How Much Are You Paying?

[randyotter]

I'm a randy gay otter and proud of the fact

[expatwannabe]

I give my bf 10,000 Baht/mo. It's not a lot, but he seems happy. I figure if we were married and living in California, he would be entitled to half of what I earned. So why shouldn't I help take care of him and his parents? Just because we can't marry? That would be absolutely unfair.

[Ijustwannateach]

Perhaps I'm being devastatingly severe with myself, but I refuse to date anyone seriously anymore who's not working and earning his own way. I wouldn't refuse to help him in a tight spot (as any friend would help another) and if we were together long enough (like 3 years) I would have to consider our engagement over and that he was part of the family now- but if their lives are not together enough to be mostly ok for that length of time, then I'm not interested in them- my own life is chaotic enough.

Does this reduce the number of serious candidates? You betcha, and how! Nothing shoos off the riffraff, the lazy, the outright mbs, and the golddiggers like not paying them! Harder to find guys who actually have jobs, too, cause they're not hanging out in dodgy bars waiting for tourists, they're working! Some of them only have 2-3 days off a month!

I think it does a disservice to myself to consider anything else, even in the name of filling the frequently empty bed with an illusory companion. It also does a disservice to the Thai partners, ultimately, since they become dependent on a potentially undependable source- while they're young and have energy to work and build some kind of life for themselves. So what's left for them if we leave once they're 30 and not so young/attractive anymore?

What kind of lifestyle does this give me? I get a lot of one-three night stands from guys who quietly drop me when they "get it" that I'm not a cash source. I get a lot of interest until I drop a poison pill lie (I like to say I earn only 20K to shoo off the golddiggers!) I get some f-buddies from the bored kept boy crowd whose boyfriends are all working overseas. And I keep looking, and looking. I'm hoping that the right sincere guy will be worth it when I find him.

"Steven"

[ProThaiExpat]

Ijustwanttoteach:

"Devistatingly severe" ? The more "requirements" or expectations you place on available pool of companions, the more difficult it is to find what you want. That goes without saying. The choice is yours.

Your post would apply to West Hollywood as well.

Whether our "requirements" are a specic level of intelligence, education, beauty, body form or size, background, occupation, car, condo, heart, personality, etc. they are just expectations which we establish and enforce as we see fit.

Your reqirement of a job or independent financial means is just one of many that one can impose. Some of us who have enough money for two, do not impose that requirement and find our pool of available companions far larger. Poorer countries have a larger pool of poor candidates, ie. Thailand, while richer countries have more productive, upwardly mobile and more wealthy workaholics in the pool that might be a negative for some of us who are not requiring that trait.

Its up to you.

[orchis]

I think both of the last two posters are right.

A good idea to share a little, but for many once you start giving there is no end in sight but total ruin. I had to explain my friend a few times that I wasnt going to buy him a more expensive cell than mine, or a car which I dont myself have.

[Ijustwannateach]

Expropat:

Not saying that I don't have the money, but don't want to use it for that. I might help someone with tuition costs if he were young enough to be a college student, but after that he should be trying to get a job. Otherwise, you're playing a very dangerous game in "supporting" someone- suppose you break up or wander off or lose interest a decade later? What's the young man done with the foundation for his working life? Maybe his improved foreign language skills will help him, but....

There are a lot of noodle vendors and motorcycle drivers out in Isaan with suspiciously good English, is all I'm saying.

I'd rather date someone for whom dating me is a PART of his life, rather than his whole program including his income. And yes, that is up to me.

"Steven"

[slapdashkitty]

Wow WANNA I think we are the same person living in quantum universes...but how come I get so much shit when I say I will only date guys who are gainfully employed? They are out there just hard to get, and I am with you- plenty of ONS...then they are smart enough to know I am not going to be making many withdrawals for them.

[surg]

Very interesting subject.

I will be retiring to BKK in Dec. 2004. Meet a young Ladyboy on my vacation there this summer, got an apartment and offered to pay all expenses and give him $10,000 Bhat per month for his hormone shots, cell phone, helping his family,etc. Paid the rent in advance and gave him 5 months advance too.

Unfortunately, he immediately started asking for more. I told him no and the e-mails have slowed. Looks like I'll have to live alone for a while until I get the hang of this.

Thanks for bringing up the subject.

[ChrisP]

Hi surg...

Ahhhh... yes. A little too generous up front, methinks....

Go to the FloatingLotus site and read the advice section there...

It will put things in perspective for you...

ChrisP

[Ijustwannateach]

Yeah, surg... that ladyboy must've been in hog heaven. It's a different game living here, and don't be surprised if most of your "tourist days" contacts look a bit different to you once you've lived here awhile.

"Steven"

[JemJem]

I have always liked the idea of sharing all costs EQUALLY (if possible, of course). Also, with my present boyfriend, I enjoy the idea of sharing expenses equally, even though his disposable income is quite higher than mine.

Of course I wouldn't mind being occasionally pampered by a nice gift (nothing fancy) but, overall, I love the idea of 'going Dutch' !

Regards,

Jem

[Ijustwannateach]

Why don't you go proportional? Add up both salaries- if his is 60% of the total and yours is 40%, then he pays 60% of the rent and you pay 40%, etc., etc.! That would be more equal considering the pay differences...

"Steven"

[PeaceBlondie]

Why don't you go proportional?  Add up both salaries- if his is 60% of the total and yours is 40%, then he pays 60% of the rent and you pay 40%, etc., etc.!  That would be more equal considering the pay differences...

"Steven"

Excellent advice, as usual, from Ijustwannateach. Proportional, you say - okay, let's see how that works. My Thai boyfriend makes less than 7,000 baht per month as a hotel manager. My total income is at least 10 times what my boyfriend earns. So our "proportionality" is something like 91%/9%.

Partly because he and his sisters are supporting their aged mother, I give him a salary that is no more than his fulltime work salary. He helps me in a hundred non-sexual ways. This system has worked for us, for over a year. He knows my teaching salary, but not my pension income or my banking assets. He accepts that he doesn't need to know. No ATM cards, no access to my funds. But his knowledge of Thailand and his domestic services would almost justify what I pay him. So, my real support to him for being my boyfriend comes to less than 3,000 per month. That's the least I can do for someone I love, who faithfully takes care of me like nobody else might.

[ProThaiExpat]

PeaceBlonde: Your experience mirrors mine, including the prior employment in a hotel. It is great you have got it right for you two.

One really wonders about the posters who post about not giving their "loved ones", if that term applies to the relationships they have, a baht to spend on a regular basis and deride those of us who choose to do so.l

My experience in the west has taught me that 'money" is probably the most difficult area for any couple to adjust to. Allowances for children are the standard in most affluent families, surely the wife gets something.l

I have tried various formulas, and am back to a monthly stipend of 4k baht for mostly tennis expenses, which if played everyday, equals that amount. I notice that occasionally tennis is avoided when something else is desired to be bought.

A three year retrospective suggests that my partner's attitude has evolved as far as money is concerned. As the sense of security has evolved, there is less "foolishness" and game playing. There is a lot of "bad" information about farangs out there so no wonder they enter a relationship with security issues. I think my Thai's biggest fear was that I will just "take off" and he will be left in a lurch. That has dissapated with time and there is a lot less insecurity based issues now.

Three visits with my daughter and her fiancee, two here and one in Australia, has done wonders in that direction. His integration into my family has helped immensely. I am not so circuspect with my assests as you are, but I always have been quite open about my finances throughout my life, so far not to my detriment.

I have had unexpected financial winfallls and losses while we have been together, and the reaction to those events on my net worth have not affected our relationshhip, other than to strengthen it. My net worth is really not a basis of our relationship, as time has proven, but I think the reliability of my pension does provide a sense of security to the relationship, as does my generosity in the long term.

I have found that treating "my Thai" as an equal in our relationship has had nothing but beneficial results, however, when there is an occasional minor "contest of wills" my dominance prevails as a result of my age, physical size and strength and financial superiority.

An example of how our financial relationship has matured is the 1 million emergency health fixed interest account which I made joint two years ago. I felt I had to hide the bank book as pressure from the family to borrow money and succuming to that pressure put that account in danger. Not for my Thai, but for the families occasional need to borrow. That is no longer the case and I feel a lot more secure that if I made the book available, there would be no danger as an appreciation for the concept of what is essential to our security is in place. My Thai has agreed to use that fund for everyday expenses if the need be and wait until the baht appreciated more before bringing more money into Thailand. He no longer expreses a feeling that that money is "his" security, but is "our" security and management of the money for the eventual benefit of "our" relationship is the objective.

Not uncommon in any relationship, the evolution of the members from an "I" and "mine" mind set to an "our" and "we" mindset. The more sharing one has with one's partner, the more the "we" concept evolves.

I have observed many "relationships" where the dominant one. who is paying, especially with "money boys" or "bar girls", including those in the west, where the paying member treats the receiving member as a "second class citizen". or "less than". That attitude, reflected in many posts of the "non-paying for it" guys, speaks volumes toward the quality of their relationships. I don't see how one can expect any form of quality relationship where there is an emphasis on "not sharing" and "not paying for it" and pride in the ability of enjoying someone else more because "it doesn't cost me anything".

I have had relationships in the past where the "proportional approach" was the basic understanding, primarily to giive the less financially well off member the feeling of "contribution" and "sharing" and it works as a rough rule of thumb, especially if the money is used for paying a given bill or two.

[Ijustwannateach]

Perhaps different folks are looking for different things. Personally, I wouldn't be satisfied to have disagreements or disputes with a loved one settled by issues such as my size/strength/income- it would be important to me that decisions should be made by us together and that power is shared. And it's important for me for my partner to have an independent income not because I'm stingy or can't afford it, but to avoid the following kinds of issues:

1. When the money runs out, so does the partner (i.e., the partner is ONLY there for the money).

2. When an unavoidable breakup occurs for whatever reason, the partner is not left spoiled/without a job/without a life.

3. The partner develops bad habits as a result of having no financial responsibility or regular schedule

4. The partner is unlikely to develop a "farang-collecting kept boy" lifestyle because he has other things to do.

I'm perfectly willing to:

1. pay for shared entertainment expenses

2. sponsor something educationally helpful

3. help out in an emergency of the partner himself, or of a direct family member (assuming we've been together quite some time)

4. pay for expensive shared vacations

but I've not had everything handed to me on a silver platter in life, and I don't think much of what I've seen happen to those who have.

The above probably applies more as a cautionary list for those dating the younger-ish set, too (in their 20s). 30somethings already know the score and probably already have a few job skills and years of work behind them.

"Steven"

[Skipton]

I’d second that IJWT I’ve worked pretty hard to fund myself through two University courses and was lucky enough to be based here, but I’ve still got those financial obligations to pay back the bank/loan company, although I have nearly finished that task now. Thankfully.

Even so it is sometimes difficult to explain my obligations to my BF, and personally probably as a result of my upbringing, I find talking about money a bit of a bore anyway. This could be as I myself came from a relatively poor family (by western standards) and did not have everything handed to me on a silver platter.

However now, compared to my bf I know I am financially better off but also know we both have exactly the same potential, its just I had the opportunity to develop it, so I am perfectly happy to help him in this scenario, (with respect to career development), should he ask which he hasn’t.

Anyway in a lot of ways we save money as I am not out on the town every weekend and we are similar age and size so our wardrobe has doubled.

I guess its basically finding out what you are comfortable with

[Ijustwannateach]

Wow, Skipton, you must be pretty fit to be able to wear Thai clothes! Lucky you!

As you're aware from another thread on this forum, I'm currently dating a "candidate" who's an art student. In *his* case, if I feel like making a donation, I may consider purchasing or commissioning some of his art (which I like).

"Steven"

[Ice Treasure]

Goodness don't you get all thingy about your "opportunity" "steven", in fact be careful "he" isn't taking "you" for a "ride".

I am quite thankful I am not a complete "loser".

My partner agrees. He can't work out what drugs you are using.

[Ijustwannateach]

^ I sense a vague hostility here but not sure what you're on about. Perhaps you've realized we're dating the same guy? Seriously, what's the deal ?

"Steven"

[ajarntrade]

If you have to PAY your BF to be your BF aren't you a CUSTOMER? Not REALLY a BF? And isn't he an "escort" or pseudo barboy/money boy? If you are paying your BF a onthly "fee" you should rethink the "relationship". Because in my opinion you really are a customer. When the money runs out... so will the "love" of your BF>

ajarntrade

[ProThaiExpat]

As one who tries to understand Thais, I am remined not to apply western starndards to them.

One poster said that one could hardly fault a very loving Thai, if a little nest feathering occurred at the same time.

Many cultures have a tradition of dowry. Who are we to say it is wrong.

Many custures allow a wealthy, old man to marry a young and beautiful bride and in the process enhance her wealth and that of her family. Who are we to say it is wrong.

How many struggling actresses marry wealthy old producers in the west?

After three years in a relationship with a Thai, I have found that I have done many things that I woulden't have done three years ago if asked then. My love relationship continues, but it has a financial as well as an emotional price. Both of which I am willing to give.,(Pay if you like)

ChrisP posted in another thread that he agreed that relaitonships are based on mutual need, and if financial need is one of them, satisfying that as well as other needs keeps the relationship together. It is only when your needs are not being satisfied, do you wander. To isolate a need i(financial) in a relationship to the exclusion of all others guarantees a lonely life.

If you don't want to financially assist your partner, don't, find a partner richer than you or at least one who can afford your lifestyle. Of course, you could lower your lifestyle to his and then he wouldn't need money from you.

Helping your love's family financially is a personal decision, more difficult if you come from no family or one that didn't help each other. Thais, in my view, do help their families, (no social security) and if you become one of the family, your expected to help as well, to the level of your ability. Don't like it, don't join the family. Don't want to put money in the alms box, don't go to church.

[orchis]

And who might we be in the comparison 'the struggling actresses and wealthy old producers in "the West"'?

That s not mutual need but mutual greed.

Trying to understand, in this case Thais, doesnt mean to take over their values or go native.

I think that s the beginning of the end.

Off course I can only write having been through it myself.

Wound licking time being over, I m really at a loss how to proceed next.

[Ijustwannateach]

Why, orchis? What's happened?

"Steven"

[ChrisP]

ProThaiExpat and I seem to have similar views on the subject, and he puts it very clearly into perspective in the post (2 up), so I'm not going to repeat it here.

I help my bf in small ways, financially. He doesn't WANT me to support him 100%. He wants to feel that he contributes to the relationship financially too... but he's not about to turn down an offered small improvement in his standard of living either! If I didn't help him financially, he would STILL be happy to be my bf. So I'm not "paying him to be my bf".

Someone mentioned that Thailand is still operating on what we in the West would describe as a "Victorian" value-system (and I mean Victorian British) value-system... I agree.

As back then, in LOS There are the "haves" and the "have-nots" (in a much more extreme manner than in the Western-world 21st century) and, it is culturally expected (as it was back then) that the haves help out the have-nots.

If you don't like that "cultural expectation".. then don't date Thai's... I know it's not univeral, but it's MUCH more prevalent than just the "Money-Boys".. and it's not going to go away... until the Thais generally achieve a much better standard of living.. or until Thaksin eradicates poverty in the next 4 years.. as he has just promised to do!!

ChrisP

[orchis]

Why, orchis?  What's happened?

"Steven"

Constant inflation of requests

+ Dwindling affection

= Diminishing Returns

> Reality Check

= Udon, we have a problem!

[Ijustwannateach]

I've heard of this pattern before. Sadly, it is often accompanied by a third party who offers more [usually financially] (at least temporarily). It is certainly a sign of insincerity. If he suddenly returns affection without explanation, it can mean third party deal didn't work out.

Not a good sign. Too bad- would recommend you start looking again.

Well, I don't want to be too cynical- it's possible you may just have relationship problems and the demands are covering other problems. But which is most likely?

Good luck either way.

"Steven"

[slapdashkitty]

Sorry but all of these stories in this thread sound frighteningly familiar? How is it that the same sad story is- much older guy with much younger man who in the end took him for a ride, completely duping the older guy with a tangled web of lies and deceit? Is nothing learned from all of this endless hours of posting? Night after night of the retelling of gay urban myths?

Sorry if you give a guy $$$ anywhere shy of a 2-3 year anniversary its plain and simple-mild prostitution, helping out is one thing, treating is nice too, that's what couples, do but here it only goes one way. Oh and spare me the tripe about the income difference....

Try this out on ur friends at home-"I met this great guy in a foreign country while on vacation who is 25 years younger than me, but he loves me, so I will pay his rent so he can wait for my return..." I can see the looks on their faces now.

Here one principle can only apply-Occam's Razor....the simplest explanations are usually correct all things being equal....get it together guys, stop dishing out, if there is any true affection he will stick around. If it smells fishy then chances are its a sardine...

[Ijustwannateach]

Actually, I have to play devil's advocate here- there are plenty of older man/younger woman scenarios in marriage (think of the "trophy wife") where the younger woman has NO career and no money of her own. Is that a form of prostitution? And, SDK, what about those who live here and provide support for their "spouses?"

(I'll say in advance that I do think one-career marriages ARE the softer, "respectable" end of the whole spectrum of what could be called "prostitution"- but by calling it that I'm not saying it's bad!)

"Steven"

[Skipton]

I'd add that not all of us have a huge age difference some of us (gasp) are dating same age/older guys and still have the same concerns and still find the info, conversations here relevant and of great general interest. I think with respect to this topic age is irrelevant. This issue seems pretty much universal if not in how much are you paying but how much do you spend? Perhaps a fact of life here?

[orchis]

'gay urban myths'

'25 yrs younger'

'on vacation'

'wait for my return'

'web of lies and deceit'

you can post your - theoretical thus ideal- views on this thread or simply not look at it if it bothers you, but dont invent facts s.a quoted above.