Work Permits for volunteer work.

[Rorri]

Ok, as boring as this is, as WP's for volunteers has been a topic many times before, this one is very specific. Do you need a WP to do volunteer Police and/or immigration work?

[ubonjoe]

According to the law yes.

[Soutpeel]

According to the law yes.

But of course what happens in practice may be completely different, but yes technically/legally a WP is required

[Rorri]

Thanx people, it is as I thought. But have been having a debate on another site, so thought I'd find out. I did try the Labour Dept. site, but guess what, could find nothing regarding WP's.

[paz]

As someone else posted in another thread on the same subject.

To me it seems that, since Thai Police operates under the excutive arm of the Thai government, Foreign police volunteers legally fall under case 7 below.

From WORKING OF ALIENS ACT, B.E. 2521 (1978)

Section 4. This Act does not apply to performance of specific duty by aliens in the Kingdom in the following capacities:

(1) as members of a diplomatic mission;

(2) as members of a consular mission;

(3) as representatives of member countries and officials of the United Nations and specialized institutions;

(4) as personal servants coming from foreign countries to work regularly for persons in (1) or (2) or (3);(5) as persons who perform duty or mission under an agreement concluded between the Government of Thailand and foreign Governments or international organizations;

(6) as persons who perform duty or mission for the benefit of education, culture, art, sports or other activities as may be prescribed by the Royal Decree;

(7) as persons permitted by the Government of Thailand to enter and perform any duty or mission.

Edited September 27, 2013 by paz

[ubonjoe]

The way 7 is written (to enter) would imply that it would require a visa entry or extension for that purpose.

[paz]

The way 7 is written (to enter) would imply that it would require a visa entry or extension for that purpose.

Right. But as far as I know, there is no such Visa or extension type, so I think that subtle debates aside, police and immigration are happy with it, end of story. Maybe a tourist police volunteer can tell more.

[Sceptict11]

The way 7 is written (to enter) would imply that it would require a visa entry or extension for that purpose.

It would also imply that a person was permitted entry for a specific purpose/reason

[Soutpeel]

(6) as persons who perform duty or mission for the benefit of education, culture, art, sports or other activities as may be prescribed by the Royal Decree;

How does a police volunteer fall under this definition ?.....education ?, art ?. sports ? further what is described in the Royal decree ?

[ubonjoe]

The way 7 is written (to enter) would imply that it would require a visa entry or extension for that purpose.

Right. But as far as I know, there is no such Visa or extension type, so I think that subtle debates aside, police and immigration are happy with it, end of story. Maybe a tourist police volunteer can tell more.

There is an extension in police order 777/2551 that fits but normally only for 90 days.

2.27 In the case of performing duties or missions for a government agency, state enterprise, other government agency or embassy or consulate or international organization:

Each permission shall be granted for no more than 90 days.

An exception is made in the case of necessity, on a case-by-case basis, where each permission shall be granted for no more than one year.

(1) Must have been confirmed and requested by a government agency of the departmental level or equivalent; the head of a state enterprise; the head of another government agency; or a police officer of a level equivalent to or higher than the divisional level; or by a military officer of a command unit under the Ministry of Defense, Royal Thai Armed Forces Headquarters, Royal Thai Army, Royal Thai Navy, or Royal Thai Air Force who is a Major General, Rear Admiral, Air Vice Marshal, or officer of a higher ranking; or by an international organization.

(2) In the case of necessity on a case-by-case basis, to stay more than 90 days, the application must be forwarded to the Commander of the Immigration Bureau or Deputy Commander of the Immigration Bureau for consideration

[Soutpeel]

The way 7 is written (to enter) would imply that it would require a visa entry or extension for that purpose.

Right. But as far as I know, there is no such Visa or extension type, so I think that subtle debates aside, police and immigration are happy with it, end of story. Maybe a tourist police volunteer can tell more.

The police & immigration can be as happy as they want but work permits dont fall under either...its the DOL's mandate.

[paz]

The way 7 is written (to enter) would imply that it would require a visa entry or extension for that purpose.

Right. But as far as I know, there is no such Visa or extension type, so I think that subtle debates aside, police and immigration are happy with it, end of story. Maybe a tourist police volunteer can tell more.

The police & immigration can be as happy as they want but work permits dont fall under either...its the DOL's mandate.

Sure but enforcement of the law falls to the Police, parents of Tourist Police. So guess who has the last word?

[Soutpeel]

The way 7 is written (to enter) would imply that it would require a visa entry or extension for that purpose.

Right. But as far as I know, there is no such Visa or extension type, so I think that subtle debates aside, police and immigration are happy with it, end of story. Maybe a tourist police volunteer can tell more.

Allow me to quote something I read on another wedsite (not sure if I can post the link, relating to Phuket specifically, it seems to me that Police commanders are making decision out side of their mandate, the goverment department which decides who does or doesnt need a WP is the DOL.

The Phuket Foreign TPVs need a Work Permit to perform their duties

True – Strictly speaking, according to Thai Labour Law, all volunteer work requires a Work Permit. This includes those performing volunteer duties with the Thai police. In practice, no Work Permits have been issued to TPVs because the relevant police commander has publically stated that foreign police volunteers do not need Work Permits. However, to ensure peace of mind, the Phuket Foreign TPVs are actively seeking to obtain Work Permits for their duties.

[paz]

(6) as persons who perform duty or mission for the benefit of education, culture, art, sports or other activities as may be prescribed by the Royal Decree;

How does a police volunteer fall under this definition ?.....education ?, art ?. sports ? further what is described in the Royal decree ?

I said case 7, read above.

[paz]

The way 7 is written (to enter) would imply that it would require a visa entry or extension for that purpose.

Right. But as far as I know, there is no such Visa or extension type, so I think that subtle debates aside, police and immigration are happy with it, end of story. Maybe a tourist police volunteer can tell more.

Allow me to quote something I read on another wedsite (not sure if I can post the link, relating to Phuket specifically, it seems to me that Police commanders are making decision out side of their mandate, the goverment department which decides who does or doesnt need a WP is the DOL.

The Phuket Foreign TPVs need a Work Permit to perform their duties

True – Strictly speaking, according to Thai Labour Law, all volunteer work requires a Work Permit. This includes those performing volunteer duties with the Thai police. In practice, no Work Permits have been issued to TPVs because the relevant police commander has publically stated that foreign police volunteers do not need Work Permits. However, to ensure peace of mind, the Phuket Foreign TPVs are actively seeking to obtain Work Permits for their duties.

I think it would be better said, "according to their interpretation of Thai Labour Law". As you should know, any foreigner interpretation of Thai law is wrong when it differs from one given by a Thai officer .

Anyway, how old is that Gazetter piece? I bet the house that TPVs can "actively seek" a WP, but not get it.

[Soutpeel]

The way 7 is written (to enter) would imply that it would require a visa entry or extension for that purpose.

Right. But as far as I know, there is no such Visa or extension type, so I think that subtle debates aside, police and immigration are happy with it, end of story. Maybe a tourist police volunteer can tell more.

The police & immigration can be as happy as they want but work permits dont fall under either...its the DOL's mandate.

Sure but enforcement of the law falls to the Police, parents of Tourist Police. So guess who has the last word?

Enforcement is not under the police per se, if this was the case one would see large numbers of farangs in Thailand being arrested for working without WP's, seems to the police (immigration police) get involved on the request of other goverment departments, they are not actively enforcing anything

[paz]

Enforcement is not under the police per se, if this was the case one would see large numbers of farangs in Thailand being arrested for working without WP's, seems to the police (immigration police) get involved on the request of other goverment departments, they are not actively enforcing anything

Well, beside that we do see a number of foreigners arrested because working without a WP, even without any involvment from "other departments", if you want to believe that is not right that TPVs do volunteer work without a WP, good for you, personally I think you haven't understood much about Thailand.

[Soutpeel]

The way 7 is written (to enter) would imply that it would require a visa entry or extension for that purpose.

Right. But as far as I know, there is no such Visa or extension type, so I think that subtle debates aside, police and immigration are happy with it, end of story. Maybe a tourist police volunteer can tell more.

Allow me to quote something I read on another wedsite (not sure if I can post the link, relating to Phuket specifically, it seems to me that Police commanders are making decision out side of their mandate, the goverment department which decides who does or doesnt need a WP is the DOL.

The Phuket Foreign TPVs need a Work Permit to perform their duties

True – Strictly speaking, according to Thai Labour Law, all volunteer work requires a Work Permit. This includes those performing volunteer duties with the Thai police. In practice, no Work Permits have been issued to TPVs because the relevant police commander has publically stated that foreign police volunteers do not need Work Permits. However, to ensure peace of mind, the Phuket Foreign TPVs are actively seeking to obtain Work Permits for their duties.

I think it would be better said, "according to their interpretation of Thai Labour Law". As you should know, any foreigner interpretation of Thai law is wrong when it differs from one given by a Thai officer .

Anyway, how old is that Gazetter piece? I bet the house that TPVs can "actively seek" a WP, but not get it.

Knowing the english languge version (not the Thai version) of the Thai labour law quite well, I can tell you there are no "exclusions" for the topic under discussion detailed, futher the police are not correct personages to be making the interpretation, once again we are back to the department labour being the correct goverment department to make this interpretation, not the Poo Yai police commander in a specific area, so what your looking for is statement by the DOL which states a WP is or isnt required in this instance

[paz]

Knowing the english languge version (not the Thai version) of the Thai labour law quite well, I can tell you there are no "exclusions" for the topic under discussion detailed, futher the police are not correct personages to be making the interpretation, once again we are back to the department labour being the correct goverment department to make this interpretation, not the Poo Yai police commander in a specific area, so what your looking for is statement by the DOL which states a WP is or isnt required in this instance

Ok, and on the the day you can show that the DoL has issued such a statement (whatever it says), I'll pay you the larger dinner you can eat, drinks included

This is Thailand, they do conflict when they need to, not just because some Foreigner likes to wear an uniform, this privilege has been conceded already, let's move on.

[Soutpeel]

Enforcement is not under the police per se, if this was the case one would see large numbers of farangs in Thailand being arrested for working without WP's, seems to the police (immigration police) get involved on the request of other goverment departments, they are not actively enforcing anything

Well, beside that we do see a number of foreigners arrested because working without a WP, even without any involvment from "other departments", if you want to believe that is not right that TPVs do volunteer work without a WP, good for you, personally I think you haven't understood much about Thailand.

Lets suppose for a minute that the proper and correct legal stand point in this instance is that WP are required, which I am inclined to believe is the correct interpretation, dont you think it rather hypercritical if people are doing this voluneering wiith the police without WP as in fact they are breaking the law themselves ?

Personally I dont give a rats if they they do or dont, have a WP, I work here legally and have the required WP, but the one thing I have learned about Thailand is that just because someone tells you something doesnt make it true even if they are a big Poo Yai in the police. as if push came to shove, these guys would be dropped in the sh*t in a heart beat by the same Poo Yai's becasue they didnt have the required bit of paper, the risk is on the people doing this not on the Police

[paz]

Enforcement is not under the police per se, if this was the case one would see large numbers of farangs in Thailand being arrested for working without WP's, seems to the police (immigration police) get involved on the request of other goverment departments, they are not actively enforcing anything

Well, beside that we do see a number of foreigners arrested because working without a WP, even without any involvment from "other departments", if you want to believe that is not right that TPVs do volunteer work without a WP, good for you, personally I think you haven't understood much about Thailand.

Lets suppose for a minute that the proper and correct legal stand point in this instance is that WP are required, which I am inclined to believe is the correct interpretation, dont you think it rather hypercritical if people are doing this voluneering wiith the police without WP as in fact they are breaking the law themselves ?

Personally I dont give a rats if they they do or dont, have a WP, I work here legally and have the required WP, but the one thing I have learned about Thailand is that just because someone tells you something doesnt make it true even if they are a big Poo Yai in the police. as if push came to shove, these guys would be dropped in the sh*t in a heart beat by the same Poo Yai's becasue they didnt have the required bit of paper, the risk is on the people doing this not on the Police

Sorry I will not talk on suppositions. I just happen to think no "push will,come to shove" ever for TPVs that behave as required, and that they take no risk whatsoever. You can think differently then show me how wrong I was when it will happen. Other than that I'll leave the last word to you as it seems you like to want.

[Rorri]

As someone else posted in another thread on the same subject.

To me it seems that, since Thai Police operates under the excutive arm of the Thai government, Foreign police volunteers legally fall under case 7 below.

From WORKING OF ALIENS ACT, B.E. 2521 (1978)

Section 4. This Act does not apply to performance of specific duty by aliens in the Kingdom in the following capacities:

(1) as members of a diplomatic mission;

(2) as members of a consular mission;

(3) as representatives of member countries and officials of the United Nations and specialized institutions;

(4) as personal servants coming from foreign countries to work regularly for persons in (1) or (2) or (3);(5) as persons who perform duty or mission under an agreement concluded between the Government of Thailand and foreign Governments or international organizations;

(6) as persons who perform duty or mission for the benefit of education, culture, art, sports or other activities as may be prescribed by the Royal Decree;

(7) as persons permitted by the Government of Thailand to enter and perform any duty or mission.

You could be right, but if so, then it needs to be an act or parliament and therefore there should be some document somewhere.

[Rorri]

Enforcement is not under the police per se, if this was the case one would see large numbers of farangs in Thailand being arrested for working without WP's, seems to the police (immigration police) get involved on the request of other goverment departments, they are not actively enforcing anything

Well, beside that we do see a number of foreigners arrested because working without a WP, even without any involvment from "other departments", if you want to believe that is not right that TPVs do volunteer work without a WP, good for you, personally I think you haven't understood much about Thailand.

Lets suppose for a minute that the proper and correct legal stand point in this instance is that WP are required, which I am inclined to believe is the correct interpretation, dont you think it rather hypercritical if people are doing this voluneering wiith the police without WP as in fact they are breaking the law themselves ?

Personally I dont give a rats if they they do or dont, have a WP, I work here legally and have the required WP, but the one thing I have learned about Thailand is that just because someone tells you something doesnt make it true even if they are a big Poo Yai in the police. as if push came to shove, these guys would be dropped in the sh*t in a heart beat by the same Poo Yai's becasue they didnt have the required bit of paper, the risk is on the people doing this not on the Police

Even more interesting is that by employing people without a work permit, then the police are themselves breaking the law and should be taken to task by the DOL.

[NomadJoe]

(6) as persons who perform duty or mission for the benefit of education, culture, art, sports or other activities as may be prescribed by the Royal Decree;

How does a police volunteer fall under this definition ?.....education ?, art ?. sports ? further what is described in the Royal decree ?

You missed "...or other activities.."