I've Got a Degree in Rocket Science!

Scott · December 17, 2013

An off-topic post has been deleted.

fifthcolumn · December 17, 2013

Gee, let me guess. You are a "qualified" teacher in your home country. Well, go back there and teach.

So, someone with BA in Ed credentialled in Kenya - good to go

Masters in History from Oxford - sorry, no cigar

The salary is B30k genius. Only stupid people come over here to work. Stupider still, those trying to build a career in "TEFL" in their early years. Thailand has to be the worst place to teach in East Asia for money and career, hands down. These jobs should be left for those on Thailand, have current family links to Thailand. Unforunately, still loads of lonely 55-65s with more time than money on their hands.

A BA/S and a teaching course should imo get you a job teaching conversational English at 35k.

bundoi · January 2, 2014

I have a group of Mathayom 5 and 6 students who I am helping to prepare for university ... by following the logic of some of the posters here maybe I should say to my students "don't bother, it's just a piece of paper".

A teacher is not just a teacher, s/he's also an ambassador for education.

inutil · January 2, 2014

I think you missed the point. The piece of paper is CRUCIAL to getting you the gig. Its just the relevance of said piece of paper to said gig thats in question. Get the right credential and it matters not a jot what your skills or motivations are (actually it does, but im really just mirroring the melodrama for the fun). But it still doesnt matter all that much. As ive frequently lamented, the only reason a dosser like me has a job in esl is because a) im MEGA cute for my age. Though that trains reaching the end of its line in the next 6 or 7 years; im stupidly energetic (and in turn this ones reaching its natural blaggit lifespan as well). If people ever wanted to make a difference to their education systems that have less of this! (me) and bring in more second language english learners with teaching qualifications in systems that actually WORK (scandinavian in particular - image + technique + motivation + desire). Until then though, im coasting entirely on the back of a iece of paper that shouldnt in any way allow me to be an authority in an entirely unrelated subject. One, by the way, i failed to get a grade c for at the first try for my GCSEs (C for english lit and D for english language - got an A years later when i was doing my a-levels, but still...)

If i could teach philosophy mind you (in particular political philosophy), im pretty sure id be a mix of INCREDIBLE and annoyingly over-complicated... :?

...Im not for everyone to be honest

Edited January 2, 2014 by inutil

bundoi · January 3, 2014

555 LOL I like your style.

My implied point was that when you are helping students prepare for university, your own experience of university entrance, university life, graduate options etc etc are the "gig".

CraigSchuler · January 3, 2014

Then they should be paid the same wage.

bundoi · January 3, 2014

Agreed, they should be paid the same wage as Thai teachers here.

CraigSchuler · January 3, 2014

Except most Farangs would pass on living like a Thai......Next.....

bundoi · January 3, 2014

Actually I live 99% of my time with Thais, I rarely see farangs. My Thai friends have a substantially higher income than most of the farangs boast or whine about here and a much higher standard of living. Most farangs here are trapped in a bubble due to their linguistic limitations, limited life experience, prejudices, inflexibility, and and and... and I am delighted that the Thai authorities have raised the bar, and are continuing to raise the bar, on the quality of westerners living and working here. I know that a small percentage of farangs agree with me, but they're not usually the type to spend too much time on TV.

Edited January 3, 2014 by bundoi

puchooay · January 3, 2014

As this is a forum for teachers, I assume you mean "except most Farangs would pass on living like a Thai .....teacher????

So....job for life, great state pension (about 90 percent of final salary every month until death), full health insurance cover for self and family, annual pay rises(after about 15 years service the salary can be well over the figures that Farang receive), no need to go through the rigmorole of contracts, visas and work permits, cheap loans to the sum that one can build a new and very nice house, and generally the guarantee of life long stability. Not to mention the possibility of making investments and puchasing property

Poll time..... Who, as a Farang, would pass that up for what they have now?

Scott · January 3, 2014

Continued combative, argumentative and nonsensical posts will result in suspension.

Foreign teachers are not Thai nationals and equating the two is not the topic of this thread.

Stay on topic.

Yooyung · January 3, 2014

^{I Think that a degree is a reasonable standard to be expected to work legally as a teacher in Thailand. I worked over here for quite a while without one, but knew that time was running out for me. I went back home and studied for a degree. It wasn't easy for me, I hadn't studied that much in years, but the thought of coming back here with my family was enough to keep me motivated. Is it a degree that is related to teaching English is Thailand? No, but then that was never the issue for me. the issue was for me to get an accredited degree from a western country. I have a TEFL cert, but to be honest I think I would jump at the chance of further relevant study....but its not really available here.}

^{The TCT tests sound like they may be getting better, but I am still worried about them. I would love to study something that is actually useful, something that is specific to Thailand. I would happily give up some time on the weekends to study. I think some kind of mixed online/face to face on weekends program could really work. Again though, its not available. I could do a Masters in TESOL from the Uni that I did my Bachelors from, but it would cost me hundreds of thousands of Baht. Being as my wage isn't likely to get much higher than it already is working in Thai schools...I think I will pass on that.}

^{Its all very well for people to want native speakers to have education degrees, but the salaries don't and probably never will be enough to make the extra time/financial commitment worth it. I am happy with say, 45,000 -50,000 per month Mon to Fri and some extra on weekends. Its not too hard for me at the moment to get my salary up to 60,000 + and still have time to enjoy life. This salary is ok, but if they want me to get the extra certificate in education on top of my degree they cannot expect me to work for that....I could go home and get very, very good money. I don't want to go home. People teaching at international schools get more than me, that's ok, they have higher qualifications than i do, they can teach in the West. Thailand needs to sort this mess out. There has to be a middle ground for native speakers that are NOT working and NEVER intend on working at international schools. We cant all be earning 100,000 per month working Monday to Friday at St McMuffins international school. I am a well educated man that is willing to improve myself IF what I am doing is going to further my cause in Thailand and not put me on the road to financial ruin.}

^{Yes, a degree is a good standard to set. That does not mean that there are teachers out there with no degree that cant do a good job. At the end of the day though, it looks like they will have to bite the bullet like I did, and make moves towards getting one. I have a degree and STILL have other hoops to jump through.....its not getting any easier folks..}

^{Good luck to everyone trying to find a way out of this maze......}

Edited January 11, 2014 by Scott
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NeverSure · January 3, 2014

With your permission I'll repeat myself from another thread (I think.) I have two female Thai friends who are teachers in rural Isaan. Both of them are the English teachers and neither can speak English, at least not well at all. They teach in Thai.

I visited both schools and was offered a job at both with no work permit - just teach.

In one of them I was asked to teach English for a couple of days. My Thai friend who is the regular English teacher sat in on the classes to help with the kids and also because she was curious.

I found it easy and fun and would have continued had I been going to stay around. Here's what I did since I had no lesson plan and no teaching experience except to gifted piano students of all ages.

I walked to the front of the room with no idea what to do. Then I got an idea and grabbed a handful of colored pencils. I wrote something like "yellow pencil" on the chalkboard. The students knew what that meant but had no idea how to say it. So then we began to say yellow over and over. I stayed animated and walked all around the room pointing at everything I saw that was yellow, and getting the kids to say yellow with me. I also held up various colored pencils one at a time and said pencil, and had them repeat it. Then we went back to yellow pencil.

Then I switched to something like a red pencil and wrote red pencil on the board. Then staying animated I walked around the room and found everything I could that was red and had the kids repeat the word red with me.

At the end of two days the kids could say the colors. They could also say pencil and also pen because I introduced some pens.

I just used what was handy, invented an idea, went into animated repetition, and at the end of the two or three days, the kids had learned to say things they never had heard before. They could already read and write the colors, but now they could say all of the main colors. They could also say pen and pencil.

I kept their attention too. I believe that if I had a year or two with them, that they would be speaking English because they already could read and write fairly well, and had some grammar too. I would still focus on speaking first simply because that's how we all learned English from the bottom up, and because they might never again have an NES.

Cheers.

inutil · January 3, 2014

No maze at all.

If you have a degree in any subject at all, you have a job somewhere in asia.

If you have a degree in any subject at all, and a teaching certificate (120 hour tefl in class, base), you have a job in any of the big three.

If you have a degree in any subject at all, and a teaching certificate, and experience, you have a job

If you have a degree in any subject at all, and a teaching certificate, and experience, and intermediate language skill, you have a career in that country.

If you have a degree in any subject at all, and a teaching certificate, and any remote interest in teaching as a career, you have a career teaching in asia.

If you have a degree in any subject at all, and a certificate, and a remote interest in this as a career and the ability to pull your finger out yoru ass and occasionally retrain/update your skills, you have a decent career.

If you have QTS, or an MA in ed/linguistics/english and are willing to publish a few papers, youre pretty much sorted for life. Actual teachers and lecturers wont ever find themselves struggling for work. And if they are its because theyre being a bit too picky or hedging their options. But they can choose to be picky.

Far from a maze, it looks rather straightforward and simple. More like a freeway if you ask me. Everyone knows what needs to be done, they just dont bother, or would rather chance their luck. Dont think im not with them flying the slacker flag. Im their bloody mascot! Its just that this isnt actually, um, well, rocket science.

Things that get in the way and turn it into a maze:

1. Being from a country without 13 years of native English schooling.

2. Being old. Proper old. Not just middle aged and hiding it.

3. Being disabled.

4. Being fat.

5. Being ugly.

6. Being dirty.

7. Being smelly.

8. Being a drunk.

9. Turning up to an interview in shorts and a vest.

10. Having no ambition, interest, or love for teaching, but absoutely craving the escape of an easy life by the beach (and phoning it in).

11. Taking sick days.

12. Not cleaning your classroom.

13. Not interacting with the other teachers.

14. Boring your students.

15. Being disrespectful to any of the higher members of staff.

16. Acting in a manner that isnt befitting the dignity of the position.

17. Just all round hating the job and finding nothing enjoyable in it but not having the class and social grace to bottle that hatred whilst youre on the clock. Save it for warcraft.

18. Thinking "I know my coteachers think im a douchebag, but the kids love me so i must be doing my job right"

19. Not learning the language.

20. Scowlin around the corridors, outside the classroom, ignoring the kids outside of the classroom. Actually i think i can summarise this: Never smiling at school. SMILE <deleted>!!! More often than not, your job depends on it.

Oh slackers of the world, (and some who arent slackers but have the roadblocks up in their way by social stupidity, homophobia, racism, and whatever else), if you fit any of those criteria, look at some of the others you can do on the list and make an extra effort to pull that off. If youre a bit of a dick to the staff, pop back after new year with some goodies for everyone and theyll suddenly think that you were just shy all along and that it was THEIR fault you had such a weird relationship. If youre a bit phone it in, spend your lunchtime just wandering around mucking about with the first and second graders on the basketball or soccer pitch. You dont have to change the world, you just need to balance stuff. If youre a bit of a loner, learn a bit of the language and BE SEEN struggling with it a bit, watch the advice roll in from all the teachers who dont teach english. And if your school doesnt like you learning thai for the students, learn some cultural cornerstone phrases so that when you give your present to the director from the new year holidays, you can say it in impeccable thai with all the right bowing and have him or her instantly think youre a GENIUS employee who shows the right level of respect. Now youre in his eye as a wrothy son or daughter to take out for lunch and get to know a bit.

If you are fat, make a bit of an effort in your clothes and style. Look a bit more energetic and spry and dress sharper. Just because youre overweight doesnt mean you have to go to all the effort to lose weight and take care of yourself, it just means you have to own it a bit more. Do something to make yourself more employable. Get a qualification, learn a skill, shock them with a new style or technique or just extra attentiveness.

The great thing about being a screw up as a teacher is that theres LOADS you can work on and improve. You can pick and choose what tiny wins you need. Have at it. Its not hard.

NeverSure · January 3, 2014

"Things that get in the way and turn it into a maze:

2. Being old. Proper old. Not just middle aged and hiding it."

I'm 67 and was offered two jobs in just two schools just by visiting and smiling, and by being an NES which they couldn't find to work in their villages. I didn't even ask for the jobs. Yes I'm clean cut, well dressed, friendly, and I'm even lucky enough to have all of my hair.

But I know for a fact that I could find a teaching job in rural Isaan at my age if I wanted it and was willing to go without a work permit.

gazwa · January 3, 2014

The minimum level of qualification to teach non native speakers in most English speaking countries is TEFL.

inutil · January 3, 2014

On the other point on being paid Thai wages.

I am absolutely embarrassed in thailand to receive the wages i get. But genuinely, its not because im being paid too high, its because thai teachers are being paid faaaaar too low. The thai teachers i met were no worse (dispositionally/vocationally) than any teacher i met in japan or korea. Well, some of them. Theres some im left genuinely shaking my head at (teachers who sleep in class should be ashamed, and the teachers who just dont turn up for classes for the lord knows whatever reason and has no one covering their class is mind boggling). But the English teachers at my school in Trat worked very hard to bring these rural kids up properly. They set up classes after school and would spend their free time going over and over and over extra grammar points because, just like any teacher in any country in the world who actually cared about their job, they were 100% there to improve the life chances and opportunities of their students. This is why i personally think its often a bit bullshit when you hear attacks on thai teachers. Theyre no worse than their job than anywhere else. Sure, the older dudes struggle a bit, but thats the same everywhere. They learned grammar translation, they were taught to teach grammar translation, so they teach grammar translation. And theyre too old now to care about the switch to fluency and communicative English because the university and high school entrance exams are still pretty much built around grammar translation.

They cant speak a word of English, but they know their shit when it comes to testing and the material on that test.

Orrrr... theres the poor bugger thats been told theyre now an English teacher this year because the school has too many students and they need another teacher, but cant afford/find one. Usually a pe teacher because those guys do nothing anyways! I dunno if thats common in thailand, but it happened surprisingly often in Japan (and was one of my 4 coteachers in korea) so i assume it happens there as well.

But the younger english teachers i came across were passionate, diligent, and really really really wanted to drum into their students heads what made them passionate about learning English. Only the text book is an ABORTION that kills stone dead aptitude, inspiration, and passion. So much shit to get through, so few students who can follow it legitimately, and so much reading... so very much reading.

Kinda like one of my posts... brrrm boom!

SO yeah, that i get paid more than them is a scandal. That they get paid so little though is the bigger scandal. I never mind teaching in japan and korea because even a first year teacher made more than me in japan when you added in their twice yearly bonus, and im fairly sure that after their second year a korean teacher starts earning far more. So all things being equal, with eight years experience, and purely doing the job because someone was paying me to bring to life all the cute activities i found on englipedia for each class once a week, i figured i was being paid appropriately. But if im not changing lives in Thailand for the pay im getting (even at 30k) i felt a bit more aware of how much of a fraud i was. Buy two young english teachers <deleted> from my salary and train them up from scratch teaching communicative english! Better yet, pay your teachers a proper wage.

inutil · January 3, 2014

If you beat the system of prejudices and prejudgements... fair play! That was the point after all

bundoi · January 11, 2014

Well great news today, especially on National Children's Day. Two of my students have just won scholarships to uni; one to a top uni, the other to a tech uni. One's a builder's daughter, one's a farmer's son. I'd like to take some credit, but they are so smart they'd have done it with just about any paleface.

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