acknowledgment of the citizenship condition.

If a non-citizen somehow makes it all the way to retirement, then they are considered retired & can receive retired pay.

The legal issues regarding retirement deal with whether the person is "retired" or is "entitled to retired pay." If "retired," then their payments are considered pensions & normally won't be effected by relinquishing citizenship.

Non-regular service members (i.e., Reservists) who yield their U.S. citizenship after earning enough credits to retire but before age 60, are considered retired & will collect their pensions.

Note that all officers must be a U.S.citizen before they can be commissioned.

A U.S. citizen attaining a second dual citizenship will not lose their retired pay, providing that the "other" citizenship is with a country not directing hostilites at the U.S. How this is determined is a guessing game. In recent court cases, retirees from Sweden & Finland (I believe these were the countries) won their right to continue receiving the payments, based on findings that the countries were deemed "friendly" to the U.S. If someone from e.g., Syria were to try this, all bets are that they'd lose.

Additional info: Social Security is a separate animal. According to http://voices.yahoo.com/what-social-security-benefits-if-retire-1567559.html?cat=3, yielding U.S. citizenship does not automatically curtail your benefits. It all depends on the country. Refer to the link for counrty-specific restrictions.

Edited October 2, 2013 by Rimmer
Please do not post in weird fornts,

[Forethat]

KY your Client (if he/she is American)

Actually, it is Know Your Customer.

[Forethat]

CheapCharly

What s wrong in this world?

most Americans don't know the difference between Thailand and Taiwan

what the hay are you babbling about. you sound pretty dull between the ears to think that.

I hate to admit it, but surveys has revealed pretty grim numbers regarding Americans.

Many studies continue to relay sobering facts about the state of our science and math education in both the United States and the United Kingdom. A recent study compared math and science scores of 12 to 13 year olds from each US state to their counterparts in both the developed and developing world. While it conveyed some good information, namely that the US and UK are doing better than in previous years, it still showed that compared to countries such as Singapore, Taiwan, Japan and China even the best US states and England still lag behind. The good news for England however, is that you've outperformed the US in science scores. This might be due in part to the fact that half of all US citizens believe that humans coexisted with dinosaurs, or the 25% who don't know the Earth revolves around the sun, and the 58% who cannot calculate a 10% tip on a restaurant bill. With this poor state of basic knowledge, how can we hope to survive the ever growing complexities of modern life?

Edited October 1, 2013 by Forethat

[manarak]

Citizenship should never be a factor when opening an account. International agreements and regulations requires the bank to verify the identity of a customer. As long as the customer meets all other requirements there are no grounds to reject.

For this reason, verifying your identity with a Swiss, German or American passport is irrelevant. Similarly, unless you are able to verify residency you'd have to settle for one of the offshore banking alternatives, regardless of Swiss, Thai or Nigerian nationality.

Most banks (even Thai) monitor transfers on a wide scale, wider than most customers are aware of. This includes local, domestic and international transfers.

If you want to get sucked up in this boring world, here's a good place to start:

http://www.fatf-gafi.org/

errrmmm... I don't know what you exactly mean when you write "Citizenship should never be a factor"

If you mean that in a perfect world, it shouldn't matter, you are right.

If you mean that right now, citizenship doesn't matter when opening bank accounts, you are plain wrong.

What happens now is that the US of A are blackmailing banks all over the world to coerce them into breaking the Law, i.e. they force banks to report accounts of US persons to the US government. If banks choose to actually follow the Law and not reveal customer data to third parties without a proper court order, the US will have the bank/country ostracized from the international financial system.

[Forethat]

Citizenship should never be a factor when opening an account. International agreements and regulations requires the bank to verify the identity of a customer. As long as the customer meets all other requirements there are no grounds to reject.

For this reason, verifying your identity with a Swiss, German or American passport is irrelevant. Similarly, unless you are able to verify residency you'd have to settle for one of the offshore banking alternatives, regardless of Swiss, Thai or Nigerian nationality.

Most banks (even Thai) monitor transfers on a wide scale, wider than most customers are aware of. This includes local, domestic and international transfers.

If you want to get sucked up in this boring world, here's a good place to start:

http://www.fatf-gafi.org/

errrmmm... I don't know what you exactly mean when you write "Citizenship should never be a factor"

If you mean that in a perfect world, it shouldn't matter, you are right.

If you mean that right now, citizenship doesn't matter when opening bank accounts, you are plain wrong.

What happens now is that the US of A are blackmailing banks all over the world to coerce them into breaking the Law, i.e. they force banks to report accounts of US persons to the US government. If banks choose to actually follow the Law and not reveal customer data to third parties without a proper court order, the US will have the bank/country ostracized from the international financial system.

In what aspect is my statement, that nationality should not be factor when you open an account in case you comply with the other requirements, relevant in a discussion regarding US attempts to collect tax on assets held in foreign accounts? If your application for an account is rejected it is because you fail to meet the requirements, not because of your nationality.

The issue, in my opinion, is not that the American government is "bullying" (your term) financial institutions around the world to reveal information regarding assets; the issue is that a large number of americans fail to appreciate the tax laws of their own country.

[Smokin Joe]

KY your Client (if he/she is American)

Took a minute to sink in.

[manarak]

Citizenship should never be a factor when opening an account. International agreements and regulations requires the bank to verify the identity of a customer. As long as the customer meets all other requirements there are no grounds to reject.

For this reason, verifying your identity with a Swiss, German or American passport is irrelevant. Similarly, unless you are able to verify residency you'd have to settle for one of the offshore banking alternatives, regardless of Swiss, Thai or Nigerian nationality.

Most banks (even Thai) monitor transfers on a wide scale, wider than most customers are aware of. This includes local, domestic and international transfers.

If you want to get sucked up in this boring world, here's a good place to start:

http://www.fatf-gafi.org/

errrmmm... I don't know what you exactly mean when you write "Citizenship should never be a factor"

If you mean that in a perfect world, it shouldn't matter, you are right.

If you mean that right now, citizenship doesn't matter when opening bank accounts, you are plain wrong.

What happens now is that the US of A are blackmailing banks all over the world to coerce them into breaking the Law, i.e. they force banks to report accounts of US persons to the US government. If banks choose to actually follow the Law and not reveal customer data to third parties without a proper court order, the US will have the bank/country ostracized from the international financial system.

In what aspect is my statement, that nationality should not be factor when you open an account in case you comply with the other requirements, relevant in a discussion regarding US attempts to collect tax on assets held in foreign accounts? If your application for an account is rejected it is because you fail to meet the requirements, not because of your nationality.

The issue, in my opinion, is not that the American government is "bullying" (your term) financial institutions around the world to reveal information regarding assets; the issue is that a large number of americans fail to appreciate the tax laws of their own country.

so?

a good reason to ignore foreign laws? or?

if the US are angry about their citizens, why don't they just revoke their passport as they did for Snowden?

[manarak]

KY your Client (if he/she is American)

Took a minute to sink in.

sometimes it is necessary to grease the hands wheels

[Morakot]

I suppose for some Americans it's "news" that any Americans even LIVE abroad.

What is "abroad"?

Actually is this article not one-side? Are there not supposed to be concrete benefits for being a US tax payer?

Edited October 2, 2013 by Morakot

[Naam]

CheapCharly

What s wrong in this world?

most Americans don't know the difference between Thailand and Taiwan

what the hay are you babbling about. you sound pretty dull between the ears to think that.

right you are! some "dulling" did occur after living 15 years in The Greatest Nation on Earth™.

[Trembly]

KY your Client (if he/she is American)

Actually, it is Know Your Customer.

OK, KY your Customer (if he/she is American) then.

[Trembly]

Citizenship should never be a factor when opening an account. International agreements and regulations requires the bank to verify the identity of a customer. As long as the customer meets all other requirements there are no grounds to reject.

For this reason, verifying your identity with a Swiss, German or American passport is irrelevant. Similarly, unless you are able to verify residency you'd have to settle for one of the offshore banking alternatives, regardless of Swiss, Thai or Nigerian nationality.

Most banks (even Thai) monitor transfers on a wide scale, wider than most customers are aware of. This includes local, domestic and international transfers.

If you want to get sucked up in this boring world, here's a good place to start:

http://www.fatf-gafi.org/

errrmmm... I don't know what you exactly mean when you write "Citizenship should never be a factor"

If you mean that in a perfect world, it shouldn't matter, you are right.

If you mean that right now, citizenship doesn't matter when opening bank accounts, you are plain wrong.

What happens now is that the US of A are blackmailing banks all over the world to coerce them into breaking the Law, i.e. they force banks to report accounts of US persons to the US government. If banks choose to actually follow the Law and not reveal customer data to third parties without a proper court order, the US will have the bank/country ostracized from the international financial system.

In what aspect is my statement, that nationality should not be factor when you open an account in case you comply with the other requirements, relevant in a discussion regarding US attempts to collect tax on assets held in foreign accounts? If your application for an account is rejected it is because you fail to meet the requirements, not because of your nationality.

The issue, in my opinion, is not that the American government is "bullying" (your term) financial institutions around the world to reveal information regarding assets; the issue is that a large number of americans fail to appreciate the tax laws of their own country.

Whichever way you wish to slice it, FATCA amounts to strong-arming non-US banks into doing the IRS' job "or else we're going to slap a 30% withholding tax on you". Call it what you will.

Edited October 2, 2013 by Trembly

[Cheapcharly]

My bank told me it s not their business to make tax for USA citizen.

The guy told me it s not fair to accuse banks to hide money.

He told me for this reason they don't want USA person any more as customers and they can take their money and go away.

Thanks to fatca!

He added, one time lot of people wanted go to USA and now people want leave the USA.

With this government shutdown and the 17 debt, it's clear the USA is on the path to fail. One day any USA person will have to carry a tattoo with their ssn number on their forearm. And all expat will be required to come back to the USA a least every 6 months in case there is a warrant against them. If not, they will be wanted worldwide for tax evasion.

(criminals will not comply with fbar, so next step is to against the person physically )

This country is turning very bad . what I see coming is the confiscation of your wealth in the name of the patriotism act before a total USA bankrupt. Your money in your bank will be simply wiped out. They will take 50% of your retirement saving and from any current or saving account. Then you will see mobilization with gas, then gun and real bullets like Greece. nobody will bail you out, because nobody like the USA really due to prism and other craps you made us endure(2008 crisis) ,.. . You will be on your own. So guys you are deeply screwed if you fail.

It s really a shame for all of you but it s time to ditch your blue passport before your government eat you alive. Get a Thai one.

[pomchop]

He added, one time lot of people wanted go to USA and now people want leave the USA.

Yeah sure there are a few that want to leave the USA but the LINE to get into the USA is way way way longer and always has been and likely will remain that way. America is many things to many people and it is far far far from perfect.....BUT...it is still an incredible country and has been the DREAM of millions of people worldwide for DECADES to become an American citizen.