A Tale Of Woe

[tutsiwarrior]

your comments please...

a couple of years ago the oldest niece (who had not lived with her parents for a long time, just with the grandmother with the sponsorship of my wife) 13 y.o. found herself looking after family kids that were staying with the grandmother (one toddler, one about 5 and one about 9 y.o.) She had a problem with the arrangement as she had no spare time to herself.

Well...she fcuked up in stages...first stayed out all night, then didn't come home on the weekend then split all together. As a falang from California I could see where the progression was heading and said as much to the wife..."I can see where this is heading...if we don't address it there will be catastrophe'. As she is the boss in Thailand she just said 'let me handle this tutsi...'' The last incident she ripped off her grandmother for 8k baht as she fled...a heinous crime within any family...

the wife tracked her down and returned her to the fold in reduced emotional circumstances...I couldn't believe how she could bring such dishonour on the family (such that it is...they are poor farmers)

she is now 15 y.o. and has been married off...looks to me like the family don't want anything to do with her no more. The prospect of early pregnancy appears to be the solution to her 'wild ways' when all she was doin' was to express frustration that her friends, all adolescents, were enjoying themselves and she never went anywhere...

the niece ain't that pretty nor ain't that smart so not sure what would have resulted in the best of worlds...

but...a bit harsh...what you guys got?

[khall64au]

It sounds like "Cinderella" was forced to marry the toad... who may or may not turn out to be her prince. Have heard of a similar story and the young lady in question ran away and turned into a lying, cheating serial gold digger.... targeting "rich" farang men!

Are you able to offer the niece any emotional support while she adapts to her new lot in life?

[britmaveric]

Tutsi - not surprised, but thats rather harsh. Poor gal just lashing out for wanting to be a kid and now she's cast off. (forced marriage will likely lead to disaster IMHO)

[tutsiwarrior]

It sounds like "Cinderella" was forced to marry the toad... who may or may not turn out to be her prince. Have heard of a similar story and the young lady in question ran away and turned into a lying, cheating serial gold digger.... targeting "rich" farang men!

Are you able to offer the niece any emotional support while she adapts to her new lot in life?

she ain't no cinderella...she is to be kept under surveilliance until a baby is produced. The family presumes that she will stay put when that happens...like I say she is no beauty or brain surgeon.

She knows that I have supported her but I am falang with a different view. I may support the family to a good degree in the usual way but I am not allowed to interfere.

I envision disaster...her running off alone with the husband left with the baby that he doesn't want. Could be that grandma will have another tenant soon...

[BKK90210]

Thai style of bringing up girls is usually by putting up the tight fence of “traditional values” around them, especially in rural upcountry areas. Kids nowaday are very hip and modern and free in thinking spirits, while your wife or grandma may still see things in the old fashion ways.

It's normal for teenagers to want to feel independent. But it's not typical for them to act out in dangerous extremes. If she is creating self-destructive situations, you can't afford not to intervene! Teenagers are known to explore new things, but they don't make severe switches in personality just out of the blue. If she’s making drastic behavioral changes, there's a reason. It's a cause-and-effect situation. As whoever was raising her, grandma or your wife, it's their responsibility to identify what's behind the change. It may be a recent event, or it may be something deep-rooted, likes…growing up without her parents as her role model or confidante, or by looking Back there might be some Negative events that happened while growing up, may be as far back as the toddler years, that help to shape her personalities. By the time the toddler become teenager, she may have been living with the resulting pain for most of her lives. Young children may feel pain and anger, but they lack the ability to act on those emotions. Teenagers, however, are able to act on these feelings with more lasting — and harmful — consequences.

My advice is…..You should help them to identify the real root of the problem…..but you should not be dealing directly with the child, hence your words will not carry any authorities to her whatsoever. The key here is for your wife/grandma to recreating a trusting relationship with her again, one without judgment, or she won't share with you what's going on. You can’t undo the past but you can help them giving her the right advices and maybe she'll make a better choice/decision in the future.

[Khutan]

Can I assume she is following the behaviour of her mother as you made no mention of her ?

[tutsiwarrior]

the girl is the oldest daughter of the oldest brother-in-law...he remarried and his new wife didn't want her around so the wife stepped in as she is wont to do to take control of the situation. Happens a lot in poor rural Thai families. The father is around a lot though. The girl's mother is also remarried and doesn't see her often.

The way I see it the girl simply figured that no one loved her...I could see the symptoms, low self esteem and etc. and I knew something terrible was about to happen. Alas, the wife is absolute ruler when we are in Thailand and chose not to listen.

The girl later worked hard to make amends...paid back everything she stole from her gran...she even bught me a bottle of vodka as she knew how terribly disappointed I was even though I tried to conceal it and to be positive. Last year when we were in Bahrain I paid for her to come out with the step daughter as a way of showing my concern/affection...the trip did manage to bring a smile to her face.

Anyway I had the wife buy about 20k worth of household furnishings when she was married. We all expect an announcement that baby's on the way soon.

[bina]

bkk!! give me a break!!! root of problems???

she's fifteen and has to be the mother of three kids probably does all the manual laundry, food morning noon and night and cleaning... i have a friend whose 15 yr old has been doing that for 3 years already while living with grandma, her mom remarried, had more kids, went to work with pa in bangkok and the daughter is raising the family w/an old grandma as the adult in the house.... all udon thani village folk... my friend is in america as migrant labourer and sending money to his daughter (the father and mother are divorced) and the grandma takes the money, the duaghter doesnt get any for shcool uniform, books, treats or whatever....role model??? lets see your kid do what some of these kids do....

wouldnt u run away????....

a sad fact of life in small poor villages>

role model? the parents are probably migrant laboureres or in bangkok working, or found new life... as is the case in many of these families.... an other friend's wife is off to taiwant o work, leaving two infants in care of grandma and 14 yr old girl cousin... father is in israel working as labourer...

tutsi... yep.. she will probably have the baby, and then eventually go off to work in the big city, and seek richer pasturers leaving baby with other family members....fourth generation rootless...

as u well know, not much u can do unless u and wife take her in to your family and even then, its probably too late...

[tutsiwarrior]

bkk!! give me a break!!! root of problems???

she's fifteen and has to be the mother of three kids probably does all the manual laundry, food morning noon and night and cleaning... i have a friend whose 15 yr old has been doing that for 3 years already while living with grandma, her mom remarried, had more kids, went to work with pa in bangkok and the daughter is raising the family w/an old grandma as the adult in the house.... all udon thani village folk... my friend is in america as migrant labourer and sending money to his daughter (the father and mother are divorced) and the grandma takes the money, the duaghter doesnt get any for shcool uniform, books, treats or whatever....role model??? lets see your kid do what some of these kids do....

wouldnt u run away????....

a sad fact of life in small poor villages>

role model? the parents are probably migrant laboureres or in bangkok working, or found new life... as is the case in many of these families.... an other friend's wife is off to taiwant o work, leaving two infants in care of grandma and 14 yr old girl cousin... father is in israel working as labourer...

tutsi... yep.. she will probably have the baby, and then eventually go off to work in the big city, and seek richer pasturers leaving baby with other family members....fourth generation rootless...

as u well know, not much u can do unless u and wife take her in to your family and even then, its probably too late...

cheers bina...you are obviously familiar with these arrangements by way of your connection with the Thai guys that work with you...

yeah...if the niece decides on heading down to the smoke then, if there is a baby, it will end up either at grandma's or with the husbands family. The stepdaughter is now in pole position to take over the household chores at grandma's (she's 12y.o.)...I certainly don't want a repeat scenario...

[khall64au]

bkk!! give me a break!!! root of problems???

she's fifteen and has to be the mother of three kids probably does all the manual laundry, food morning noon and night and cleaning... i have a friend whose 15 yr old has been doing that for 3 years already while living with grandma, her mom remarried, had more kids, went to work with pa in bangkok and the daughter is raising the family w/an old grandma as the adult in the house.... all udon thani village folk... my friend is in america as migrant labourer and sending money to his daughter (the father and mother are divorced) and the grandma takes the money, the duaghter doesnt get any for shcool uniform, books, treats or whatever....role model??? lets see your kid do what some of these kids do....

wouldnt u run away????....

a sad fact of life in small poor villages>

role model? the parents are probably migrant laboureres or in bangkok working, or found new life... as is the case in many of these families.... an other friend's wife is off to taiwant o work, leaving two infants in care of grandma and 14 yr old girl cousin... father is in israel working as labourer...

tutsi... yep.. she will probably have the baby, and then eventually go off to work in the big city, and seek richer pasturers leaving baby with other family members....fourth generation rootless...

as u well know, not much u can do unless u and wife take her in to your family and even then, its probably too late...

cheers bina...you are obviously familiar with these arrangements by way of your connection with the Thai guys that work with you...

yeah...if the niece decides on heading down to the smoke then, if there is a baby, it will end up either at grandma's or with the husbands family. The stepdaughter is now in pole position to take over the household chores at grandma's (she's 12y.o.)...I certainly don't want a repeat scenario...

This scenario is exactly what I meant by "Cinderella"... poor kid! Just a slave to the family, no wonder she rebelled. I'm sure she dreamed of a knight on a white stallion riding in to sweep her off her feet and save her from a life of drudgery..... thus my short anecdote of the 'gold-digger' girl.

Surely, Tutsi, you can talk to your wife about helping to make a 'brighter' future for her?

[tutsiwarrior]

bkk!! give me a break!!! root of problems???

she's fifteen and has to be the mother of three kids probably does all the manual laundry, food morning noon and night and cleaning... i have a friend whose 15 yr old has been doing that for 3 years already while living with grandma, her mom remarried, had more kids, went to work with pa in bangkok and the daughter is raising the family w/an old grandma as the adult in the house.... all udon thani village folk... my friend is in america as migrant labourer and sending money to his daughter (the father and mother are divorced) and the grandma takes the money, the duaghter doesnt get any for shcool uniform, books, treats or whatever....role model??? lets see your kid do what some of these kids do....

wouldnt u run away????....

a sad fact of life in small poor villages>

role model? the parents are probably migrant laboureres or in bangkok working, or found new life... as is the case in many of these families.... an other friend's wife is off to taiwant o work, leaving two infants in care of grandma and 14 yr old girl cousin... father is in israel working as labourer...

tutsi... yep.. she will probably have the baby, and then eventually go off to work in the big city, and seek richer pasturers leaving baby with other family members....fourth generation rootless...

as u well know, not much u can do unless u and wife take her in to your family and even then, its probably too late...

cheers bina...you are obviously familiar with these arrangements by way of your connection with the Thai guys that work with you...

yeah...if the niece decides on heading down to the smoke then, if there is a baby, it will end up either at grandma's or with the husbands family. The stepdaughter is now in pole position to take over the household chores at grandma's (she's 12y.o.)...I certainly don't want a repeat scenario...

This scenario is exactly what I meant by "Cinderella"... poor kid! Just a slave to the family, no wonder she rebelled. I'm sure she dreamed of a knight on a white stallion riding in to sweep her off her feet and save her from a life of drudgery..... thus my short anecdote of the 'gold-digger' girl.

Surely, Tutsi, you can talk to your wife about helping to make a 'brighter' future for her?

sorry Kelly...Thailand is my wife's domain especially when it comes to the kids...she's watched them grow up and needs an iron fist in order to control things. She knows that I am well intentioned but she views my intentions as weakness. I have insisted that there shall be no physical violence between anyone within the walls of the house that I have purchased while I am there (see another thread and the broomstick scenario) but that's the best that I can do...

with regard to the Cinderella scenario, the poor girl never reckoned that there would be a shining prince...she had had enough and simply wanted to get out. She fcked up big time and now is expected to toe a harsh line...there ain't much that I can do other than to pay for holidays, pay for household goods wedding presents and etc.

We don't live there...we're in HCMC in VN with me on a job just as before we were in the Gulf. But when the shit came down I was there and I saw the deterioration and the result. I have to admit that it was a stressful time for everyone as I was unemployed and the money was running out. But, the niece is just a poor, stupid girl that doesn't deserve to have her life ruined by some transitory infraction. I can think of plenty of times when I fcked up when I was her age when there could have been punishment just as harsh...but , I'm a male so we usually got away with most things...

keep the comments comin'...

[kat]

Well, this scenario is unfortunately the budding root of another classic problem: Thai children abandoned, grandmother and children pick up the slack, predictable problems, forced marriage, more unwanted children and abandonment, and prostitution as the inevitable end for so many of these children once they grow up.

Pardon me for being blunt Tutsi, but you should mention to your wife the ruler, that this is EXACTLY the recipe for the future life of a bar girl.

[Master Chief]

Hi TW

I have had the same problems with a daughter of my wife, she was left behind to the grandmother when my wife went on to do the big fishing for a better life, she caught me seven years ago and she is one hard boiled lady. I have said it before in some threads that working ladies are not very bright and surely they are not good mothers. We decided to bring the daughter home to us when she was 13, she already started to hang out with the boys up country and we taught we should be able to guide her more if she was in our home. But disaster broke out directly, she felt misplaced in all camps, at home and in school. She found all the bad apples in school and joined the gang. Most of them where thrown out of the school and had to finish term in Thai gov schools.

I managed to persuade the master not to expel our daughter but she left school by her self 6 months later and went on to live with a 19 yo Thai boy. My wife and her family totally cut the connection and left her on her own. She has called me some time and asked for help and I have given her some money. I have always told my wife that I have done so, received very bad feedback from her and the family. She is now 16 and has a new born daughter, the guy’s mother hates the guts out of her and pesters her all day. She has asked to come home to her auntie and been told to ask her mother for forgiveness, but she refuses and will not do so. Status quo.

I feel that life here in Thailand has its own laws and rules, not much a foreigner can do than just look on and be amazed with a smile.

[tutsiwarrior]

Hi TW

I have had the same problems with a daughter of my wife, she was left behind to the grandmother when my wife went on to do the big fishing for a better life, she caught me seven years ago and she is one hard boiled lady. I have said it before in some threads that working ladies are not very bright and surely they are not good mothers. We decided to bring the daughter home to us when she was 13, she already started to hang out with the boys up country and we taught we should be able to guide her more if she was in our home. But disaster broke out directly, she felt misplaced in all camps, at home and in school. She found all the bad apples in school and joined the gang. Most of them where thrown out of the school and had to finish term in Thai gov schools.

I managed to persuade the master not to expel our daughter but she left school by her self 6 months later and went on to live with a 19 yo Thai boy. My wife and her family totally cut the connection and left her on her own. She has called me some time and asked for help and I have given her some money. I have always told my wife that I have done so, received very bad feedback from her and the family. She is now 16 and has a new born daughter, the guy’s mother hates the guts out of her and pesters her all day. She has asked to come home to her auntie and been told to ask her mother for forgiveness, but she refuses and will not do so. Status quo.

I feel that life here in Thailand has its own laws and rules, not much a foreigner can do than just look on and be amazed with a smile.

I totally agree...when it comes to family crises falangs ain't welcome no matter how well integrated one is otherwise (unless of course the family thinks that money could solve the crisis...)

[kayo]

When in Rome...

She{s probably better off, given backgro and circumstances.

Stabitily (marriage, children) was always the way, in all of our countries in centuries gone by. It avoided unrotunate incidences where the child got lost, became a driunk drug addict, lashed out emotionally.... Marry the kid off and he-she can learn family responsabilites...... I ran and never looked back.... I´m love it, love my lifestyle, but I wouldn´t want it enforced over another person´s cultural background.

[tutsiwarrior]

Well, this scenario is unfortunately the budding root of another classic problem: Thai children abandoned, grandmother and children pick up the slack, predictable problems, forced marriage, more unwanted children and abandonment, and prostitution as the inevitable end for so many of these children once they grow up.

Pardon me for being blunt Tutsi, but you should mention to your wife the ruler, that this is EXACTLY the recipe for the future life of a bar girl.

[/quote

the bar girl scenario ain't too upsetting as the girls in question ain't bar girl material...corpulent country girls...as a falang I can't do nothing and cannot prevent another cycle of stupid things happenin'

when in Thailand the wife has the power and she manages to keep things in order...I make all the major money decisions...if there is a way that we can influx money to assist in a way that further problems would not occur then I follow my wife's direction.

(certainly, if I was fluent in the language things would maybe be otherwise...)

[Sheryl]

Well my sympathies are certainly with the girl, and I share your reservations about the approach the family is taking. There's a HUGE generation gap in Thailand these days between teenagers and their elders, reminds me a bit of the West in the 60's-70's: its a huge young generation growing up in a totally different world and with different norms than their elders and the elders don't seem to know it.

Although the stealing $ from grannie was quite bad, having just been through (knock on wood that it IS past tense!) a very rocky road with four Asian adolescent kids, and especially given her circumstances -- it's not surprising and troubles during adolescence often do pass with time. The family is over-reacting and taking a wromg approach. (My 4 did a WHOLE lot worse than your niece and still came around OK in the long run..again, knock on wood!!)

That said, iof course you are not in much position to help. I think the best you can do is be a good friend to the girl, supportive of her as a person...and if language and proximity permit, I would privaetly discuss with her this having a baby idea and make sure she knows it is her choice to make. She can quietly slip off to a FP clinic for an injection every 3 months and the rest of the family need not be the wiser that's she has done so. (I suggest injection rather than pills çoz no incriminating evidence in the house...sghe just doesn't conceive). Even if she's happy in the marriage, she is way too young to have a child now and who knows what the future will bring.

But that's only if your relationship and ability to communicate with her is such that you are in a position to give that advise. Otherwise, just emotional support to the girl, who surely needs it as the rest of the family doesn't seem to have much understanding and sounds more concerned for the problems she posed them than with her welfare per se (which of course is why she acted out in the firstplace!!).

It's an unfortunate situation...

[tutsiwarrior]

. I think the best you can do is be a good friend to the girl, supportive of her as a person...and if language and proximity permit, I would privaetly discuss with her this having a baby idea and make sure she knows it is her choice to make. She can quietly slip off to a FP clinic for an injection every 3 months and the rest of the family need not be the wiser that's she has done so. (I suggest injection rather than pills çoz no incriminating evidence in the house...sghe just doesn't conceive). the future will bring.

I think that the niece may have a something on the ball as far as contraception is concerned. She's been married 6 months now and was sexually active before so I believe that she is quietly controlling the situation...

I try and give her as much support as I can but it's difficult us being in VN with the wife. I did order the wife to buy some home furnishings when it was apparent that there had not been any thought given to a wedding present. But the language problem prevents any meaningful discussion of her plans and etc.