Abhisit calls on PM Yingluck to reveal truth on bartering rice for high-speed train

[bangon04]

Even if she tells the truth .... it will still be lies

I seem to remember the story of chickens bartered for fighter jets.... or did I just dream it? So not a new idea then...Come to think of it the same person had the same idea..

[siampolee]

Might do well to recall the Autobahn building campaign initiated by one Herr Schicklrgruber in Germany in the early to mid 1930's.

When his grand plan for world domination opened with his European grand tour his employees traversed Europe with amazing speed and efficiency.

Many branch offices were opened and staffed by his nationals in alien sovereign states, sadly though the benefits they brought were not that impressive and there was a general dislike of the grand tour throughout the world, which of course resulted in many other nations emulating the grand tour scenario in which many were killed and injured, displaced and general chaos reigned for some 5 or so years.

I certainly would state without fear of contradiction that all these latter day schemes so enthusiastically backed and subsequently financed by China are based on Herr Schicklegrumers original draft plan, the only difference being the location I.E. Asia and its bordering regions.

The Thai's and all the other countries that have been approached by China concerning this high speed rail link.might do well to consider the long term aims of China.

Beware of the imperial aspirations of China and its planned occupation of the region and beyond. ''Slowly slowly catchee monkey.''

This Chinese proffered chalice of a high speed rail network is in my view a poisoned chalice, sadly it's going to be a few years hence before the poison works then there will be no antidote and China will have a wonderful return on their investment paid for by their victims

Edited October 14, 2013 by siampolee

[Globeman]

I believe he used the term "ignorant peasants" in a reported speech sense - that was what the Bangkok politicians thought and how they treated them until Thaksin came along and at least pretended to take them seriously. In the context (perhaps you should try rereading it while suspending your anger), it seems unlikely he was expressing his own personal view of country folk.

You believe,

Well many people believe they know what horse is going to win the 2-30 at Newmarket, The Kentucky Derby or Australia's Golden Slipper, they are indeed believers in great great fairy tales.

Now, can you really answer for the poster concerned or are you yet another poster blinded by Thaksins blatant lying and corruption and have no contact or knowledge of the worthy folk of Isaan?

If I had posted the comments I would have stated the words came from the cut and paste and were not in line my views on the people concerned.

Good manners and respect cost nothing but mean a great deal.

However that particular comment does not apply to Thaksin and his ilk whether supposedly coming from them or accorded to them.

You have an unsurpassed knack for misreading a post, sirrah... I wrote "I believe", because it seemed more polite than saying "it's bloody obvious to anyone but an angry idiot who thinks he knows better than everyone else." But apparently, you need it spelled out... He didn't cut and paste, he was using a rhetorical technique - which evidently is a little too much for you to get your head around, it being so full of concerns for the welfare of the "worthy folk of Isaan".

FYI, I have a wife from the countryside, I have spent a lot of time there over the last 20 years, (surprise!! That makes two of us!) I like most of the people I have met, and my Thai family are smart, decent people with only a couple of exceptions - much like anywhere else in the world.

And though in the countryside they don't get the best education (the authorities in Bangkok make sure of that) that doesn't mean they are naive or stupid about human motives - like greed. I also wrote in my post: "until Thaksin came along and at least pretended to take them seriously" So how am I "another poster blinded by Thaksins blatant lying and corruption and have no contact or knowledge of the worthy folk of Isaan" ?

[Robby nz]

It would seem strange that if there were such a deal that the Chinese Premier would not want to be in the picture.

After all it would be a deal that would be of great benefit to China and you would think he would want the publicity in his own country, as in 'look what a great job I am doing for the country' which of course is what Yingluck is doing in announcing the deal to the Thai media.

There have in the past been many photo opps of deals of less significance than this with Yingluck and PM's and reps of other countries shaking hands and signing fancy bits of paper so why not this time?

There is no reason why it could not have been done, he was here in the country and the two of them were together in red heartland for a show, a great opportunity for a picture for her album of achievements.

[waza]

It would seem strange that if there were such a deal that the Chinese Premier would not want to be in the picture.

After all it would be a deal that would be of great benefit to China and you would think he would want the publicity in his own country, as in 'look what a great job I am doing for the country' which of course is what Yingluck is doing in announcing the deal to the Thai media.

There have in the past been many photo opps of deals of less significance than this with Yingluck and PM's and reps of other countries shaking hands and signing fancy bits of paper so why not this time?

There is no reason why it could not have been done, he was here in the country and the two of them were together in red heartland for a show, a great opportunity for a picture for her album of achievements.

Remember section 190 of the Thai constitution.

[Rich teacher]

What a load of mindless nonsense.First of all the North East is now the most dynamic growth region in Thailand and although poverty exists there has been remarkable progress over the last twenty years.It's a question for discussion what are the causes of this new prosperity, but it's not really debatable that great progress has been made.As to politicians role it's first important to understand that in all democracies policies are formulated to attract electoral support, not the only consideration but still a very important one.In the North East for decades, despite the huge populatiuon, electors were essentially regarded as voting fodder and not taken seriously by the Bangkok establishment - poor ignorant peasants.Thaksin changed all that and that is why his support in the NE and North is so solid.He didn't adopt populist policies because he is a good man:he did it because he is (usually) an astute politician.The Democrats have followed in his footsteps in copying and in some cases enhancing policies designed to appeal to rural voters.

I agree it would be healthy if other political parties could strengthen their presence in the NE, but that means (in the case of the Democrats) detoxifying their brand.The next general election will make the position crystal clear.

I certainly can't speak for you, however I live in rural Isaan in a typical Thai village in Surin and believe you me the locals are far from happy with this current government and its shenanigans and dubious self enrichment scams schemes.

Certainly Thaksin did not adopt populist policies to encourage support for his personal party P.T.P. He bought it at 500 baht a go, many of the villagers are now realizing that the 500 baht they got has in reality cost them 5,000 baht in the payback Thaksin and his family and their brown nosing acolytes repayment scams schemes.

The facts are the voters are starting to see that the veneer of promised prosperity ''a chicken in every pot'' is in fact for Thaksin his family and their brown nosing acolytes not Mr. and Mrs. Somcahi the average Thai person.

Certainly those aforementioned folks are indeed getting a chicken in their pot, the problem being is that those chickens are coming from the farms stock and are not being replaced neither.

Just a brief question.

Do you actually have any daily contact with the villagers of Isaan and are you really in touch with what they think or is it mindless supposition induced by rose tinted glasses one must ?

Your choice of the words ''ignorant peasants'' is indeed a gross demeaning insult and seems to show just what your feelings and opinions are for concerning the folks of Isaan. However if those words were used in a cut and paste context it reflects your total ignorance of the reality of the situation and confirms without a doubt the insulting manner and attitude that you seem to have for the Isaan folks

Another complete load of rubbish. This government is still overwhelmingly popular with the North-east voters. Every poll taken shows this clearly. Your self admission of insight is truly amusing.

Edited October 14, 2013 by Rich teacher

[Robby nz]

:

Robby nz, on 14 Oct 2013 - 17:51, said

It would seem strange that if there were such a deal that the Chinese Premier would not want to be in the picture.

After all it would be a deal that would be of great benefit to China and you would think he would want the publicity in his own country, as in 'look what a great job I am doing for the country' which of course is what Yingluck is doing in announcing the deal to the Thai media.

There have in the past been many photo opps of deals of less significance than this with Yingluck and PM's and reps of other countries shaking hands and signing fancy bits of paper so why not this time?

There is no reason why it could not have been done, he was here in the country and the two of them were together in red heartland for a show, a great opportunity for a picture for her album of achievements.

Remember section 190 of the Thai constitution.

Yes indeed Waza but they are trying to change that aren't they :

Noppadon clarifies on Thai govt's Section 190 amendment bill

[GentlemanJim]

I believe he used the term "ignorant peasants" in a reported speech sense - that was what the Bangkok politicians thought and how they treated them until Thaksin came along and at least pretended to take them seriously. In the context (perhaps you should try rereading it while suspending your anger), it seems unlikely he was expressing his own personal view of country folk.

You believe,

Well many people believe they know what horse is going to win the 2-30 at Newmarket, The Kentucky Derby or Australia's Golden Slipper, they are indeed believers in great great fairy tales.

Now, can you really answer for the poster concerned or are you yet another poster blinded by Thaksins blatant lying and corruption and have no contact or knowledge of the worthy folk of Isaan?

If I had posted the comments I would have stated the words came from the cut and paste and were not in line my views on the people concerned.

Good manners and respect cost nothing but mean a great deal.

However that particular comment does not apply to Thaksin and his ilk whether supposedly coming from them or accorded to them.

You have an unsurpassed knack for misreading a post, sirrah... I wrote "I believe", because it seemed more polite than saying "it's bloody obvious to anyone but an angry idiot who thinks he knows better than everyone else." But apparently, you need it spelled out... He didn't cut and paste, he was using a rhetorical technique - which evidently is a little too much for you to get your head around, it being so full of concerns for the welfare of the "worthy folk of Isaan".

FYI, I have a wife from the countryside, I have spent a lot of time there over the last 20 years, (surprise!! That makes two of us!) I like most of the people I have met, and my Thai family are smart, decent people with only a couple of exceptions - much like anywhere else in the world.

And though in the countryside they don't get the best education (the authorities in Bangkok make sure of that) that doesn't mean they are naive or stupid about human motives - like greed. I also wrote in my post: "until Thaksin came along and at least pretended to take them seriously" So how am I "another poster blinded by Thaksins blatant lying and corruption and have no contact or knowledge of the worthy folk of Isaan" ?

Globeman, it is far far simpler if you let other posters answer for themselves.

Question for others. As a general observation it always appears that almost all supporters of Thaksin and the reds have a low post count or are recently registered, why is that?

[ChrisY1]

A Shinawatra being asked to tell the truth......gotta be joking Abi!!

[Carrerakiss]

Can high speed trains carry freight? It would seem a good idea to get some of the over loaded ill maintained trucks off the road.

But this is clearly a political based decision rather than a needs based decision.

WRT Red shirt support in Issan, I live in an 85 house village in Issan and I don't see any reduction in Red shirt support. The economy is pretty much booming, property prices are rising and a lot of people feel richer than before. But I'm not too far from Udon, maybe the boon docks are different.

[marcusd]

The voters from Isaan will find out some time in the far future, that they have been used for the profit of some wealthy few...

no they wont. they unfortnately dont have the education or they would have not voted for this government. And you give too much credit where it is not due

[expat888]

Just what's the obsession with a high speed train ?

It's not a populist policy that I can see or much of a distraction from other issues so does it all come down to face ?

Personally, I believe it's because Yingluck is desperate to get involved economically with the Chinese. She doesn't care how she does it and she thinks it will make Thailand a "player" especially with the AEC around the bend. This train is just a waste of money to develop ties with China and a way to unload rice and rubber.

Moreover, it expands China's influence (control) in the region.

Your right, this high speed train wont benefit Thailand but its part of the Chinese plan of high speed rail from Bejing to Singapore without changing trains. It also an economic race to be part of the new silk railway/ road, Thailands at risk of being sidelined by Myanmar.

China, Laos committed to high-speed train project

Laos plans to build the $7-billion (Bt224 billion) train project to link Vientiane and China's Yunnan province as well as later connect to Thailand and other countries of Asean. http://www.nationmultimedia.com/aec/China-Laos-committed-to-high-speed-train-project-30214529.html

China Offers $20 Billion High-Speed Rail to Myanmar. http://larouchepac.com/node/28407

It also plans to build a highway and a high speed railway line by 2015 that would allow people and cargo to travel from Kyaukpyu passing through Mandalay to Yunnan. This would later be connected to Chittagong in Bangladesh, thus joining up Yunnan to Bangladesh via Myanmar through a tri-nation highway http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Southeast_Asia/SEA-03-050813.html

The Laos train is 224 billion baht, the Myanmar train is 600 billion baht,the Thai loans is 2.2 trillion baht, where will the rest of the money go?

Yingluck answers, Prime Minister Yingluck Shinawatra has invited Japan Inc to take part in Thailand's Bt2-trillion transportation development project. She also proposed to Myanmar to jointly develop a "trilateral highway", creating land bridges between India, Myanmar and Thailand...... and to collaborate in trade and the development of the Dawei special economic zone. http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/673840-pm-yingluck-seeks-japanese-role-in-bt2-tn-transportation-project/

Good post. And good research.

[waza]

Can high speed trains carry freight? It would seem a good idea to get some of the over loaded ill maintained trucks off the road.

But this is clearly a political based decision rather than a needs based decision.

WRT Red shirt support in Issan, I live in an 85 house village in Issan and I don't see any reduction in Red shirt support. The economy is pretty much booming, property prices are rising and a lot of people feel richer than before. But I'm not too far from Udon, maybe the boon docks are different.

Yes the network will carry frieght and its will need regular maintainance to keep it in a financially viable condition. But little long term benefit will come to the residents of Issan, except those that own the land these new infrastructure project will be build on.

[antfish]

There is a pattern, the nationalistic Democrats always throw a tantrum when it comes to some bilateral agreement or multinational cooperation with foreign countries.

[metisdead]

An inflammatory post has been removed.

[khunken]

This rice -for-HSR talk is nothing but hot air. According to the commerce minister they have a deal to sell some rice to China. No mention of it from the Chinese PM and of course it's all secret from the Thai end.

China would love to sell it's HSR trains to Thailand & so would the Japanese, French & Germans. It's very unfortunate that the mistaken priority seems to be HSR (another subsidy needing item) instead of getting on with the urgent need to upgrade and even fix the current problems with the existing rail system - which is all planned and ready to go.

[expat888]

Can high speed trains carry freight? It would seem a good idea to get some of the over loaded ill maintained trucks off the road.

But this is clearly a political based decision rather than a needs based decision.

WRT Red shirt support in Issan, I live in an 85 house village in Issan and I don't see any reduction in Red shirt support. The economy is pretty much booming, property prices are rising and a lot of people feel richer than before. But I'm not too far from Udon, maybe the boon docks are different.

Yes the network will carry frieght and its will need regular maintainance to keep it in a financially viable condition. But little long term benefit will come to the residents of Issan, except those that own the land these new infrastructure project will be build on.

Have you seen a map of the proposed route?

Edited October 14, 2013 by expat888

[lowbo]

I gotta side with Abhisit on this one...

[waza]

Can high speed trains carry freight? It would seem a good idea to get some of the over loaded ill maintained trucks off the road.

But this is clearly a political based decision rather than a needs based decision.

WRT Red shirt support in Issan, I live in an 85 house village in Issan and I don't see any reduction in Red shirt support. The economy is pretty much booming, property prices are rising and a lot of people feel richer than before. But I'm not too far from Udon, maybe the boon docks are different.

Yes the network will carry frieght and its will need regular maintainance to keep it in a financially viable condition. But little long term benefit will come to the residents of Issan, except those that own the land these new infrastructure project will be build on.

Have you seen a map of the proposed route?

No its all just speculation at this stage, a MOU, because this deal wouldn't be in accord with section 190 of the Thai constitution yet, thats why theres no official mention of the link to Laos. But you can bet those that have had the insider knowledge and their backers would already own it.

Edited October 14, 2013 by waza

[expat888]

Can high speed trains carry freight? It would seem a good idea to get some of the over loaded ill maintained trucks off the road.

But this is clearly a political based decision rather than a needs based decision.

WRT Red shirt support in Issan, I live in an 85 house village in Issan and I don't see any reduction in Red shirt support. The economy is pretty much booming, property prices are rising and a lot of people feel richer than before. But I'm not too far from Udon, maybe the boon docks are different.

Yes the network will carry frieght and its will need regular maintainance to keep it in a financially viable condition. But little long term benefit will come to the residents of Issan, except those that own the land these new infrastructure project will be build on.

Have you seen a map of the proposed route?

No its all just speculation at this stage, a MOU, because this deal wouldn't be in accord with section 190 of the Thai constitution yet. But you can bet those that have had the insider knowledge and their backers would already own it.

Actually I found this map and you can see where the two branches in Thailand would extend up into Laos and Myra mar.

Maybe that's why they are expanding the MRT and BTS to the west and northwest of Bangkok to accommodate a rail system/station there.

Edited October 14, 2013 by expat888

[dru2]

Even if she tells the truth .... it will still be lies

I seem to remember the story of chickens bartered for fighter jets.... or did I just dream it? So not a new idea then...Come to think of it the same person had the same idea..

I believe it was actually prawns for Boeings - and quite rightly that idiotic and demeaning proposal went nowhere. It was indeed the same man, but it's not so easy to con people in the real world - Seattle or Beijing - as it is in parts of Thailand.

[expat888]

I kept digging and there is a lot of info out there about the high speed project. Now you know where the 2.2 trillion is going.

This video is 2 years old. A Thai promo for the project.

Another train map.

Edited October 14, 2013 by expat888

[lungmi]

The High Speed Train system (Siemens) in Germany works 80%. Air condition stops at 35 celsius. A direct connection is correct, if you accept 10 minutes delay. But if you want

an other connection with HST, you are screwed.

The Regional Express system is the answer, only in the South of Germany.

Maximum speed 120 km/h. Two level carriages, one for bikes and groups (school children, wanderer etc.) Upstairs the normal passengers who want to enjoy the landscape.

This system must be possible in Thailand: cargo, ...etc.

[Globeman]

I believe he used the term "ignorant peasants" in a reported speech sense - that was what the Bangkok politicians thought and how they treated them until Thaksin came along and at least pretended to take them seriously. In the context (perhaps you should try rereading it while suspending your anger), it seems unlikely he was expressing his own personal view of country folk.

You believe,

Well many people believe they know what horse is going to win the 2-30 at Newmarket, The Kentucky Derby or Australia's Golden Slipper, they are indeed believers in great great fairy tales.

Now, can you really answer for the poster concerned or are you yet another poster blinded by Thaksins blatant lying and corruption and have no contact or knowledge of the worthy folk of Isaan?

If I had posted the comments I would have stated the words came from the cut and paste and were not in line my views on the people concerned.

Good manners and respect cost nothing but mean a great deal.

However that particular comment does not apply to Thaksin and his ilk whether supposedly coming from them or accorded to them.

You have an unsurpassed knack for misreading a post, sirrah... I wrote "I believe", because it seemed more polite than saying "it's bloody obvious to anyone but an angry idiot who thinks he knows better than everyone else." But apparently, you need it spelled out... He didn't cut and paste, he was using a rhetorical technique - which evidently is a little too much for you to get your head around, it being so full of concerns for the welfare of the "worthy folk of Isaan".

FYI, I have a wife from the countryside, I have spent a lot of time there over the last 20 years, (surprise!! That makes two of us!) I like most of the people I have met, and my Thai family are smart, decent people with only a couple of exceptions - much like anywhere else in the world.

And though in the countryside they don't get the best education (the authorities in Bangkok make sure of that) that doesn't mean they are naive or stupid about human motives - like greed. I also wrote in my post: "until Thaksin came along and at least pretended to take them seriously" So how am I "another poster blinded by Thaksins blatant lying and corruption and have no contact or knowledge of the worthy folk of Isaan" ?

Globeman, it is far far simpler if you let other posters answer for themselves.

Question for others. As a general observation it always appears that almost all supporters of Thaksin and the reds have a low post count or are recently registered, why is that?

Hey, Gentlemanjim, don't go spoiling my fun!! Anyway, it is an open forum so I'll respond with what I want when I want - as will you, apparently. But hey, thanks for the advice!

[Benmart]

What a load of mindless nonsense.First of all the North East is now the most dynamic growth region in Thailand and although poverty exists there has been remarkable progress over the last twenty years.It's a question for discussion what are the causes of this new prosperity, but it's not really debatable that great progress has been made.As to politicians role it's first important to understand that in all democracies policies are formulated to attract electoral support, not the only consideration but still a very important one.In the North East for decades, despite the huge populatiuon, electors were essentially regarded as voting fodder and not taken seriously by the Bangkok establishment - poor ignorant peasants.Thaksin changed all that and that is why his support in the NE and North is so solid.He didn't adopt populist policies because he is a good man:he did it because he is (usually) an astute politician.The Democrats have followed in his footsteps in copying and in some cases enhancing policies designed to appeal to rural voters.

I agree it would be healthy if other political parties could strengthen their presence in the NE, but that means (in the case of the Democrats) detoxifying their brand.The next general election will make the position crystal clear.

I certainly can't speak for you, however I live in rural Isaan in a typical Thai village in Surin and believe you me the locals are far from happy with this current government and its shenanigans and dubious self enrichment scams schemes.

Certainly Thaksin did not adopt populist policies to encourage support for his personal party P.T.P. He bought it at 500 baht a go, many of the villagers are now realizing that the 500 baht they got has in reality cost them 5,000 baht in the payback Thaksin and his family and their brown nosing acolytes repayment scams schemes.

The facts are the voters are starting to see that the veneer of promised prosperity ''a chicken in every pot'' is in fact for Thaksin his family and their brown nosing acolytes not Mr. and Mrs. Somcahi the average Thai person.

Certainly those aforementioned folks are indeed getting a chicken in their pot, the problem being is that those chickens are coming from the farms stock and are not being replaced neither.

Just a brief question.

Do you actually have any daily contact with the villagers of Isaan and are you really in touch with what they think or is it mindless supposition induced by rose tinted glasses one must ?

Your choice of the words ''ignorant peasants'' is indeed a gross demeaning insult and seems to show just what your feelings and opinions are for concerning the folks of Isaan. However if those words were used in a cut and paste context it reflects your total ignorance of the reality of the situation and confirms without a doubt the insulting manner and attitude that you seem to have for the Isaan folks

re

I believe he used the term "ignorant peasants" in a reported speech sense - that was what the Bangkok politicians thought and how they treated them until Thaksin came along and at least pretended to take them seriously. In the context (perhaps you should try rereading it while suspending your anger), it seems unlikely he was expressing his own personal view of country folk.

Perhaps his passion for Issan and his actually having "boots on the ground there" was misinterpreted as anger. I read his post and got a different vibe from it.

[ableguy]

Just what's the obsession with a high speed train ?

It's not a populist policy that I can see or much of a distraction from other issues so does it all come down to face ?

It's what can be skimmed off, a high speed train to hua hin never heard of anything more stupid? Hi so will not leave the car at home, lo so will use the bus 140 baht.

[ableguy]

Even if she tells the truth .... it will still be lies

I seem to remember the story of chickens bartered for fighter jets.... or did I just dream it? So not a new idea then...Come to think of it the same person had the same idea..

I believe it was actually prawns for Boeings - and quite rightly that idiotic and demeaning proposal went nowhere. It was indeed the same man, but it's not so easy to con people in the real world - Seattle or Beijing - as it is in parts of Thailand.

remember the Longkon scam, China wanted a few thousand ton dried in exchange for some warships! TS government bought the fruit and china said ok start shipping , but guess what when they go to the storage warehouses they were all. Empty. this was about 6 years ago but it just got dropped never heard any more about it.

[OZEMADE]

He should have first asked her to spell "bartering".

I would think she has a fair idea, as she did one trip to Australia and after speaking with Ford executives and the OZ Gov, she got Ford to move their manufacturing to Thailand from OZ. 2015 Ford Australia will cease to exist as far as manufacturing goes, plus all the hundreds of small companies that manufactured all the bits and pieces for the cars and trucks.

She is also in negotiations with HOLDEN which is another American company General Motors. The way the are running at the moment, the OZ Gov have stated they are not going to keep propping them up. Yingluck is also looking at this as well.

[Rimmer]

Inflammatory reported post removed also some quoted replies, apologies if yours was one of the replies

[GarryP]

I was up in Ubol a few weeks ago for a funeral and stayed with my wife's relatives out in the sticks (Pibulmangsaharn district - not that it is pertinent to the topic). My wife could not make it due to illness but that is another story. I got into conversation with some of my wife's uncles, aunts, and cousins about politics, the rice pledging scheme and related stuff (I speak Thai and understand the local language). The consensus was that they were not gaining any benefit at all from the pledging scheme - the money was going into the pockets of the millers and little if anything was draining down to them. It should be noted that these people own their own land and are not tenant farmers.

In the post funeral piss-up I got into conversation with a fellow who had just been voted in at the tessabahn or Or Bor Tor Office in another district (I forget the actual elected position). He claimed - and an uncle-in-law (is there such a word?) confirmed - that he did not have much money, but that he knew many people in the area (not bigwigs just normal people) and made sure to keep in contact with all and sundry develop lasting friendships. As a result, he beat the candidate fielded and bankrolled by PTP, who had the money but did not spend much time with the locals. So, no, I would say that people of the North East are not so easily fooled and are far from ignorant. They realize that in the long term, money politics may not really help them.

Sorry for the rambling and off topic post but I think you get the picture.