Im trying to understand all this

[buck99]

My TGF's father ran off with another woman leaving a wife, 4 daughters and a son. My TGF was 8 years old at the time (she's 41 now). From what I understand, the father provided no support for the family and would call every few years with no personal contact. My TGF tells of hunger and privation for her and her family during her childhood. Now here is the part I don't understand. He is now in the hospital in serious condition and the entire family including the mother is now holding vigil at his bedside. When I ask my TGF if she has any resentment that her father abandoned them, she says "no its his life and he can do what he wants with it". A very different philosophy than the West where fathers are expected to have responsiblity fo their children.

On another occasion we were discussing the cost of sending my TGF daughter off to college. I suggested that the estranged father be given the opertunity to help in the support of his daughter's education. I was met with an shocked look by TGF and daughter and was told "he has his own family to support". It seems there is little or no expectation of responsiblity from the Thai fathers. Is this the normal mindset in Thai families or just my GF's family?

[CharlieH]

You are approaching this with a western attitude and obligations morals etc, that wont work here, in Asia the mindset is totally different. What you have described in my experience is typicallyThai.

There is and will be many more incidents like this that dont sit well or may seem illogical to a western upbringing and mindset.

You are going to need to be both tolerant and open minded to Thai ways to live here.

Edited October 13, 2013 by CharlieH

[benalibina]

Most likely in the 2 stories you refer to, you probably have not heard the whole truth. Especially in regard to your gf's daughter. Just 1st thing which came up after reading your OP. No offense meant and truly hope my writings are incorrect.

[Stradavarius37]

Don't try to understand it - you'll just get a headache - go have a beer instead.

[krisb]

Save the headaches, just go with the flow.

Sent from my LG-E612 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[Bluetongue]

There is no point in them having an expectation of Thai father's, if they know full well the expectation will never be met. Some Thai men will support their offspring from former partners, usually by handing over a bit of cash directly to them if they are a bit older. When the kid is younger they might provide milk or school uniforms. But they wouldn't give cash to the former partner, at least that has been my observation. I said some, because younger Thai males that father children often take no responsibility at all, the grandparents, maybe. As they are mollycoddled all their lives no-one expects them to do anything. When or if they ever grow up they will never have spare money.

It can be hard to live with especially if you are involved, best bet is to let the family sort it out and hope that karma deals with the fathers, at least that would appear to be what is happening in your tgf fathers case

[zoza]

you probably got to see the best part of the thai husband/dads involvement with their x families, I after looking after the three children for a few years got informed the recent nightly phone calls was daddy asking for money/compensation? at the time I was also informed by knowledgeable t v members that as my girlfriend was still married, I could be in trouble. so in some cases silence is golden.you just have to go with the flow and stick with the values you were brought up with.not easy sometimes but keeps you sane,most of the time.

good luck zoza

[GuestHouse]

Ask the question Cui Bono? To who's benefit.

And there needs to be some benefit driver for this to be so prevalent in Thai society.

My personal opinion is that is the Thai mother, or more specifically the Thai grandmother that benefits - fathers out of the way, daughters with a child to raise, grandmother hooked into the system (she's useful now) daughters sent out to work, kids dumped with grandma, income stream for life.

AND a constant mind game of indebtedness to mum.

Your G/F might very well object to the father of her child being involved in anyway simply because it suits her for him to be out of the picture - the child is her long term security, sealed up nicely when a grandchild comes along.

Think about it another way - there is no welfare, a young woman who gets pregnant outside of marriage is at risk of being left with no support, the poverty your G/F has told you about is a real risk, anyone who thinks about that as a reality would be terrified by the thought of a pregnancy without the support of the father.

Unless there is some other behaviour driver pregnancy outside of marriage would be a serious matter and you'd expect to see cultural norms developing to discourage it - social stigma etc.

But it hardly exists in Thailand, mothers are not schooling their daughters to not get pregnant with the first boyfriend that comes along - But they do put a huge amount of effort into encouraging the dependancy hook into their children. Why?

Cui Bono?

[GuestHouse]

wrt the absent grandfather now on his death bed.

You only know what you see, there is another side to the story that you will not be told.

Observe what you see in the behaviour of your G/F to her child and wrt to the child's fathers, she's behaving the way she was raised to behave.

Observe, it will add up.

[JaiLai]

Try and find a Thai family that is NOT disfunctional - good luck!

As mentioned no one bats an eyelid at how f***** up they ALL are.

[transam]

OP, that all sounds quite normal to me.

Here, no matter how much of a sh_t head the father is he will always be respected. My wife's son is now 18 but his dad paid nothing towards his upkeep, BUT, he is still a film star in the kids eyes.

[willyumiii]

Just like giving birth to a child and leaving the child for Grandmother or Aunt to raise, It is the acceptable and common here.

Two different cultures, two different sets of values.

Who is right?

They both are.

One here.

One there.

You are here now.

Get use to it.

[Songhua]

To a Thai, a father is a father. He never leaves - he simply takes up another life that they are not part of.

This is a very different concept to our western one, and attempting to apply our 'he is the dad, he should be part of his childrens' lives/he should be contributing' type of thinking will only lead to misunderstanding.

It is Thailand, it is normal and it is accepted - indeed the scenario is being played out without fuss or any great concern a million times over at this very moment. Best to take it for what it is and, even if it's happening under your own roof, leave it alone

[seajae]

my wifes first husband took off when he found out she was 2 months pregnant, she wasnt aware he already had another wife at the time until he did so. He never has once been to see his daughter or ask after her and when my wife went o'seas and wanted to take her daughter with her he demanded 100,000 baht or he would not sign to approve her passport documentation, this seems to be the go here. Parents abandon the kids then when they can make money from them they use all stops to do so. My wife was abandoned by her mother and father, both took off and remarried leaving her with her GM and auntie, when she got an educationand went to uni to get a good job the mother came back so she could be supported by her and the father keeps asking for money too. Trouble is my wife was raised in the country and family are the top of the chain so she simply does whatever they ask or goes into debt for them. I am currently trying to make her realize she is not responsible for her half sisterdidnt ebven know she had one till her mother moved back) who hangs out in bars and never pays any of her bills, we had to take care of her kids until recently when they started to work and earn money then they were taken back. She now wants us to give her a place to live rent free and I have told my wife it simply isnt on, waiting to see what happens about this one but I will not put in so that her half sister can screw around and get pissed every night then expect the family to pay for it.

Edited October 13, 2013 by seajae

[buck99]

From the replies to my OP it appears I left the some readers with the impression that I am angry, upset or somehow bothered by my GF/family's wanting to be at the deathbed of father who abandoned them in childhood. I have no personal feelings on the subject other than being surprised at their loyalty to a man who felt no obligation to them during his lifetime. He has money so that is not a consideration. From what was said by my GF and sisters, they have had no personal contact for 30 years and only a few phone calls during that time.

[jvs]

I have a Thai friend and her father used to have a nice farming operation and the family had all the goodies to go with it.

He started drinking and in the end he lost the whole farm,the family feels sorry for him and my friend keeps giving him money so he can drink some more.

When i asked her why she did this she simply replied' He's my father!'

If you do decide to go live with a Thai lady who already has children make sure she gets a divorce and gets sole custody of the children.

This will save you many headaches later on.

[benalibina]

my wifes first husband took off when he found out she was 2 months pregnant, she wasnt aware he already had another wife at the time until he did so. He never has once been to see his daughter or ask after her and when my wife went o'seas and wanted to take her daughter with her he demanded 100,000 baht or he would not sign to approve her passport documentation, this seems to be the go here. Parents abandon the kids then when they can make money from them they use all stops to do so. My wife was abandoned by her mother and father, both took off and remarried leaving her with her GM and auntie, when she got an educationand went to uni to get a good job the mother came back so she could be supported by her and the father keeps asking for money too. Trouble is my wife was raised in the country and family are the top of the chain so she simply does whatever they ask or goes into debt for them. I am currently trying to make her realize she is not responsible for her half sisterdidnt ebven know she had one till her mother moved back) who hangs out in bars and never pays any of her bills, we had to take care of her kids until recently when they started to work and earn money then they were taken back. She now wants us to give her a place to live rent free and I have told my wife it simply isnt on, waiting to see what happens about this one but I will not put in so that her half sister can screw around and get pissed every night then expect the family to pay for it.

Good luck with it. Feeling that you gonna need it. By rereading your post, even more !

Edited October 13, 2013 by benalibina

[ABCer]

My personal observations:

- First comes Nature, Hormones, Love... and a baby...

- Than natural father disappears, goes to greener pastures...

- Single mum looks for a Father (the cuckoo syndrome)... or Family looks after the baby...

This isn't all Thais, but very typical for Thailand.

Net result:

- Family is very important. Perhaps all-important in Thai culture...

- Every strata of society happy - Gov't saves money on social services; Thai men enjoy sex without obligations; Farangs or older well to do Thais get younger second hand wifes; Kids often get better chances in life...

- There is a healthy rate of population growth...

- It is as it is. No use to apply Western values here.

For the sake of fairness and compared to the West:

- The same Nature, Hormones, Love... but no baby due to better (?) sex education...

- Natural father is guilty even if he is not a natural father...

- Single mum looks for a Father (the cuckoo syndrome)... or Gov't support, often concurrently...

This isn't all West, but a very typical picture.

Net result:

- Family ties are weaker in Western countries...

- No happy groups in society - Gov't overburdened with social security payments; Western men are scared to form long term relationships for fear of being 'taken to the cleaners'; Both single mum and father paying maintenance are stigmatised;

Kids from broken families are often disadvantaged in many different ways...

- Population growth rate is lower in the West...

Please feel free to argue. As I said it is my personal observation. Any personal insults will be happily returned.

[mickjn]

Just have nothing to do with it they will figure it out

[laolover88]

I think it is quite normal

As I understand it the views are

1. You only have one mother and one father

2. Whatever they do you are obligated to them for giving you life and must support them, whatever.

Can't really give much advice...but from my experience: support your 'family' and keep out of it!!

Good luck

[Travel2003]

Ask the question Cui Bono? To who's benefit.

And there needs to be some benefit driver for this to be so prevalent in Thai society.

My personal opinion is that is the Thai mother, or more specifically the Thai grandmother that benefits - fathers out of the way, daughters with a child to raise, grandmother hooked into the system (she's useful now) daughters sent out to work, kids dumped with grandma, income stream for life.

AND a constant mind game of indebtedness to mum.

Your G/F might very well object to the father of her child being involved in anyway simply because it suits her for him to be out of the picture - the child is her long term security, sealed up nicely when a grandchild comes along.

Think about it another way - there is no welfare, a young woman who gets pregnant outside of marriage is at risk of being left with no support, the poverty your G/F has told you about is a real risk, anyone who thinks about that as a reality would be terrified by the thought of a pregnancy without the support of the father.

Unless there is some other behaviour driver pregnancy outside of marriage would be a serious matter and you'd expect to see cultural norms developing to discourage it - social stigma etc.

But it hardly exists in Thailand, mothers are not schooling their daughters to not get pregnant with the first boyfriend that comes along - But they do put a huge amount of effort into encouraging the dependancy hook into their children. Why?

Cui Bono?

Makes perfect sense.

My wife's dedication to her grandfather (grandmother dead), is amazing.

Turned out he and her grandmother were the one taking care of her when the parents were out working.

Now is the time for grandfather to get his pension, which of course my wife and her mother gladly pay in way of a little money, but mostly food, clothing, toiletries, etc.

PS.

Interesting how many members here seem to come from societies where the fathers never abandon their families.

lol

[kikoman]

My wife and her husband divorced years before I met her, the husband took one daughter and my wife took the other, When I met her and we were talking about living together, I asked her to quit both of her jobs and I would care for her, part of that was sending her mother 2,000 baht a month for taking care of her daughter.

When we moved to the village , her daughters (both) came to live with us and the grandmother went back to her home in Bangkok, over the years the girls father brought them gold, computers etc, we paid all the living cost, the girls father paid for the Education all the way thought the university and takes care of the needs of things they desired, phones, spending money what have you, he recently moved back to the village from Phuket.

I may be the exception to the rule but he does provide for our children.

In the village the parents pay for the child's education with the understanding that it is the child responsibility to care for their parents later in life. The wife and I were recently planning for what she needed after I am gone to support herself, both girls told me daddy, do not worry about our mother we will take care of her.

What I have seen of the family unity, I know they will!

Cheers: .

Edited October 13, 2013 by kikoman

[soomak]

My personal observations:

- First comes Nature, Hormones, Love... and a baby...

- Than natural father disappears, goes to greener pastures...

- Single mum looks for a Father (the cuckoo syndrome)... or Family looks after the baby...

This isn't all Thais, but very typical for Thailand.

Net result:

- Family is very important. Perhaps all-important in Thai culture...

- Every strata of society happy - Gov't saves money on social services; Thai men enjoy sex without obligations; Farangs or older well to do Thais get younger second hand wifes; Kids often get better chances in life...

- There is a healthy rate of population growth...

- It is as it is. No use to apply Western values here.

For the sake of fairness and compared to the West:

- The same Nature, Hormones, Love... but no baby due to better (?) sex education...

- Natural father is guilty even if he is not a natural father...

- Single mum looks for a Father (the cuckoo syndrome)... or Gov't support, often concurrently...

This isn't all West, but a very typical picture.

Net result:

- Family ties are weaker in Western countries...

- No happy groups in society - Gov't overburdened with social security payments; Western men are scared to form long term relationships for fear of being 'taken to the cleaners'; Both single mum and father paying maintenance are stigmatised;

Kids from broken families are often disadvantaged in many different ways...

- Population growth rate is lower in the West...

Please feel free to argue. As I said it is my personal observation. Any personal insults will be happily returned.

There is no natural population growth in Thailand.

Average birth rate = 1.6-1.7 per woman, same as in Western Europe.

[DP25]

Most farang observations are based on a heavily skewed group that is not representative of society. Woman that date and marry farang are statistical outliers in all sorts of categories

Most farang seem to think having two or three kids as a teenager is 'average' in Thailand, and the father walking out as well, because that is what they experience from the women they and their friends date.

I see it mentioned all the time in this forum, that Thailand has a high population growth rate, because the Thai men impregnate most women as teenagers (because there is no sex ed) and most women just keep popping out baby after baby

In reality, the fertility rate in Thailand is LOWER than in the US or the UK. The average Thai woman has her first child in her early to mid 20s, not when she's 16 like the average mia farang. The problem in Thailand is not 'healthy population growth' because of no sex education like has been mentioned in this thread, it is that women no longer have enough children to prevent the population from shrinking.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_and_dependent_territories_by_fertility_rate

Children per woman according to CIA WorldFactbook

US - 2.06

UK - 1.90

Thailand - 1.66

In short, women who date and marry farang on average are not average members of Thai society, and hence personal observations of most farang in Thailand are going to be a bit skewed.

[cpofc]

Skeletons in the closet? If I piled them up from both the Thai, and the Australian side of my family it would resemble a scene from the 'Killing Fields'.

When I took my 10 YO Thai Step Daughter to Australia I had to do interviews and such with Thai Child Welfare. Very professional they were and the only ones I did not have to slip a white envelope to. That was in 1985. After a search by them, it was concluded that the father was either in jail or dead. So my wife was given full custody and my daughter was allowed out of the country.

Almost 30 years later, early this year, my Wife and Daughter set out on a mission to find her father, (a drunk and basher) via the Internet, Facebook Etc.

They did find him! Or at least they believe they found his family. To cut a long story short, they shit themselves and severed all contact before things even got started. perhaps they thought she was chasing money.

My daughter is now 38 YO, an Australian Cit and University Grad, married with a son, and runs a successful Thai Restaurant of her own in Melbourne. So guess it proves there is always exceptions to a 'rule'.

My Australian grandfather on my fathers side was a bigamist! His 'new' family shit themselves too when after he died in the early 80s and they found out he had a previous family going back 50-60 years who may lay claim to part of his estate

There would not be too many families anywhere I reckon that don't have skeletons in the closet

[tartempion]

Well not so here, in some Isaan village.

4 girls, 3 boys, one dead as a passenger on a motorcycle.

3 oldest girls worked as maids to pay for the family house (400k), lived in a hut before that, parents have rice field.

Father is old and can't work his rice field anymore.

The oldest daughter is a bitch but could do no wrong in fathers eyes, until recently that is.

She lives in parents house and runs the show.

Inheritage was discussion a few months ago, the bitch sister wanted ALL of it (she claims she did ALL, the other sisters nothing).

Father did not agree for once.

Seems she lost face and refuses now to take care (make food, pay food, clean house, bring/visit father to hospital - happens once a month now)

Parents got through their rice stock and we had to buy a bag of 39kg kilo of rice.

My lady took care of rice planting and goes to the field every few days to keep things running.

[cgphuket]

Welcome to Thailand...

[Travel2003]

Skeletons in the closet? If I piled them up from both the Thai, and the Australian side of my family it would resemble a scene from the 'Killing Fields'.

Wonderful metaphor.

[FiftyTwo]

If a Thai lady has children with a man she hasn't married, it's considered her problem, not his problem.

This is a major difference between Thai and western laws, and one I think that's entirely fair (If he won't marry you, don't breed with him).

One of the many problems which foreigners have in Thailand is not understanding the difference in meaning between 'Pua/Mia' and 'Sammee/Panraya' which both loosely get translated into English as 'husband/wife', but really aren't the same at all.

You are no longer in your home country, a lot of your morality is not applicable here.

So to sum up what you are not understanding,

In Thailand females have not yet been granted the god given right to breed freely with no consequences to themselves, and shove all consequences on the male foolish enough to breed with them.

Edited October 13, 2013 by FiftyTwo

[GuestHouse]

If a Thai lady has children with a man she hasn't married, it's considered her problem, not his problem.

This is a major difference between Thai and western laws, and one I think that's entirely fair (If he won't marry you, don't breed with him).

One of the many problems which foreigners have in Thailand is not understanding the difference in meaning between 'Pua/Mia' and 'Sammee/Panraya' which both loosely get translated into English as 'husband/wife', but really aren't the same at all.

You are no longer in your home country, a lot of your morality is not applicable here.

So to sum up what you are not understanding,

In Thailand females have not yet been granted the god given right to breed freely with no consequences to themselves, and shove all consequences on the male foolish enough to breed with them.

To put the flip side of your argument:

In Thailand it seems men still have the god given right to breed freely with no consequences to themselves, and shove all the consequences on the female foolish enough to breed with them.

And you seem to think that entirely fair.

Nice!