Boat captain abandons novice US divers in middle of the ocean in Thailand

[Kudel]

I do not question peoples certification or expertise on diving ,but clearly the emergency procedures of said diving school has flaws thats is clear in this case and a foreigner operating or managing a diving school in Thailand who has any logical sense of safety should consider making improvements before people get hurt or killed.Its called lessons learned .

Presumably you have read the tourists report and the dive shop owners report. In your expert opinion, what exactly are those flaws? Their boat broke down and so they sent another which picked up the divers 30 minutes after they surfaced. Perhaps you would like some more anti-slip tape on the replacement boats dive deck?

Youre answer says it al to me,i could write a whole list with flaws and pointers as a safety rep in the company i work for but its Thailand of course but if it was up to me ,insurance companys ,safety inspection companys ,etc.... Would have a field day and then some with an operation run like that and you would not be allowed to put on a pair of rollerskates for all i care.

And al these thailand dive operaters answering on this topic better watch their words because their doing more damage than good to their industry.

Edited November 17, 2013 by Kudel

[wilcopops]

I do not question peoples certification or expertise on diving ,but clearly the emergency procedures of said diving school has flaws thats is clear in this case and a foreigner operating or managing a diving school in Thailand who has any logical sense of safety should consider making improvements before people get hurt or killed.Its called lessons learned .

Presumably you have read the tourists report and the dive shop owners report. In your expert opinion, what exactly are those flaws? Their boat broke down and so they sent another which picked up the divers 30 minutes after they surfaced. Perhaps you would like some more anti-slip tape on the replacement boats dive deck?

Youre answer says it al to me,i could write a whole list with flaws and pointers as a safety rep in the company i work for but its Thailand of course but if it was up to me ,insurance companys ,safety inspection companys ,etc.... Would have a field day and then some with an operation run like that and you would not be allowed to put on a pair of rollerskates for all i care.

And al these thailand dive operaters answering on this topic better watch their words because their doing more damage than good to their industry.

The answer may be swifter than the Thai tourist industry suspects.

if Thailand gets a reputation for poor safety as regards to tourism, whether it be transport of activities, travel insurance companies will simply refuse to cover people wanting to participate in these actives and the numbers will simply dwindle away.

[wilcopops]

I do not question peoples certification or expertise on diving ,but clearly the emergency procedures of said diving school has flaws thats is clear in this case and a foreigner operating or managing a diving school in Thailand who has any logical sense of safety should consider making improvements before people get hurt or killed.Its called lessons learned .

Presumably you have read the tourists report and the dive shop owners report. In your expert opinion, what exactly are those flaws? Their boat broke down and so they sent another which picked up the divers 30 minutes after they surfaced. Perhaps you would like some more anti-slip tape on the replacement boats dive deck?

would have thought it is fairly obvious that the boat should need have left the scene until a replacement had arrived.

[BeforeTigers]

I'm not a diver.
But doesn't it seem like there should be some way for the boat to communicate with the divers? Some way to call them bakc in the event of trouble?
Is that a thing?

[Charlie Cheap]

Here's the real deal

Let's say for a moment that somebody had some issues with a tank or got injured down below, surfaced to get on the boat (a boat they paid form with their hard-earned money) only to find that there's no boat anywhere in sight. That's 30 minutes abandoned at sea.

All the "boat driver" had to do was send out a distress call informing the other boat which took 30 minutes (or more) to get there to bring a tow strap. Often do I see cars/motorbikes/trucks being towed by strap going down Beach Road, Second Road and Third Road.

There is a right thing to do and the wrong thing to do. In this case, leaving people abandoned under the water and surfaced for 30 minutes or more was the wrong thing to do.

The owner is negligent.

The "boat driver" is negligent.

The policy to abandon people at sea is negligent.

[zydeco]

This thread has convinced me of one thing.

Diving will be joining the list of things to avoid in Thailand. Just like taking trains to Chiang Mai, eating street food, pissing off samurai wielding taxi drivers, taking a mini-van anywhere, giving my wife the credit card, boarding buses that stop in the middle of busy streets, riding a motorcycle, renting a jet ski, taking a tuk tuk, or walking through Pattaya or Phuket with more than 1000 baht in my wallet.

[FolkGuitar]

When I did my Divemaster training, P.A.D.I. required 100 logged dives before you began the course.<snip>

Wow, that really is a long time ago. I do remember 100 dives to be certified, so you must have done this in the 70's.

No, later than that. PADI didn't change their requirements re the number of logged dives before starting the DM training until the mid-90's. At that point they made it a requirement that one had a certain (low) number of logged dives 'before completing' the training. When I took it, you had to have a minimum of 100 logged dives before 'entering' the course. I remember a couple of fellows we met on Sipadan who were cramming in as many dives each day as humanly possible just so they could begin the DM course in Malaysia the following month. On Sip, you can make great dives right at the drop-off 2 meters from the beach.

Something interesting in this thread... Unless I'm mistaken, it's serious divers saying that what happened was understandable , but non-divers saying it isn't. It reminds me of the teacher's union complaining about dentists and lawyers insisting upon how to teach the children... I especially find amusing the comments about how this is going to seriously affect Thai tourism... This sort of thing happens all over the world. The jet-ski scam is Thailand's signature rip-off, and ONLY Thailand's, yet hasn't slowed down jet-ski rentals much less Pattaya tourism, to say nothing of Thai tourism. Divers who keep their heads out of their butts don't dive without signalling devices. Period. Just like hikers and campers don't go into the woods without a compass, waterproof matches, and a bottle of water. Because these things happen all over the world.

[FolkGuitar]

........... People do not pay money to dive unsafely.

You're not a diver, are you... Let me tell you about a dive site in Palau, in the Western Caroline Islands, the last grouping in the Micronesian chain.

It's called "Peleliu Express." Palau is considered to be the World's Best Dive Venue, only equaled by the Red Sea. Palau is famous for its incredible diversity of marine life, while the Red Sea is famous for its coral. But I digress...

'Peleliu Express' is known world-wide for its ripping currents that can change direction in seconds. When the tide is changing, drifting Peleliu Express is like riding a jet coaster without being strapped in. The game divers play there is trying to see who can run the channel without going ass over teakettle, tumbling head over heels as the current speeds you along. Most dive operators won't let divers do Peleliu Express unless they've got a LOT of experience. The usual drill is to tie a rope from your mask strap to your BCD so when the current pulls your mask off when you are 80 feet down, the chances of losing it are less. But... just in case, everyone carries a spare mask in their BCD pocket. You don't want to have to abort the dive just because the current ripped off your mask...

Pay money to dive unsafely? Of course we do. Diving Palau costs a small fortune. Most people have to do it via a live-aboard dive boat. The sites tend to be too far from Koror, the capital city and only airport. Yes... people save for months just to dive unsafely in Palau.

[Maestro]

Removed a troll post and the reply to it.

[NomadJoe]

I do not question peoples certification or expertise on diving ,but clearly the emergency procedures of said diving school has flaws thats is clear in this case and a foreigner operating or managing a diving school in Thailand who has any logical sense of safety should consider making improvements before people get hurt or killed.Its called lessons learned .

Presumably you have read the tourists report and the dive shop owners report. In your expert opinion, what exactly are those flaws? Their boat broke down and so they sent another which picked up the divers 30 minutes after they surfaced. Perhaps you would like some more anti-slip tape on the replacement boats dive deck?

Youre answer says it al to me,i could write a whole list with flaws and pointers as a safety rep in the company i work for but its Thailand of course but if it was up to me ,insurance companys ,safety inspection companys ,etc.... Would have a field day and then some with an operation run like that and you would not be allowed to put on a pair of rollerskates for all i care.

And al these thailand dive operaters answering on this topic better watch their words because their doing more damage than good to their industry.

So you have absolutely nothing to say about improving emergency procedures. That's what I thought.

Diving in general, and diving in Thailand, have a very, very good track record. There is a reason for that.

Edited November 17, 2013 by NomadJoe

[GAZZPA]

I've just joined this forum to post a reply. I am the owner of this dive company this story is about.

Firstly I'd like to say that I can not believe that this have made international news. Please don't believe everything that you read in the american news or the daily mail for that matter.

I would like to explain myself and my company. We have a 100% safety record in our shop and pride ourselves in this.

So some of the events in the story did happen. Our boat did breakdown but at know point did our captain abandon anyone. It is not a common occurrence that our boat breaks down but he have strict set procedure in place so that if something happens all our customers are safe.

During the dive the captain was having battery problems on the boat. The customers in article insisted on seeing sharks so we went to that site. On that dive site there is no buoy lines to moor up on and we can not drop an anchor as it is a national marine park and could damage coral.

The captain is employed with us and is a good captain and he followed the procedures correctly. When he realised that he could not fix the boat he called back to our manager at the dive shop who organised another boat to collect them. We radioed another boat that we knew was in the area to go and collect the divers.

This did take a little bit time around 30 minutes in total.

The instructor who was with the customers has been diving in Thailand for over 10 years and knows the shop procedures. So knew they would be fine and was assuring the divers this.

There were shark in the water as the divers requested us to go to the shark site but the sharks in question are Black Tip Reef sharks. If you don't know your sharks they range from around 50cm-150cm and live on small reef fish. There has never been a known attack from these types of shark as they are quite timid creatures and scared of divers.

So at no time was anyone in danger of getting attacked by a shark!

When climbing onto the other boat that arrived the collect the divers unfortunately the lady in the video did slip. She hit her chin on the boat and we are very sorry about this. Our dive shop has medical insurance so we told the divers to go to the hospital to have a look at her chin and used the medical insurance through the dive shop to cover the costs.

As you can see this was not our most perfect day out diving but all my staff followed the correct procedure to ensure the safety of these divers.

We apologised to the customers and explained everything to them. They said they understood what had happen but at know point did they say they felt "abandoned at sea"

I am just guess when they got home they wanted there 5 minutes of fame. It is just unfortunate that there limelight brings such a bad name to the diving in thailand and to my shop.

Diving standard in thailand are very high compared with other part of the world and at our shop we stick to these high standard.

I can't actually believe that I have to reply and defend my shop and diving in Thailand to such a ridiculous article.

For me this is still bad, of course things can happen, boats can have engine troubles. However, it is the people that matter first, full stop. The fact still remains that the captain went off and left them there without informing them. It is ok for you to say that the instructor knew the procedures but so what,, the fact that they were left there still means they did not now what had happened.

Also, when it comes to the safety and well being of people you prioritise people first NOT the coral reef. I accept that the anchor may have caused some minor damage but what if one of the divers had a problem whilst diving and they needed to get them back to the boat? How is your procedure putting peoples safety first?

The captain should have secured the boat until the replacement arrived to ensure absolute safety not left them there without knowledge of what was going on.

Perhaps your post would be put to better use if you explained, apologised and told people what procedures you have now changed to make sure it doesn't happen again, rather then accusing the divers of wanting their 15 minutes of fame. You haven't really convinced me by saying it is your procedure to "leave me behind" under the circumstances you explained.

[Maestro]

It was good of the owner of the dive company to have presented his side of the story here: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/682032-boat-captain-abandons-novice-us-divers-in-middle-of-the-ocean-in-thailand/page-6?p=7045622#entry7045622

I know zilch about diving and about operating or driving a boat and hope for understanding by experts who may find my questions somewhat silly. The relevant snippets in the owner's post about the problem with the boat and about the rescue operation for the divers appear to be the following:

Boat problem

...Our boat did breakdown...

...During the dive the captain was having battery problems on the boat...

...On that dive site there is no buoy lines to moor up on and we can not drop an anchor as it is a national marine park and could damage coral...

Rescue operation

...at know point did our captain abandon anyone...

...When he realised that he could not fix the boat he called back to our manager at the dive shop who organised another boat to collect them. We radioed another boat that we knew was in the area to go and collect the divers. This did take a little bit time around 30 minutes in total...

My questions

1. Judging from the owner's post, is it safe to assume that the engine of the boat was still running and the driver drove it back to the harbour?
2. Could the problem with the battery have caused the engine to stop?
3. What danger would a stopped engine have presented to the boat and its driver if the boat had remained at the drive site?
4. From what has been written in this topic and the rock in the video of the surfaced drivers, is it possible to guess the location of the drive site and of the harbour from which the boat operated?
5. Would it have taken longer for another boat starting from the harbour to reach the drive site than the 30 minutes it took the mentioned other boat already out on the sea to reach the site?
6. Does the owner's comment about the absence of buoy lines and the prohibition to drop an anchor mean that if there were buoy lines there his instruction to boat drivers when having a problem with the boat would be to wait at the dive site, at least until a rescue boat arrives at the scene?

[Maestro]

...

Perhaps your post would be put to better use if you explained, apologised and told people what procedures you have now changed to make sure it doesn't happen again, rather then accusing the divers of wanting their 15 minutes of fame. You haven't really convinced me by saying it is your procedure to "leave me behind" under the circumstances you explained.

I agree with you. The dive company owner seems to lack any sense for damage control, any empathy for the involved divers, any understanding for the apprehensions and fear they may have had for their safety despite the assurances of the dive instructors.

[chris12345]

I really don't want to get into to forum gossip but I should clarify. Our dive boat broke down, the engine would not start. If the captain could have drove back to shore he would have picked up the dives first. He was floating in the sea until another boat came with a part to fix the battery.

That is the reason he called for another boat the collect the divers.

[Charlie Cheap]

I call shenanigans Chris 12345 !

[Charlie Cheap]

I really don't want to get into to forum gossip but I should clarify. Our dive boat broke down, the engine would not start. If the captain could have drove back to shore he would have picked up the dives first. He was floating in the sea until another boat came with a part to fix the battery.

That is the reason he called for another boat the collect the divers.

Do you really expect people to believe that load of malarkey?

All of that could've been done and kept everything close to the divers so they could be whisked away without incident.

Shenanigans!

[Maestro]

The boat's engine could not be started because of a battery problem and another boat was sent to fix it. This leads to new questions:

1. Where was the broken-down boat relative to the dive location when the divers surfaced?
2. Had another boat already picked up the divers when the boat with the replacement part to fix the battery of the original boat arrived?

[internationallawreview]

I've just joined this forum to post a reply. I am the owner of this dive company this story is about.

Firstly I'd like to say that I can not believe that this have made international news. Please don't believe everything that you read in the american news or the daily mail for that matter.

I would like to explain myself and my company. We have a 100% safety record in our shop and pride ourselves in this.

So some of the events in the story did happen. Our boat did breakdown but at know point did our captain abandon anyone. It is not a common occurrence that our boat breaks down but he have strict set procedure in place so that if something happens all our customers are safe.

During the dive the captain was having battery problems on the boat. The customers in article insisted on seeing sharks so we went to that site. On that dive site there is no buoy lines to moor up on and we can not drop an anchor as it is a national marine park and could damage coral.

The captain is employed with us and is a good captain and he followed the procedures correctly. When he realised that he could not fix the boat he called back to our manager at the dive shop who organised another boat to collect them. We radioed another boat that we knew was in the area to go and collect the divers.

This did take a little bit time around 30 minutes in total.

The instructor who was with the customers has been diving in Thailand for over 10 years and knows the shop procedures. So knew they would be fine and was assuring the divers this.

There were shark in the water as the divers requested us to go to the shark site but the sharks in question are Black Tip Reef sharks. If you don't know your sharks they range from around 50cm-150cm and live on small reef fish. There has never been a known attack from these types of shark as they are quite timid creatures and scared of divers.

So at no time was anyone in danger of getting attacked by a shark!

When climbing onto the other boat that arrived the collect the divers unfortunately the lady in the video did slip. She hit her chin on the boat and we are very sorry about this. Our dive shop has medical insurance so we told the divers to go to the hospital to have a look at her chin and used the medical insurance through the dive shop to cover the costs.

As you can see this was not our most perfect day out diving but all my staff followed the correct procedure to ensure the safety of these divers.

We apologised to the customers and explained everything to them. They said they understood what had happen but at know point did they say they felt "abandoned at sea"

I am just guess when they got home they wanted there 5 minutes of fame. It is just unfortunate that there limelight brings such a bad name to the diving in thailand and to my shop.

Diving standard in thailand are very high compared with other part of the world and at our shop we stick to these high standard.

I can't actually believe that I have to reply and defend my shop and diving in Thailand to such a ridiculous article.

Dear Chris,

Thank you for explaining yourself and setting the record straight:

1. Your company has "a 100% safety record" - please explain as the sentence is incomplete. Does this mean there was never an injury, err..excepting the lady who hit her chin... and you are "very sorry" about this?

2. "The captain is a good captain and follow the procedures" - which procedures ?

3."The customers in article insisted on seeing sharks so we went to that site."

4. Now we understand, the Captain had a boat with mechanical (battery?) problems and then he followed the procedures of ....taking orders from the customers .

5. You cannot believe "this have made international news" or that you "have to reply and defend...to such a ridiculous article".

Is there nothing ridiculous about what you wrote in your defense?

I reckon it will be interesting for TV readers who want to give a try at directing a dive boat captain - just sign up for a tour and Insist that the captain follow your orders at.... What company was that?

One wonders if we are all being taken for a dive here.

[Kudel]

I do not question peoples certification or expertise on diving ,but clearly the emergency procedures of said diving school has flaws thats is clear in this case and a foreigner operating or managing a diving school in Thailand who has any logical sense of safety should consider making improvements before people get hurt or killed.Its called lessons learned .

Presumably you have read the tourists report and the dive shop owners report. In your expert opinion, what exactly are those flaws? Their boat broke down and so they sent another which picked up the divers 30 minutes after they surfaced. Perhaps you would like some more anti-slip tape on the replacement boats dive deck?

Youre answer says it al to me,i could write a whole list with flaws and pointers as a safety rep in the company i work for but its Thailand of course but if it was up to me ,insurance companys ,safety inspection companys ,etc.... Would have a field day and then some with an operation run like that and you would not be allowed to put on a pair of rollerskates for all i care.

And al these thailand dive operaters answering on this topic better watch their words because their doing more damage than good to their industry.

So you have absolutely nothing to say about improving emergency procedures. That's what I thought.

Diving in general, and diving in Thailand, have a very, very good track record. There is a reason for that.

So you would be the first dive expert to report fully about cowboy operations right ? With al your certifications?

[kamahele]

I'm assuming the divers left their wallets on board the vessel......

[user82374298374]

He was floating in the sea until another boat came with a part to fix the battery.

So, you're saying that he did not in fact abandon the divers, but that he had no engine power and thus couldn't stay on-station.

If this is the case, then it sounds as if he did everything he could reasonably do.

[gordon from yasothon]

hahahaha classic!!!!!!!

[FolkGuitar]

The boat's engine could not be started because of a battery problem and another boat was sent to fix it. This leads to new questions:

1. Where was the broken-down boat relative to the dive location when the divers surfaced?
2. Had another boat already picked up the divers when the boat with the replacement part to fix the battery of the original boat arrived?

It's quite common on drift dives for divers to have to remain in the water until a boat arrives to pick them up. In some areas where the currents are very strong and people are diving from tender boats off of large live-aboards, you might have to wait 15-30 minutes floating, waiting for the tender boat to pick up your group or other individuals who have drifted to far. It's just not unusual!

The newspaper report makes it out to be a case of abandonment. It incites fear for the readers. Most experienced divers, knowing they are on a drift dive wouldn't be worried at all. Perhaps the two novices may have been, but should have been comforted by comments of the two dive Instructors with them in the water. What happened was not unusual, nor was it any more dangerous than the dive itself.

[Crushdepth]

There were shark in the water as the divers requested us to go to the shark site but the sharks in question are Black Tip Reef sharks. If you don't know your sharks they range from around 50cm-150cm and live on small reef fish. There has never been a known attack from these types of shark as they are quite timid creatures and scared of divers.

Side note - blacktips fall into the category "mostly harmless" and they do occasionally bite, although it is rare.

[IrishIvan]

The captain is technically at fault but the tour leader is responsible for checking off that all the guests are coming back on board. He then tells the captain they are good to go.

Sorry if its been mentioned before but 11 pages is too much even for me

[Bpuumike]

He was floating in the sea until another boat came with a part to fix the battery.

So, you're saying that he did not in fact abandon the divers, but that he had no engine power and thus couldn't stay on-station.

If this is the case, then it sounds as if he did everything he could reasonably do.

Especially as close as it was to a rocky shore, judging from the one photo, and unable to anchor.

[stegee]

why is he being referred to as a 'captain' he's a floating tuk-tuk driver-nothing more!!

[NomadJoe]

There were shark in the water as the divers requested us to go to the shark site but the sharks in question are Black Tip Reef sharks. If you don't know your sharks they range from around 50cm-150cm and live on small reef fish. There has never been a known attack from these types of shark as they are quite timid creatures and scared of divers.

Side note - blacktips fall into the category "mostly harmless" and they do occasionally bite, although it is rare.

Try extremely rare. Statistically there's a better chance of you getting struck by lightning on the way to or from the dive site. Perhaps if you are wading in water less than waist deep and chumming. There have been very few reports of attacks by black tip reefs. Few as in single digits, worldwide, from the beginning of recorded history. and that's if you are a wader and chumming/have dead fish and blood present. They are not dangerous to divers if there is no chumming involved, and in Thailand we do not chum.

http://www.jems.com/article/diver-struck-lightning-present

Edited November 18, 2013 by NomadJoe

[NomadJoe]

A few people have criticized the shop owner for stating that the boat could not anchor due to it being a marine park. The point was made that safety of people comes before damage to the coral reef. Of course that is correct, but since "Chris" is unlikely to address it, I would like to state that I believe Chris was referring to the initial arrival at the site, which, if is Turtle Wall as I suspect, I can confirm had no mooring lines and is in a "no anchor" zone, (several moorings have just been added around that area that wouldn't have been there a month or so ago). Normally the dive boat will move in near the wall over the dive site to drop the divers, then hang off slightly in deeper water until they surface then move in again to pick them up. Thus the issue of not anchoring is moot because at the time the captain discovered his problems, he was not in position to pick up the divers anyway. Anchoring wouldn't have made a difference to the divers.

[NomadJoe]

The boat's engine could not be started because of a battery problem and another boat was sent to fix it. This leads to new questions:

1. Where was the broken-down boat relative to the dive location when the divers surfaced?
2. Had another boat already picked up the divers when the boat with the replacement part to fix the battery of the original boat arrived?

It's quite common on drift dives for divers to have to remain in the water until a boat arrives to pick them up. In some areas where the currents are very strong and people are diving from tender boats off of large live-aboards, you might have to wait 15-30 minutes floating, waiting for the tender boat to pick up your group or other individuals who have drifted to far. It's just not unusual!

The newspaper report makes it out to be a case of abandonment. It incites fear for the readers. Most experienced divers, knowing they are on a drift dive wouldn't be worried at all. Perhaps the two novices may have been, but should have been comforted by comments of the two dive Instructors with them in the water. What happened was not unusual, nor was it any more dangerous than the dive itself.

Well put. And now that we have both sides of the story, all this speculation and ranting about abandonment and safety procedures is silly and moot. As I said before, it's a non-story.

Diving comes with risks, and we work hard to minimize those risks as much as possible, But those risks are compounded when in an environment such as this, a developing country without a culture of safety. This is why in most cases foreigners are in charge of operations. Of course there is always the possibility for improvement no matter what part of the world you are diving. No system is perfect.

IMO, the number one thing that can be done to improve water safety here is the enactment of legislation requiring vessels to stay away from diver down flags, and limit thier speed around swimmers and divers. At the moment there is none in Thailand. There would, of course, also need to be enforcement of those laws.