Suthep: No reform, no election

[bkksteviejai]

Sorry Yunla, it looks like you're missing my point.

Maybe your hatred of Suthep stand in the way of reading what I really wrote.

First he didn't hijack a mass protest, he brought several protesting groups together. Next he didn't say anywhere, that he will decide on the make-up of any leadership group and people did NOT die because of his involvement. That was red shirts against Ramkhamhaeng students fighting, some 15 or 20 clicks away from Suthep. And likely some black shirts involvement.

I'm not against parliamentary democracy, just the opposite. But I refuse to accept labeling something as a parliamentary democracy, if it isn't such a thing. A parliament for the sake of having one is useless. It must serve the people it is supposed to serve and who elected it. Or what do you think? And elections must be fair and equal to all involved and then some more,- you can read it up in Wikipedia I guess.

Strange: Most foreigners, that are opposed to the current demonstrators here are all for the demonstrators in the Ukraine...

Sam

I don't hate Suthep, or anyone else. I'm closer to the Light than I am to the life-of-the-party, now. I don't have the energy to hate anyone.

Re; Parliamentary Democracy, that is exactly what I was posting about in the post you responded to; how Parliament here needs to be ironshod beyond what other nations have, to balance out what is an overall lax system here.

Infact most Parliamentary Democracies are based on cultural values, and vary from nation to nation. Northern Europe has Parliaments that are based on their historical and cultural group mindset, and centuries of experience. Thailand needs a different approach to Parliament, which is still a "Debate-Based Democratic Parliament" but which needs more regulation to counterbalance the lets say 'buccaneer spirit' we see here in the political class.

Re; the deaths caused. I was pro the massprotest, the 200k+ people marching for a day. Then they should have gone home. That is a big demo, it is a big statement. Suthep urged them to stay on for weeks, and told them to keep pushing. Then people died. If everyone had gone home, nobody would have died. 1+1=2. Save your he-say / she-say / black shirts / mystery shooters stuff, I got bored of that three years ago. This country is a tinderbox, you don't go throwing matches around.

Democracy street-style is ; hold a massprotest for a day, show the nation you have support, distribute information, then go back to your districts and prepare for the eventual elections.

You are out of your depth on this one, don't make me get my flying monkeys.

I like this post....

[pkspeaker]

A non-corrupt police force is more la-la land, especially in a country like this.. ok look at this way:

...so your a college kid tourist and get busted on kaosarn road for possession of a joint, no problem you bribe the cops 5 or 20,000 baht and they let you out of jail w/o sending the case to the prosecutor and transferring you to bangkok central prison. whew, that was scary but i'm alright now..

**tomorrow POOF** Sutheps 'reforms' have stamped out all corruption.

OK your doing the time, you get 1 year in Bangkok Central Prison for a joint, this dirty overcrowded place, by the time you get out your health has deteriorated, and your life is ruined.. oh yea and all those Go-Go bars= GONE, prostitution is illegal and here in thailand we play by the rules all the time. Oh and anyone that gets caught in this dragnet, including innocent people wrongly accused have 'total asset confiscation and LONG sentences' and also consider Thailand has no 'white=collar' persons, it just has the tough prsions.. We're gonna destroy many lives to achieve this magical no-corruption.

You think that's gonna make this country a happy place? You think having these extreme laws and punishments is going to help the economy here.. Vietnam has these extreme penalties, death for corruption, death for drugs, theres still corruption and drugs and all I see over there is about 10 times the poverty Thailand has.

A non-corrupt police force would require a more highly paid professional police force - something that neither side has up to this point seemed to interested in paying for (unfortunately). Any police officer convicted of corruption should face severe penalties (total asset confiscation; long sentences) which would only be able to be reduced by flipping on officers above your rank. The implementation of a Internal Affairs (police of police); Civilian Oversight Board; among other things.... with the potential of in the short term hiring outside oversight from Singapore during the transition period. All revenue collected (spot fines; street vendors) should be collected via permits etc and go through general revenues which would then fund higher professional salaries and a potential one time payout to reimburse those lower down the money required to join the police force in the first place (that they had expected to make back over time).

[Bpuumike]

At least he's keeping Yingluck off the front page

No, she's doing that herself.

Strikes me she can't speak without orders.

[khunken]

Sorry Yunla, it looks like you're missing my point.

Maybe your hatred of Suthep stand in the way of reading what I really wrote.

First he didn't hijack a mass protest, he brought several protesting groups together. Next he didn't say anywhere, that he will decide on the make-up of any leadership group and people did NOT die because of his involvement. That was red shirts against Ramkhamhaeng students fighting, some 15 or 20 clicks away from Suthep. And likely some black shirts involvement.

I'm not against parliamentary democracy, just the opposite. But I refuse to accept labeling something as a parliamentary democracy, if it isn't such a thing. A parliament for the sake of having one is useless. It must serve the people it is supposed to serve and who elected it. Or what do you think? And elections must be fair and equal to all involved and then some more,- you can read it up in Wikipedia I guess.

Strange: Most foreigners, that are opposed to the current demonstrators here are all for the demonstrators in the Ukraine...

Sam

I don't hate Suthep, or anyone else. I'm closer to the Light than I am to the life-of-the-party, now. I don't have the energy to hate anyone.

Re; Parliamentary Democracy, that is exactly what I was posting about in the post you responded to; how Parliament here needs to be ironshod beyond what other nations have, to balance out what is an overall lax system here.

Infact most Parliamentary Democracies are based on cultural values, and vary from nation to nation. Northern Europe has Parliaments that are based on their historical and cultural group mindset, and centuries of experience. Thailand needs a different approach to Parliament, which is still a "Debate-Based Democratic Parliament" but which needs more regulation to counterbalance the lets say 'buccaneer spirit' we see here in the political class.

Re; the deaths caused. I was pro the massprotest, the 200k+ people marching for a day. Then they should have gone home. That is a big demo, it is a big statement. Suthep urged them to stay on for weeks, and told them to keep pushing. Then people died. If everyone had gone home, nobody would have died. 1+1=2. Save your he-say / she-say / black shirts / mystery shooters stuff, I got bored of that three years ago. This country is a tinderbox, you don't go throwing matches around.

Democracy street-style is ; hold a massprotest for a day, show the nation you have support, distribute information, then go back to your districts and prepare for the eventual elections.

You are out of your depth on this one, don't make me get my flying monkeys.

Sorry but it's you who is out of your depth.

First, democracy is not based on cultural values. Parliamentary & presidential democracy is based on an historical incident or incidents and in many cases has not changed in comparison with culture which is dynamic. There is no perfect democracy but it cannot succeed if the rule of law doesn't exist which is why it has not been successful in Thailand. It hasn't been a total failure but it bows to the most manipulative individuals & groups.

No party here has anything close to an ideology. There are major groups of 'shirts' none of which espouse democratic principles. They are used by the major manipulators.

Many here, including many shallow-thinking posters on this thread, think that elections solve everything. 'We win so we can do what we like' attitude which is faux democracy. This is exacerbated by ignoring vote buying which results in a faux election.

Your comment on 'democracy street-style' is rubbish. Ask Martin Luther King, Occupy Wall St, the vietnam war, the Iraq invasion, austerity and protests in Egypt, Tunisia and currently in Ukraine. Suthep personally is not supported by many but his main thrust is. He has awakened Thai society to the dangers - past, present & future - of one-man 'democracy', of a type that would never be tolerated in established democracies.

Contrary to the lie or propaganda, he has proposed an interim (repeat interim) council not controlled by PTP (we saw where their last one went) that will sort out the most pressing problems with an election afterwards. He has not proposed himself for leadership Thaksin-style but has left open how the council should be formed. He certainly won't get everything he wants but if he can achieve a less vote-buying election and/or reduced Shin clan interference, he will have achieved a lot.

[h90]

To those who think that the democratic system in Thailand is so terrible and dysfunctional, I would invite you to watch a movie called 'The Act of Killing' - a remarkable movie about the purge of alleged communists in Indonesia during the 1960's. It is one the most sobering movies I have ever seen and you can download it for free. When we all think that democracy is leading us to 'hell in a hand-basket', there are more recent examples in SE Asia of what it was truly like to live in 'totalitarian' state and a 'messiah' promising to bring the us the great life of living under the glory of the will of the people. Pol Pot also comes to mind.

That why Suthep says that he'll leave politics and everyone in his reform government is than banned for 5 years from politics. To stop a totalitarian state before it can even begin.

And well look at Hitler or Mr. "I am good at killing people" they were democratic elected. I think democratic or not democratic doesn't make a big difference.

[FangFerang]

Thai Mein Kampf! I have great respect for Suthep--only He sees the way forward, and only He can lead Thais to a better peace. Of course we have to stop Democracy for awhile, until His good people can see a way to make the elections more...reasonable. Only Suthep has this great vision and even though Thais accepted His views at first, and are now reconsidering, that does not matter. It does not matter if His own people have doubts! They are sheep, and He is the sacred Shepherd. Let them know His love, and deep felt devotion, and care.

Suthep is the leader of all good things! Hail Suthep!

Sieg Heil!!

He is a new religion, praise God and the Lord Buddha!!

Edited December 15, 2013 by FangFerang

[stockholm1995]

Suthep: No reform, no election

Jawohl mein commandant

He reminds me of 2 people.

[zydeco]

To reform Thailand for sustainable development, several issues must be addressed especially laws on elections, political parties, election commission and corruption prevention"

"Sustainable development" This is the piece of the OP that highlights itself.

"Sustainable development" is a carefully placed talking-point. I vividly remember seeing and hearing this slogan being circulated in a very high profile manner after the last military coup. The rest of Suthep' points in the OP we've all heard before.

With reference specifically to "sustainable development," who... (self censorship here.) Connecting the dots will lead to (more self censorship here).

This is a very dangerous post.

[Old Man River]

According to Reuters "Anupong, 64, and Prawit, 67" are power behind the Suthep - and they may still hold enough sway that if push comes to shove the army would side with Suthep.

It is obvious to me that what some of us see as crazy rants are really movements of pieces on a Chessboard. If the People's pusch fails; then the the next piece to move is for a judicial pusch; and only if that fails would the Army be pushed to be the forefront. They would prefer not being seen as taking sides, but if they did it would be on the side of Suthep.

This is how I currently see it playing out:

Phase 1: Suthep mobilizes population to oppose an unpopular piece of legislation - a win; He then uses his current status to continue a people's pusch and otherthrow the elected democratic government (this has fizzled - so Phase 2 begins)

Phase 2: Judicial coup. Democratic Party resigns from parliament leaving most of not only members of parliament to be those that voted in favour of an elected senat. Even though the democratic government took no actions to violate the constitution by starting the process of electing senators, the opinions raised that the courts overstepped their boundary (or some-other reason) would be used to disqualify the rest of the MPs before the next election leaving a vacuum to which a "People's Council" could then be appointed.

Phase 3: If for some reason that fails to materialize the Army would be forced to play their cards and step out from behind the curtains.

Simply put, the election is not likely going to take place.

There you go. Spot on. Forget the elections.

I don't know who is funding this. It is expensive. I highly (highly) doubt it is being funded by Anupong and Pravit.

[pookiki]

About a week ago, I was talking with a Thai man who is a contractor building an apartment building near where I live and a place I pass on the way to exercise everyday. We happened to begin talking about corruption and he noted that corruption was rampant in Thailand. I replied that corruption is a problem with governments all over the world. He replied that I was from a relatively young country that had not been able to develop corruption as 'way of life' as it does in Thailand. It will take generations to change things as ingrained as corruption is in Thailand. An analogy is racial equality in the US. Lincoln freed the slaves in 1863. When I was a young man in the late 1950's there were still segregated restrooms in the south and segregated school systems in the north and south. Then, 100 years later, came the Civil Rights Act which was followed by considerable unrest and assassinations. Now, the US has a black President and the racist vitriol has yet to cease. Yes, there has been progress but a lot more needs to be done. It seems that so many of the people posting here have this surreal notion that someone will be able to 'snap their finger' or 'flip a switch' and corruption will disappear and Thailand will live by good and righteous democracy ever after. Reform is as real as most of the 'women' who come out of Bangmod Hospital! Democracy is not a fairy tale.

The rule of law has wiped out institutionalised and public racism, sexism in Australia in one generation. In my lifetime we have gone from , "The white Australia policy" to "multiculturalism".

I've talked to more than a few Aboriginals that would disagree with this point of view. But ................ I guess that's why the place is commonly referred to as 'Oz' in TVF. Off to see the Wizard any time soon?

Edited December 15, 2013 by pookiki

[SouthernMan3]

This is why : The focus of the protestors is the out of control corruption by the Thaksin Shinawatra owned political

parties.

[Alwyn]

Chaos continues as no one will give an inch for the sake of the country, its all me me me!

P.J. O'Rourke . . .

"Giving money and power to government is like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys."

[Alwyn]

James Bovard once wrote that "Democracy should be something more than two wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for dinner."

[backtonormal]

One of the more interesting points about Suthep is that despite all his years as a top dog in the Dems, he would appear to be now saying that the Democrats are equally corrupt and useless and not fit to govern the Country (a sentiment that I would totally agree with!). Why else would he be calling for his "Peoples' Council" and not for all good men to roll their sleeves up and work for a Dem victory in the polls?

This has nothing to do with politics.

You sir have demonstrated more knowledge of the situation than all on this forum bar a few. Its to do with ousting Thaksin but not for his alledged corruption but his friendships and what that holds for Sutheps backers in the future. For those bleating about corruption...you may wish to read this translation from a radio show with a top Democrat MP

Deputy Democrat party leader Alongkorn Ponlaboot in an interview that was broadcast on May 31, 2013 on John Winyu’s show (รองหัวหน้าพรรคประชาธิปัตย์กล่าวในรายการ “เจาะข่าวตื้น ตอน 99″) stated:

“Recently, if we speak directly, they [Puea Thai] use little money. I am not saying we [the Democrats] use more money than them [Puea Thai]. [host interprets with statement "they are using less money"]. It has become inverted [host interprets and says "They don't need to use so much money?"] I say if it is like that then don’t say we lost because of money”. “For the last election, it may be because we actually used more than them. Therefore, don’t talk about this issue anymore."

What an eye opener for them kiss butt Democrat "know nowts" on here. Get a grip and please...no more posts about Reds buying votes

[backtonormal]

According to Reuters "Anupong, 64, and Prawit, 67" are power behind the Suthep - and they may still hold enough sway that if push comes to shove the army would side with Suthep.

It is obvious to me that what some of us see as crazy rants are really movements of pieces on a Chessboard. If the People's pusch fails; then the the next piece to move is for a judicial pusch; and only if that fails would the Army be pushed to be the forefront. They would prefer not being seen as taking sides, but if they did it would be on the side of Suthep.

This is how I currently see it playing out:

Phase 1: Suthep mobilizes population to oppose an unpopular piece of legislation - a win; He then uses his current status to continue a people's pusch and otherthrow the elected democratic government (this has fizzled - so Phase 2 begins)

Phase 2: Judicial coup. Democratic Party resigns from parliament leaving most of not only members of parliament to be those that voted in favour of an elected senat. Even though the democratic government took no actions to violate the constitution by starting the process of electing senators, the opinions raised that the courts overstepped their boundary (or some-other reason) would be used to disqualify the rest of the MPs before the next election leaving a vacuum to which a "People's Council" could then be appointed.

Phase 3: If for some reason that fails to materialize the Army would be forced to play their cards and step out from behind the curtains.

Simply put, the election is not likely going to take place.

There you go. Spot on. Forget the elections.

I don't know who is funding this. It is expensive. I highly (highly) doubt it is being funded by Anupong and Pravit.

Its great to have posters who know about the 'big picture'. My belief was supported by a very high so worker who replied " how farang know this' some of us know ...the rest post all day

[lineofentry]

Thailand already has a 'people's council' - it is also widely accepted and known throughout the intelligent world as an elected government durrrrrh.

[backtonormal]

This is why : The focus of the protestors is the out of control corruption by the Thaksin Shinawatra owned political

parties.

That may be a belief of the protestors but its not the goal of the protest leaders and backers

Edited December 15, 2013 by backtonormal

[Thailand]

Thailand already has a 'people's council' - it is also widely accepted and known throughout the intelligent world as an elected government durrrrrh.

Try Googling "people's council"

[fasteddie]

Surely this nutjob must now be charged with "lese majeste" given he is refusing to accept elections announced by the king.

[pookiki]

Sorry Yunla, it looks like you're missing my point.

Maybe your hatred of Suthep stand in the way of reading what I really wrote.

First he didn't hijack a mass protest, he brought several protesting groups together. Next he didn't say anywhere, that he will decide on the make-up of any leadership group and people did NOT die because of his involvement. That was red shirts against Ramkhamhaeng students fighting, some 15 or 20 clicks away from Suthep. And likely some black shirts involvement.

I'm not against parliamentary democracy, just the opposite. But I refuse to accept labeling something as a parliamentary democracy, if it isn't such a thing. A parliament for the sake of having one is useless. It must serve the people it is supposed to serve and who elected it. Or what do you think? And elections must be fair and equal to all involved and then some more,- you can read it up in Wikipedia I guess.

Strange: Most foreigners, that are opposed to the current demonstrators here are all for the demonstrators in the Ukraine...

Sam

I don't hate Suthep, or anyone else. I'm closer to the Light than I am to the life-of-the-party, now. I don't have the energy to hate anyone.

Re; Parliamentary Democracy, that is exactly what I was posting about in the post you responded to; how Parliament here needs to be ironshod beyond what other nations have, to balance out what is an overall lax system here.

Infact most Parliamentary Democracies are based on cultural values, and vary from nation to nation. Northern Europe has Parliaments that are based on their historical and cultural group mindset, and centuries of experience. Thailand needs a different approach to Parliament, which is still a "Debate-Based Democratic Parliament" but which needs more regulation to counterbalance the lets say 'buccaneer spirit' we see here in the political class.

Re; the deaths caused. I was pro the massprotest, the 200k+ people marching for a day. Then they should have gone home. That is a big demo, it is a big statement. Suthep urged them to stay on for weeks, and told them to keep pushing. Then people died. If everyone had gone home, nobody would have died. 1+1=2. Save your he-say / she-say / black shirts / mystery shooters stuff, I got bored of that three years ago. This country is a tinderbox, you don't go throwing matches around.

Democracy street-style is ; hold a massprotest for a day, show the nation you have support, distribute information, then go back to your districts and prepare for the eventual elections.

You are out of your depth on this one, don't make me get my flying monkeys.

Sorry but it's you who is out of your depth.

First, democracy is not based on cultural values. Parliamentary & presidential democracy is based on an historical incident or incidents and in many cases has not changed in comparison with culture which is dynamic. There is no perfect democracy but it cannot succeed if the rule of law doesn't exist which is why it has not been successful in Thailand. It hasn't been a total failure but it bows to the most manipulative individuals & groups.

No party here has anything close to an ideology. There are major groups of 'shirts' none of which espouse democratic principles. They are used by the major manipulators.

Many here, including many shallow-thinking posters on this thread, think that elections solve everything. 'We win so we can do what we like' attitude which is faux democracy. This is exacerbated by ignoring vote buying which results in a faux election.

Your comment on 'democracy street-style' is rubbish. Ask Martin Luther King, Occupy Wall St, the vietnam war, the Iraq invasion, austerity and protests in Egypt, Tunisia and currently in Ukraine. Suthep personally is not supported by many but his main thrust is. He has awakened Thai society to the dangers - past, present & future - of one-man 'democracy', of a type that would never be tolerated in established democracies.

Contrary to the lie or propaganda, he has proposed an interim (repeat interim) council not controlled by PTP (we saw where their last one went) that will sort out the most pressing problems with an election afterwards. He has not proposed himself for leadership Thaksin-style but has left open how the council should be formed. He certainly won't get everything he wants but if he can achieve a less vote-buying election and/or reduced Shin clan interference, he will have achieved a lot.

A good friend of mine and I are at opposite ends of the political spectrum but one thing we do agree on is everything has to be looked at in 'context'. The context of Thai democracy since it has existed since 1932 is not pretty at all. Depending on whose stats are correct - at least 14 successful coups and 4-5 failed coups -- and only one PM to serve their full term. Can all this turmoil be blamed on Thaksin? Please. Thaksin can't be be used as a cudgel to explain Thailand's prior failures to achieve a democratic state. How many constitutions? Your ideals about Suthep and his 'pie in the sky proposals' are much more naive than allowing the people to vote.

Edited December 15, 2013 by pookiki

[Gone]

I think if even an average Kathoye run for election that he/she might get ALL the votes because Thailand is sick of everyone who could run for PM.

If Suthep would just shut his keg hole, let the King's ruling for a new election Feb. 2nd take place and support whoever wins everyone would be ahead.

In the past 2 months, Thailand has managed to go backwards by 20 years just via politics.

The ONLY thing Thailand should be preparing for right ow is an HONEST election. How that can happen is a mystery BUT they could invite in 3rd parties to set up voting stations throughout Thailand and to also count the votes.

Problem here is that no matter who gets in (legit or illegit) there will always be protsts in this Develpoing Country.

[khunken]

Sorry Yunla, it looks like you're missing my point.

Maybe your hatred of Suthep stand in the way of reading what I really wrote.

First he didn't hijack a mass protest, he brought several protesting groups together. Next he didn't say anywhere, that he will decide on the make-up of any leadership group and people did NOT die because of his involvement. That was red shirts against Ramkhamhaeng students fighting, some 15 or 20 clicks away from Suthep. And likely some black shirts involvement.

I'm not against parliamentary democracy, just the opposite. But I refuse to accept labeling something as a parliamentary democracy, if it isn't such a thing. A parliament for the sake of having one is useless. It must serve the people it is supposed to serve and who elected it. Or what do you think? And elections must be fair and equal to all involved and then some more,- you can read it up in Wikipedia I guess.

Strange: Most foreigners, that are opposed to the current demonstrators here are all for the demonstrators in the Ukraine...

Sam

I don't hate Suthep, or anyone else. I'm closer to the Light than I am to the life-of-the-party, now. I don't have the energy to hate anyone.

Re; Parliamentary Democracy, that is exactly what I was posting about in the post you responded to; how Parliament here needs to be ironshod beyond what other nations have, to balance out what is an overall lax system here.

Infact most Parliamentary Democracies are based on cultural values, and vary from nation to nation. Northern Europe has Parliaments that are based on their historical and cultural group mindset, and centuries of experience. Thailand needs a different approach to Parliament, which is still a "Debate-Based Democratic Parliament" but which needs more regulation to counterbalance the lets say 'buccaneer spirit' we see here in the political class.

Re; the deaths caused. I was pro the massprotest, the 200k+ people marching for a day. Then they should have gone home. That is a big demo, it is a big statement. Suthep urged them to stay on for weeks, and told them to keep pushing. Then people died. If everyone had gone home, nobody would have died. 1+1=2. Save your he-say / she-say / black shirts / mystery shooters stuff, I got bored of that three years ago. This country is a tinderbox, you don't go throwing matches around.

Democracy street-style is ; hold a massprotest for a day, show the nation you have support, distribute information, then go back to your districts and prepare for the eventual elections.

You are out of your depth on this one, don't make me get my flying monkeys.

Sorry but it's you who is out of your depth.

First, democracy is not based on cultural values. Parliamentary & presidential democracy is based on an historical incident or incidents and in many cases has not changed in comparison with culture which is dynamic. There is no perfect democracy but it cannot succeed if the rule of law doesn't exist which is why it has not been successful in Thailand. It hasn't been a total failure but it bows to the most manipulative individuals & groups.

No party here has anything close to an ideology. There are major groups of 'shirts' none of which espouse democratic principles. They are used by the major manipulators.

Many here, including many shallow-thinking posters on this thread, think that elections solve everything. 'We win so we can do what we like' attitude which is faux democracy. This is exacerbated by ignoring vote buying which results in a faux election.

Your comment on 'democracy street-style' is rubbish. Ask Martin Luther King, Occupy Wall St, the vietnam war, the Iraq invasion, austerity and protests in Egypt, Tunisia and currently in Ukraine. Suthep personally is not supported by many but his main thrust is. He has awakened Thai society to the dangers - past, present & future - of one-man 'democracy', of a type that would never be tolerated in established democracies.

Contrary to the lie or propaganda, he has proposed an interim (repeat interim) council not controlled by PTP (we saw where their last one went) that will sort out the most pressing problems with an election afterwards. He has not proposed himself for leadership Thaksin-style but has left open how the council should be formed. He certainly won't get everything he wants but if he can achieve a less vote-buying election and/or reduced Shin clan interference, he will have achieved a lot.

A good friend of mine and I are at opposite ends of the political spectrum but one thing we do agree on is everything has to be looked at in 'context'. The context of Thai democracy since it has existed since 1932 is not pretty at all. Depending on whose stats are correct - at least 14 successful coups and 4-5 failed coups -- and only one PM to serve their full term. Can all this turmoil be blamed on Thaksin? Please. Thaksin can't be be used as a cudgel to explain Thailand's prior failures to achieve a democratic state. How many constitutions? Your ideals about Suthep and his 'pie in the sky proposals' are much more naive than allowing the people to vote.

Simplistic response without addressing most of my points..

It is senseless to blame any current individual on history so it's an irrelevant question. My ideals are also irrelevant but if you mean my opinion then 'pie in the sky' (why?) is no worse than 'do nothing' and continuing with a failed system is far more naive than any suggestions for changes.

The current faux democracy has been manipulated by the Shin clan to gain power and that is certainly one of the root causes of the current crisis. If you think allowing (paying) people to vote constitutes a democratic election then welcome to Zimbabwe.

Have you any ideas that might contribute other than knocking others?

[falangadang]

no election, no democracy.

no rule by the people for the people = no democracy

A Thai election won't (and historically hasn't) necessarily result in a democracy.

I get Suthep's point and understand his zealousness even though it is very unorthodox and getting somewhat long in the tooth.

Whilst he indicates that unless his demands for caretaker govt resignation and establishing of PDRC are met then the "people" will regroup (perhaps 10 fold?) once again prior to Feb 2nd, that IMHO could only be possible if he keeps the flames of protest and dissent burning between now and then.

Otherwise I expect the Feb 2 election will take place and he may have to lick his wounds and take time out to recover his position and possible pursue the cause another day!

[DrTuner]

Well, Suthep is winging it as he goes. But it looks like there are some brains behind him, a reform does sound good. Not going to happen, of course, but sounds good. Now let's wait and see what they'll invent to actually describe "reform". My guess is current cronies out, old cronies in. The usual.

I did like the death sentence for corruption proposal though. That would wipe out 99.99% of the current government, clean slate.

[DrTuner]

5. So there won't be elections?

This is incorrect. The People's Assembly's crucial function is reform, which will actually lead to more elections. For example:

- Electing a national police commission that selects commissioners from the public and has the authority to appoint high-ranking police officers, such as the national police commissioner-general, to ensure that police serve the public interest.

And the head of immigration, I suppose. Reform in that context brings cold shivers.

[pookiki]

Simplistic response without addressing most of my points..

It is senseless to blame any current individual on history so it's an irrelevant question. My ideals are also irrelevant but if you mean my opinion then 'pie in the sky' (why?) is no worse than 'do nothing' and continuing with a failed system is far more naive than any suggestions for changes.

The current faux democracy has been manipulated by the Shin clan to gain power and that is certainly one of the root causes of the current crisis. If you think allowing (paying) people to vote constitutes a democratic election then welcome to Zimbabwe.

Have you any ideas that might contribute other than knocking others?

OK, I will address your points. On what do you assert that Thailand is a faux democracy other than your opinion? It is easy enough to say and well, 'we all know that'. But the bottom line is that it is an empty assertion without facts. And, I assume, where there are facts, the person or persons involved in the vote-buying were removed from office. On last count, 40 democracies were saying that 'elections' were the proper solution to Thailand's problems. Maybe even one of the democracies you are from. But I am just a shallow-thinker by your standards, right? Mr. No-knock.

[SouthernMan3]

5. So there won't be elections?

This is incorrect. The People's Assembly's crucial function is reform, which will actually lead to more elections. For example:

- Electing a national police commission that selects commissioners from the public and has the authority to appoint high-ranking police officers, such as the national police commissioner-general, to ensure that police serve the public interest.

And the head of immigration, I suppose. Reform in that context brings cold shivers.

Who said anything about immigration ?

I didn't notice that.

Am I missing something or are you just making this up as you go along ?

[Local Drunk]

Wow... really? 10 Million? Why not say 100 Million. More impact.

There aren't a hundred million people in Thailand, but you can estimate the millions that will disagree with the former current government by comparing the percentages of the last election results. Should that estimate be correct, you can add the number to the former pro government voters that don't support it anymore. It could be a lot of people...

[dunque]

Here's a thought for the few deluded posters here who think that democracy doesn't work in Thailand......United States, the two main parties bring the country close to meltdown every three months. UK? Labour won most seats in the last election but the conservatives formed the government. Russia? Give me a break! Italy? Silvio Berlusconi.

Democracy in Thailand is no better or worse than it is in any other country, and it would work better if people worked from within the electoral and legal systems to improve it instead of running crying to the army at the least excuse.

Conservatives won 306 and Labour 258 seats

[khunken]

Simplistic response without addressing most of my points..

It is senseless to blame any current individual on history so it's an irrelevant question. My ideals are also irrelevant but if you mean my opinion then 'pie in the sky' (why?) is no worse than 'do nothing' and continuing with a failed system is far more naive than any suggestions for changes.

The current faux democracy has been manipulated by the Shin clan to gain power and that is certainly one of the root causes of the current crisis. If you think allowing (paying) people to vote constitutes a democratic election then welcome to Zimbabwe.

Have you any ideas that might contribute other than knocking others?

OK, I will address your points. On what do you assert that Thailand is a faux democracy other than your opinion? It is easy enough to say and well, 'we all know that'. But the bottom line is that it is an empty assertion without facts. And, I assume, where there are facts, the person or persons involved in the vote-buying were removed from office. On last count, 40 democracies were saying that 'elections' were the proper solution to Thailand's problems. Maybe even one of the democracies you are from. But I am just a shallow-thinker by your standards, right? Mr. No-knock.

If you bothered to read my initial post you would see that I made some arguments. Here are some more.

No democracy can exist without the rule of law. This country has laws, almost all of which are ignored by all sectors of society. Corruption is endemic - Thailand has fallen badly in the latest transparency international table. Vote buying is corruption and makes a mockery of the election - most money wins!

Against the wishes of relatives of innocents killed in 2010, some of the red shirts and even numerous PTP supporters, they tried to provide an amnesty to their leader as well as up to 25,000 being investigated for corruption by the NACC. PTP also rejected a court decision that went against them. Ordinary Thais are prosecuted for even questioning a court's decision - it is illegal - but not for PTP of course.

No established democracy would countenance a convicted criminal running the government from offshore. Nepotism is another nail in democracy's coffin here.

Yes, all that contains a mix of facts & opinion.

Now where are your facts?