US citizens......do you FBAR?

[55Jay]

^ More regurgitated generic BS. You are a poser, just as I thought.

Edit: Forgot to quote your post, Thailiketoo. I should repeat everything with "you wrote" but I think you know who I'm talking to.

Edited March 13, 2014 by 55Jay

[bonobo]

This thread is getting a bit too personal. We do not need to be getting into phrases such as "lair" and "poser." Keep it civil, please.

[thailiketoo]

^ More regurgitated generic BS. You are a poser, just as I thought.

Edit: Forgot to quote your post, Thailiketoo. I should repeat everything with "you wrote" but I think you know who I'm talking to.

First you said you were winding me up by playing dumb now this.

Well you said FBAR is about taxes quote, "Seriously though, this is about taxes, or, rather, as morgandave said, about not paying taxes."

I wrote, "My position is FBAR is not about taxes." "FBAR is not about taxes" "FBAR is not about taxes. It has nothing to do with taxes."

You said FBAR is about Taxes I said it is not. Flame away. Better yet bring some proof that FBAR is about Taxes.

Edited March 13, 2014 by thailiketoo

[JimGant]

Well you said FBAR is about taxes quote, "Seriously though, this is about taxes, or, rather, as morgandave said, about not paying taxes."

Exactly. If you pay your taxes, but forget to file your FBAR, not to worry (previous ref to IRS notice on OVDP, FAQ 17). In fact, in this situation, you're not even eligible for the OVDP program, since this program involves filing amended tax returns (as well as past FBARs) to declare previously undeclared income. Instead, the IRS directs you to file delinquent FBARs, referencing related 1040 filings that included all your overseas income. No fine, no jail sentence -- as FBAR is not an end in itself (as some here apparently believe).

So, as morgandave said, 'it's about NOT paying taxes.' It's the hammer that goes a lot further in punishing tax cheats than the penalties under the Internal Revenue Code.

In 2003, enforcement of FBAR was handed over from FinCEN to the IRS. Why? Because tax evasion, not money laundering, had become the focus of the FBAR program.

I wrote, "My position is FBAR is not about taxes." "FBAR is not about taxes" "FBAR is not about taxes. It has nothing to do with taxes."

In fact, FBAR is everything about taxes -- as those who have come forth under the several OVDP programs can attest to.

[thailiketoo]

Well you said FBAR is about taxes quote, "Seriously though, this is about taxes, or, rather, as morgandave said, about not paying taxes."

Exactly. If you pay your taxes, but forget to file your FBAR, not to worry (previous ref to IRS notice on OVDP, FAQ 17). In fact, in this situation, you're not even eligible for the OVDP program, since this program involves filing amended tax returns (as well as past FBARs) to declare previously undeclared income. Instead, the IRS directs you to file delinquent FBARs, referencing related 1040 filings that included all your overseas income. No fine, no jail sentence -- as FBAR is not an end in itself (as some here apparently believe).

So, as morgandave said, 'it's about NOT paying taxes.' It's the hammer that goes a lot further in punishing tax cheats than the penalties under the Internal Revenue Code.

In 2003, enforcement of FBAR was handed over from FinCEN to the IRS. Why? Because tax evasion, not money laundering, had become the focus of the FBAR program.

I wrote, "My position is FBAR is not about taxes." "FBAR is not about taxes" "FBAR is not about taxes. It has nothing to do with taxes."

In fact, FBAR is everything about taxes -- as those who have come forth under the several OVDP programs can attest to.

You may be fined for not filing FBAR if you don't own taxes. You may be fined for not filing FBAR if you do owe taxes.

Non-willful violations of a failure to file are subject to a civil penalty of not more than $10,000.

Being unaware of your responsibilities for filing an FBAR is not considered to be a mitigating factor.

If you have tax problems you will have problems with FBAR. If you don't have tax problems you may have problems with FBAR.

Failing to file FBAR does not cause you to have to pay more taxes. Failure to file FBAR may cause you to be fined not taxed.

If the reason for not filing FBAR is murder you may go to jail for murder. If the reason for not filing FBAR is not paying income tax you may go to jail for not paying income tax. In either case the FBAR penalty will be greater because you willfully did not file. So in as much as FBAR could be about murder it is also could be about taxes. It could be about anything that causes you willfully not to file.

Edited March 13, 2014 by thailiketoo

[wym]

willful obstreperousness or just obtuse?

[JimGant]

You may be fined for not filing FBAR if you don't own taxes

What is it about FAQ 17 that you don't understand? It's referenced in full earlier, in an article by tax lawyer Wood in Forbes. And here's another quote from Wood:

But one rule that surprises many people can make entry into the IRS [OVDP] programs unnecessary. What’s more, it holds out the promise of no penalties whatsoever. Sound too good to be true? If you failed to file FBARs but reported all your income from foreign accounts, your tax returns are OK. The IRS has said that if you just file 6 FBARs with a letter explaining that you didn’t know about FBARs and don’t owe any taxes, there aren’t any penalties. So says a piece of IRS guidance generally known in the tax world as FAQ 17.

Wood doesn't sound totally convinced (as he didn't in the Forbes article). But, the IRS published Notice is not some simple letter ruling. That it is published and disseminated should give full standing to those who follow its guidance. (Plus, it makes complete sense -- to not punish folks who pay their taxes in full, but forgot to file a form that, in its own right, has no bearing in a situation where taxes aren't being evaded.)

You may be fined for not filing FBAR if you do owe taxes.

Well, duh, yes. That's what the FBAR scene is all about -- additional pain, in addition to fines and interest associated with paying delinquent taxes.

Non-willful violations of a failure to file are subject to a civil penalty of not more than $10,000.

Again, per FAQ 17, only if you ALSO failed to declare and pay taxes on foreign income on accounts subject to FBAR reporting. Otherwise, you're not a tax evader, and the FBAR hammer will not be applied.

Thailike2, I believe your logic tree has root rot. But, if you'd not like to give it a rest, how about discussing why you think FAQ 17 is non applicable to this discussion?

[thailiketoo]

willful obstreperousness or just obtuse?

Because it is about paperwork and not taxes I met a lawyer who said a $10.000 fine for failure to fill out paper work couild be litgated under the Cruel and Unusual punishment law. He thought there was a chance of winning.

[55Jay]

^ More regurgitated generic BS. You are a poser, just as I thought.

Edit: Forgot to quote your post, Thailiketoo. I should repeat everything with "you wrote" but I think you know who I'm talking to.

First you said you were winding me up by playing dumb now this.

Well you said FBAR is about taxes quote, "Seriously though, this is about taxes, or, rather, as morgandave said, about not paying taxes."

I wrote, "My position is FBAR is not about taxes." "FBAR is not about taxes" "FBAR is not about taxes. It has nothing to do with taxes."

You said FBAR is about Taxes I said it is not. Flame away. Better yet bring some proof that FBAR is about Taxes.

Oh, OK then. If that's your point, then so be it. You are correct in that FBAR isn't about taxes insomuch as it is filed separately to another Division within Treasury and yes, you are correct, the gubment can hang you out to dry if it wanted to, for simply not filing when you should. Nobody would argue that point on its merits. Even the OP had it figured out back on page 1, which is why your instruction on the matter, page after page, ad nauseam, is.... interesting.

I meant to ask you before, because of a comment you made. Do you feel that FBAR is just another over-reaching government intrusion and that failing to file a form, a stupid piece of paper, is a victimless crime (no injured party) therefore is unconstitutional?

Edit to add that my opinion of your point may again not be correct after posting this then seeing Jim Gant's points above. I was not aware of that and defer accordingly.

Edited March 13, 2014 by 55Jay

[55Jay]

willful obstreperousness or just obtuse?

Because it is about paperwork and not taxes I met a lawyer who said a $10.000 fine for failure to fill out paper work couild be litgated under the Cruel and Unusual punishment law. He thought there was a chance of winning.

The jello begins to congeal.

[mogandave]

Yes, the overseas exemption can be called generous for normal people.

But the relevant point here was that citizens of other countries can simply tell their government none of your business how much I make overseas.

And your opinion on the topic doesn't pertain much does it, fact is the wealthier you are the easier and more legal it is, I think that horse has been well let out of the barn decades ago, the American middle class is pretty well on its way to oblivion now. . .

But your opinion somehow does?

You claim every other country allows their citizens to move money into offshore accounts, and the the revenue from those accounts are not taxable. You make that claim based not on research, but on discussions with your friends.

If that were true, a billionaire in England could move all their money into a brokerage account in the US and pay virtually no taxes to England. This sounds a little suspect to me.

I don't like paying taxes, I think they are too high, but I don't cheat, and I don't hold with cheating. I don't think any individual should have to pay taxes on interest generated by income that's already been taxed, but if the US accounts are taxed, I think foreign accounts should be taxed as well. You don't, so be it.

As government gets bigger, the people can do nothing but get smaller.

[mogandave]

So littering is punishable by a $500 fine and up to 30 days in jail in most states, yet the jails are not full of smokers that flicked their butt in the gutter, why is that?

[wym]

And I know we all freak out every time we see one of these babies:

[wym]

But your opinion somehow does?

You claim every other country allows their citizens to move money into offshore accounts, and the the revenue from those accounts are not taxable. You make that claim based not on research, but on discussions with your friends.

If that were true, a billionaire in England could move all their money into a brokerage account in the US and pay virtually no taxes to England. This sounds a little suspect to me.

I don't like paying taxes, I think they are too high, but I don't cheat, and I don't hold with cheating. I don't think any individual should have to pay taxes on interest generated by income that's already been taxed, but if the US accounts are taxed, I think foreign accounts should be taxed as well. You don't, so be it.

As government gets bigger, the people can do nothing but get smaller.

Sorry if I wasn't more clear, there are two separate issues.

The US is the only developed country AFAIK that taxes money ACTUALLY EARNED overseas - that is if you are living overseas you are no longer "resident for tax purposes" in your own country and therefore don't have to pay tax on your income.

Only someone LIVING in their home country has to pay income taxes. Except for we Yankish suckers.

WRT offshore banking - of course by that I mean the tax havens specifically engineered for this purpose. And my point was simply that it was the Brits who pretty much "started it" with their nearby islands - Man, Jersey Guernsey, then Bahamas, Caymans and BVI.

The large corporations and very wealthy can of course afford the professional advice to take advantage of all this stuff completely legally.

I'm not at all talking about the way I think the world SHOULD be, just how it actually is, and again, that horse got out of the stable long ago.

[55Jay]

And I know we all freak out every time we see one of these babies:

You know what this cop is checking for?

[55Jay]

And I know we all freak out every time we see one of these babies:

You know what this cop is checking for?

LOL.

[phuketrichard]

FBAR has nothing to do with tax's.

If you work overseas, make $250,000 , You file taxs, 1040, 2555 etc etc

the first $96,000 or so is tax free, anything over that you pay tax on.

If you NEVER have more than $9,900 in ALL ur foreign bank acocunts during the year, u NEVER have to FBAR>

Its that simple

Edited March 14, 2014 by phuketrichard

[wym]

[thailiketoo]

What is it about FAQ 17 that you don't understand? It's referenced in full earlier, in an article by tax lawyer Wood in Forbes. And here's another quote from Wood:

Wood doesn't sound totally convinced (as he didn't in the Forbes article). But, the IRS published Notice is not some simple letter ruling. That it is published and disseminated should give full standing to those who follow its guidance. (Plus, it makes complete sense -- to not punish folks who pay their taxes in full, but forgot to file a form that, in its own right, has no bearing in a situation where taxes aren't being evaded.)

Well, duh, yes. That's what the FBAR scene is all about -- additional pain, in addition to fines and interest associated with paying delinquent taxes.

Again, per FAQ 17, only if you ALSO failed to declare and pay taxes on foreign income on accounts subject to FBAR reporting. Otherwise, you're not a tax evader, and the FBAR hammer will not be applied.

Thailike2, I believe your logic tree has root rot. But, if you'd not like to give it a rest, how about discussing why you think FAQ 17 is non applicable to this discussion?

http://www.tax-power.com/PDFs/IRS%20FBAR%20rejection%20letter.pdf

At that point I attempted to point out the discrepancies between the letter that the IRS is sending out and the instructions that state, not that a current form MUST be used, but rather that a current form MAY be used if the form for the year in question could not be obtained, during which the IRS employee would not permit me to discuss the issue and rather than ask for a reference or thank me for pointing out the discrepancy so they could research the matter, she then became extremely rude and indignant and insisted that I give her my name as though I were a criminal. At that point I thanked her for her help and hung up the phone.

In conclusion, if the IRS is sincere when they state that in situations where there does not exist any unreported income but merely want an FBAR filed which they state should be mailed to Michigan with a statement of reasonable cause (had the taxpayer not filed the original FBAR when it was due) and that these returns are not included under the OVDI. It is advisable to write in the letter or statement or on the form that this returns is filed subject to IRS FAQ#17 which alerts the IRS that it is filed as a mere attempt to comply with previously unknown reporting requirements.

http://www.tax-power.com/irs_rejecting_fbars.htm

Edited March 14, 2014 by thailiketoo

[JimGant]

What is it about FAQ 17 that you don't understand? It's referenced in full earlier, in an article by tax lawyer Wood in Forbes. And here's another quote from Wood:

Wood doesn't sound totally convinced (as he didn't in the Forbes article). But, the IRS published Notice is not some simple letter ruling. That it is published and disseminated should give full standing to those who follow its guidance. (Plus, it makes complete sense -- to not punish folks who pay their taxes in full, but forgot to file a form that, in its own right, has no bearing in a situation where taxes aren't being evaded.)

Well, duh, yes. That's what the FBAR scene is all about -- additional pain, in addition to fines and interest associated with paying delinquent taxes.

Again, per FAQ 17, only if you ALSO failed to declare and pay taxes on foreign income on accounts subject to FBAR reporting. Otherwise, you're not a tax evader, and the FBAR hammer will not be applied.

Thailike2, I believe your logic tree has root rot. But, if you'd not like to give it a rest, how about discussing why you think FAQ 17 is non applicable to this discussion?

http://www.tax-power.com/PDFs/IRS%20FBAR%20rejection%20letter.pdf

At that point I attempted to point out the discrepancies between the letter that the IRS is sending out and the instructions that state, not that a current form MUST be used, but rather that a current form MAY be used if the form for the year in question could not be obtained, during which the IRS employee would not permit me to discuss the issue and rather than ask for a reference or thank me for pointing out the discrepancy so they could research the matter, she then became extremely rude and indignant and insisted that I give her my name as though I were a criminal. At that point I thanked her for her help and hung up the phone.

In conclusion, if the IRS is sincere when they state that in situations where there does not exist any unreported income but merely want an FBAR filed which they state should be mailed to Michigan with a statement of reasonable cause (had the taxpayer not filed the original FBAR when it was due) and that these returns are not included under the OVDI. It is advisable to write in the letter or statement or on the form that this returns is filed subject to IRS FAQ#17 which alerts the IRS that it is filed as a mere attempt to comply with previously unknown reporting requirements.

http://www.tax-power.com/irs_rejecting_fbars.htm

Your point is....there are non rocket scientist bureaucrats working over at Treasury?

[donniereadit]

Asking whether to break a IRS rule is nuts. Read the instructions and if in doubt get a tax advisor to do your taxes. It's actually not that costly to have them done.