Learning meditation with no religious inclinations

[trd]

Ramana was not Nisargadatta's guru although he was certainly aware of him.

What balancing act is required? That is just from the relative perspective.

[trd]

Science has now proved that there is no shape, no color, no form. That all is a ceaselessly flowing, ambiguous quantum soup.

The "self' is the oneness of the uni-verse. Our 'minds' being finite, and in this universe, can never ever understand and know the infinite. Just like the eye cannot see itself or the mind know the mind. We have to traverse that frightening abyss of No-thing to be redeemed.

But this tricky little monkey ( mind) won't let go!!

The self is not the oneness of the universe. It has no attributes or connections with anything else. It merely knows itself. The universe and mind cannot know the infinite because they are objects bound by duality.

[Brickbat]

Everything is the universe. Like a drop of the ocean is the ocean. A microcosm within a Macrocosm.

Everything is just the 5 elements. Earth, wind, water, fire and ether.

This 'self' is a part of the whole. And as science has proved what you have said, there is nothing. We are 99.99999% empty space

Energy. Cannot be created nor destroyed . So the universe is infinite. In one form or another.

Mind is nothing but a thought. Called mind because it's bumper to bumper.

[trd]

The self cannot be part of the whole. The self is all there is. It is the whole. It cannot be part of anything. The universe is just an appearence which is an expression or reflection of the self, but at the same time is also self, both dual and non dual are ultimately self.

Mind is just a bundle of thoughts. The egoic mind can only exist when its attention is on something other than itself. When mind examines itself, thought disappears and mind dissolves into the self proving there was never was any mind. Just as a coil of rope appears to be a snake, but when examined closely it is found to be rope, where was the snake? It never existed.

Edited January 16, 2014 by trd

[Brickbat]

By "whole" , I mean this entire universe comprising of just the 5 elements. Which is everything. Nothing stands outside the universe.

I presume you mean the drop in the ocean , is the ocean . As Samuel Johnson said, " We are just one stupendous whole, whose body nature is , and god the soul."

Dividing parts into pieces of the whole is , I suppose, mind work.

I do not believe anything can examine itself. A thought cannot examine itself. Just like the eye cannot see itself.

To examine something, it has to be outside. We are all part of , and in this universe. Knowing reality is impossible.

I don't cherish any opinions, in the end. Including mine.

[trd]

I agree that an object cannot examine itself such as an eye loooking at itself. No object can because it has no sentience. But the subject can. The basic principle of the mind as the knower is beyond doubt. The knower as subject, not as a thought which is an object. It is the only thing that can be said to be real. The universe including the mind as thought and body are unreal because they are continiously changing and appear and disappear. Only awareness is unchanging and always present in the eternal now.

You can go through life and continue to accumulate more and more experiences. more and more ideas. For what? You will eventually grow old, get sick and die, and you will have achieved nothing. But if you turn the attention inwards to the source of thought, to the self, emptiness, pure consciousness, call it what you will, you will develop the discrimination of knowing that this awareness is completely separate from thought. It is the substratum of all that is. It has no beginning or end. It is truly who you are. Very simple, but very difficult to apply because for most people, external experiences and ideas hold more attraction than finding out who they really are.

You see, what you are doing is playing with ideas. There's nothing wrong with that at all. But it is never ending. Try the other way. Get rid of your ideas, all of them, and simply put your attention on the silence within and see what happens. Have no preconceptions or expectations, but just abide in that awareness. Let thoughts come without any judgement. Become practised at this and you will see in time that something happens..............

[Brickbat]

I agree. But don't you find it's an isolating experience. Because we are surrounded by people who are asleep. We loose our ambition, our non judgement makes us ' boring' , our needs become less, end up like a lizard on a rock. Hence my comment earlier about balance. Be the noumenal and the phenomenal. It's all creation. But we get pulled whichever way we give our attention too.

[trd]

I agree. But don't you find it's an isolating experience. Because we are surrounded by people who are asleep. We loose our ambition, our non judgement makes us ' boring' , our needs become less, end up like a lizard on a rock. Hence my comment earlier about balance. Be the noumenal and the phenomenal. It's all creation. But we get pulled whichever way we give our attention too.

It depends on your perspective. To be totally absorbed in the silence of the self would seem to suggest a kind of isolation. But to whom would this sense of isolation appear when the sense of personal identity dissolves in emptiness? However, as long as one inhabits a body, the external world of duality will continue to unfold. But here there is no sense of isolation either. Quite the contrary. Being established in the self is manifested as total presence as the relative unfolds within that silence. This makes every moment in the relative fresh, alive and interesting, including relationships with others. To be fully present but without attachment. This is freedom. This is my experience.

[Brickbat]

But with no mind , how would you know? What is there to experience , because mind is thought , as agreed. Mind has a predilection to enjoy the limitations of its own self, shrinking itself more and more into a very, very limited cocoon of it's prejudiced individuality, so that this tiny tot of a so called 'I' within ourself feels 'happy' within the tortuous cell of our own bodily encasement. All thought is a judgement. Going about our daily business without thought is dangerous. Time set aside to be present ( meditation) would slowly bring us to choice less awareness, a term coins by Krishnamurti.

[Brickbat]

What we require is intense training of our own mind , enabling us to think in terms of its vast potentiality. The all pervading mind is the source of all minds, as the ocean operates through all the droplets of water. If a wave assumes individuality, and tries to assert itself , like minds do, it's soon part of the ocean, like we go back into dust. Our prejudiced nature is so hard that it will not permit us to think even what is best for us.. A king in hell rather than a servant in heaven.

[trd]

Only when there is no mind can there be total knowledge. To be does not require a mind.

[trd]

What we require is intense training of our own mind , enabling us to think in terms of its vast potentiality. The all pervading mind is the source of all minds, as the ocean operates through all the droplets of water. If a wave assumes individuality, and tries to assert itself , like minds do, it's soon part of the ocean, like we go back into dust. Our prejudiced nature is so hard that it will not permit us to think even what is best for us.. A king in hell rather than a servant in heaven.

You think that your mind and body have something to do with this person you call "you". That is a mistake. There is no you. Investigate by looking for the source of mind and discover it is an illusion. This is not an intellectual or conceptual exercise.

[rockyysdt]

What we require is intense training of our own mind , enabling us to think in terms of its vast potentiality. The all pervading mind is the source of all minds, as the ocean operates through all the droplets of water. If a wave assumes individuality, and tries to assert itself , like minds do, it's soon part of the ocean, like we go back into dust. Our prejudiced nature is so hard that it will not permit us to think even what is best for us.. A king in hell rather than a servant in heaven.

You think that your mind and body have something to do with this person you call "you". That is a mistake. There is no you. Investigate by looking for the source of mind and discover it is an illusion. This is not an intellectual or conceptual exercise.

It is true that there may not be a thing called "you".

The thing many people mistakenly believe is "you", (mind/body) is definitely not "you", but how does one investigate whether there is not a higher you?

Does the illusory "you" have the tools or ability to see an "ultimate you"?

When one attempts to see, smell, touch, or describe the "ultimate you", isn't it like sending out a blind man to see?

Without personal experience isn't it possible that there is either an "ultimate you" or there's not?

If you ascribe to extinguishing attachment to the "illusory you", and attaining nirvana, what is it that does this?

Edited January 18, 2014 by rockyysdt

[trd]

You must use the mind to destroy the mind. It is a paradox and cannot be understood by mind.

[trd]

If the thought, "I have decided to go to the beach today instead of going shopping" appears in the mind, quite effortlessly and spontaneously as all thoughts do, then who is doing the thinking? You would say, "I am thinking. It is me. I have made this decision". But no one has ever decided what they are going to think next. Is there another entity prior to the thought who decides what that thought is going to be. And if that is the case, there must be another entity behind that one who decides that another entity is going to decide what to think and so on ad infinitum.

The mind needs to continually feed on experiences to survive, but if the mind is turned inwards to scrutinize itself, thought disappears. The mind cannot sustain itself without attaching to an object, whether that be a thought or object of sensory perception. Practice increases the power of discrimination so as to see the mind as being separate from awareness. The mind continues to function, but without the sense of doership. This can never be appreciated on an intellectual level, but I can understand your difficulty. It is the nature of the mind to look for complexity rather than simplicity.

[rockyysdt]

If the thought, "I have decided to go to the beach today instead of going shopping" appears in the mind, quite effortlessly and spontaneously as all thoughts do, then who is doing the thinking? You would say, "I am thinking. It is me. I have made this decision". But no one has ever decided what they are going to think next. Is there another entity prior to the thought who decides what that thought is going to be. And if that is the case, there must be another entity behind that one who decides that another entity is going to decide what to think and so on ad infinitum. The mind needs to continually feed on experiences to survive, but if the mind is turned inwards to scrutinize itself, thought disappears. The mind cannot sustain itself without attaching to an object, whether that be a thought or object of sensory perception. Practice increases the power of discrimination so as to see the mind as being separate from awareness. The mind continues to function, but without the sense of doership. This can never be appreciated on an intellectual level, but I can understand your difficulty. It is the nature of the mind to look for complexity rather than simplicity.

What you say I grasp.

That which we call mind is illusory.

The real issue is, when we become detached from mind, what are we left with?

Mind without doer still suggests something.

Many have said that Buddhism is not nihilist.

If there is not something left isn't that nihilism?

Whether it is individual or whether it is universal, awareness or not, If there is something left then you are describing Atman or Hinduism.

Edited January 18, 2014 by rockyysdt

[Brickbat]

Science with all it's arsenal has not yet been able to discover the command centre of a thought.

Thought is our world. Thought is like fire. It can warm you and cook your food. It can also burn your house down.

We just need to be masters of thought. Not its slave

[trd]

If the thought, "I have decided to go to the beach today instead of going shopping" appears in the mind, quite effortlessly and spontaneously as all thoughts do, then who is doing the thinking? You would say, "I am thinking. It is me. I have made this decision". But no one has ever decided what they are going to think next. Is there another entity prior to the thought who decides what that thought is going to be. And if that is the case, there must be another entity behind that one who decides that another entity is going to decide what to think and so on ad infinitum. The mind needs to continually feed on experiences to survive, but if the mind is turned inwards to scrutinize itself, thought disappears. The mind cannot sustain itself without attaching to an object, whether that be a thought or object of sensory perception. Practice increases the power of discrimination so as to see the mind as being separate from awareness. The mind continues to function, but without the sense of doership. This can never be appreciated on an intellectual level, but I can understand your difficulty. It is the nature of the mind to look for complexity rather than simplicity.

What you say I grasp.

That which we call mind is illusory.

The real issue is, when we become detached from mind, what are we left with?

Mind without doer still suggests something.

Many have said that Buddhism is not nihilist.

If there is not something left isn't that nihilism?

Whether it is individual or whether it is universal, awareness or not, If there is something left then you are describing Atman or Hinduism.

Very good question! Buddha was quite explicit in saying that his teachings were not nihilistic and the same is also true of advaita vedanta.

It is not surprising that this question is often raised because the idea of individuality dissolving into some kind of nothingness can be both liberating and frightening. In fact awakening is often preceeded by immense fear as happened to Ramana Maharshi which is well documented in his own words. At the age of 17 while staying in his uncle's house, he was suddenly overcome with an inexplicable fear of death. He confronted it by lying on the floor as if a corpse and asked himself, if I am dead then what am I. I am still here. This resulted in sudden self realisation when he realised the imperishable self.

This is the contradiction. The emptiness is actually full. Outside of space and time and full of bliss which is entirely independent of external circumstances created by mind and world.

[rockyysdt]

If the thought, "I have decided to go to the beach today instead of going shopping" appears in the mind, quite effortlessly and spontaneously as all thoughts do, then who is doing the thinking? You would say, "I am thinking. It is me. I have made this decision". But no one has ever decided what they are going to think next. Is there another entity prior to the thought who decides what that thought is going to be. And if that is the case, there must be another entity behind that one who decides that another entity is going to decide what to think and so on ad infinitum. The mind needs to continually feed on experiences to survive, but if the mind is turned inwards to scrutinize itself, thought disappears. The mind cannot sustain itself without attaching to an object, whether that be a thought or object of sensory perception. Practice increases the power of discrimination so as to see the mind as being separate from awareness. The mind continues to function, but without the sense of doership. This can never be appreciated on an intellectual level, but I can understand your difficulty. It is the nature of the mind to look for complexity rather than simplicity.

What you say I grasp.

That which we call mind is illusory.

The real issue is, when we become detached from mind, what are we left with?

Mind without doer still suggests something.

Many have said that Buddhism is not nihilist.

If there is not something left isn't that nihilism?

Whether it is individual or whether it is universal, awareness or not, If there is something left then you are describing Atman or Hinduism.

Very good question! Buddha was quite explicit in saying that his teachings were not nihilistic and the same is also true of advaita vedanta.

It is not surprising that this question is often raised because the idea of individuality dissolving into some kind of nothingness can be both liberating and frightening. In fact awakening is often preceeded by immense fear as happened to Ramana Maharshi which is well documented in his own words. At the age of 17 while staying in his uncle's house, he was suddenly overcome with an inexplicable fear of death. He confronted it by lying on the floor as if a corpse and asked himself, if I am dead then what am I. I am still here. This resulted in sudden self realisation when he realised the imperishable self.

This is the contradiction. The emptiness is actually full. Outside of space and time and full of bliss which is entirely independent of external circumstances created by mind and world.

Aren't you describing Atman?

This leads back to the title of this thread "meditation with no religious inclinations", and my daughters question as to why she should practice Buddhism.

If you are describing Atman, then what is the difference between Buddhism & Hinduism?

It's been said "don't take my word for it, but find out for yourself".

Here we are talking about devoting your whole life to a practice which is often said as not to produce fruit (realisation) until many lifetimes if at all (if it is false or misinterpreted).

Where as meditation without religious inclinations can improve ones life, here and now.

We don't need Buddhism to improve our lives with mindfulness & meditation which already existed before the Buddha.

Edited January 18, 2014 by rockyysdt

[trd]

Atman is the sanskrit word for the supreme self.

The truth has nothing to do with Buddhism, Hinduism or any other "ism". It transcends all of that. It's just that there is a historical context based on what various teachers have expressed as truth in different ways. At the fundamental level there is no difference between them. I prefer not to refer too much to specific doctrines, but to work with the immediate and direct experience that is common to everyone. If someone is interested in Buddhism, Hinduism, Christianity, whatever, that's OK. If they are not that's OK as well.

The most important thing is practice - not scripture.

[Brickbat]

The self affirmation of a little location of mental process, the tiny tot ' I' , the ego, is actually the cohesive force that holds it all together. Desire. Or none of us would even bother to be here.

The Cosmic mind is operating and dancing through the individual mind of us all. The solar orb conditions the eyes, the moon conditions our mind ( lunacy) and many other divine forces are conditioning the operations of the sense organs.

We do not exist independently. All on borrowed existence

Nothing is of our own.

And when the creditor withdraws support, our entire sustenance will collapse. In a second!

Reduced to particles of nature. The 5 elements

Nirvana is the freedom from individuality. Doubts are our traitors

[rockyysdt]

Atman is the sanskrit word for the supreme self. The truth has nothing to do with Buddhism, Hinduism or any other "ism". It transcends all of that. It's just that there is a historical context based on what various teachers have expressed as truth in different ways. At the fundamental level there is no difference between them. I prefer not to refer too much to specific doctrines, but to work with the immediate and direct experience that is common to everyone. If someone is interested in Buddhism, Hinduism, Christianity, whatever, that's OK. If they are not that's OK as well. The most important thing is practice - not scripture.

There's no doubt that practice of meditation is important.

Going back again to the title of the thread (no religious inclinations) meditation & mindfulness has been adopted by mainstream psychologists.

It allows us to diminish negative conditioning and grow positive conditioning.

It's a way of understanding and experiencing what motivates us and what causes us to behave in certain ways.

It's a way of taking control of our lives.

It's also a path to growth and change.

In terms of Buddhism, I'm told that without Dharma (specific doctrines), we do not know the correct way to practice.

Incorrect practice, I am told, will be tainted with greed, aversion, & delusion.

For example, there are those who reach and dwell in Piti & Sukha.

These are important milestones and a reward for effort, but attachment to these will stifle progress and render one into a form of addiction where there is no further growth.

Edited January 19, 2014 by rockyysdt

[rockyysdt]

Atman is the sanskrit word for the supreme self. The truth has nothing to do with Buddhism, Hinduism or any other "ism". It transcends all of that. It's just that there is a historical context based on what various teachers have expressed as truth in different ways. At the fundamental level there is no difference between them.

There is significant difference between Hinduism, Jainism, Brahmanism & Buddhism.

With the first three there is belief in Atman, Brahman, or Nirvana which are the supreme (free from destruction or death, what is not born can never be destroyed).

Kind of like a universal soul.

Hinduism, Jainism, Brahmanism suggest a reunification with the universal soul.

The is the highest order of egoism that there can be.

Attachment to ego is what we aim to let go.

Ajahn Buddhadasa taught that Nirvana is the final refuge we cling to when letting go of our mind/conditioned self which we are taught is a construct.

Apparently the final step is to let go of Nirvana as well for it is also ego.

Nirvana is our last self.

The ultimate self or Nirvana is said to be a "trace of smoke" which gets in the way.

Edited January 19, 2014 by rockyysdt

[rockyysdt]

The self affirmation of a little location of mental process, the tiny tot ' I' , the ego, is actually the cohesive force that holds it all together. Desire. Or none of us would even bother to be here.

The Cosmic mind is operating and dancing through the individual mind of us all. The solar orb conditions the eyes, the moon conditions our mind ( lunacy) and many other divine forces are conditioning the operations of the sense organs.

We do not exist independently. All on borrowed existence

Nothing is of our own.

And when the creditor withdraws support, our entire sustenance will collapse. In a second!

Reduced to particles of nature. The 5 elements

Nirvana is the freedom from individuality. Doubts are our traitors

From what I've been understanding, your tiny tot "I" is the only thing you know/are aware of.

Even if there is Awakening, it will not be you ("I") that awakens.

We ("I") are all destined to extinguish at the end of our mortal lives.

That's not to say practicing meditation is not a good thing.

Meditation & Mindfulness have to power to change our lives.

What I am saying is that those who practice for immortality (nirvana) are fooling themselves.

That which is hidden and awakens (awakening = cessation of suffering, voidness of self/not self) is not you ("I").

Meditation with no religious inclinations is good to a point, but there are sections of Dharma which are excellent practices which don't have religious inclinations.

Edited January 19, 2014 by rockyysdt

[trd]

So where do you go from here?

[Brickbat]

Go beyond ego, as is evident with Mr TRD. It got bruised. Thank you for showing us

[Brickbat]

Nothing to attain. Nowhere to go. No-where same words as Now-here.

The catch monkeys somewhere by using a tiny box and place some fruit in it. The monkeys manages to put his hand into the box, grabs the fruit, but it's clenched fist now is stuck in the box. And he stays like that until captured. Just letting go equates to freedom

Our "tiny tot 'I'" won't allow us to do this, ie let go. Why would this mischievous mind allow it's annihilation??

Ramana Maharshi said it like using a thorn to remove the thorn splinter, then throw both away.

[trd]

Indeed!

[Brickbat]

Apologies, Mr TRD. It was Mr Rockyysdt that got upset

[trd]

One cannot go far wrong by reading the words of Ramana.