So, Is This Theft?

[chuchok]

Did she tell that or did it come from the djungle drum, how we know facts? Did she tell that directly to the OP? He got the handbag back so let it be.

What if the phone was worth THB20,000.What if it had stored information in it that was needed?

It might just be a phone to you, but to many people it is very important.

[Ijustwannateach]

I lost a wallet once and had it returned sans cash, but I was pretty grateful to get all the other stuff in it and it wasn't that much cash. The person who returned it said the cash had already been removed, but I forgive him even if he was the one who took it.

A phone seems to be taking things too far, though, IMHO...

"Steven"

[Master Chief]

They still could have just tossed away the handbag and have you guys not been to the live and learn corner where they do teach you to backup your so easy lost mobile phone, live and learn amigos.

[Sing_Sling]

They still could have just tossed away the handbag and have you guys not been to the live and learn corner where they do teach you to backup your so easy lost mobile phone, live and learn amigos.

Yes, so now it's the owners fault she is not getting her phone back, nice values you have master chef. Were the shoe on the other foot . . .

[Master Chief]

Nice values??

Facts are facts, or are we just so lucky that we do not have some of you guys presenting our cases in court, because then we would do long time on hear sayings from third persons or the press.

Yeah but they said and he told me and the press wrote???

Just follow all the cases that pop up among people here in Thailand and one can learn that there is no straight guide ruler here, all is the how much money is involved, how influent people are and why it was done. So how does it apply to this case and that is only what we here can speculate within this forum.

My values are presented in my presentation and those have nothing to relate in any case to this matter. Bag lost and bag found, what goes on in between are fiction facts, because there are no comments from the persons directly involved.

[sbk]

Perhaps bannork should elaborate on the story, and let us all know if she admitted to taking the phone and money or if this is just an assumption or on the word of the puyaiban?

Personally, if she actually admitted to taking the phone & money I would tell the puyaiban that you want the phone back -- explain that it has all your numbers on it, try to enlist his help in getting it back. Usually works better that way than immediately going to the police.

[Master Chief]

Perhaps bannork should elaborate on the story, and let us all know if she admitted to taking the phone and money or if this is just an assumption or on the word of the puyaiban?

Personally, if she actually admitted to taking the phone & money I would tell the puyaiban that you want the phone back -- explain that it has all your numbers on it, try to enlist his help in getting it back. Usually works better that way than immediately going to the police.

SBK

I'm happy to see that there is someone who finally understands.

[Sing_Sling]

Well, Master Chef - seeing as you are clearly a razorsharp legal eagle ponder this: we are discussing a story. This story is told by the OP and he states the facts (according to him) - we cannot second-guess this story because the other party is not present to give her side to the story. So, we can only give our opinion according to what we know.

Values? Then please do answer some of the questions posed to you about where to draw the line. When does this become theft in your eyes?

When is it time to say: oi, hang on - that's valuable . .

[sbk]

Perhaps bannork should elaborate on the story, and let us all know if she admitted to taking the phone and money or if this is just an assumption or on the word of the puyaiban?

Personally, if she actually admitted to taking the phone & money I would tell the puyaiban that you want the phone back -- explain that it has all your numbers on it, try to enlist his help in getting it back. Usually works better that way than immediately going to the police.

SBK

I'm happy to see that there is someone who finally understands.

Cheers for that master chief! After 17 years of living in a very small place where everybody knows everybody else and everybody knows everybody else's business I learned that sometimes the Thai way of doing things (ie mediating through a 3rd party) is the best way if one wants to continue living peacefully in one's home.

[Master Chief]

Well, Master Chef - seeing as you are clearly a razorsharp legal eagle ponder this: we are discussing a story. This story is told by the OP and he states the facts (according to him) - we cannot second-guess this story because the other party is not present to give her side to the story. So, we can only give our opinion according to what we know.

Values? Then please do answer some of the questions posed to you about where to draw the line. When does this become theft in your eyes?

When is it time to say: oi, hang on - that's valuable . .

Here we go again with hear saying; did the OP hear this from the Village head or did he get this explained by translation from his wife?

He gave us his story, was that related to facts?

How well did she translate, as far I know by fact that we only get one third of the whole story translated and understood by Thais. Or is your partner a translator by profession? Or maybe the OP is an thai languish knowledged foreigner

It is theft as there were items missing as I have explained before in the thread. But we have also discussed how to persuade the case and I have said that it might be not so wise to continuo with this matter and just let it drop. Handbag is back, items are missing and what more can be done, was the question? Right?

So what more can there be done? Do you have the answer as your values are so correct in this matter?

And I said in this matter!

SBK has a point in his post and I have incuraged it.

Still SBK understands and there are several more expats whom have lived here for long who understand Thai ways, does that make us corrupt or persons with low values? We have adapted and we live here under the laws and culture of the Kingdom of Thailand, we are its nobel guests and we are pleased to be here among Thais.

[phibunmike]

... I learned that sometimes the Thai way of doing things (ie mediating through a 3rd party) is the best way if one wants to continue living peacefully in one's home.

I agree with that point. Last week my phone was stolen in Manila when I placed it on the table in a bar after finishing a call. I realised it was missing moments after leaving the bar, and went back in, it was gone. I was 90% sure I knew who had taken it, a guy had palmed it from the table, but I couldn't find him. So I negotiated through a 3rd party to offer a "reward" if he could "help find my phone" which I had "left" in the bar - and said I didn't want to make any problems or get the police involved. I bought my phone back for 1000 pesos (about 1000 baht) - the most important thing for me being getting the numbers back (from the phone as well as the SIM card).

Edited May 12, 2006 by phibunmike

[Noel]

Okay, pounder down on the village lady with a police report and think if that would lead to a better village spirit!

spend the time at the police station and report for the whole day and see the thai law in action and that would lead to what? How many of you guys have been and done a police report on minor theft? Has it ever lead to a good nights sleeping the day after? I'm not saying that it is not proper to do it, but are we not in Thailand and what country moral rules do apply here, ours or Thais?

So you are saying that Thai morality condones blatant theft?

[Master Chief]

Okay, pounder down on the village lady with a police report and think if that would lead to a better village spirit!

spend the time at the police station and report for the whole day and see the thai law in action and that would lead to what? How many of you guys have been and done a police report on minor theft? Has it ever lead to a good nights sleeping the day after? I'm not saying that it is not proper to do it, but are we not in Thailand and what country moral rules do apply here, ours or Thais?

So you are saying that Thai morality condones blatant theft?

Please read the whole thread, as explain theft is theft, but how far to go on with the matter?

[Noel]

Okay, pounder down on the village lady with a police report and think if that would lead to a better village spirit!

spend the time at the police station and report for the whole day and see the thai law in action and that would lead to what? How many of you guys have been and done a police report on minor theft? Has it ever lead to a good nights sleeping the day after? I'm not saying that it is not proper to do it, but are we not in Thailand and what country moral rules do apply here, ours or Thais?

So you are saying that Thai morality condones blatant theft?

Please read the whole thread, as explain theft is theft, but how far to go on with the matter?

I have read the whole thread and your view seems to be that the right thing to do is to run away from the issue.

By you later saying: "I'm not saying that it is not proper to do it, but are we not in Thailand and what country moral rules do apply here, ours or Thais?" clearly implies that you believe Thai morality to condone theft.

My question above therefore still stands.

[opothai]

the original question

is this theft?

answer

only a little bit.

TIT

[meadish_sweetball]

Okay, pounder down on the village lady with a police report and think if that would lead to a better village spirit!

spend the time at the police station and report for the whole day and see the thai law in action and that would lead to what? How many of you guys have been and done a police report on minor theft? Has it ever lead to a good nights sleeping the day after? I'm not saying that it is not proper to do it, but are we not in Thailand and what country moral rules do apply here, ours or Thais?

There is no Thaimoral anywhere saying you can take what you want from other people's purses. This is theft, both in Thailand and elsewhere. If you think otherwise, somebody has been filling you up with lies or you have not bothered to ask any Thais what their opinion is.

Bannork's wife is Thai too, do you think she is of the opinion that this is acceptable behaviour?

I would first talk to the village headman and explain calmly to him that I was happy with seeing the bag back, but that the rest should also be returned. If he does not listen, I would go to the police.

I agree fully, and all the decent Thais I know agree too, that a reward is given, not taken.

Background information is important - if you were more familiar with bannork and his contributions in the Thai language forum, you would also know he is proficient enough in Thai to hear exactly what the village headman said himself, without any need for translation from his wife.

[Guest endure]

You ought to ask the village headman if whoever has the phone is a Buddhist. If he says yes ask him to remind them of the second precept - the one that says you shouldn't take things that are not given.

[RAZZELL]

As they say "You either have an earner...or a learner.... "

Yeah, it's theft...but you got the bag, id etc back....which would have been a pain to replace.

"mai pen rai" and all that...

Take more care next time...

[OneeyedJohn]

Bannork.

Its probably water under the bridge but

when the Headman /Puyaiban returned the bag and said the money and phone are being kept by the woman, then surely ur first response would be to ask him why he didn't point out to the woman how wrong she was. She has no rights to the contents whatever morals u apply. Then if the headmans answer is unsatisfactory then u could easily concoct a story whereby u trot off wiv puyaiban to see the woman and gently explain the error of her ways.

Is the phone operating in English or Thai text,and is she likely to have the wit / money to operate it..?

More likely she has sold it for a few 100 Bht.

[bannork]

Thanks for all your replies, it's not the first time I've heard of this sort of thing, everyone was quite open about it, the woman took the bag to the headman explaining her reasoning that as the finder she had the right to keep the items.He, in turn, relayed this clearly.

It's not worth making an issue over, a phone worth 2000 baht and 400 baht, the wife knows she was careless; in small villages it's a fool who makes enemies for there's no police for 12 kilometres,anything can happen after dark.

It was more her open moral,or immoral, stance that struck me, one that left holes you could drive a bus through. It reminds me of the Buddhists who say it's wrong to kill, but they eat meat themselves."But I didn't kill it, it was dead already!''

But if you didn't buy it, eat it, the butcher wouldn't kill it!

For myself I've only had one item stolen in 20 years of living in Thailand and that was a pair of trainers I'd attached to the outside of my bag in the boot of a bus in Songkhla.

I must have been on dozens of train journeys, third class in the past, when I've gone off to the refreshment car for hours and left tape-players, etc in the luggage rack. Nothing's ever gone missing.

[backflip]

"it's not the first time I've heard of this sort of thing"

So, what was your purpose of posting, then? You made it sound like the crime of the century, when it's utter foolishness.

[wolf5370]

I wonder if the lady kept the money and the headman kept the phone (or visa versa) for their 'payment'. For face, he may pass on that the lady kept it all.

I would certainly ask for the sim card back - or even offer to buy the phone back if it was important to me (if refused I certainly would have the phone blocked as someone said above). Wouldn't bother with the police, the lady would change her story and say the headman missheard her (or maybe even blame him) - point is, unless she has it in plain sight, its gone and police snooping around will just make enermies (even of the headman , which is not a good idea!).

Also remember, that next time you may not get anything back at all - save them the bother and they still get to keep the goodies.

[sbk]

It's not worth making an issue over, a phone worth 2000 baht and 400 baht, the wife knows she was careless; in small villages it's a fool who makes enemies for there's no police for 12 kilometres,anything can happen after dark.

Precisely my point. If one is going to live in a small village one has to learn to get along.

Is it theft? Absolutely, I didn't say it wasn't. I just said that if one wants to learn to live in a very small place peacefully then the best solution isn't always the righteous one.

Personally, I don't think this kind of attitude is common, probably this lady is just this way. I've met a few like that, who think that somehow the world owes them something, but I've also met plenty of other people who very carefully return what is not theirs.

Like anywhere in the world, it depends on the person.

[Totster]

It's not worth making an issue over, a phone worth 2000 baht and 400 baht, the wife knows she was careless; in small villages it's a fool who makes enemies for there's no police for 12 kilometres,anything can happen after dark.

This is the reason I suggested using the poo yai baan.. in the village he takes on a "police" roll anyway.. I doubt anyone in the villages would welcome the police being brought in..

I still say make requests via poo yai baan for the Sim card at least.

totster

[meadish_sweetball]

I now know why I will never move to a village.

[barryofthailand]

He said a woman in his village had found it and was returning the documents, ie ID card and AIA insurance card but was keeping the phone and money!

This guy took the time out of his busy day to bring back the bag and ID, yet your upset about the phone and Baht? Go figure.....You should've drank some Lao Cao with the guy!!

Come on. Have you ever been to a village? Village head men do not have busy days. They usually drink beer all day.

Barry

[Totster]

Come on. Have you ever been to a village? Village head men do not have busy days. They usually drink beer all day.

Barry

I think thats a bit harsh, and certainly not true in our village

totster

[bannork]

"it's not the first time I've heard of this sort of thing"

So, what was your purpose of posting, then? You made it sound like the crime of the century, when it's utter foolishness.

I was wondering if anyone else had had the same experience of some items being obviously liberated whilst others were retained.

I've heard of police keeping speakers from a sound system they'd found as 'expenses' but that's different as they truly have sod all for petrol costs etc.

By the way MS, don't let my comments put you off living in a village, people leave keys in ignitions, don't lock doors at night, the last theft in our village was when a cousin stole his uncle's plough and sold it 3 years ago, needless to say he can never come back!

[dog412]

it's not only theft, but a direct affront against you and your family.

[psychedelix47]

This sort of thing transfers bad karma, you or your lady should be grateful it's with someone else now.

Find out who the "lucky" finder/keeper is, and insist on thanking them in person.

Give them the opportunity to clear their debt.