1 dead, four people shot at Ramkhamhaeng University after clashes

[i claudius]

I know that this will not go down to well on here ,but to be honest its what most of us are thinking ,as long as the baht goes down and our own currency goes up and nobody has a go at us,we dont give a flying fart who runs the country.

many of you may shout and argue ,but in the end thats what we privatly think.

I beg to differ with your selfish, cynical thoughts. Anyone, no matter where they are from, with an ounce of compassion & humanity in their bones would be thinking quite differently. There are at least 4 or 5 deaths at this stage & all you think about is your own comfort. Unbelievable.

I do in fact have Thai familly ,for 20 years or more and we are quite close ,the Bangkok ones and the ones who live in the north ,they have different views ,but in the end they are familly and that is all that matters ,they certainly would not fight over it , when immegrants to Britain start to sound off ,the population are prone to tell them to sod off ,this is our country ,i feel the same here in Thailand ,i was not born here so it is their country and ONLY they should have a say in it , of course as a fairly decent human being i do not want anyone to be hurt ,but after being around the country and running a buisness here for 23 or so years (not all living here) i realize that nothing will change ,one faction threw out the last govt ,this faction want this lot out and when a new govt come in ,the merry go round will all kick off again in a few years ,well ive been here ,seen it all and got the t shirt ,leave them to it ,its not our buisness and i will repeat that the majority of us immegrants who are the silent majority feel what i originally said ,sorry if the truth hurts.

[Biscuit22]

RT@RichardBarrow: Confirmed that a body was found on the burned out bus in Ramkhamhaeng today (Pic @anuthee) pic.twitter.com/S0koeFDvOy

[wprime]

They are fighting for the end of government corruption and the Thaksin influence in Thai politics. Corruption and influence that put this rabble of a government in power in the first place. They would be welcomed to finish their term had they not been so damned aligned and loyal to Thaksin.

That's mighty decent from the minority opposition to consider allowing the majority to finish the elected term. If only they did exactly what the opposition wanted.

They can't seem to get it into their heads that Thaksin remains a highly respected person within the majority party. The likes of The Nation run countless stories how he's the bogeyman and the root of all evil, tirelessly prefixing him with the title 'fugituve' ad vomitum. That doesnt mean that the majority of the country sees it that way. And neither does the international press. They see Thaksin's conviction (in absentia) for something so incredibly minor that it's clear to see it was a politically motivated show trial, shortly after a military coup. What Thaksin was convicted for is the same sort of business dealing that Suthep did all day long during his entire career.

+1.

Most people don't realise the majority of Reds just want what each of us have taken for granted most of our lives - a fair and equal crack of the whip, equality and justice for all. The Yellows want Thailand how it used to be, and still is in a lot of circles; a caste type system, the rich stay rich and/or get richer, the poor know their place, stay in their place, low or no education, so they can continue as fodder for the factories, construction sites, and maids and servants for the elite. There is no way the Dems/Yellows would have ever put in the infrastructure there is now in the villages and towns in the North and NE. That is why this is turning into a class struggle - working class = Reds, elite = Yellows. Seems most people on this forum support snobbery and elitism, not seeing past the government is corrupt <deleted>. They are ALL corrupt, Dems no better than the rest, proven down the decades.

It's far more complex than that, I'm sure that's what they want, I'm sure that's what they think they're fighting for, but the reality is, the reds are fighting to make one family richer and more powerful, the anti-govt protestors are fighting to restore the power of another group of people (and make them richer). Both groups are primarily working class people helping elites fight their battles, the poor aren't going to get a fair go until they learn to represent themselves.

[HuaHinHarold]

At least the reds have shown how to be civil and have departed

Was this how they cordially thanked Bangkokians for hosting them before graciously bowing out?

Nice of them to try and greet and thank as many of the local populace as they could prior to their leaving on such short notice.

Red terrorists still at it.

Just rioting around random sois and anyone is a target, especially if you have a camera as can be demonstrated here.

This is protecting their government?

Edited December 1, 2013 by HuaHinHarold

[anon210]

I know that this will not go down to well on here ,but to be honest its what most of us are thinking ,as long as the baht goes down and our own currency goes up and nobody has a go at us,we dont give a flying fart who runs the country.

many of you may shout and argue ,but in the end thats what we privatly think.

I would suggest only those without Thai families are thinking that. But of course it is a consideration

Actually, I for one, don't give a damn of their internal power struggles. As long as we are given a break, thai stories need not concern us.

Fortunately, for now, their legendary xenophobia has not started to find a foreign scapegoat to this (would be difficult as all the agitators are pure thais!).

The country can go to hell, worst case scenario, we just get relocated. People who have thai families should have known better than stay in this country.

[Denim]

Reports on TV now saying 4 were murdered at University by the red shirts.

Just been watching the news on television. 5 confirmed deaths , 4 of whom are red shirts, from gunfire. No other FACTS yet but the usual mountain of conspiracy theories , blame and counter blame.

All this is so unnecessary . Had Suthep and the Democrats just bided their time Phua Thai would have hung themseves by their own ineptitude and failed policies. As it is, whatever they say, they just come across as being bad losers and pretty desperate ones at that. This will rebound on them to their detriment and regret

[chooka]

At least the reds have shown how to be civil and have departed

Was this how they cordially thanked Bangkokians for hosting them before graciously bowing out?

Nice of them to try and greet and thank as many of the local populace as they could prior to their leaving on such short notice.

Red terrorists still at it.

Just rioting around random sois and anyone is a target, especially if you have a camera as can be demonstrated here.

This is protecting their government?

The date is not on that video is it from years gone past?

[jdinasia]

Reports on TV now saying 4 were murdered at University by the red shirts.

Just been watching the news on television. 5 confirmed deaths , 4 of whom are red shirts, from gunfire. No other FACTS yet but the usual mountain of conspiracy theories , blame and counter blame.

All this is so unnecessary . Had Suthep and the Democrats just bided their time Phua Thai would have hung themseves by their own ineptitude and failed policies. As it is, whatever they say, they just come across as being bad losers and pretty desperate ones at that. This will rebound on them to their detriment and regret

4 were redshirts? ... ummmmmm

regarding your political analysis, ummmmm No.

[Sheryl]

Posts insulting other posters have been removed.

If you cannot deal maturely with the fact that some people opinions are different from your own please do not post.

[icare999]

"or will not bring it or any similar bill back"

Yingluck has, please pay attention!

Yingluck has already said that she does not control the MP's, that she is "government" ..... The bill (contrary to your assertion) is not dead. It is in an 180 day limbo. After those days pass, it can be voted into law by those very same MP's she claims she does not control. and all it takes is 50%+1 -- no oversight by any other group. With Thailand's history of late, would you trust PTP MP's not to vote on that bill? The only way it dies is for this government to call a snap election.

which is why they wont call an election and Taksin has instructed them to hang on for dear life since he knows this is probably his last chance. However he will continue until he dies to get venguence and try to install his sickening clan into permanent power in a one party state. My and many other's loathing for him means while he is around or his clan their will be no chance of peace and reconciliation. I can assure you my wife and many of her friends are no hiss elites and many of them totally hate and despise Taksin and all he stands for. My wife has a few friends who are Taksin supporters but then they are ones whose husbands are either part of this government as lower politicians or in positions were they have been paid handsomely and enjoy a share of spoils which which is not available for most Thais. Its sickening to see at first hand here in red Taksin land those who now have aquired land houses merc's and BMW's and everyone here is fully aware its fruits of corruption and favour given to those who cow toe to big brother. To be totally fair I suspect a number of those we know well who totally loathe and detest Taksin would be open to simular nice positions at trough and so jealousy probably plays some part in that loathing. And the really poor just get led like sheep to the slaughter not even understanding how they are being used and abused by their chosen hero. A number of them actually admire those who have suddenly found wealth and all trappings by being lackeys for Taksin and are grateful for a few crumbs. Obviously the sheep do not have a chance for a look in and all people we know are part of middle elite including all those greatly benefiting from this corruption.

Wke up and smell coffee some of you Taksin supporters here. You simply do not have a clue how it works and how Taksin has hijacked the cause of the poor. Such men are ver devious and clever but still evil and have same traits as all dictators.

[MickeyKnox82]

so 5 dead now in total.

I'm really interested in all of TV opinions, what u guys think what will happen the next days.

I'm not sure. Before I thought it will be quiet till 5th of December. But well, we saw today and last night it's not.

Now I am confused, if the red's are gone or not. Well....the stadium is empty, but I think and heard there are still many around.

I THINK tonight will be MORE trouble than yesterday....but for the next days, I've no ideas. What do you think?

[F430murci]

Taking a step back then, what DOES he want?

And do you agree with it?

he wants Thaksin out the picture for good, no more proxy governments no more clones no more corruption.

And it seems he wants to achieve that through limiting the one-man-one-vote concept. It's hard to see how that can be achieved otherwise, as he will keep on accusing 'everyone who doesn't agree with him' as being under the influence of Thaksin. Even if Thaksin committed suicide today he would likely just find another bogeyman or 'Thaksin regime remnants' to continue his crusade against. It really wouldn't end until he has a PAD favored form of government. (i.e. something other than a parliamentary democracy in the commonly understood definition.)

Tell me if Thaksin wasn't around would there have been the rice scam, the amnesty bill, the constitutional changes, or any of the catalysts of public discontent? If not for Thaksin would there have ever been the yellowshirts and redshirts?

Was there are rice bill or an amnesty bill in 2008 or is all this nothing more than power grabs with excuses used to rally those easily manipulated?

Edited December 1, 2013 by F430murci

[F430murci]

I thought I saw a press release about rubber bullets being fired at crowds. Was this false? Looking for updates as need to bring wife back home if this thing escalates too much more.

[metisdead]

I thought I saw a press release about rubber bullets being fired at crowds. Was this false? Looking for updates as need to bring wife back home if this thing escalates too much more.

If you would have looked in the BREAKING: Thailand Live Sunday topic you would have found a report about rubber bullets being fired.

[wolf5370]

Sad to see some here advocating a military coup as a solution or an all-out civil war between the police and army!

Don't know if they are advocating or predicting - they are completely different scenarios. Personally I am hoping for an announcement of a new year election, which will kill the beasts in most people's eyes - and back to some semblance of normality (except for the billboards and bloody pickups with full sets of speakers droning on for weeks that comes part-and-parcel).

[wolf5370]

I know that this will not go down to well on here ,but to be honest its what most of us are thinking ,as long as the baht goes down and our own currency goes up and nobody has a go at us,we dont give a flying fart who runs the country.

many of you may shout and argue ,but in the end thats what we privatly think.

I beg to differ with your selfish, cynical thoughts. Anyone, no matter where they are from, with an ounce of compassion & humanity in their bones would be thinking quite differently. There are at least 4 or 5 deaths at this stage & all you think about is your own comfort. Unbelievable.

I do in fact have Thai familly ,for 20 years or more and we are quite close ,the Bangkok ones and the ones who live in the north ,they have different views ,but in the end they are familly and that is all that matters ,they certainly would not fight over it , when immegrants to Britain start to sound off ,the population are prone to tell them to sod off ,this is our country ,i feel the same here in Thailand ,i was not born here so it is their country and ONLY they should have a say in it , of course as a fairly decent human being i do not want anyone to be hurt ,but after being around the country and running a buisness here for 23 or so years (not all living here) i realize that nothing will change ,one faction threw out the last govt ,this faction want this lot out and when a new govt come in ,the merry go round will all kick off again in a few years ,well ive been here ,seen it all and got the t shirt ,leave them to it ,its not our buisness and i will repeat that the majority of us immegrants who are the silent majority feel what i originally said ,sorry if the truth hurts.

When immigrants come to the UK they get citizenship and a vote - and only bigoted people say "sod off". When we come here it is almost always as NON immigrants (try and get an immigrant visa why don't you!!!) - and it is very difficult and an expensive gamble to go for citizenship - and then you have no right to vote initially. Crikey, we even have foreign MPs in parliament - Irish MPs (Shin Fein) in NI parliament.

[wolf5370]

They are fighting for the end of government corruption and the Thaksin influence in Thai politics. Corruption and influence that put this rabble of a government in power in the first place. They would be welcomed to finish their term had they not been so damned aligned and loyal to Thaksin.

That's mighty decent from the minority opposition to consider allowing the majority to finish the elected term. If only they did exactly what the opposition wanted.

They can't seem to get it into their heads that Thaksin remains a highly respected person within the majority party. The likes of The Nation run countless stories how he's the bogeyman and the root of all evil, tirelessly prefixing him with the title 'fugituve' ad vomitum. That doesnt mean that the majority of the country sees it that way. And neither does the international press. They see Thaksin's conviction (in absentia) for something so incredibly minor that it's clear to see it was a politically motivated show trial, shortly after a military coup. What Thaksin was convicted for is the same sort of business dealing that Suthep did all day long during his entire career.

+1.

Most people don't realise the majority of Reds just want what each of us have taken for granted most of our lives - a fair and equal crack of the whip, equality and justice for all. The Yellows want Thailand how it used to be, and still is in a lot of circles; a caste type system, the rich stay rich and/or get richer, the poor know their place, stay in their place, low or no education, so they can continue as fodder for the factories, construction sites, and maids and servants for the elite. There is no way the Dems/Yellows would have ever put in the infrastructure there is now in the villages and towns in the North and NE. That is why this is turning into a class struggle - working class = Reds, elite = Yellows. Seems most people on this forum support snobbery and elitism, not seeing past the government is corrupt <deleted>. They are ALL corrupt, Dems no better than the rest, proven down the decades.

It's far more complex than that, I'm sure that's what they want, I'm sure that's what they think they're fighting for, but the reality is, the reds are fighting to make one family richer and more powerful, the anti-govt protestors are fighting to restore the power of another group of people (and make them richer). Both groups are primarily working class people helping elites fight their battles, the poor aren't going to get a fair go until they learn to represent themselves.

...or until they can afford to represent themselves!

[WinnieTheKhwai]

They are fighting for the end of government corruption and the Thaksin influence in Thai politics. Corruption and influence that put this rabble of a government in power in the first place. They would be welcomed to finish their term had they not been so damned aligned and loyal to Thaksin.

That's mighty decent from the minority opposition to consider allowing the majority to finish the elected term. If only they did exactly what the opposition wanted.

They can't seem to get it into their heads that Thaksin remains a highly respected person within the majority party. The likes of The Nation run countless stories how he's the bogeyman and the root of all evil, tirelessly prefixing him with the title 'fugituve' ad vomitum. That doesnt mean that the majority of the country sees it that way. And neither does the international press. They see Thaksin's conviction (in absentia) for something so incredibly minor that it's clear to see it was a politically motivated show trial, shortly after a military coup. What Thaksin was convicted for is the same sort of business dealing that Suthep did all day long during his entire career.

+1.

Most people don't realise the majority of Reds just want what each of us have taken for granted most of our lives - a fair and equal crack of the whip, equality and justice for all. The Yellows want Thailand how it used to be, and still is in a lot of circles; a caste type system, the rich stay rich and/or get richer, the poor know their place, stay in their place, low or no education, so they can continue as fodder for the factories, construction sites, and maids and servants for the elite. There is no way the Dems/Yellows would have ever put in the infrastructure there is now in the villages and towns in the North and NE. That is why this is turning into a class struggle - working class = Reds, elite = Yellows. Seems most people on this forum support snobbery and elitism, not seeing past the government is corrupt <deleted>. They are ALL corrupt, Dems no better than the rest, proven down the decades.

I think that is because foreign residents also have a de-facto middle class lifestyle that is facilitated by a supply of cheap labor for all kinds of services. That's also why those same people opposed the minimum wage hike, which has been laughably low for far too long. It took a Red-leaning government to finally raise it, making good on their election promise.

Then those same middle class people (Thais and expats alike) call this minimum wage increase "a populist policy" (!), go on to dismiss the opinion of the poor as being uneducated or brainwashed, or bought, and even go on to say that the government isn't doing anything for the poor where it's plain to see the actions, which speak for themselves.

You can most definitely debate if certain 'populist' policies make the best economic sense (rice program, minimum wage, free basic healthcare) but these are very real achievements that virtually guarantee a TRT/PPP/PTP government to be voted back in.. ... unless.. the one-man-one-vote concept (a.k.a. democracy) is abandoned, which is what Suthep seems to be after. And what a certain type of foreign expat is after; they want to keep their neo-colonial lifestyle and cheap 'services' from the locals. The maid, the gardener, or the endless supply of affordable up-country girls in the entertainment venues. No different from the Thai middle classes, they share the same 'bubble of entitlement' that is based on exploitation and being blind to the aspirations of what they consider the lower classes.

Edited December 1, 2013 by WinnieTheKhwai

[Mampara]

The bottom line is that kids should stay out of politics, especially the "Freshmen". If they are really interested in changing the country then they should concentrate on studying and getting the necessary degree, not by joining a bunch of uneducated hooligans (Red or Yellow) bent in destroying the country and its economy.

Edited December 1, 2013 by metisdead
Bold font removed.

[BrooklynNY]

The vdo clip in comment# 368 (chooka)

I watched Thai news (I understand Thai) on a website updating protest incidents. This vdo clip was taken this Sunday morning of December 1, 2013 by an RU student who was hiding behind a bush in the RU area, after there was/were a sniper/s shooting students who were leaving a building where they were hiding from red shirts attack last night which the attack broke out from A-Chee-Wa students against red shirts during speeches given by RU students were held last night but the fight escalated before the speeches ended. The RU students thought it would be safer to hide inside the building but it turned out to be a sitting duck that they were surrounded by red shirts. The RU students therefore had to stay inside the building until morning.

They came out in the morning, figured that was safe but there was/were a sniper/s shooting at students. The RU students had to run back into the building for cover. Those students were stuck inside the building for many hours despite of calling for police assistance but there were no police went to rescue them but the police went to escort red shirts leaving the stadium instead and ignored the call for help from students and teachers who were in safe area. The students were rescued in afternoon by military.

The student who was taking this vdo clip had to keep a low profile in order to avoid red shirts who were walking outside the fence attack him. If red shirts saw any one recording them, they either attack or throw anything at them. The red shirts saw him recording them, they threw woods over the fence at him.

Edited December 1, 2013 by metisdead
Bold font removed.

[wolf5370]

Reports on TV now saying 4 were murdered at University by the red shirts.

Just been watching the news on television. 5 confirmed deaths , 4 of whom are red shirts, from gunfire. No other FACTS yet but the usual mountain of conspiracy theories , blame and counter blame.

All this is so unnecessary . Had Suthep and the Democrats just bided their time Phua Thai would have hung themseves by their own ineptitude and failed policies. As it is, whatever they say, they just come across as being bad losers and pretty desperate ones at that. This will rebound on them to their detriment and regret

Seems 4 were students (see below) - so not Red shirts - plus 2 Red shirts (including that soldier from last night) - plus body in the bus no one has yet identified (even gender I think). Plus 46 injuries, mostly from teargas (according to Erawan MC). If only they could have bided their time - however, with the 50%+1 rule there was little time and the forcing through without budgets of finance ministry or political debate of trillions in barely documented loans - what time was there. The stupidity of the this government is tantamount to criminal (actually it has been stated by the CC that it has been!) - I don't agree with the way Suthep has gone about this, but the blame is clearly on the Governments door - a cornered dog will bite - stupidity for greed and the benefit of one man not even officially part of the government. Brining in the Red shirts en masse was further stupidity - it was odds on it would cause escalation and violence - absolute madness - the Red leadership should be tried under provocation laws for each and every one of those deaths and injuries. This could all have gone so well if the Government had used proper parliamentary rules, not thrown the bottle out of the pram when it went against them (a policy practically no one wants to pass on either camp - amnesty) and weren't just so darned greedy. The chance this government could have had to make some real changes - wasted by greed and nepotism - the Red heartland should want to string up their own ministers for the way their passion has been used and abused and the lies they have been sold that came to naught.

[F430murci]

I thought I saw a press release about rubber bullets being fired at crowds. Was this false? Looking for updates as need to bring wife back home if this thing escalates too much more.

If you would have looked in the BREAKING: Thailand Live Sunday topic you would have found a report about rubber bullets being fired.

Thanks, I think. I would have thought rubber bullets fired at people would have been as important as topics on cutting Internet and head master's statement at YL's child's school. Silly me for looking for a topic on that subject or asking for an update, but thank you for pointing out BREAKING section.

Wife is in Phuket with her family from Russia. I was in Phuket in fall of 2008 when PAD ran around airport grounds, scared passengers and shut down airport. I just don't want to see her stuck in this type of situation and she has our two year old with her. My heart goes out for the Thai people right now, but selfishly I am very concerned about wife and two year old if this thing escalates or spreads.

[BrooklynNY]

The red shirts pulled out could be one of the government tactics. As far I am Thai, I know Thai mentality that most Thais would not give up easily unless there is a hidden agenda, especially Red shirts have notoriety of violence. On top of that, they are paid to follow orders.

Among Thai red shirts attended at the stadium, there were some non Thais (Neighboring country nationalities), they must have been recruited to be at the rally. I saw this on FB post photo of red shirts women showed their photo but the conversation language is not Thai. They were talking among people who were in the picture.

Edited December 1, 2013 by BrooklynNY

[wolf5370]

so 5 dead now in total.

I'm really interested in all of TV opinions, what u guys think what will happen the next days.

I'm not sure. Before I thought it will be quiet till 5th of December. But well, we saw today and last night it's not.

Now I am confused, if the red's are gone or not. Well....the stadium is empty, but I think and heard there are still many around.

I THINK tonight will be MORE trouble than yesterday....but for the next days, I've no ideas. What do you think?

5th will be quiet - that's pretty much a given. I think Suthep failed to achieve what was called for - if the called for strike goes nowhere I think there will be a second round after HM's birthday.

How nasty it will get will depend on provocateurs and the police/army response. The tear gas kept them at bay - but it was a high level (8) tear gas which is not usually used against civilians (it burns the skin rather than just tears the eyes and minor choking - been a lot of hospitalisations due to that today - Erawan reports 33 out of 46 injuries due to tear gas). Also rubber bullets were starting to be used (according to several reports - not seen any evidence, so maybe/maybe not? - but likely I'd say). I think if there is another hit more will come better prepared - more use of diggers, trucks and buses to remove razor wire and cement blocks with less danger from the gas. Once the barricades are down - it all depends on what orders have been given to the police and troops the other side and how carried away the demonstrators are by that point.

Strangely, if they find the PM has taken a flight out, then it may calm things - as it will be seen as a minor victory by Suthep's people. Not sure if that will stop the second wave though - I think not.

What's it they used to say during the war - early 40s? "It'll all be over by Christmas"

I think the best result for Suthep, though not what he wants, is an early new year election (or spring election with stone clad agreement from government to not re-raise the amnesty or senatorial bills).

I think the best result for Yingluck is that they all go home on the 4th and don't come back - although that's probably unlikely.

[jdinasia]

I have seen the list of the 4 students as well, it looks legit, but so did YL's ticket.

Suthep has met with the Generals and YL.-- says 2 days more of this. No violence from the protester side. Lots of condemnation on the govt, redshirts, and police in the Thai press for last night. Lots of condemnation of the protesters from the Press about being told what to report

[wolf5370]

I thought I saw a press release about rubber bullets being fired at crowds. Was this false? Looking for updates as need to bring wife back home if this thing escalates too much more.

There were reports of rubber bullets - but that has long since ceased as the crowds went away for the night. Use express ways where you can though - better safe than sorry.

[jdinasia]

I thought I saw a press release about rubber bullets being fired at crowds. Was this false? Looking for updates as need to bring wife back home if this thing escalates too much more.

There were reports of rubber bullets - but that has long since ceased as the crowds went away for the night. Use express ways where you can though - better safe than sorry.

I have not seen any evidence of rubber bullets actually being used despite that one report/tweet .... not enough injuries reported for them to have been used (is what I think) Lots of disinformation out there.

YL will be on the TV Pool soon (all channels)

[aaacorp]

so 5 dead now in total.

I'm really interested in all of TV opinions, what u guys think what will happen the next days.

I'm not sure. Before I thought it will be quiet till 5th of December. But well, we saw today and last night it's not.

Now I am confused, if the red's are gone or not. Well....the stadium is empty, but I think and heard there are still many around.

I THINK tonight will be MORE trouble than yesterday....but for the next days, I've no ideas. What do you think?

5th will be quiet - that's pretty much a given. I think Suthep failed to achieve what was called for - if the called for strike goes nowhere I think there will be a second round after HM's birthday.

How nasty it will get will depend on provocateurs and the police/army response. The tear gas kept them at bay - but it was a high level (8) tear gas which is not usually used against civilians (it burns the skin rather than just tears the eyes and minor choking - been a lot of hospitalisations due to that today - Erawan reports 33 out of 46 injuries due to tear gas). Also rubber bullets were starting to be used (according to several reports - not seen any evidence, so maybe/maybe not? - but likely I'd say). I think if there is another hit more will come better prepared - more use of diggers, trucks and buses to remove razor wire and cement blocks with less danger from the gas. Once the barricades are down - it all depends on what orders have been given to the police and troops the other side and how carried away the demonstrators are by that point.

Strangely, if they find the PM has taken a flight out, then it may calm things - as it will be seen as a minor victory by Suthep's people. Not sure if that will stop the second wave though - I think not.

What's it they used to say during the war - early 40s? "It'll all be over by Christmas"

I think the best result for Suthep, though not what he wants, is an early new year election (or spring election with stone clad agreement from government to not re-raise the amnesty or senatorial bills).

I think the best result for Yingluck is that they all go home on the 4th and don't come back - although that's probably unlikely.

About the strike : if tomorrow my accountant is not at the office at 9 am and goes on strike (she already told me last week she wont be there for 2 days to go rally and i agreed to let her go) she will be fired..she has been warned yesterday and today.

And no i m not a pro thaksin, neither i pay her minimum wage (30k a month)

Edited December 1, 2013 by aaacorp

[wolf5370]

They are fighting for the end of government corruption and the Thaksin influence in Thai politics. Corruption and influence that put this rabble of a government in power in the first place. They would be welcomed to finish their term had they not been so damned aligned and loyal to Thaksin.

That's mighty decent from the minority opposition to consider allowing the majority to finish the elected term. If only they did exactly what the opposition wanted.

They can't seem to get it into their heads that Thaksin remains a highly respected person within the majority party. The likes of The Nation run countless stories how he's the bogeyman and the root of all evil, tirelessly prefixing him with the title 'fugituve' ad vomitum. That doesnt mean that the majority of the country sees it that way. And neither does the international press. They see Thaksin's conviction (in absentia) for something so incredibly minor that it's clear to see it was a politically motivated show trial, shortly after a military coup. What Thaksin was convicted for is the same sort of business dealing that Suthep did all day long during his entire career.

+1.

Most people don't realise the majority of Reds just want what each of us have taken for granted most of our lives - a fair and equal crack of the whip, equality and justice for all. The Yellows want Thailand how it used to be, and still is in a lot of circles; a caste type system, the rich stay rich and/or get richer, the poor know their place, stay in their place, low or no education, so they can continue as fodder for the factories, construction sites, and maids and servants for the elite. There is no way the Dems/Yellows would have ever put in the infrastructure there is now in the villages and towns in the North and NE. That is why this is turning into a class struggle - working class = Reds, elite = Yellows. Seems most people on this forum support snobbery and elitism, not seeing past the government is corrupt <deleted>. They are ALL corrupt, Dems no better than the rest, proven down the decades.

I think that is because foreign residents also have a de-facto middle class lifestyle that is facilitated by a supply of cheap labor for all kinds of services. That's also why those same people opposed the minimum wage hike, which has been laughably low for far too long. It took a Red-leaning government to finally raise it, making good on their election promise.

Then those same middle class people (Thais and expats alike) call this minimum wage increase "a populist policy" (!), go on to dismiss the opinion of the poor as being uneducated or brainwashed, or bought, and even go on to say that the government isn't doing anything for the poor where it's plain to see the actions, which speak for themselves.

You can most definitely debate if certain 'populist' policies make the best economic sense (rice program, minimum wage, free basic healthcare) but these are very real achievements that virtually guarantee a TRT/PPP/PTP government to be voted back in.. ... unless.. the one-man-one-vote concept (a.k.a. democracy) is abandoned, which is what Suthep seems to be after. And what a certain type of foreign expat is after; they want to keep their neo-colonial lifestyle and cheap 'services' from the locals. The maid, the gardener, or the endless supply of affordable up-country girls in the entertainment venues. No different from the Thai middle classes, they share the same 'bubble of entitlement' that is based on exploitation and being blind to the aspirations of what they consider the lower classes.

Some of what you say is true - the problem was that the minimum wage was too low for too long (and we can't exactly blame 2 years of Dems for that one!). The worry people had was the same worry that the economist professors from several universities and many news columnists pointed out that raising it 100% so fast would just cause more harm than good to those very poor - this was borne out as any truthful person in the country will tell you, by two rounds of inflation (actually price fixed raises) : Firstly, the announcement, and again on the delivery. It was also promised to be an immediate fix - but that was so only for Bangkok and then phased for the poorer areas (work that one out if you can). It also, as expected, caused job losses and reduced hiring levels; and caused ripple up pay rises that hurt business (mostly SMEs). Many in the north still receive less than the minimum wage as they are not taxed and it is easy to get away with it. All in all, with the exception of very few items, everything is relatively more expensive now than before the election (note: I said relatively, that is against earnings).

The PTP also did away with free healthcare brought in by the Dems and returned to the old failed 30 baht system. Thaksin's government deserve the kudos for even looking at this and starting something - albeit badly managed and funded - but you can hardly laud the present government for it - they made it more expensive!

Your idea that we all are living like colonial generals surrounded by coolies waving peacock feathers is so far from reality its positively funny - you don't think perhaps its our (extended)Thai families we are concerned with rather than how much more we have to pay the scullery maid!

What really guarantees the re-election of TRT....PTP is two things: 1. A superb propaganda machine, and 2. lack of any real opposition.

PTP without the greedy Thaksin's lackeys would be a great party for change for the lower classes - as it is, it has failed the people that continue to vote for them. Imagine what good 2.2 tirillion baht could do for education, infrastructure that is useful like double track rail and canal dredging /re-instigation, health care, free medical for young and old and child birth, HiV/Aids prevention and treatment, drug rehab program, orphanages, mental health care, flood defences (canals would already be helping this!), and so on - high speed train slower and more expensive than a plane, anyone?

This is why I can not understand why the real Reds (not paid thugs - I mean the passionate ones up here in Red heartland that care about the policies promised and the idea that they are cared about) still stick up for the Thaksin cronies, when they should be yelling for a leadership shuffle and get some of those passionate and educated and/or smart people that actually do exist in the mix to the top slots - lets get some real changes that really help the people and not elite pockets (difference between Red and Yellow leadership? None - the future is Orange!)

Maybe it really is time for the reformation of the Farmers Union Party (sans the Marxist drivel). Maybe an election early in the year will give us just that!

//Edit: Typos plus a clarification.

Edited December 1, 2013 by wolf5370

[MK1]

so 5 dead now in total.

I'm really interested in all of TV opinions, what u guys think what will happen the next days.

I'm not sure. Before I thought it will be quiet till 5th of December. But well, we saw today and last night it's not.

Now I am confused, if the red's are gone or not. Well....the stadium is empty, but I think and heard there are still many around.

I THINK tonight will be MORE trouble than yesterday....but for the next days, I've no ideas. What do you think?

5th will be quiet - that's pretty much a given. I think Suthep failed to achieve what was called for - if the called for strike goes nowhere I think there will be a second round after HM's birthday.

How nasty it will get will depend on provocateurs and the police/army response. The tear gas kept them at bay - but it was a high level (8) tear gas which is not usually used against civilians (it burns the skin rather than just tears the eyes and minor choking - been a lot of hospitalisations due to that today - Erawan reports 33 out of 46 injuries due to tear gas). Also rubber bullets were starting to be used (according to several reports - not seen any evidence, so maybe/maybe not? - but likely I'd say). I think if there is another hit more will come better prepared - more use of diggers, trucks and buses to remove razor wire and cement blocks with less danger from the gas. Once the barricades are down - it all depends on what orders have been given to the police and troops the other side and how carried away the demonstrators are by that point.

Strangely, if they find the PM has taken a flight out, then it may calm things - as it will be seen as a minor victory by Suthep's people. Not sure if that will stop the second wave though - I think not.

What's it they used to say during the war - early 40s? "It'll all be over by Christmas"

I think the best result for Suthep, though not what he wants, is an early new year election (or spring election with stone clad agreement from government to not re-raise the amnesty or senatorial bills).

I think the best result for Yingluck is that they all go home on the 4th and don't come back - although that's probably unlikely.

About the strike : if tomorrow my accountant is not at the office at 9 am and goes on strike (she already told me last week she wont be there for 2 days to go rally and i agreed to let her go) she will be fired..she has been warned yesterday and today.

And no i m not a pro thaksin, neither i pay her minimum wage (30k a month)

I presume your accountant works for private firm and not the government so there would be no need to be concerned.