Thai lower house passes political amnesty bill

[klubex99]

To be honest, all we can hope for now is that the Senate have the wit to stop this total farce before the country is thrown in to complete turmoil.

tell me who has the majority in the senate and I'll answer your question.

That's a difficult one, because senators are not really meant to have any political connection or be associated with any particular political camp, or they would never have been eligible for election as a member of the senate in the first place. That accounts for 76 of them with the other 74 being made up from appointed members of different sectors by the senate selection committee.

Because they are not expected to show any form of political views, it is rather impossible to say exactly what their thought process is.

They are truly there to represent the people and the constitution and not their own political ends.

If Thaksin needs to grease any palms to get this through it is going to be in the senate.

It is going to be a hell of a lot tougher getting the bill through there with any other method other than corruption. The senate is the protector of the constitution and with a bill that is quoted many times as infringing parts of the constitution. It should be thrown out by default. Add to that, everything that happens in the streets between now and when they debate it in the senate will also have a bearing.

If it just sails through, then we all know that the senate is also rife with corruption and when your country has a political infrastructure and senate riddled with corruption, then you know you are screwed. Because that means the most basic elements of democracy are absent for all to see.

Edited November 1, 2013 by klubex99

[MrSlatersParrot]

The Democrats consistently walk out of Parliamentary debates if they disagree with what is being mooted. They are not refused the right to speak they are deliberately abstaining from voting because they know that they will lose the vote

Thaksin is an unfortunate distraction in this attempt by Pheu Thai to draw a line under the unfortunate events of the past few years.

Yellow shirts have killed people, Red shirts have killed people, members of the political parties and the security forces have often been complicit in the deaths. But the only way forward in my view is a period of forgiveness and reconciliation such as we witnessed in South Africa following the end of apartheid

I have just watched one of the leaders of the Democratic party on YouTube ranting and raving and fermenting violence. He reminded me of Adolph Hitler addressing a Nuremberg Rally. So puffed up is he with his own importance he cannot comprehend that his warlike rhetoric and bile may well cost the lives of yet more, often innocent, citizens

In saying all this now is clearly not the right moment for Mr Thaksin to return to Thailand. Memories must be allowed to dim further.

What Thailand needs at this time is a benevolent dictator. Thais are like the Egyptians. They are not ready for democracy

Erm.... why do we need a period of forgiveness? That doesn't make things better because many are not willing to forgive and is why we have this uproar at the moment.... isn't it?

What we need is a period of non-corrupt, non-manipulative and fair justice for all. If any member of my family died, no matter from what side of the fence, I would not forgive, I would want justice.

All you are promoting is a lame and lazy cop out.

You live in Thailand?

Western ideals. Surely you know that ain't going to happen

A way off yet.

The dems will protest over everything ad nauseam from now.

They didn't vote against this amnesty they walked out.

Come an election will they boycott it like before?

They are above everyone.

[EricBerg]

The missunderstood fugitive really wants to push Thailand over the edge. It will be his swan song. Place your bets on how much time he has left.

[klubex99]

The Democrats consistently walk out of Parliamentary debates if they disagree with what is being mooted. They are not refused the right to speak they are deliberately abstaining from voting because they know that they will lose the vote

Thaksin is an unfortunate distraction in this attempt by Pheu Thai to draw a line under the unfortunate events of the past few years.

Yellow shirts have killed people, Red shirts have killed people, members of the political parties and the security forces have often been complicit in the deaths. But the only way forward in my view is a period of forgiveness and reconciliation such as we witnessed in South Africa following the end of apartheid

I have just watched one of the leaders of the Democratic party on YouTube ranting and raving and fermenting violence. He reminded me of Adolph Hitler addressing a Nuremberg Rally. So puffed up is he with his own importance he cannot comprehend that his warlike rhetoric and bile may well cost the lives of yet more, often innocent, citizens

In saying all this now is clearly not the right moment for Mr Thaksin to return to Thailand. Memories must be allowed to dim further.

What Thailand needs at this time is a benevolent dictator. Thais are like the Egyptians. They are not ready for democracy

Erm.... why do we need a period of forgiveness? That doesn't make things better because many are not willing to forgive and is why we have this uproar at the moment.... isn't it?

What we need is a period of non-corrupt, non-manipulative and fair justice for all. If any member of my family died, no matter from what side of the fence, I would not forgive, I would want justice.

All you are promoting is a lame and lazy cop out.

You live in Thailand?

Western ideals. Surely you know that ain't going to happen

A way off yet.

The dems will protest over everything ad nauseam from now.

They didn't vote against this amnesty they walked out.

Come an election will they boycott it like before?

They are above everyone.

Yes I live in Thailand.

Western Ideals?? Democracy is an international system. Nothing to do with western ideals. If a country embraces democracy, it is expected to at least honour the basic foundation of democracy.

Sounds to me that your dislike for the democrats is over-riding your judgement. If democrats refuse to be part of something glaringly undemocratic, then by my book, that is fair enough. Or they wouldn't be seen to be a very democratic democrat party.... would they?

[MrSlatersParrot]

I think it's pretty clear to everyone what the Dems plan is.

Right now in Ban Saphan you have rubber protestors bussed in from the deep south disrupting local and regional communities.

We used to call these "Flying pickets." Not from these parts.

The up coming Preah hindu temple decision is likely to infuriate the right wing nationalist groups. Expect these groups to enter stage right shortly.

We've seen a group "spontaneously" created out of hospital staff but that includes "Mad" Dr Tul, you know the guy Nick Nostitz described as attempting to lynch some red shirts his followers had corralled.

Expect more good intentioned "groups" to appear. A crude parody of trade union marches.

Suthep made us all aware of his plans for Surat Thani.

Will that include a blockade of Samui and Phuket airports again?

Throughout Dem controlled areas there are to be sit-ins, occupations.

This is not spontaneous.

This is orchestrated and I believe it will all fail.

Otherwise the next likely scenario will be the americans breathing down their necks for another election within a year like after the last coup which Pheu Thai or whatever they are

calling themselves will win hands down.

Still the coup constitution will remain then intact no doubt further strengthened with mass arrests of red shirts and Pheu Thai MPs.

In short the country will remain as it did after the last coup at a standstill or worse and all the divisions further hardened.

It looks to me that the Dems have been bamboozled.

Time will tell.

It may be fun and games to many on Thaivisa but there still remains the remote possibility, worst case scenario, of armed struggle.

[MrSlatersParrot]

The Democrats consistently walk out of Parliamentary debates if they disagree with what is being mooted. They are not refused the right to speak they are deliberately abstaining from voting because they know that they will lose the vote

Thaksin is an unfortunate distraction in this attempt by Pheu Thai to draw a line under the unfortunate events of the past few years.

Yellow shirts have killed people, Red shirts have killed people, members of the political parties and the security forces have often been complicit in the deaths. But the only way forward in my view is a period of forgiveness and reconciliation such as we witnessed in South Africa following the end of apartheid

I have just watched one of the leaders of the Democratic party on YouTube ranting and raving and fermenting violence. He reminded me of Adolph Hitler addressing a Nuremberg Rally. So puffed up is he with his own importance he cannot comprehend that his warlike rhetoric and bile may well cost the lives of yet more, often innocent, citizens

In saying all this now is clearly not the right moment for Mr Thaksin to return to Thailand. Memories must be allowed to dim further.

What Thailand needs at this time is a benevolent dictator. Thais are like the Egyptians. They are not ready for democracy

Erm.... why do we need a period of forgiveness? That doesn't make things better because many are not willing to forgive and is why we have this uproar at the moment.... isn't it?

What we need is a period of non-corrupt, non-manipulative and fair justice for all. If any member of my family died, no matter from what side of the fence, I would not forgive, I would want justice.

All you are promoting is a lame and lazy cop out.

You live in Thailand?

Western ideals. Surely you know that ain't going to happen

A way off yet.

The dems will protest over everything ad nauseam from now.

They didn't vote against this amnesty they walked out.

Come an election will they boycott it like before?

They are above everyone.

Yes I live in Thailand.

Western Ideals?? Democracy is an international system. Nothing to do with western ideals. If a country embraces democracy, it is expected to at least honour the basic foundation of democracy.

Sounds to me that your dislike for the democrats is over-riding your judgement. If democrats refuse to be part of something glaringly undemocratic, then by my book, that is fair enough. Or they wouldn't be seen to be a very democratic democrat party.... would they?

The amnesty bill originally was intended to get those imprisoned on charges of unlawfull assembly etc and not for using violence, to get them released through a general amnesty that would also include the few yellow shirts similarly detained.

There was no amnesty for those who orchestrated, prepetrated and directed violence.

Now the amnesty proposes going back to the coup appointed groups like the Asset scrutiny committee set up by members of the PAD and for those highly politically charged prosecutions to be set aside or re-investigated.

I'm not sure if I have that right but I would agree with that course of action.

Yes that could lead to Thaksin's return but if there are further serious prosecutions waiting for his return surely they should then proceed as they must pertain to BEFORE the coup.

The coup leaders have given themselves immunity already.

I don't see any complaints from the Dems or on Thaivisa actually.

The bickering must end. The country needs to move on.

[klubex99]

I think it's pretty clear to everyone what the Dems plan is.

Right now in Ban Saphan you have rubber protestors bussed in from the deep south disrupting local and regional communities.

We used to call these "Flying pickets." Not from these parts.

The up coming Preah hindu temple decision is likely to infuriate the right wing nationalist groups. Expect these groups to enter stage right shortly.

We've seen a group "spontaneously" created out of hospital staff but that includes "Mad" Dr Tul, you know the guy Nick Nostitz described as attempting to lynch some red shirts his followers had corralled.

Expect more good intentioned "groups" to appear. A crude parody of trade union marches.

Suthep made us all aware of his plans for Surat Thani.

Will that include a blockade of Samui and Phuket airports again?

Throughout Dem controlled areas there are to be sit-ins, occupations.

This is not spontaneous.

This is orchestrated and I believe it will all fail.

Otherwise the next likely scenario will be the americans breathing down their necks for another election within a year like after the last coup which Pheu Thai or whatever they are

calling themselves will win hands down.

Still the coup constitution will remain then intact no doubt further strengthened with mass arrests of red shirts and Pheu Thai MPs.

In short the country will remain as it did after the last coup at a standstill or worse and all the divisions further hardened.

It looks to me that the Dems have been bamboozled.

Time will tell.

It may be fun and games to many on Thaivisa but there still remains the remote possibility, worst case scenario, of armed struggle.

Nope... The PTP did not win the election after the last coup. It was the People's Power Party (Pro-Thaksin) in 2007. They were then thrown out by the constitutional court and banned as a party a year later and the Dems were put into power. Should there actually be another coup they are hardly going to remove the PTP and hold an election just so that the non educates from the countryside can vote them straight back in. It don't work like that.

[klubex99]

You live in Thailand?

Western ideals. Surely you know that ain't going to happen

A way off yet.

The dems will protest over everything ad nauseam from now.

They didn't vote against this amnesty they walked out.

Come an election will they boycott it like before?

They are above everyone.

Yes I live in Thailand.

Western Ideals?? Democracy is an international system. Nothing to do with western ideals. If a country embraces democracy, it is expected to at least honour the basic foundation of democracy.

Sounds to me that your dislike for the democrats is over-riding your judgement. If democrats refuse to be part of something glaringly undemocratic, then by my book, that is fair enough. Or they wouldn't be seen to be a very democratic democrat party.... would they?

The amnesty bill originally was intended to get those imprisoned on charges of unlawfull assembly etc and not for using violence, to get them released through a general amnesty that would also include the few yellow shirts similarly detained.

There was no amnesty for those who orchestrated, prepetrated and directed violence.

Now the amnesty proposes going back to the coup appointed groups like the Asset scrutiny committee set up by members of the PAD and for those highly politically charged prosecutions to be set aside or re-investigated.

I'm not sure if I have that right but I would agree with that course of action.

Yes that could lead to Thaksin's return but if there are further serious prosecutions waiting for his return surely they should then proceed as they must pertain to BEFORE the coup.

The coup leaders have given themselves immunity already.

I don't see any complaints from the Dems or on Thaivisa actually.

The bickering must end. The country needs to move on.

The amnesty bill is a blanket amnesty that cover all those who committed offenses during the political turmoil between 2006 and 2013.

Having said that, on a side point. If Thaksin does get to come home, then wouldn't he still have to face other charges hanging over him that are not connected to the whitewashing bill?

Such as

Absconding from court.

Breech of bail conditions.

The land deal scandal

Surely these are not offenses connected to the amnesty bill.

Also, isn't it in the constitution that any convicted felon can not apply to be elected as an MP let alone Prime Minister?

If this is the case, then Thaksin will have to continue to run the PTP via skype.

Edited November 1, 2013 by klubex99

[waza]

Kokaew says he voted for amnesty bill because he respects majority's decision

The Nation

BANGKOK: -- Pheu Thai MP and red-shirt leader Kokaew Pikulthong has defended his decision in backing the amnesty bill, saying he had to respect the majority decision of party MPs.

Kokaew posted a message on his Facebook wall that he weighed the pros and cons and made a decision at just 3 am Friday morning before the voting on Article 3.

The article 3 seeks to grant blanket amnesty to all sides.

Kokaew said in the message that he felt very painful to vote for the article in the second reading and for the bill in the third reading but he had to respect the decision of the party.

He said red-shirt people, who became disillusion in him, can scold him anyway they like.

-- The Nation 2013-11-01

He is supposed to be representing his constituents, not the other MPs.

Oh, now they are supposed to represent their constituents. That part of the link between candidate and electorate is conveniently dismissed when you try and justify the election of abhisit to PM. When the Friends of Newin disregarded the parties that their constituents favoured and crossed over to form a coalition with the opposition democrat party. I'll keep that in mind.

Fab4 try to get your fact right, Kokaew's constituents are redshirts, he's not part of the Newin group.

[sustento]

On a purely personal note is anything likely to kick off before next Friday (8th)? I don't mind being stuck in-country for a while (I was the last time they had fun) but I'd like to arrive before they start if possible.

[waza]

You live in Thailand?

Western ideals. Surely you know that ain't going to happen

A way off yet.

The dems will protest over everything ad nauseam from now.

They didn't vote against this amnesty they walked out.

Come an election will they boycott it like before?

They are above everyone.

Yes I live in Thailand.

Western Ideals?? Democracy is an international system. Nothing to do with western ideals. If a country embraces democracy, it is expected to at least honour the basic foundation of democracy.

Sounds to me that your dislike for the democrats is over-riding your judgement. If democrats refuse to be part of something glaringly undemocratic, then by my book, that is fair enough. Or they wouldn't be seen to be a very democratic democrat party.... would they?

The amnesty bill originally was intended to get those imprisoned on charges of unlawfull assembly etc and not for using violence, to get them released through a general amnesty that would also include the few yellow shirts similarly detained.

There was no amnesty for those who orchestrated, prepetrated and directed violence.

Now the amnesty proposes going back to the coup appointed groups like the Asset scrutiny committee set up by members of the PAD and for those highly politically charged prosecutions to be set aside or re-investigated.

I'm not sure if I have that right but I would agree with that course of action.

Yes that could lead to Thaksin's return but if there are further serious prosecutions waiting for his return surely they should then proceed as they must pertain to BEFORE the coup.

The coup leaders have given themselves immunity already.

I don't see any complaints from the Dems or on Thaivisa actually.

The bickering must end. The country needs to move on.

The amnesty bill is a blanket amnesty that cover all those who committed offenses during the political turmoil between 2006 and 2013.

Having said that, on a side point. If Thaksin does get to come home, then wouldn't he still have to face other charges hanging over him that are not connected to the whitewashing bill?

Such as

Absconding from court.

Breech of bail conditions.

The land deal scandal

Surely these are not offenses connected to the amnesty bill.

Also, isn't it in the constitution that any convicted felon can not apply to be elected as an MP let alone Prime Minister?

If this is the case, then Thaksin will have to continue to run the PTP via skype.

The amnesty covers a period from 2004 til 2013 and covers all Thaksin charges.

[klubex99]

On a purely personal note is anything likely to kick off before next Friday (8th)? I don't mind being stuck in-country for a while (I was the last time they had fun) but I'd like to arrive before they start if possible.

It says on the BBC website that it could all be finalized as soon as next week.

[wooloomooloo]

On a purely personal note is anything likely to kick off before next Friday (8th)? I don't mind being stuck in-country for a while (I was the last time they had fun) but I'd like to arrive before they start if possible.

Can we extend the deadline to Thursday, 14th, please. I'm also happy to be stuck in-country. My employer is invariably sympathetic to these inconveniences. Thanks in advance.

[wiki12]

From Bloomberg:-

“This is not the end,” said Somjai Phagaphasvivat, a political science lecturer at Thammasat University in Bangkok. “It’s clear that this draft bill is totally against the rule of law, freeing those convicts. It’s against the constitution.”

Now I suspect this gentleman may know a thing or two about the Thai legal system.

[wooloomooloo]

Now I suspect this gentleman may know a thing or two about the Thai legal system.

Then let the gentleman in question test his argument in law. He's up against 300+ of his peers.

[Robby nz]

I see it reported elsewhere that the senate is set to debate the bill on the 8th of Nov or the 11th at the latest.

The 11th being the day of the temple decision.

A distraction ?

[kangeroo]

Yes the bus in the village is getting serviced for the first time this year and shirts are being ironed in antisapation of 500bht being handed out and a trip to bkk .

[wooloomooloo]

A distraction ?

Distraction from what?

[BangkokHank]

If I were a corrupt dictator-in-exile who had had my ill-gotten gains confiscated, here's what I would do:

First I'd install a sister of mine in power (through the usual method of vote buying through populist but economically disastrous policies). Then I'd get my sister to propose an amnesty for me. In order to get the necessary votes for a proposal that would seriously damage the country, knowing that my fellow politicians are as corrupt and greedy as I am, I would offer to pay them, say, a million dollars each - payable upon the return of my fortune to me. (To pay 300 million to get back 4 billion is a good investment.) A win-win for all (political) parties concerned - but a loss for the rest of us who call Thailand home.

I'm not suggesting that this is what happened. I'm just saying that this is what I would do if I were a corrupt, greedy dictator.

[AleG]

The Thais on the web boards and facebook are up in arms over this blanket whitewash.

The biggest contributions are being made by red shirts.

My wife is flicking through them and showing me all the anti-Thaksin rants and smears that are now coming out from the red corner. They seem to be really turning against Thaksin now.

The sentiment seems to be spreading like wild fire across the red camp.

This is now proof positive that probably the entire population is against it. This is not going to go away or fizzle out, it is on the increase and when a whole population becomes angered, then there can really only be one outcome.

Don't believe those red shirts are turning against Thaksin ever. Their only issue is that if they want to whitewash Thaksin, which they want, is that they have to forgive Abhisit and Suthep.

Keep in mind that they are for the majority uneducated people and have no idea how a constitution works.

Take a trip to Thaksin's facebook page.

One person posted

'Thaksin, I always loved you, but now I hate you'.

Another posted 'shit' in Thai and with a macro image of a turd made up from the word shit.

Basically the missus was hunting down anti Thaksin sentiment exclusively from red shirt sources. I am fully aware of why the reds are opposed to the bill. But they appear to have more hate for that bill that they have love for Thaksin.

Hell hath no fury as a sheeple scorned

[Thai at Heart]

From Bloomberg:-

This is not the end, said Somjai Phagaphasvivat, a political science lecturer at Thammasat University in Bangkok. Its clear that this draft bill is totally against the rule of law, freeing those convicts. Its against the constitution.

Now I suspect this gentleman may know a thing or two about the Thai legal system.

Its against the constitution? Since when had that been an obstacle?

[NanLaew]

My dear fabby, we're talking about UDD leader and Pheu Thai party list MP Korkaew here. No constituency involved, just a 'nice' person charged for various crimes, enjoying parliamentary immunity and voting for his own amnesty. Even if we were to disregard the MP / politics, a UDD leader has voted FOR the amnesty which include the daemonised 'kill me some' Abhisit. Amazing, just iike the May 19th "it's over, go home", surrender to police and fellow protesters still fighting gunbattles.

Oh, now they are supposed to represent their constituents. That part of the link between candidate and electorate is conveniently dismissed when you try and justify the election of abhisit to PM. When the Friends of Newin disregarded the parties that their constituents favoured and crossed over to form a coalition with the opposition democrat party. I'll keep that in mind.

If you are posting in response to another post, please follow standard forum procedure of APPENDING your post to the message and NOT PREFIXING your post. My mouse scroll-wheel is buggered and you are making my life way too hard jumping back and forth to see what you're whining about.

My replies are always appended to the message I am replying to. I was replying to whybother - fairly obvious to see that, follow the boxes.

You would be better off directing your ire at rubl who alone on this board has decided that he will post his contribution to a post at the top of a message instead of below like everybody else.

You too have the option to put me on ignore so you won't have to see what I'm "whining" about. Oh and good luck with that mod job you so obviously crave.

If you 'follow the boxes', you will see that I was responding to rubl. Then we had a chat via PM and it was all explained, no drama.

Now what is your problem again?

[rixalex]

You are very quick to condemn others but your post shows an astonishing ignorance of the divisions of opinion within PTP and the redshirt movement on the expanded amnesty.

Of course yes, they are so divided on this matter, that every single PTP MP, bar four, voted yes. Those voting yes included 8 red shirt leaders. Those four brave principled souls who didn't vote yes, couldn't bring themselves to vote no. They dare throw Thaksin a look of displeasure, as a bit of theatrics for the benefit of their supporters, but they daren't slap the man in the face.... that would be rude.

People within PTP and the red shirts who don't matter, who don't have a say, who don't carry power, they may well be divided, but the people who do matter, who do have a say, and who do carry power, they, as always, have, almost to a man, stuck beside Thaksin.

[boomerangutang]

You are very quick to condemn others but your post shows an astonishing ignorance of the divisions of opinion within PTP and the redshirt movement on the expanded amnesty.

Of course yes, they are so divided on this matter, that every single PTP MP, bar four, voted yes. Those voting yes included 8 red shirt leaders. Those four brave principled souls who didn't vote yes, couldn't bring themselves to vote no. They dare throw Thaksin a look of displeasure, as a bit of theatrics for the benefit of their supporters, but they daren't slap the man in the face.... that would be rude.

People within PTP and the red shirts who don't matter, who don't have a say, who don't carry power, they may well be divided, but the people who do matter, who do have a say, and who do carry power, they, as always, have, almost to a man, stuck beside Thaksin.

So true. They all know who's got the biggest money bags and who's willing to do scorched earth retribution (against any who deign to disagree with Him) when He gets back in the PM's seat, which looks inevitable. Personally, I think he's aiming higher, perhaps already getting some special robes fitted to his size.

[jayboy]

You are very quick to condemn others but your post shows an astonishing ignorance of the divisions of opinion within PTP and the redshirt movement on the expanded amnesty.

Of course yes, they are so divided on this matter, that every single PTP MP, bar four, voted yes. Those voting yes included 8 red shirt leaders. Those four brave principled souls who didn't vote yes, couldn't bring themselves to vote no. They dare throw Thaksin a look of displeasure, as a bit of theatrics for the benefit of their supporters, but they daren't slap the man in the face.... that would be rude.

People within PTP and the red shirts who don't matter, who don't have a say, who don't carry power, they may well be divided, but the people who do matter, who do have a say, and who do carry power, they, as always, have, almost to a man, stuck beside Thaksin.

I don't disagree.The PTP parliamentary party has towed the Thaksin line.But it's far from being the opinion ofPTP/redshirt/ liberal and progressive opinion in the country at large.Nitirat - for example -, the group that the usual suspects moronically described as Thaksin lackeys, has been very clear about its disapproval.

Edited November 2, 2013 by jayboy

[NanLaew]

...

Keep in mind that they are for the majority uneducated people and have no idea how a constitution works.

Unlike the learned members of TV posting herein?

Here's a radical thought; how about Thai's knowing exactly how the Thai constitution works? They have had enough of the bloody things after all.

So the Senate rolls over on this Amnesty Bill (it's only a matter of buying off more career politico's after all) and after much wailing and gnashing of teeth, the (self) anointed one returns. Then it gets real rowdy, real quick and the Army eventually steps in and seriously pisses on EVERYONE'S parade. After issuing the usual admonishments and arbitrary jail terms (and a quick rewrite of the Constitution so they can renew their 'Get Out of Jail' card), they dick about for 3 to 5 years while the Democrats try and get their act together. Meanwhile the Thai economy doggy paddles and development stagnates another 5-years (still no 4G, sorry...). Curiously, there's still no huge abandonment by the Japanese and other multinational investors but by the same token, there's no new money lining up; that's slipping next door into Myanmar. Eventually, the Democrats get pole-position at forming yet another post-coup "people's" government. However, it is promptly burdened with trying all these PTP, red-shirt and otherwise tainted personages that the Army banged up but chose not to <deleted> with since that meant getting off the fence and showing true colours. More sentences, even more appeals and the inevitable pardons for those with money and connections. So, with one leg tied behind their back, the Dems get pushed into another arse-kicking contest... and get their <deleted> kicked... AGAIN.

Have I missed anything?

I mean anything that we are allowed to talk about here?

[rixalex]

I don't disagree.The PTP parliamentary party has towed the Thaksin line.But it's far from being the opinion ofPTP/redshirt/ liberal and progressive opinion in the country at large.Nitirat - for example -, the group that the usual suspects moronically described as Thaksin lackeys, has been very clear about its disapproval.

It's not only PTP that has towed the line, it is also, for all intents and purposes, the red shirts who have towed the line. Remember them, the ones who are "more than just a Thaksin support group", the ones who are "evolving into a true grassroots movement of the people"?

As for those "friends" of Thaksin who have been brave enough to express their disapproval, let's not mislead anyone here. Their disapproval concerns the whitewashing of those involved in the deaths of the protesters. It has nothing to do with Thaksin being whitewashed. If they could have contrived a way (they may still do) in which Thaksin be whitewashed, but Abhisit and co left out, you wouldn't be hearing even a murmur of dissent right now.

[jayboy]

I don't disagree.The PTP parliamentary party has towed the Thaksin line.But it's far from being the opinion ofPTP/redshirt/ liberal and progressive opinion in the country at large.Nitirat - for example -, the group that the usual suspects moronically described as Thaksin lackeys, has been very clear about its disapproval.

It's not only PTP that has towed the line, it is also, for all intents and purposes, the red shirts who have towed the line. Remember them, the ones who are "more than just a Thaksin support group", the ones who are "evolving into a true grassroots movement of the people"?

As for those "friends" of Thaksin who have been brave enough to express their disapproval, let's not mislead anyone here. Their disapproval concerns the whitewashing of those involved in the deaths of the protesters. It has nothing to do with Thaksin being whitewashed. If they could have contrived a way (they may still do) in which Thaksin be whitewashed, but Abhisit and co left out, you wouldn't be hearing even a murmur of dissent right now.

No, on this you are simply wrong.There have been some excellent articles on this subject recently, notably by David Streckfuss in the other paper.

[rixalex]

But my main conclusion - what an idiot Thaksin is.

One more thing jayboy, you are always quick to defend Yingluck and to argue that far from being a puppet, she is her own woman and has developed into a competent and able leader. If you truly believed those things were true, you wouldn't only be calling Thaksin an idiot, you would be calling the Prime Minister of this country, who has overseen this ridiculous farce that could potentially bring this country to its knees, an idiot too.

[rixalex]

I don't disagree.The PTP parliamentary party has towed the Thaksin line.But it's far from being the opinion ofPTP/redshirt/ liberal and progressive opinion in the country at large.Nitirat - for example -, the group that the usual suspects moronically described as Thaksin lackeys, has been very clear about its disapproval.

It's not only PTP that has towed the line, it is also, for all intents and purposes, the red shirts who have towed the line. Remember them, the ones who are "more than just a Thaksin support group", the ones who are "evolving into a true grassroots movement of the people"?

As for those "friends" of Thaksin who have been brave enough to express their disapproval, let's not mislead anyone here. Their disapproval concerns the whitewashing of those involved in the deaths of the protesters. It has nothing to do with Thaksin being whitewashed. If they could have contrived a way (they may still do) in which Thaksin be whitewashed, but Abhisit and co left out, you wouldn't be hearing even a murmur of dissent right now.

No, on this you are simply wrong.There have been some excellent articles on this subject recently, notably by David Streckfuss in the other paper.

The only time you will be able to say i am wrong, is if a situation is contrived in which Thaksin gets his get out of jail free card, but Abhisit and co don't, and those "friends" of Thaksin, remain vocal in their disagreement. That is the only real test on how strongly they are opposed to Thaksin's whitewash.

My guess is that they are as strongly as opposed as all those divided of opinion PTP and red shirt MPs were, when over 300 hundred of them voted yes.