The Good The Bad & The Ugly - What makes a photograph?

[MJP]

I suppose it depends on what you are shooting and how. I too come from film, but for me, especially with view cameras, I depended on the Polaroids. In many cases you would get the shot close and then have a discussion with the client over the Polaroids. It might take a few days to get what the client or art director was looking for. Because of this, I have a great appreciation for digital because it eliminated the massive cost of roids but still gives me that preview.

I understand that most people are looking to capture what they come across, and there isn't a lot of setup shots being done. So perhaps volume shooting is a safer way to go. I do it to sometimes too, especially when being journalistic.

But I look at my screen frequently, when the action allows. I can't understand why you wouldn't if the opportunity was available. i don't buy that amateurs are bad photographers because they look at their screens too often. that makes no sense at all; that preview screen should make everyone better. People are bad photographers because they haven't become good ones yet.

I forget that some people actually get to do this photo thing as a job. Does that ruin it as a hobby for the person? Do they get to retirement and say "I'm never picking up a camera again"?

I hate work. Probably because of what I do for a living. It's inexplicably miserable.

[Goshawk]

I forget that some people actually get to do this photo thing as a job.

A great talk here from Jared Polin...

[MJP]

I forget that some people actually get to do this photo thing as a job.

A great talk here from Jared Polin...

That bloke needs a hair cut.

[phuketrichard]

i don't buy that amateurs are bad photographers because they look at their screens too often

never said that, only said many miss the great shot cause they took the time to look at the back screen after every shot they shoot.

When i used to shoot studio or model work i used a hasselblad with a Polaroid back, was great

i do look at the screen and check the histogram sometimes when i am shooting in a temple or landscapes, but my heart is in walking around and looking for the 1/125th sec of life

I don't think there are any truly bad photographers but there are many people that never learn to see

[MJP]

i don't buy that amateurs are bad photographers because they look at their screens too often

never said that, only said many miss the great shot cause they took the time to look at the back screen after every shot they shoot.

When i used to shoot studio or model work i used a hasselblad with a Polaroid back, was great

i do look at the screen and check the histogram sometimes when i am shooting in a temple or landscapes, but my heart is in walking around and looking for the 1/125th sec of life

I don't think there are any truly bad photographers but there are many people that never learn to see

This thing about learning to see. I understand that. Since I've been staring through the pentaprism I have an increased awareness of my surroundings and see the world around me differently now, almost see it in frames. My visual perception of things has deepened if you like. It's also made me a much happier person.

[Dancealot]

Great discussion.

Negative vs positive.

[phuketrichard]

I see the world in a 35 mm rectangle

[sunshine51]

I suppose it depends on what you are shooting and how. I too come from film, but for me, especially with view cameras, I depended on the Polaroids. In many cases you would get the shot close and then have a discussion with the client over the Polaroids. It might take a few days to get what the client or art director was looking for. Because of this, I have a great appreciation for digital because it eliminated the massive cost of roids but still gives me that preview.

I understand that most people are looking to capture what they come across, and there isn't a lot of setup shots being done. So perhaps volume shooting is a safer way to go. I do it to sometimes too, especially when being journalistic.

But I look at my screen frequently, when the action allows. I can't understand why you wouldn't if the opportunity was available. i don't buy that amateurs are bad photographers because they look at their screens too often. that makes no sense at all; that preview screen should make everyone better. People are bad photographers because they haven't become good ones yet.

I forget that some people actually get to do this photo thing as a job. Does that ruin it as a hobby for the person? Do they get to retirement and say "I'm never picking up a camera again"?

I hate work. Probably because of what I do for a living. It's inexplicably miserable.

MJP....

To answer your question pertaining to..."Do they get to retirement and say I'm never...."

I've been a pro for 30+ years...professional meaning that photography, in its various

forms...ie...stills & motion...is what I do to earn a living. I had a late start in the job being

in my early 30's when I "went pro". I went pro because a rather famous photog at the time

liked my work and took a chance to pick me up as a stringer...I was doing nothing else at

the time except having a beer at an open air bistro kinda placxe on Soi Cowboy so I

gladly accepted the offer. The money was shit, the photo editors were cruel and the

hours were...well...lets say they suited me ok. Hell I really didn't need the money

immediately having worked a tad bit over 4 years in Saudi back when the money was

huge...and being in the Army once taught me how to deal with cruel photo editors

because they were almost the same as cruel Colonels. I loved the new job!

Nowadays I'm semi-retired...which means that I'll still get outta bed for a job if the

job interests me but no...I'm not gonna do the next floods or riots in BKK or any other

place on this planet nor wars nor human tragedies nor bad luck stories...for anybody.

However I will always volunteer to work on the next Sports Illustrated Swimsuit Issue

when they shoot out in these here parts!

"I'm never picking up a camera again"?"....

I've never set one down long enough to even consider picking it back up.

To me photography as a job isn't just a job...it's a passion.

[Fiddlesticks]

I suppose it depends on what you are shooting and how. I too come from film, but for me, especially with view cameras, I depended on the Polaroids. In many cases you would get the shot close and then have a discussion with the client over the Polaroids. It might take a few days to get what the client or art director was looking for. Because of this, I have a great appreciation for digital because it eliminated the massive cost of roids but still gives me that preview.

I understand that most people are looking to capture what they come across, and there isn't a lot of setup shots being done. So perhaps volume shooting is a safer way to go. I do it to sometimes too, especially when being journalistic.

But I look at my screen frequently, when the action allows. I can't understand why you wouldn't if the opportunity was available. i don't buy that amateurs are bad photographers because they look at their screens too often. that makes no sense at all; that preview screen should make everyone better. People are bad photographers because they haven't become good ones yet.

I forget that some people actually get to do this photo thing as a job. Does that ruin it as a hobby for the person? Do they get to retirement and say "I'm never picking up a camera again"?

I hate work. Probably because of what I do for a living. It's inexplicably miserable.

MJP....

To answer your question pertaining to..."Do they get to retirement and say I'm never...."

I've been a pro for 30+ years...professional meaning that photography, in its various

forms...ie...stills & motion...is what I do to earn a living. I had a late start in the job being

in my early 30's when I "went pro". I went pro because a rather famous photog at the time

liked my work and took a chance to pick me up as a stringer...I was doing nothing else at

the time except having a beer at an open air bistro kinda placxe on Soi Cowboy so I

gladly accepted the offer. The money was shit, the photo editors were cruel and the

hours were...well...lets say they suited me ok. Hell I really didn't need the money

immediately having worked a tad bit over 4 years in Saudi back when the money was

huge...and being in the Army once taught me how to deal with cruel photo editors

because they were almost the same as cruel Colonels. I loved the new job!

Nowadays I'm semi-retired...which means that I'll still get outta bed for a job if the

job interests me but no...I'm not gonna do the next floods or riots in BKK or any other

place on this planet nor wars nor human tragedies nor bad luck stories...for anybody.

However I will always volunteer to work on the next Sports Illustrated Swimsuit Issue

when they shoot out in these here parts!

"I'm never picking up a camera again"?"....

I've never set one down long enough to even consider picking it back up.

To me photography as a job isn't just a job...it's a passion.

"However I will always volunteer to work on the next Sports Illustrated Swimsuit Issue

when they shoot out in these here parts!"

Just be sure to post ALL of those photos on TV !

[canuckamuck]

I suppose it depends on what you are shooting and how. I too come from film, but for me, especially with view cameras, I depended on the Polaroids. In many cases you would get the shot close and then have a discussion with the client over the Polaroids. It might take a few days to get what the client or art director was looking for. Because of this, I have a great appreciation for digital because it eliminated the massive cost of roids but still gives me that preview.

I understand that most people are looking to capture what they come across, and there isn't a lot of setup shots being done. So perhaps volume shooting is a safer way to go. I do it to sometimes too, especially when being journalistic.

But I look at my screen frequently, when the action allows. I can't understand why you wouldn't if the opportunity was available. i don't buy that amateurs are bad photographers because they look at their screens too often. that makes no sense at all; that preview screen should make everyone better. People are bad photographers because they haven't become good ones yet.

I forget that some people actually get to do this photo thing as a job. Does that ruin it as a hobby for the person? Do they get to retirement and say "I'm never picking up a camera again"?

I hate work. Probably because of what I do for a living. It's inexplicably miserable.

Yes some parts of it can get you down, and making your hobby your job can make you look for a new hobby.

I was being hired as a photographer when I was just 17. Eventually I went to university and art college, 5 years in total. And then went straight into a full time job with studio rent and all the equipment to pay for. Doing well (very busy) but having very high overhead, I was essentially bankrupt so I joined another photographer to offset costs. We had some fairly impressive clients, and we jumped into digital very early on. That was a big advantage to us because of the photo manipulation available. We could make the products into something better than what they were.

The digital investment was massive though, and we had 2000 dollar a month payments on equipment alone plus a large downtown studio space with all the rent and utilities, and we had to pay ourselves and assistants. The stress was massive and our clients were temperamental. Eventually we took over another studio, when that guy (the top guy in town) retired. And we took over his clients as well.

Now the studio was bringing in serious cash, with one client alone bringing in $400,000 annually.

But the hard years had taken their toll on us. My partner and I hated each other and going to work was more like going to war. Eventually I either had to get past this or someone was going to get hurt. So I let him buy me out in a deal that gave him every piece of equipment we owned, and a no compete clause as well.

The buyout got me to Thailand, and I did work for a magazine for a few years after that. But I haven't been very serious about pictures since the studio. 10 years ago now.

I think my happy place was the studio and all those wonderful lights. Without them I just don't get the urge to put a big effort into things. I still pull out the camera from time to time, but I have to admit it is getting less frequent.

I think that is about to change though. Really really thinking about lights again.

[sunshine51]

@ canuckamuck...

Yeah...partnerships can be a bitch however....

go on...break out the camera's again...the

lights will happen when needed...get to it;

you know you want to!

[MJP]

I suppose it depends on what you are shooting and how. I too come from film, but for me, especially with view cameras, I depended on the Polaroids. In many cases you would get the shot close and then have a discussion with the client over the Polaroids. It might take a few days to get what the client or art director was looking for. Because of this, I have a great appreciation for digital because it eliminated the massive cost of roids but still gives me that preview.

I understand that most people are looking to capture what they come across, and there isn't a lot of setup shots being done. So perhaps volume shooting is a safer way to go. I do it to sometimes too, especially when being journalistic.

But I look at my screen frequently, when the action allows. I can't understand why you wouldn't if the opportunity was available. i don't buy that amateurs are bad photographers because they look at their screens too often. that makes no sense at all; that preview screen should make everyone better. People are bad photographers because they haven't become good ones yet.

I forget that some people actually get to do this photo thing as a job. Does that ruin it as a hobby for the person? Do they get to retirement and say "I'm never picking up a camera again"?

I hate work. Probably because of what I do for a living. It's inexplicably miserable.

Yes some parts of it can get you down, and making your hobby your job can make you look for a new hobby.

I was being hired as a photographer when I was just 17. Eventually I went to university and art college, 5 years in total. And then went straight into a full time job with studio rent and all the equipment to pay for. Doing well (very busy) but having very high overhead, I was essentially bankrupt so I joined another photographer to offset costs. We had some fairly impressive clients, and we jumped into digital very early on. That was a big advantage to us because of the photo manipulation available. We could make the products into something better than what they were.

The digital investment was massive though, and we had 2000 dollar a month payments on equipment alone plus a large downtown studio space with all the rent and utilities, and we had to pay ourselves and assistants. The stress was massive and our clients were temperamental. Eventually we took over another studio, when that guy (the top guy in town) retired. And we took over his clients as well.

Now the studio was bringing in serious cash, with one client alone bringing in $400,000 annually.

But the hard years had taken their toll on us. My partner and I hated each other and going to work was more like going to war. Eventually I either had to get past this or someone was going to get hurt. So I let him buy me out in a deal that gave him every piece of equipment we owned, and a no compete clause as well.

The buyout got me to Thailand, and I did work for a magazine for a few years after that. But I haven't been very serious about pictures since the studio. 10 years ago now.

I think my happy place was the studio and all those wonderful lights. Without them I just don't get the urge to put a big effort into things. I still pull out the camera from time to time, but I have to admit it is getting less frequent.

I think that is about to change though. Really really thinking about lights again.

It's the only way to vanquish those demons.

When I was a young child, my mother would make me ride horses. I don't honestly like horses, they're large, tempremental beasts with very small brains and would on occassion cast me unto the floor.

Nature over nurture, survival instincts instilled at birth, I'd have run over burning coals to avoid getting back on the horse. But no, the insistance to remount said beast in a stern and mandatory tone rendered me at fifteen hands once again.

I still don't like horses to this day so have no idea where this anecdote is actually going.

Anyway. You don't need a million dollars of kit anymore old boy. Definitely get back into it, if not for money then definitely just for fun.

Edited November 6, 2013 by MJP

[sunshine51]

In my best Scottish accent...

Aye MJP....with you it was horses. With me it was mom's stewed tomatoes.

Looked a wee bit like roadkill to me young eyes they did...oozin red juice

specked with we black spots & some greenish mush in there. Mom &

pop had long finished their meals when I was still sittin at the table a starin

at roadkill....

Mom takes out a blueberry pie...home made at that and a tub of vanilla

ice cream...bought at a local dairy...fresh as mornin mist it was.

She cut two wedges from the pie & placed em on 2 plates then a large

scoop of the vanilla ice cream was placed on top of each slice of pie.

I asked where was my piece of pie and got a smack across the choppers

in return with....

"You'll get your piece of pie when you finish your tomatoes"...blunt & to

the point.

Must have sat there for eternity lookin at mon & pop enjoyin their

pie....each bite they took in slow motion...it was torture I tell ya.

Then I tried...I tried...a bite of mom's stewed tomatoes with the

black spots & greenish mush in there...Bloody 'ell it was good!

Not only did I finish the two tomatoes on me plate but I finshed

the other 4 tomatoes in the stew pot...juice and all...

Then I received my piece of blueberry pie with the mornin dew

fresh vanilla ice cream on the top...what joy it was!

Ooooi the next day was a Sunday & I'm glad it was too.

I was poopin pink stuff with greenish stuff in it all day long.

But the moral of the story boys & girls is this...I still don't

care much for stewed tomatoes but I'll gladly eat em all

up if there's some home made blueberry pie & vanilla ice

cream about.

Keep Shooting!

[phuketrichard]

i am lost, what does Mom's Blueberry pie an horses have to do with a good photograph :-)

PS; I love them both

[MJP]

i am lost, what does Mom's Blueberry pie an horses have to do with a good photograph :-)

PS; I love them both

Sunshine means you may have to do something you don't like to get something you do.

This sums up why I stayed in my unsuitable and miserable career of cleaning dirt all these years. It's so I could afford to feed and house the kids and spend the remainder in camera stuff.

[phuketrichard]

i had two teachers in art school that, what they told me, i still recall almost 40 years down the road.

One was from the Brooks institute in Santa Barbara, he told us if he was NOT getting paid he never picked up a camera, When he told us (at the sf art Institute) half the students dropped his class.

The other said, if u were serious about Photography, get a job at the post office, great salary, good hours and job security and u can devote ur time to ur passion

I chose the middle route an dam glad of it.

[villagefarang]

Maybe this doesn’t make sense but without my camera I would not have noticed this on a recent ride and would have passed it by without a second thought. The camera acts as a muse or third eye pulling my attention toward things I might otherwise miss or ignore. It is just a bit of wood in a murky pond but there is something about it that I like. My camera helps me focus.

Then again maybe I should have just passed it by. I think trying to make money from photos would simply kill the enjoyment for me.

Edited November 6, 2013 by villagefarang

[MJP]

i had two teachers in art school that, what they told me, i still recall almost 40 years down the road.

One was from the Brooks institute in Santa Barbara, he told us if he was NOT getting paid he never picked up a camera, When he told us (at the sf art Institute) half the students dropped his class.

The other said, if u were serious about Photography, get a job at the post office, great salary, good hours and job security and u can devote ur time to ur passion

I chose the middle route an dam glad of it.

It's a funny thing, but ever since I got into it strangely a lot of my time is dedicated to the marketing department.

[canuckamuck]

Try going through the phone book and making cold calls on slow weeks. Then see how much you still love photography.

[MJP]

Try going through the phone book and making cold calls on slow weeks. Then see how much you still love photography.

I do that for soil remediation on slow weeks.

Imagine that!

You don't have to do that anymore. You can still love taking pics!

[sunshine51]

i am lost, what does Mom's Blueberry pie an horses have to do with a good photograph :-)

PS; I love them both

Ahhhhh....Richard me lad....(Scottish accent again)....it's a wee bit of analogy.

I loved me mum's blueberry pie...but I was stuck looking at roadkill resemblance

a long time & could possibly still be there today had I not decided to give the

devilish red things a go and devoure them.

There be a lotta things that make a photograph matey...sometimes you have to

see beyond the obvious to really "see" that particular one in a bazillion shot &

be ready to take that chance to capture it...regardless of consequences.

Kinda akin to eating a good somtam...gotta get past the fire to find the taste!

Or...as I'm in Hong Kong for a few days...also kinda like eating something that

smells revolting on a serious scale...Char Taufu....deep fried on the streets

when it gets towards wintertime here...one can smell it from kilometers away

it's that bad...I mean horrific, nasty smelling stuff...a cross between stink

footed trainers and dead bodies in the noon day sun kinda bad...it's so bad

you can't even vomit for the stench of it....Evil shit!

But get a hunk past your nose and take a bite...the taste is sweet & delicious.

Go figure?!

[phuketrichard]

Or...as I'm in Hong Kong for a few days...also kinda like eating something that

smells revolting on a serious scale...Char Taufu...

got ya

BUT i for one cant eat Durian. Cant get past the smell no matter how great it might taste

[Dancealot]

I forget that some people actually get to do this photo thing as a job.

A great talk here from Jared Polin...

That bloke needs a hair cut.

Cut/ , he's stating the obvious.