UPS vs Surge protector desktop PC

[damole]

I've just offered to help out with tech support at a local NGO here in Chiang Mai. I had a little look in their office today which has two desktops connected via a unprotected ac power strip to the wall.

Should they have a UPS or would a regular Belkin surge protector be good enough? Being an NGO they don't want to spend money unnecessarily.

I have a gaming rig that I bought a UPS for because the power has cut out for anything from a fraction of a second to times measured in minutes but still less than a handful of times when I've been using the PC and would have noticed since I lived where I currently live. There have been a few scheduled power cuts too when the PEA are carrying out maintenance although it's not always known when this is so again it's more or less the same as an unscheduled power cut.

--damole

[chiang mai]

In my view a surge protector (and it doesn't have to be Belkin) will suffice, but you could always ask Tech Support and see what they say.

[Pib]

If you are just looking for "hardware" protection from surges a "good quality" surge protector should work; but a brief loss in power can of course corrupt software/data and possibly damage hardware. A low cost UPS which will probably also have some surge protection built-in would probably be better. Of course they would be better off in having laptop computers because the battery operation would protect from software/data corruption during a loss of power since the battery is actually running the laptop while also being charged by the line voltage...plus the laptop's power adapter helps to shield power surges from getting through to the laptop.

[hellstens]

In my view a surge protector (and it doesn't have to be Belkin) will suffice, but you could always ask Tech Support and see what they say.

But remember the surge protector or UPS MUST be Grounded to work as protector !

Edited October 11, 2013 by hellstens

[Longtooth]

Well, I would say a UPS would be safer. It just charges it's battery on the line side. If that blows from a nearby lightning strike, you have a great chance of being protected. Because from the battery it goes to an inverter that makes the battery power into 220v AC. It's a separate system, just in the same box. Plus, as pointed out already, no trouble from power gliches. If you happen to have a "Square D" brand panel, there is a sweet plug-in surge suppressor that needs two breaker spaces, and it protects everything fed from that panel. 2500 baht. I have both, because I'm ********.

[lopburi3]

UPS would offer both brownout and cut protection and is very cheap. During this time of year power outages due to weather are rare as most trees and lines have already failed. It is early in season and out of rainy season that we have many failures.

[damole]

Thanks for all the suggestions.

I have one of these which is probably overkill given how often I use my gaming PC but then I don't have the same budget constraints they do plus I like cool tech. I also, when I moved in to my condo and got the whole thing renovated, had all new wiring specifically because I wanted the place earthed.

The question I guess is one of cost/benefit and loss of opportunity to use the money elsewhere where is 'needed' more. I live part of the year in India where a UPS for a desktop and surge protectors for anything else is mandatory but in Thailand by comparison the electricity supply at least in inner city (downtown) Chiang Mai seems pretty stable.

The NGO is very small and only has one permanent member of staff, the director, who has her own MacBook Pro. The other computers which comprise the 2 dekstops and 3 laptops, all donated, are used by volunteers and hopefully for teaching IT in the future.

On balance I think I will go with surge protectors for now, an improvement at least, and then consider for the future moving to UPSs.

I don't have any control over the earthing (grounding) of the building but a varistor should still be able to supress smaller surges and spikes which would stil be helpful.

cheers

damole

[harrry]

The problem with surge protector is that it is a use once device. They are designed like a fuse and if a signifigent surge occurs the limiting device blows out. Current still flows but the device is unprotected. There is usually a light which is on when protected. If that goes out the board needs replacing as it no longer protects.

[chiang mai]

I think the OP makes the right choice, based on the parameters he set at the start, a couple of hundred baht vs around three thousand seems like a no brainer and he can get a surge protector that can be reset so it's not always a one time usage.

[Pib]

The problem with surge protector is that it is a use once device.  They are designed like a fuse and if a signifigent surge occurs the limiting device blows out.  Current still flows but the device is unprotected.  There is usually a light which is on when protected.  If that goes out the board needs replacing as it no longer protects.

Not really...a varister/MOV device used in surge protection do indeed short extremely briefly to suppress the surge, but they are designed to handle numerous such shorts/surges unless the surge far exceeds the varister/MOV rating for a sufficient time. And varisters/MOV come in different voltage and power ratings which are major factors in determing how large and how many surges can normally be handled before possible failure. It's not one surge and it's no longer any good.

Sent from my Samsung S4 (GT-I9500)

[oldexp]

from my experience a surge protection is mandatory.

I have lost a router and a motherboard due to power spikes. And the UPS too on another occasion.

UPS? Nice to have.

But watch out and read the specs.

I bought mine 3 years ago. Syndome for 4'700 Baht and didn't pay attention. It had no surge protection and blew up. Repair cost 1'800 Baht. Not to talk about its batteries that were almost flat after 2 years and replacing them would have been another 1'300 Baht. Already within guarantee the batteries had to be replaced.

And keep in mind SERVICE is not a strong point here.

[Pib]

I could be coincidence, but since I've installed my whole house surge protector (which I built) on my main circuit box and surge protected power strips (which I modified with 3 MOVs per strip to protect all three line modes), I haven't had any device die due to probable lightning/thunder storms, man-made line surges, etc. I also added surge protection to my two phone lines. Before I added this surge protection I had several devices or power adapters per year go bad...all device failures seemed to power supply/adapter centered. When I lost a ADSL modem, Wifi router, and 2 cordless phones during a thunderstorm which generated a direct strike to my neighbor's house (blew a small in their roof...and the above mentioned devices died with that lightning strike...durn near scared me and the wife to death...deafening noise) that is when I began my DIY surge protection project...I have some electronics background so it wasn't that hard....nothing cosmic about basic surge protection.

[chiang mai]

Am I right in thinking that a half way decent modern consumer unit (switch panel) will provide surge protection but will likely not prevent transients?

[BB1950]

Am I right in thinking that a half way decent modern consumer unit (switch panel) will provide surge protection but will likely not prevent transients?

No, a consumer unit by itself won't provide surge protection or prevent transients.

[chiang mai]

Am I right in thinking that a half way decent modern consumer unit (switch panel) will provide surge protection but will likely not prevent transients?

No, a consumer unit by itself won't provide surge protection or prevent transients.

Umm, I think that's probably not the correct answer, it was more of a rehtorical question although I see someone from CMU lurking on the thread who can probably provide the definitive answer? Certainly the consumer units that I've had installed in houses in the UK do provide surge protection.

Edited October 12, 2013 by chiang mai

[Pib]

A transient is just another word for a surge, spike, etc. Many consumer units do not come with any surge protection....and some do come with surge protection on certain "line modes."

By "line modes" I mean between Line to Neutral, Line to Earth, and Neutral to Earth as a surge can occur on any of the modes, especially from a lighting strike. A nearby lightning strike to ground can cause a surge up through ground to Line or Neutral. Many people think lightning surges occur from lightning actually striking power lines but in most causes it's "induction" to both the Line and Neutral lines when the lightning comes riding in on the lines.

And when it comes to surge protected power strips the ones I've opened and modified usually have one-each low power, low energy, 7mm varister/MOV connected between Line and Neutral...and it varister's voltage rating (the point where it starts to conduct/suppress) is around 510V. 510V is fairly high...so that means a surge/spike/transient would need to reach 510V before the varister started to suppress it. Manufacturers select this rating since it a cheaper varister and much less likely to fail since it just lets surges below 510V pass on by to your devices. And if it's a three-wire power strip the varister may be connected between Line and Earth...but since power strip manufactures know many places are still just wired with two wires/no ground, they still usually connect the MOV between Line and Neutral (but I have seen a couple connect between Line and Earth) which means you have some surge protection between on "one line mode; but you are still unprotected on the other two line modes." But put some lightning bolt pictures on the power strip packaging and say it protects against voltage/lightning surges and people seem to take that as the gospel....and they feel they will be protected from any voltage surge---wrong.

Additionally, a surge protector does "not" protect from low or high "continuous" AC...like the line operating at 180VAC or 250VAC; surge protectors are to protect against those voltage spikes/surges/transients that last in the milliseconds and microseconds ballpark like generated by lightning strikes, a spot welder, a elevator motor turning on and off, a home A/C compressor kicking off and on, etc. Yeap, many of your daily surges on your lines is coming form man-made equipment and a lot depends on where you live....but it's lightning strikes, direct or just nearby, that usually pose the most danger/damage to your devices.

P.S. I've only got one UPS and that runs my DVD Recorder and TrueVisions Settop box. In my area of Bangkok it is not uncommon every few days to loss power for less than a second as the electric company switches/balances electric loads around my area....been going on for years. If this occurs while the wife is recording a Soap show it usually ruins the DVD...not only the episode she was recording but the other episodes on the DVD disc she has not finalized yet. After this occurred twice I bought the UPS. And it works great as we had two such outages while the wife was recording since starting to use the UPS and the DVD didn't miss a beat in the recording. If I used a desktop computer I would use a UPS on it, but I use two laptops which don't even notice power failures since they operate off battery when the line voltage goes off....but I've got surge protection protecting the laptop's power adapters from surges.

Edited October 12, 2013 by Pib

[chiang mai]

My very firm understanding is that the difference between a surge and a transient is the duration of the increase in supply, a transient being a potentially very high spike measured in milliseconds (with the potential to fry circuitary) whereas a surge represents an increase in power but with a lower (and less damaging) peak achieved over a longer duration - as I recall, circa 2005, UK consumer units cater to the latter although I am unclear about the former, presumably similar technology exists here in Thailand.

[Pib]

Guess a lot depends on how technical a person wants to get with a definition, but I think in the layman's mind a surge, spike, or transient all mean about the same thing---stuff that can zap my TV, electronics, etc. Plus, I doubt any of us have the equipment to monitor the duration/size of the nasty stuff riding on power lines during a clear day or during a lightning storm.

[chiang mai]

I apologise if I appear pedantic on this point but I think the difference is important to understand since it is easily defined by tecnology, the problem is the way that goods are marketed, especially here in Asia. My experience on this point comes from managing large scale technology sites that depend on clean power supply and where even nano second variances are of significance.

But from a laymans point of view in Thailand, you are absolutely correct, I think, a fuse or resistor laden circuit such as a commonly sold surge protector bar is adequate.

[damole]

I had been using one of these for my AV system but only today changed to one of these because of the convenience of having UK/universal sockets, shame all the sockets point outwards because that doesn't work for the two power brick/adapters with UK plugs that I bought it for. Luckily I only need 5 of the 8 sockets so I can lose two and still get what I need.

I think the technical term might be 'transient voltage surge' which unsurprisingly gets shortened to either transient or surge, neither of the words by themselves would be etymologically correct.

[Pib]

I had been using one of these for my AV system but only today changed to one of these because of the convenience of having UK/universal sockets, shame all the sockets point outwards because that doesn't work for the two power brick/adapters with UK plugs that I bought it for. Luckily I only need 5 of the 8 sockets so I can lose two and still get what I need.

I think the technical term might be 'transient voltage surge' which unsurprisingly gets shortened to either transient or surge, neither of the words by themselves would be etymologically correct.

So true....Transient Voltage Surge Suppressor (TVSS) is a term heard often when dealing with surge suppression devices...you also hear Surge Protection Device (SPD). Usually a "transient" is considered a faster waveform than a surge waveform, but it gets fuzzy as to where any standardized/agreed to difference exists when it comes to the marketing/selling of surge protection devices since they are focused towards the general population versus electrical engineers.

[Crossy]

No, a consumer unit by itself won't provide surge protection or prevent transients.

Umm, I think that's probably not the correct answer, it was more of a rehtorical question although I see someone from CMU lurking on the thread who can probably provide the definitive answer? Certainly the consumer units that I've had installed in houses in the UK do provide surge protection.

Unless you've specified it, it is highly unlikely that a CU installed in the UK, even very recently, will have surge protection as standard.

Are you sure you're not confusing an RCD with surge protection? (that's the big breaker with a 'test' button)

[chiang mai]

No, a consumer unit by itself won't provide surge protection or prevent transients.

Umm, I think that's probably not the correct answer, it was more of a rehtorical question although I see someone from CMU lurking on the thread who can probably provide the definitive answer? Certainly the consumer units that I've had installed in houses in the UK do provide surge protection.

Unless you've specified it, it is highly unlikely that a CU installed in the UK, even very recently, will have surge protection as standard.

Are you sure you're not confusing an RCD with surge protection? (that's the big breaker with a 'test' button)

Yes you're right, I am indeed thinking of RCD, apologies for any confusion.

[Tywais]

The term TVSS has been phased out in the technical standards and has been replaced with SPD (surge protective device) which has 4 types. Type 2 is equivalent to TVSS. The distinction is primarily the location of the protection devices in the power distribution path.

SPD Type - is used to describe the intended application location of the SPD, either upstream or downstream of the main overcurrent protective device of the facility. SPD Types include:

Type 1- A permanently connected SPD intended for installation between the secondary of the service transformer and the line side of the service disconnect overcurrent device, as well as the load side, including watt-hour meter socket enclosures and intended to be installed without an external overcurrent protective device.

Type 2- A permanently connected SPD intended for installation on the load side of the service disconnect overcurrent device, including SPDs located at the branch panel.

Type 3- Point of utilization SPDs, installed at a minimum conductor length of 10 meters (30 feet) from the electrical service panel; e.g. cord connected, direct plug-in, receptacle type SPDs installed at the utilization equipment being protected. The distance (10 meters) is exclusive of the conductors provided with or used to attach the SPD.

Type 4- Component SPDs, including discrete components as well as component assemblies. Must be tested for the installed location, i.e. Type 1, Type 2, Type 3.

Source NEMA

All three are purported to be fact by some people, even though they run contrary to reality and the laws of nature. The world is full of folklore about many different subjects, even about transient voltage surge suppression (TVSS) devices. Ads for TVSS devices claim that they will solve most power quality problems, even though sags are typically the most common PQ phenomena (as much as 60 to 70 percent) experienced in an industrial facility or residence. This doesn’t seem to affect the millions of dollars of annual sales of such mitigation devices. So, perhaps a little knowledge about such may help to make for “a more educated consumer.”
Surge protector products are primarily designed to eliminate transients (also referred to in the past as “surges”) and sold under the names of TVSS or SPD (surge protection devices). Transients are sub-cycle duration changes in the voltage and current waveforms, often measured in microseconds (millionths of a second). They are often very sneaky PQ disturbances, normally not visible to the human eye until they leave a path of destruction in their wake.
- See more at: http://www.ecmag.com/section/your-business/surge-protection-fact-or-fiction#sthash.9ThI4YDU.dpuf

---------------------------------

The term “surge protector” can describe any device that protects against surges, which are excess voltages — either impulses or sustained AC overvoltages. If you work in an area that receives a lot of lightning or where electric utility power is unreliable, installing surge protectors will greatly reduce damage to equipment in both commercial and residential buildings. The NEC allows, but doesn't require you to install AC surge protection.

Source - ECM

[chiang mai]

See, I knew there'd be a simple explanation.

[IMA_FARANG]

In my view a surge protector (and it doesn't have to be Belkin) will suffice, but you could always ask Tech Support and see what they say.

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A surge protector usually will NOT provide them a battery option that will give them time to save critical files in case of a power failure.

An UPS system should have that capability.

An UPS system should provide a built-in surge protection feature too.

So, depending on what they can afford.... trying to save money" could be a case of "penny wise, pound foolish" here.

If they can afford it, the UPS system would probably be a wiser long term choice.

Just think how they will feel if they have spent several hours on that critical report, and just before they save it, a power failure wipes out all their work.

The UPS system may give them that critical few minutes time to save their work to the herd drive before the report is lost.

If they can afford it, a UPS system is a much better choice for that reason alone.

[Tywais]

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A surge protector usually will NOT provide them a battery option that will give them time to save critical files in case of a power failure.

An UPS system should have that capability.

An UPS system should provide a built-in surge protection feature too.

So, depending on what they can afford.... trying to save money" could be a case of "penny wise, pound foolish" here.

If they can afford it, the UPS system would probably be a wiser long term choice.

I also agree a UPS is the best way to go. You can get an APC for less then 2000 Baht with surge protection built in. http://www.invadeit.co.th/product/ups/apc/be500r-as-back-ups-es-500va-230v-for-ase-p001375/ A good surge arrester power strip can cost over 1000 Baht. Power strips with surge protection

[chiang mai]

And I thirdly agree that an UPS is the way to go, but, the OP states that the customer is a cash strapped NGO hence budget is the primary issue.

[Crossy]

And I thirdly agree that an UPS is the way to go, but, the OP states that the customer is a cash strapped NGO hence budget is the primary issue.

It really depends how much they value their work-in-progress data, there are few things more annoying than a power failure just before (or worse during, as you may lose everything) your save.

I do much of my work from home, if I have no power I can't earn (and SWMBO can't spend). A power failure can cost me >$100 an hour, a surge that destroys my data will cost me significantly more (yes I have multiple backups including cloud data storage).

We have:-

• A whole house surge protection device at the supply intake.
• A Belkin arrestor strip feeding:
  • A 2kVA voltage regulator supplying:
    • A 2kVA UPS which feeds the technology and some lights, about 2 hours autonomy
• A 5kVA genset for longer failures (runs everything except the water heaters and aircon)
• A 20L fuel container

[Pib]

Not only do UPSs cost more than surge protectors, UPSs also come with a cost to maintain...that is, changing the batteries every 2-4 years...and they also may be more susceptible to theft due to their value. All depends on the level of protection, both hardware and software/data, a person needs. And of course man-hours involved in recovery if the hardware/software/data is damaged. A UPS if you can afford it; a surge protector if you can't.