Red shirts feel betrayed: Amnesty push turns anger against Thaksin and Pheu Thai

[Bluespunk]

"Sombat Boonngam-anong, Red Sunday group leader, said he would try to muster 10,000 red shirts on November 10 to demonstrate against the bill. Sombat acknowledged that there was nothing opponents of the bill could do to stop the parliamentary process but added that the red-shirt movement must reform itself."

Getting 20,000 stormtroopers to rally against something you can't changes? Doing the same old thing while stating you need to reform? Now, that is red shirt philosophy 101. Stupid, reactionary, potentially violent, and contradictory. At least some things never change.

You obviously know little about Sombat if you're describing him as 'stupid, reactionary...' etc, the antonyms of the adjectives you used would more properly describe him. And if you profess to care about the state of Thai democracy whilst praising the likes of Abhisit and Suthep and criticizing Sombat, especially now, then that's just ridiculous.

My comments were directed at the red shirts as a whole and how this statement reflects what they are. Don't know where your Abhisit and Suthep comment came from, however you are right about my caring about democracy and fascists like the red shirts have no place in it.

[Emptyset]

I love this "excitement" shown by the Thaksin haters about reds shirts being betrayed. It makes several people feel energised and quickly jump to conclusions. Don't worry, nothing will happen. The reds are not turning yellows. They will not turn against their elected leaders. Everything is ok, no worries. However, I do sympathize with the reds who have had loved ones shot during the 2010 crackdown. I fully understand their disappointment. Its must be hard to accept that Abhisit and Suthep will walk free, instead of rotting in prison. But reconciliation is the best that can happen to the country. So is the amnesty. Most realise that. An alternative would be to quickly judge and condemn all the trouble makers, including all the yellows who took the country hostage, the ones who seized airports, the responsible of the 90 deaths of 2010, etc..., and throw them in prison. But it would drag for years and years with very little results. So, lets be realistic. The wise thing to do is to reset everything. Most are ready for it. Ready for reconciliation. A minority prefers to keep going on with the ongoing destructive situation and refuse to put the country back on track. Many here love to read about "anger" and feel good when reading the article of a biased newspaper. But anger does not lead anywhere. Sent from my HTC One using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Don't be so sure. I wouldn't expect the red shirts to turn against PT on a massive scale simply because they don't have many places to go. Still, there is genuine anger, especially amongst those who consider themselves more 'progressive'. I doubt anyone who's read my posts here over the last few years would consider me one of those people who 'hate Thaksin' (although I've always disliked him and now consider him something close to a pathological psychopath - but he's not alone there...), yet I honestly don't feel amnesty will necessarily serve Thailand well here. I agreed with the initial bill. Amnesty for ordinary red shirts and yellow shirts etc but not leaders, and certainly not Thaksin. I think this just illustrates the contempt Thaksin has for those who have supported him through thick and thin. The support didn't come from nowhere. Thaksin was smart enough to realize that the poor of the north and north-east were an untapped electoral potential. And to gain their support, he did do things that made a difference to their lives. There were tangible things that were gained by voting for Thaksin that wouldn't have been achieved by voting for others. I think that much is a pretty well accepted fact by now. But all the things that Thaksin did over the years: the war on drugs, which I feel most strongly about, the corruption and authoritarianism... all that can't be simply excused. Especially the way Thaksin is doing things now - not even a sincere apology. At the moment I'd say that there's no good 'side'. Neither the military, amaat or Dems, or PT and Thaksin deserve the support of the Thai people imo - but I do think there are progressive folks who've been on both sides, and between sides in the last decade or so, and they're the ones I'll be hoping make a difference... probably a forlorn hope, yes, and as someone who can't even vote, maybe it'd be better to remain cynical on the sidelines - but I hope for better for Thailand, so...

[Emptyset]

"Sombat Boonngam-anong, Red Sunday group leader, said he would try to muster 10,000 red shirts on November 10 to demonstrate against the bill. Sombat acknowledged that there was nothing opponents of the bill could do to stop the parliamentary process but added that the red-shirt movement must reform itself."

Getting 20,000 stormtroopers to rally against something you can't changes? Doing the same old thing while stating you need to reform? Now, that is red shirt philosophy 101. Stupid, reactionary, potentially violent, and contradictory. At least some things never change.

You obviously know little about Sombat if you're describing him as 'stupid, reactionary...' etc, the antonyms of the adjectives you used would more properly describe him. And if you profess to care about the state of Thai democracy whilst praising the likes of Abhisit and Suthep and criticizing Sombat, especially now, then that's just ridiculous.

My comments were directed at the red shirts as a whole and how this statement reflects what they are. Don't know where your Abhisit and Suthep comment came from, however you are right about my caring about democracy and fascists like the red shirts have no place in it.

You seem relatively reasonable compared to some on this board, yet still dismiss ALL the red shirts as 'fascists' based on the actions of a few - if you're going to do that you might as well dismiss all Thai political groups as fascistic, be done with it and never comment again because your position is simply untenable. Yes, there have been red shirt actions that reflect an authoritarianism, but that simply reflects Thai culture generally, I feel, and isn't specific to the red shirts. People like Sombat are about as progressive as you can get as far as Thailand goes and those who support him joined the red shirts in order to push Thailand away from its authoritarian past, not further towards it.

[FarangTalk]

If everyone votes out of respect for the majority, it means the first person decides how everyone votes.

Maybe if everyone voted how they wanted, or particularly for an MP, how the people who voted for them wanted, then maybe the majority would actually vote differently.

Which is exactly what I was saying vis a vis the Friends of Newin and the abhisit coalition MP vote but you seem to think its different. I've got news for you there's a common demoninator - a reward of some sorts, usually money.

The friends of Newin group was recruited specifically to vote-buy in the North East, where the Democrats thought they could out-bid Thaksin for the rural vote.

They failed to take into consideration the underlying reasons for Thaksin's success in that region; policies the people believe benefit themselves and instead focused on financial incentive. The people saw through the sham though and recognised Newin as the corrupt gangster he was, and always has been.

Thaksin will take one for the team now by aggravating some of the red shirts, but once he's back he'll make moves to appease them and start to extract revenge on those of his enemies that received amnesty.

He's in a stronger position now than ever.

[Bluespunk]

"Sombat Boonngam-anong, Red Sunday group leader, said he would try to muster 10,000 red shirts on November 10 to demonstrate against the bill. Sombat acknowledged that there was nothing opponents of the bill could do to stop the parliamentary process but added that the red-shirt movement must reform itself."

Getting 20,000 stormtroopers to rally against something you can't changes? Doing the same old thing while stating you need to reform? Now, that is red shirt philosophy 101. Stupid, reactionary, potentially violent, and contradictory. At least some things never change.

You obviously know little about Sombat if you're describing him as 'stupid, reactionary...' etc, the antonyms of the adjectives you used would more properly describe him. And if you profess to care about the state of Thai democracy whilst praising the likes of Abhisit and Suthep and criticizing Sombat, especially now, then that's just ridiculous.

My comments were directed at the red shirts as a whole and how this statement reflects what they are. Don't know where your Abhisit and Suthep comment came from, however you are right about my caring about democracy and fascists like the red shirts have no place in it.

You seem relatively reasonable compared to some on this board, yet still dismiss ALL the red shirts as 'fascists' based on the actions of a few - if you're going to do that you might as well dismiss all Thai political groups as fascistic, be done with it and never comment again because your position is simply untenable. Yes, there have been red shirt actions that reflect an authoritarianism, but that simply reflects Thai culture generally, I feel, and isn't specific to the red shirts. People like Sombat are about as progressive as you can get as far as Thailand goes and those who support him joined the red shirts in order to push Thailand away from its authoritarian past, not further towards it.

The red shirt movement is fascistic in its philosophy and actions. If there are those within the group who are opposed to this they should leave and form a separate grouping with a different philosophy. My views on the red shirts are based on their actions.

[h90]

The best way to sort out this mess is for PT to do what the Democrat's did when they were in power and put their constitution to a referendum.

Let the people decide not the politicians.

When did the Democrats put their constitution to a referendum?

[jayboy]

The best way to sort out this mess is for PT to do what the Democrat's did when they were in power and put their constitution to a referendum.

Let the people decide not the politicians.

When did the Democrats put their constitution to a referendum?

Never.The grimy alliance of feudalists and generals who ushered the Democrats into power did that.Interesting that though they said the military imposed constitution would be implemented regardless of the referendum result and the Thai people were sick and tired of politics, the wretched document only scraped through.The amart script didn't anticipate that.

[Emptyset]

If everyone votes out of respect for the majority, it means the first person decides how everyone votes.

Maybe if everyone voted how they wanted, or particularly for an MP, how the people who voted for them wanted, then maybe the majority would actually vote differently.

Which is exactly what I was saying vis a vis the Friends of Newin and the abhisit coalition MP vote but you seem to think its different. I've got news for you there's a common demoninator - a reward of some sorts, usually money.

The friends of Newin group was recruited specifically to vote-buy in the North East, where the Democrats thought they could out-bid Thaksin for the rural vote.

They failed to take into consideration the underlying reasons for Thaksin's success in that region; policies the people believe benefit themselves and instead focused on financial incentive. The people saw through the sham though and recognised Newin as the corrupt gangster he was, and always has been.

Thaksin will take one for the team now by aggravating some of the red shirts, but once he's back he'll make moves to appease them and start to extract revenge on those of his enemies that received amnesty.

He's in a stronger position now than ever.

I think first and foremost, Newin was recruited by the military for the Dems because they needed the votes in parliament to make Abhisit PM. If they had any thoughts of vote buying, they were secondary, and I think they already knew that any such strategy along those lines wouldn't work too well: after all, in the NE, Puea Pandin were beaten convincingly by Thaksin's party in 07, despite spending three times the cash (Korn even said as much). If they thought it was as simple as buying an election, they wouldn't have any worries, really lol. Don't you think all those who oppose Thaksin combined have far more money than he does? It's clearly about more than simply money, as you say in your second paragraph, except in Newin's case I'm not sure anyone really 'saw through the sham', as I don't think anyone expected him to win many seats except around Burriram, where he always wins.

"Thaksin will take one for the team" - what team is that? Team Thaksin? lol. Even if it's true that he's in a stronger position than ever - which remains to be seen, he may in fact be weaker than ever - why do you seem to be celebrating that fact? Maybe you're just being matter of fact, but the tone of your post seems almost gleeful.

[Baerboxer]

Still a lot of brainwashed up in Issan who will support him whatever.

Mrs was visiting a friend the other day who has just got back from visiting her rellies in Issan and told of visiting two of her elderly aunts who live in a broken down old shack.

Said the two were sitting outside in the dirt telling her how sorry they felt for Thaksin for all the bad things that had been done to him.

That's right, two old dears without even a chair to sit on feeling sorry for a multi billionaire flying around the world in his private jet.

Interesting that you should patronise poor people, albeit in a proletarian form of English, as "brainwashed" but lack the compassion and emotional intelligence to comprehend why Thaksin is admired.Prior to Thaksin ordinary rural people (the majority of Thais) were simply taken for granted by politicians.Thaksin changed that and millions are grateful.Hence his power as Thailand's most popular politician.Hence his parties' continued success in elections.However he seems to have overreached himself with the revised amnesty.We await with interest to see whether his enemies can be even more stupid and unwise.

Interesting that your posts spouting praise for the achievements of the convicted criminal fugitive former PM, who faces more serious criminal charges without his orchestrated whitewash, usually begin by attacking the intellect or behavior of the poster your responding to.

Perhaps you could tell us more of all these outstanding achievements Dr. Thaksin was responsible for, whilst also enriching himself and his family at the country's expense? You state he is Thailand's most popular politician - based on what evidence ? Your own wishes and opinion or something more real ?

Your continued need to attempt to demonstrate high intellect and belittle posters with different views makes you look very insecure. I'm sure that's not your intention. Your "assessments" of other posters are childish attempts to appear superior and add weight to your own light weight biased views, presenting them as fact, which they are not.

TRT and PTP are political vehicles created to forward the interests of the Shin clan in imposing a political dictatorial dynasty on Thailand. Thaksin has demonstrated over and over again that he is only interested in himself, power, and clan. You can continue to attempt to portray him as a man of the people, a sort of Robin Hood figure if you want to. Your harmless enough.

Edited November 2, 2013 by Baerboxer

[robertson468]

I believe K Thaksin is displaying the classical symptoms of a megalomaniac. Inflated opinion of self and ones importance and power. His failure to comprehend that the relatives of those that were killed are looking for closure through legal means is a classical example and having used the Red Shirts to gain the high ground politically, has now decided that those who oppose him (progressive Red Shirts) due to having their own opinion about the current amnesty bill, are being barred from "the club". What I find is particularly frustrating is that he and his inner circle have managed to fool so many of the population, when there has been a minority trying to alert the Country what the real agenda is, but have been resoundly ignored. What I can't work out is why they have done this. Has it been for short term gain or do they actually hero worship him, a little bit like the Germans did with Hitler? Interesting

[Baerboxer]

The best way to sort out this mess is for PT to do what the Democrat's did when they were in power and put their constitution to a referendum.

Let the people decide not the politicians.

When did the Democrats put their constitution to a referendum?

Never.The grimy alliance of feudalists and generals who ushered the Democrats into power did that.Interesting that though they said the military imposed constitution would be implemented regardless of the referendum result and the Thai people were sick and tired of politics, the wretched document only scraped through.The amart script didn't anticipate that.

Thank you for your opinion, which whilst valuable and a contribution, is of course not to be confused with a fact.

PTP were advised by the courts to go to a referendum. If, as you claim, Thaksin is the most popular politician and PTP the populist party of the people why won't they do this? Because they know they'll loose. More and more people see Thaksin and his gang for what they are. Only PTP want Thaksin back at any cost. No one else does. He's a convicted crook.

Is just sad there isn't even a credible opposition who would really represent the majority of the people.

[jayboy]

Still a lot of brainwashed up in Issan who will support him whatever.

Mrs was visiting a friend the other day who has just got back from visiting her rellies in Issan and told of visiting two of her elderly aunts who live in a broken down old shack.

Said the two were sitting outside in the dirt telling her how sorry they felt for Thaksin for all the bad things that had been done to him.

That's right, two old dears without even a chair to sit on feeling sorry for a multi billionaire flying around the world in his private jet.

Interesting that you should patronise poor people, albeit in a proletarian form of English, as "brainwashed" but lack the compassion and emotional intelligence to comprehend why Thaksin is admired.Prior to Thaksin ordinary rural people (the majority of Thais) were simply taken for granted by politicians.Thaksin changed that and millions are grateful.Hence his power as Thailand's most popular politician.Hence his parties' continued success in elections.However he seems to have overreached himself with the revised amnesty.We await with interest to see whether his enemies can be even more stupid and unwise.

Interesting that your posts spouting praise for the achievements of the convicted criminal fugitive former PM, who faces more serious criminal charges without his orchestrated whitewash, usually begin by attacking the intellect or behavior of the poster your responding to.

Perhaps you could tell us more of all these outstanding achievements Dr. Thaksin was responsible for, whilst also enriching himself and his family at the country's expense? You state he is Thailand's most popular politician - based on what evidence ? Your own wishes and opinion or something more real ?

Your continued need to attempt to demonstrate high intellect and belittle posters with different views makes you look very insecure. I'm sure that's not your intention. Your "assessments" of other posters are childish attempts to appear superior and add weight to your own light weight biased views, presenting them as fact, which they are not.

TRT and PTP are political vehicles created to forward the interests of the Shin clan in imposing a political dictatorial dynasty on Thailand. Thaksin has demonstrated over and over again that he is only interested in himself, power, and clan. You can continue to attempt to portray him as a man of the people, a sort of Robin Hood figure if you want to. Your harmless enough.

I am only amused at the frequency at which semi educated foreigners (as indicated by the poor grammar/syntax etc of their posts) feel entitled to criticise poor rural Thais - who have never had the chances afforded to foreigners (even retired sex tourists ).Without that kind of insufferable arrogance I wouldn't bother to point out slovenly expressed posts.And in any case when will you people stop confusing intelligence with education.

Returning to my post you have typically failed (again) to understand the point.It's not a question of "spouting praise" for Thaksin.He followed populist policies later copied and enhanced by the Democrats but his significance was that he was the first PM to take the rural majority seriously.Hence his commanding rank as Thailand's most popular politician - due to gratitude and loyalty.It has nothing to do with his moral character or his motives.

Edited November 2, 2013 by jayboy

[Baerboxer]

I love this "excitement" shown by the Thaksin haters about reds shirts being betrayed. It makes several people feel energised and quickly jump to conclusions. Don't worry, nothing will happen. The reds are not turning yellows. They will not turn against their elected leaders. Everything is ok, no worries. However, I do sympathize with the reds who have had loved ones shot during the 2010 crackdown. I fully understand their disappointment. Its must be hard to accept that Abhisit and Suthep will walk free, instead of rotting in prison. But reconciliation is the best that can happen to the country. So is the amnesty. Most realise that. An alternative would be to quickly judge and condemn all the trouble makers, including all the yellows who took the country hostage, the ones who seized airports, the responsible of the 90 deaths of 2010, etc..., and throw them in prison. But it would drag for years and years with very little results. So, lets be realistic. The wise thing to do is to reset everything. Most are ready for it. Ready for reconciliation. A minority prefers to keep going on with the ongoing destructive situation and refuse to put the country back on track. Many here love to read about "anger" and feel good when reading the article of a biased newspaper. But anger does not lead anywhere. Sent from my HTC One using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Don't be so sure. I wouldn't expect the red shirts to turn against PT on a massive scale simply because they don't have many places to go. Still, there is genuine anger, especially amongst those who consider themselves more 'progressive'. I doubt anyone who's read my posts here over the last few years would consider me one of those people who 'hate Thaksin' (although I've always disliked him and now consider him something close to a pathological psychopath - but he's not alone there...), yet I honestly don't feel amnesty will necessarily serve Thailand well here. I agreed with the initial bill. Amnesty for ordinary red shirts and yellow shirts etc but not leaders, and certainly not Thaksin. I think this just illustrates the contempt Thaksin has for those who have supported him through thick and thin. The support didn't come from nowhere. Thaksin was smart enough to realize that the poor of the north and north-east were an untapped electoral potential. And to gain their support, he did do things that made a difference to their lives. There were tangible things that were gained by voting for Thaksin that wouldn't have been achieved by voting for others. I think that much is a pretty well accepted fact by now. But all the things that Thaksin did over the years: the war on drugs, which I feel most strongly about, the corruption and authoritarianism... all that can't be simply excused. Especially the way Thaksin is doing things now - not even a sincere apology. At the moment I'd say that there's no good 'side'. Neither the military, amaat or Dems, or PT and Thaksin deserve the support of the Thai people imo - but I do think there are progressive folks who've been on both sides, and between sides in the last decade or so, and they're the ones I'll be hoping make a difference... probably a forlorn hope, yes, and as someone who can't even vote, maybe it'd be better to remain cynical on the sidelines - but I hope for better for Thailand, so...

A well balanced post sir, I thank you! It's a real shame that the progressive elements within the Thai people, red shirts and others, have no real places to go. If only there was a real democratic party, looking to truly represent the interests of the people and country. Sadly, there isn't and indeed don't appear to be many political parties and politicians like this around the world.

The current choices seems a return to the "old" powers, controlled by the 30 families amart or whatever, versus the Shin clan new dynasty, which will screw the country and benefit the Shin clan and cronies, based on current performance and declared strategies. What a choice !

[Baerboxer]

Still a lot of brainwashed up in Issan who will support him whatever.

Mrs was visiting a friend the other day who has just got back from visiting her rellies in Issan and told of visiting two of her elderly aunts who live in a broken down old shack.

Said the two were sitting outside in the dirt telling her how sorry they felt for Thaksin for all the bad things that had been done to him.

That's right, two old dears without even a chair to sit on feeling sorry for a multi billionaire flying around the world in his private jet.

Interesting that you should patronise poor people, albeit in a proletarian form of English, as "brainwashed" but lack the compassion and emotional intelligence to comprehend why Thaksin is admired.Prior to Thaksin ordinary rural people (the majority of Thais) were simply taken for granted by politicians.Thaksin changed that and millions are grateful.Hence his power as Thailand's most popular politician.Hence his parties' continued success in elections.However he seems to have overreached himself with the revised amnesty.We await with interest to see whether his enemies can be even more stupid and unwise.

Interesting that your posts spouting praise for the achievements of the convicted criminal fugitive former PM, who faces more serious criminal charges without his orchestrated whitewash, usually begin by attacking the intellect or behavior of the poster your responding to.

Perhaps you could tell us more of all these outstanding achievements Dr. Thaksin was responsible for, whilst also enriching himself and his family at the country's expense? You state he is Thailand's most popular politician - based on what evidence ? Your own wishes and opinion or something more real ?

Your continued need to attempt to demonstrate high intellect and belittle posters with different views makes you look very insecure. I'm sure that's not your intention. Your "assessments" of other posters are childish attempts to appear superior and add weight to your own light weight biased views, presenting them as fact, which they are not.

TRT and PTP are political vehicles created to forward the interests of the Shin clan in imposing a political dictatorial dynasty on Thailand. Thaksin has demonstrated over and over again that he is only interested in himself, power, and clan. You can continue to attempt to portray him as a man of the people, a sort of Robin Hood figure if you want to. Your harmless enough.

I am only amused at the frequency at which semi educated foreigners (as indicated by the poor grammar/syntax etc of their posts) feel entitled to criticise poor rural Thais - who have never had the chances afforded to foreigners (even retired sex tourists ).Without that kind of insufferable arrogance I wouldn't bother to point out slovenly expressed posts.And in any case when will you people stop confusing intelligence with education.

Returning to my post you have typically failed (again) to understand the point.It's not a question of "spouting praise" for Thaksin.He followed populist policies later copied and enhanced by the Democrats but his significance was that he was the first PM to take the rural majority seriously.Hence his commanding rank as Thailand's most popular politician - due to gratitude and loyalty.It has nothing to do with his moral character or his motives.

You just can't resist biting and showing your arrogant contempt for anyone challenging your views. I'm sure I equal if not surpass your academic qualifications, but as the forum rules say, I do not make comments about peoples' preferred style of writing, grammar and expression. You think your a genius - carry on if it make you happy.Your continued rudeness and belittling of others simply demonstrates your social inadequacies and inability to respond with intelligence and logic to those with a different view. I agree strongly with the view that educations and intelligence are not the same. You demonstrate neither. Since retiring as a sex tourist is this how you fill your time ?

Returning to your post. Usual response - hot air, conjecture and nothing of substance. Very similar to most PTP ministers news statements.

Edited November 2, 2013 by Baerboxer

[fab4]

If everyone votes out of respect for the majority, it means the first person decides how everyone votes.

Maybe if everyone voted how they wanted, or particularly for an MP, how the people who voted for them wanted, then maybe the majority would actually vote differently.

Which is exactly what I was saying vis a vis the Friends of Newin and the abhisit coalition MP vote but you seem to think its different. I've got news for you there's a common demoninator - a reward of some sorts, usually money.

Did the Friends of Newin go against their constituents wishes? Were their constituents out protesting against them joining the Democrats in government?

"Did the friends of Newin go against their constituents wishes"

What a naive question. Well, I don't know, what do you think?

You vote for an MP, just one of the (37) Friends of Newin Group. Newin (and by extension these MP's) was a former Thai Rak Thai Interior Minister and now PPP. Both parties associated with Thaksin. The group voted for Somchai as PM after Samak was indicted and resigned.

See where I'm going with this - the constituents votes are going towards Thaksin not the democrats.

After the dissolution of the PTP on the 2nd December 2008, the Friends of Newin had 60 days to register with another party or form a new one. On the 6th December Newin publicly announced his support for abhisit and assured him that Newin and his group would vote for him as PM.

Coincidentally on the 5th December there was a meeting between Newin, the Democrat Party and reps from the soon to be coalition parties to divvy up ministry positions. A press conference was convened for the next day but not before the colluding parties were invited to Gen Anupong Paochinda's residence to be persuaded of "their duty to the country". Also there were former army chief Gen Pravit Wongsuwan and army chief-of-staff Prayuth Chan-ocha.

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/home/Democrat-govt-a-shotgun-wedding--30090626.html

So why, oh why, are you the only person in Thailand to deny they betrayed Thaksin and their constituents when they ended up in the BJP to form a coalition for the democrat party after military (and monetary) persuasion?

"Were their constituents out protesting against them joining the Democrats in government?" Another naive question.

What where they going to do, ask for their votes back?

[siampolee]

What where they going to do, ask for their votes back?

Well your hero Thaksin is certainly seeking a return on the monies he has invested in the Red Shirts and the ensuing elections isn't he.

[jayboy]

I am only amused at the frequency at which semi educated foreigners (as indicated by the poor grammar/syntax etc of their posts) feel entitled to criticise poor rural Thais - who have never had the chances afforded to foreigners (even retired sex tourists ).Without that kind of insufferable arrogance I wouldn't bother to point out slovenly expressed posts.And in any case when will you people stop confusing intelligence with education.

Returning to my post you have typically failed (again) to understand the point.It's not a question of "spouting praise" for Thaksin.He followed populist policies later copied and enhanced by the Democrats but his significance was that he was the first PM to take the rural majority seriously.Hence his commanding rank as Thailand's most popular politician - due to gratitude and loyalty.It has nothing to do with his moral character or his motives.

You just can't resist biting and showing your arrogant contempt for anyone challenging your views. I'm sure I equal if not surpass your academic qualifications, but as the forum rules say, I do not make comments about peoples' preferred style of writing, grammar and expression. You think your a genius - carry on if it make you happy.Your continued rudeness and belittling of others simply demonstrates your social inadequacies and inability to respond with intelligence and logic to those with a different view. I agree strongly with the view that educations and intelligence are not the same. You demonstrate neither. Since retiring as a sex tourist is this how you fill your time ?

Returning to your post. Usual response - hot air, conjecture and nothing of substance. Very similar to most PTP ministers news statements.

You miss the point yet again.I never refer condescendingly to members' grammatical errors, typos (I make them myself - as you do) etc unless it is to underline the hypocrisy of some foreigner making snide comments about rural, "uneducated" or disadvantaged Thais.

Since my comments on this subject have been critical of PTP policy, I'm assuming you haven't been paying attention.

[fab4]

What's this post then?

"we're advancing to a position where everyone is paid off. Of course, you can also pay people to be violent and have certain 'individuals' taken out."

I don't know. What is that post?

Well now you've taken away the content of your post , it doesn't seem to make sense does it?

However when you read it as a reply to your statement on the last line of your Post #37 of this thread :

But Abhisit and Suthep aren't taking the fall. Their charges are being whitewashed as well. Given the talk by PTP to amend section 309 of the constitution, I doubt any deal has been done either.

I don't see people calling for Thaksin to be assassinated. They are suggesting that he will be.

Well, it shows an example of the very thing you say isn't here. As I said, just more semantics and now trying to be clever by removing the context - it hasn't worked.

[bigbamboo]

The best way to sort out this mess is for PT to do what the Democrat's did when they were in power and put their constitution to a referendum.

Let the people decide not the politicians.

OK, What constitution was this that the democrat party put to a referendum?

Gosh, all this talk that the Democrats and the military are one and the same has even confused me.

I should have course have said the Democrat supported constitution that was voted for by 60 per cent of the people.

[whybother]

I am only amused at the frequency at which semi educated foreigners (as indicated by the poor grammar/syntax etc of their posts) feel entitled to criticise poor rural Thais - who have never had the chances afforded to foreigners (even retired sex tourists ).Without that kind of insufferable arrogance I wouldn't bother to point out slovenly expressed posts.And in any case when will you people stop confusing intelligence with education.

Returning to my post you have typically failed (again) to understand the point.It's not a question of "spouting praise" for Thaksin.He followed populist policies later copied and enhanced by the Democrats but his significance was that he was the first PM to take the rural majority seriously.Hence his commanding rank as Thailand's most popular politician - due to gratitude and loyalty.It has nothing to do with his moral character or his motives.

So someone who's second language is English is "semi educated"? Does that mean you think every one in Isaan is uneducated, given their level of English?

[whybother]

If everyone votes out of respect for the majority, it means the first person decides how everyone votes.

Maybe if everyone voted how they wanted, or particularly for an MP, how the people who voted for them wanted, then maybe the majority would actually vote differently.

Which is exactly what I was saying vis a vis the Friends of Newin and the abhisit coalition MP vote but you seem to think its different. I've got news for you there's a common demoninator - a reward of some sorts, usually money.

Did the Friends of Newin go against their constituents wishes? Were their constituents out protesting against them joining the Democrats in government?

"Did the friends of Newin go against their constituents wishes"

What a naive question. Well, I don't know, what do you think?

You vote for an MP, just one of the (37) Friends of Newin Group. Newin (and by extension these MP's) was a former Thai Rak Thai Interior Minister and now PPP. Both parties associated with Thaksin. The group voted for Somchai as PM after Samak was indicted and resigned.

See where I'm going with this - the constituents votes are going towards Thaksin not the democrats.

After the dissolution of the PTP on the 2nd December 2008, the Friends of Newin had 60 days to register with another party or form a new one. On the 6th December Newin publicly announced his support for abhisit and assured him that Newin and his group would vote for him as PM.

Coincidentally on the 5th December there was a meeting between Newin, the Democrat Party and reps from the soon to be coalition parties to divvy up ministry positions. A press conference was convened for the next day but not before the colluding parties were invited to Gen Anupong Paochinda's residence to be persuaded of "their duty to the country". Also there were former army chief Gen Pravit Wongsuwan and army chief-of-staff Prayuth Chan-ocha.

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/home/Democrat-govt-a-shotgun-wedding--30090626.html

So why, oh why, are you the only person in Thailand to deny they betrayed Thaksin and their constituents when they ended up in the BJP to form a coalition for the democrat party after military (and monetary) persuasion?

"Were their constituents out protesting against them joining the Democrats in government?" Another naive question.

What where they going to do, ask for their votes back?

Who did they vote for before TRT? Probably the same people. As they do all over Thailand. It's often irrelevant which party they current belong to, the same people will for vote for them.

[fab4]

If everyone votes out of respect for the majority, it means the first person decides how everyone votes.

Maybe if everyone voted how they wanted, or particularly for an MP, how the people who voted for them wanted, then maybe the majority would actually vote differently.

Which is exactly what I was saying vis a vis the Friends of Newin and the abhisit coalition MP vote but you seem to think its different. I've got news for you there's a common demoninator - a reward of some sorts, usually money.

The friends of Newin group was recruited specifically to vote-buy in the North East, where the Democrats thought they could out-bid Thaksin for the rural vote.

They failed to take into consideration the underlying reasons for Thaksin's success in that region; policies the people believe benefit themselves and instead focused on financial incentive. The people saw through the sham though and recognised Newin as the corrupt gangster he was, and always has been.

Thaksin will take one for the team now by aggravating some of the red shirts, but once he's back he'll make moves to appease them and start to extract revenge on those of his enemies that received amnesty.

He's in a stronger position now than ever.

I would call it vote stealing. If it was vote buying, in theory the person who "donates" the votes would be compensated in some way for it. This is definitely not the case with the Friends of Newin and the Democrat collusion, unless you consider that once the votes have been cast the MP upon whom those votes were cast can do what they like with them, as does Whybother.

Edited November 2, 2013 by fab4

[whybother]

"Were their constituents out protesting against them joining the Democrats in government?" Another naive question.

What where they going to do, ask for their votes back?

Look at what the red shirts are doing at the moment. They're protesting.

[Baerboxer]

I am only amused at the frequency at which semi educated foreigners (as indicated by the poor grammar/syntax etc of their posts) feel entitled to criticise poor rural Thais - who have never had the chances afforded to foreigners (even retired sex tourists ).Without that kind of insufferable arrogance I wouldn't bother to point out slovenly expressed posts.And in any case when will you people stop confusing intelligence with education.

Returning to my post you have typically failed (again) to understand the point.It's not a question of "spouting praise" for Thaksin.He followed populist policies later copied and enhanced by the Democrats but his significance was that he was the first PM to take the rural majority seriously.Hence his commanding rank as Thailand's most popular politician - due to gratitude and loyalty.It has nothing to do with his moral character or his motives.

You just can't resist biting and showing your arrogant contempt for anyone challenging your views. I'm sure I equal if not surpass your academic qualifications, but as the forum rules say, I do not make comments about peoples' preferred style of writing, grammar and expression. You think your a genius - carry on if it make you happy.Your continued rudeness and belittling of others simply demonstrates your social inadequacies and inability to respond with intelligence and logic to those with a different view. I agree strongly with the view that educations and intelligence are not the same. You demonstrate neither. Since retiring as a sex tourist is this how you fill your time ?

Returning to your post. Usual response - hot air, conjecture and nothing of substance. Very similar to most PTP ministers news statements.

You miss the point yet again.I never refer condescendingly to members' grammatical errors, typos (I make them myself - as you do) etc unless it is to underline the hypocrisy of some foreigner making snide comments about rural, "uneducated" or disadvantaged Thais.

Since my comments on this subject have been critical of PTP policy, I'm assuming you haven't been paying attention.

I don't make comments about rural Thais. I do make comments about criminals, thugs, and the corrupt - especially ones who openly lie, plunder and cheat.

This is an open forum. Not all members are native English speakers and those that are have the choice to express their views in anyway they wish. Making comments about their intelligence and/or education is irrelevant and offensive. This forum is not a test of English grammar or keyboard skills.

You have been critical of PTP policy in that you think Thaksin and his regime may have over extended themselves. Maybe you will be proven correct. The thing is, I don't think Thaksin and his regime care, in anyway. He feels he has enough control and people in right places now to push this through so he can return. Once back, how long do you think it will be before he seizes power ? Do you really think Thaksin, as a dictator doing what he likes will be beneficial to the rural and uneducated disadvantaged Thais? If it would be, I personally would volunteer to help bodyguard him.

Europe required 2 world wars to change from feudal dynastic social based control to more real democracy (and many are sliding away from that!).

I hope Thailand can achieve this without the horrendous bloodshed and suffering. Almost all Thais I know are decent, honest family minded people. They deserve better than a bunch of openly lying self-enriching crooks, or feudal mentality Chinese families controlling their country.

[whybother]

What's this post then?

"we're advancing to a position where everyone is paid off. Of course, you can also pay people to be violent and have certain 'individuals' taken out."

I don't know. What is that post?

Well now you've taken away the content of your post , it doesn't seem to make sense does it?

However when you read it as a reply to your statement on the last line of your Post #37 of this thread :

But Abhisit and Suthep aren't taking the fall. Their charges are being whitewashed as well. Given the talk by PTP to amend section 309 of the constitution, I doubt any deal has been done either.

I don't see people calling for Thaksin to be assassinated. They are suggesting that he will be.

Well, it shows an example of the very thing you say isn't here. As I said, just more semantics and now trying to be clever by removing the context - it hasn't worked.

You put some quote in there and call it "a post". It just looks like something you typed in. Which post is it?

[klubex99]

All politicians in Thailand are from a "privileged class" .... people that steal from voters.

Thaksin is no different .... and anyone who doesn't understand that is a fool.

As someone else said he is only concerned with his own self interest first and foremost.

What I can't understand is why apparently western educated farangs (which are by far the minority) are so pro-Thaksin to the death almost and stand against anyone whom speak out against the scoundrel. (by far the vast majority).

Regardless of what level of intellect the majority farangs have, they are by far much more intelligent than the average Thai in the street, and way more well educated than the average Thai Thaksin supporter.

The only conclusion is that they came to Thailand and ended up making it their home after meeting an isaan girl in a bar and marrying her, or equally met a farm girl on an internet dating site. Then in the good old fashion, ended up being brainwashed by said girl and her family in the sticks.

You know.... A bit like, 'I support Man Utd because my dad supports Man Utd, even though neither of us have been to Manchester and we live in Ipswich'.

Another word for it.... 'sheeple'.

Edited November 2, 2013 by klubex99

[waza]

If everyone votes out of respect for the majority, it means the first person decides how everyone votes.

Maybe if everyone voted how they wanted, or particularly for an MP, how the people who voted for them wanted, then maybe the majority would actually vote differently.

Which is exactly what I was saying vis a vis the Friends of Newin and the abhisit coalition MP vote but you seem to think its different. I've got news for you there's a common demoninator - a reward of some sorts, usually money.

The friends of Newin group was recruited specifically to vote-buy in the North East, where the Democrats thought they could out-bid Thaksin for the rural vote.

They failed to take into consideration the underlying reasons for Thaksin's success in that region; policies the people believe benefit themselves and instead focused on financial incentive. The people saw through the sham though and recognised Newin as the corrupt gangster he was, and always has been.

Thaksin will take one for the team now by aggravating some of the red shirts, but once he's back he'll make moves to appease them and start to extract revenge on those of his enemies that received amnesty.

He's in a stronger position now than ever.

I would call it vote stealing. If it was vote buying, in theory the person who "donates" the votes would be compensated in some way for it. This is definitely not the case with the Friends of Newin and the Democrat collusion, unless you consider that once the votes have been cast the MP upon whom those votes were cast can do what they like with them, as does Whybother.

You mean like Thaksin has STOLEN the redshirt vote that got his proxy government in power and used it against them in the Amnesty case?

[Mudcrab]

All politicians in Thailand are from a "privileged class" .... people that steal from voters.

Thaksin is no different .... and anyone who doesn't understand that is a fool.

As someone else said he is only concerned with his own self interest first and foremost.

What I can't understand is why apparently western educated farangs (which are by far the minority) are so pro-Thaksin to the death almost and stand against anyone whom speak out against the scoundrel. (by far the vast majority).

Regardless of what level of intellect the majority farangs have, they are by far much more intelligent than the average Thai in the street, and way more well educated than the average Thai Thaksin supporter.

The only conclusion is that they came to Thailand and ended up making it their home after meeting an isaan girl in a bar and marrying her, or equally met a farm girl on an internet dating site. Then in the good old fashion, ended up being brainwashed by said girl and her family in the sticks.

You know.... A bit like, 'I support Man Utd because my dad supports Man Utd, even though neither of us have been to Manchester and we live in Ipswich'.

Another word for it.... 'sheeple'.

That's one conclusion. Easy to understand why so many western educated farangs (your words not mine) support Thaksin.... they can bask in the glory of the "I told you so and now I am one of them" even though they are irrelevant. They feel the need to have a cause. Like the skinheads of the 1970's...no real purpose but were able to walk talk and breathe.

The quote" the majority farangs have, they are by far much more intelligent than the average Thai in the street" I find deeply offensive and racist.

"The only conclusion is that they came to Thailand and ended up making it their home after meeting an Issan girl in a bar and marrying her".

Similarly this is offensive. My (beautiful (in my opinion) (Issan)) wife has a degree in Science and apart from that is well versed in politics nationally and internationally. Please refrain from making these broad brush comments from your barstool in Bangkok/Pattaya.

Edited November 2, 2013 by Mudcrab

[khunken]

I am only amused at the frequency at which semi educated foreigners (as indicated by the poor grammar/syntax etc of their posts) feel entitled to criticise poor rural Thais - who have never had the chances afforded to foreigners (even retired sex tourists ).Without that kind of insufferable arrogance I wouldn't bother to point out slovenly expressed posts.And in any case when will you people stop confusing intelligence with education.

Returning to my post you have typically failed (again) to understand the point.It's not a question of "spouting praise" for Thaksin.He followed populist policies later copied and enhanced by the Democrats but his significance was that he was the first PM to take the rural majority seriously.Hence his commanding rank as Thailand's most popular politician - due to gratitude and loyalty.It has nothing to do with his moral character or his motives.

You just can't resist biting and showing your arrogant contempt for anyone challenging your views. I'm sure I equal if not surpass your academic qualifications, but as the forum rules say, I do not make comments about peoples' preferred style of writing, grammar and expression. You think your a genius - carry on if it make you happy.Your continued rudeness and belittling of others simply demonstrates your social inadequacies and inability to respond with intelligence and logic to those with a different view. I agree strongly with the view that educations and intelligence are not the same. You demonstrate neither. Since retiring as a sex tourist is this how you fill your time ?

Returning to your post. Usual response - hot air, conjecture and nothing of substance. Very similar to most PTP ministers news statements.

You miss the point yet again.I never refer condescendingly to members' grammatical errors, typos (I make them myself - as you do) etc unless it is to underline the hypocrisy of some foreigner making snide comments about rural, "uneducated" or disadvantaged Thais.

Since my comments on this subject have been critical of PTP policy, I'm assuming you haven't been paying attention.

He didn't miss the point which is your hypocrisy. The post about the two little old ladies was not in any way belittling but your subsequent posts were down to your usual low arrogant standard.

Thaksin paid attention to the votes he could gain by using his & taxpayers' money to buy and reward them - not very well but enough to get their vote. There is no evidence that he has ever cared for little people beyond making use of them. The red shirt & innocent victims of his attempted coup gain money & not much else. Their perceived enemies gain as well as the already well rewarded red shirt leaders.

This is some distance from a done deal. A number of sizable hurdles to overcome - the Senate, the CC and continuing protests. A coup? Possibly but the liklihood of the country being enveloped in civil war makes any group think twice.

If the amnesty as it now stands becomes law, it is a terrible precedent for future lawlessness that can be easily forgiven. The poor state of Thailand's legal & justice system, which needs a major overhaul, has been set backwards instead.

[kimamey]

I love this "excitement" shown by the Thaksin haters about reds shirts being betrayed. It makes several people feel energised and quickly jump to conclusions. Don't worry, nothing will happen. The reds are not turning yellows. They will not turn against their elected leaders. Everything is ok, no worries. However, I do sympathize with the reds who have had loved ones shot during the 2010 crackdown. I fully understand their disappointment. Its must be hard to accept that Abhisit and Suthep will walk free, instead of rotting in prison. But reconciliation is the best that can happen to the country. So is the amnesty. Most realise that. An alternative would be to quickly judge and condemn all the trouble makers, including all the yellows who took the country hostage, the ones who seized airports, the responsible of the 90 deaths of 2010, etc..., and throw them in prison. But it would drag for years and years with very little results. So, lets be realistic. The wise thing to do is to reset everything. Most are ready for it. Ready for reconciliation. A minority prefers to keep going on with the ongoing destructive situation and refuse to put the country back on track. Many here love to read about "anger" and feel good when reading the article of a biased newspaper. But anger does not lead anywhere. Sent from my HTC One using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Why don't they have an amnesty that can be agreed on which just covers the minor players? The Dems seem to be OK with that. Abhisit and Suthep say they want to go to court so why all these problems. Two things spring to mind. Thaksin and the chance that the case against Abhisit and Suthep might not result in a guilty verdict. It does seem very weak from what I can see and if it were shown that the military were to blame then the government would be under pressure to do something about it.