opinion on building plans for office & workshop

[Charly2008]

I am in an early stage to plan a building from a footprint from 140 sqm. I have very little buiding experience from back in Europe, but know that here in LOS all is somehow different, i.e. building on piles, put first the pillars at the corners up and then make the wall in between etc.pp., therefore I would like to ask about your opinion if it is possible to do like planned and practicable. The building area will be around Pattaya

The area is 10x14m with 1 office 4x6m another room with 4x4m, a toilet/bathroom with 3x3m and a stock room with 3x7m, all those in L shape on the outer walls and the workshop with 7x10m completes the 10x14m. The outer walls shall be strong enough to fix the normal stuff like air-con's and perhaps shelves at the stock room, but they should have a good R-value as well. What material should be used and wall thickness?

The entire building should be like a 2 storey building high (roof height) the rooms as mentioned only 3 meters high with concrete ceiling with a load capacity of 200 kg/sqm. How thick the ceiling has to be made for that load capacity?

This open space under the roof shall be used as additional storage area, the work shop with 7x10m will be open until the roof.

On the second floor I would somehow ensure a good ventilation, in order to keep the temperature on the workshop in an acceptable range, the roof shall be insulated.

I know that I need for all this an architect to make the proper drawings and a construction company to do the job, but at this stage I would like to get perhaps some feedback on my thoughts and ideas, perhaps even an idea about the costs.

Thanks and cheers,

charly

[bbradsby]

Your project sounds easily "do-able" in either metal building or site-built concrete and block construction typical of Thai residential projects. What is your preference?

The site-built option gives you better quality, security, aesthetics, acoustics, intrinsic thermal performance, and design flexibility… but costs more than a prefab metal building. The upper floor loading you mention is basically residential as long as there are not heavy point loads, so precast concrete planks with wire mesh-reinforced concrete topping will handle it if properly designed - total thickness should be approx. 100 - 125mm - but the main thing is to get the whole building & structure properly designed, engineered, and constructed.

Design, engineering and construction costs depend on your choices as to the above options.

[sirineou]

It is a relatively easy structure to design, your numbers are a little off, see sketch the long room ends up being 4x7.

You have failed to allocate space for stairs to access the up[stairs storage space. you will need 1 Meter wide

perhaps you can take space from the 4x7 room , remember that the dividing walls have thickness .10 to.20 so your rooms will be a little smaller. To achieve the open space you will have a span of 6 m between columns, I recommencement a lightweight roof .

Edited December 19, 2013 by sirineou

[sirineou]

if you gave this sketches to any semi competent engineer, you don't need an architect, Ask where you go to file for building permits in your area they will probably be able to do it for you there foe very little money, and since it is their plan you will have no problem with approval.

Use Color-bond or similar roof with insulation attached to it,

you can decide where where you wan to place your windows to take advantage of the orientation of the building, a few awning windows ,3 M lower than the roof will help vacate the hot air as it rises, keep in mind that you will need a mechanism to open them or you can place exhaust fans at that height and create a convection cycle going to cool the premises

Use AAC block (super block or similar) on exterior walls to insulate the stracture and keep the building cool.

[IMHO]

if you gave this sketches to any semi competent engineer, you don't need an architect, Ask where you go to file for building permits in your area they will probably be able to do it for you there foe very little money, and since it is their plan you will have no problem with approval.

Use Color-bond or similar roof with insulation attached to it,

you can decide where where you wan to place your windows to take advantage of the orientation of the building, a few awning windows ,3 M lower than the roof will help vacate the hot air as it rises, keep in mind that you will need a mechanism to open them or you can place exhaust fans at that height and create a convection cycle going to cool the premises

Use AAC block (super block or similar) on exterior walls to insulate the stracture and keep the building cool.

Wowsers, you have some time on your hands

Comments: The 6M wide open span in the main area will need an engineer to asses (an architect will just play it safe and add more posts in the middle), and the left side rooms will need the post @ 3M (looks like 4-5M in your sketch), as there needs to be a beam between those posts to support the 2nd floor (unless it overhangs).

Edit: Sorry you already said Engineer. Correct

Basic rules for beams are: a beam under every wall, and beams supporting floor above are connected directly to posts, not the middle of another beam.

Edited December 19, 2013 by IMHO

[sirineou]

if you gave this sketches to any semi competent engineer, you don't need an architect, Ask where you go to file for building permits in your area they will probably be able to do it for you there foe very little money, and since it is their plan you will have no problem with approval.

Use Color-bond or similar roof with insulation attached to it,

you can decide where where you wan to place your windows to take advantage of the orientation of the building, a few awning windows ,3 M lower than the roof will help vacate the hot air as it rises, keep in mind that you will need a mechanism to open them or you can place exhaust fans at that height and create a convection cycle going to cool the premises

Use AAC block (super block or similar) on exterior walls to insulate the stracture and keep the building cool.

Wowsers, you have some time on your hands

Comments: The 6M wide open span in the main area will need an engineer to asses (an architect will just play it safe and add more posts in the middle), and the left side rooms will need the post @ 3M (looks like 4-5M in your sketch), as there needs to be a beam between those posts to support the 2nd floor (unless it overhangs).

Edit: Sorry you already said Engineer. Correct

Basic rules for beams are: a beam under every wall, and beams supporting floor above are connected directly to posts, not the middle of another beam.

All correct

when using long distances between columns, the situation can be mitigated by beefing up the steel for the roof with a truss system, and as I recommended the use of light wight roofing material such as colorbond.

The sketches were done on Google sketch-up, I don't think it took me more than 30 min for all three sketches

but I have being using the program to design several homes for me and friends,for about 3 years and by now I have achieved a certain level of proficiency on it, It is frustrating at the beginning, but after only a little while you learn

some very time saving techniques, For instance the roof took me two minuted to do, I set the protractor to 25 degrees , closed a triangle on one side of the roof, selected the roof area with the select tool, and used the "follow me tool" which created the roof.

Edited December 19, 2013 by sirineou

[IMHO]

if you gave this sketches to any semi competent engineer, you don't need an architect, Ask where you go to file for building permits in your area they will probably be able to do it for you there foe very little money, and since it is their plan you will have no problem with approval.

Use Color-bond or similar roof with insulation attached to it,

you can decide where where you wan to place your windows to take advantage of the orientation of the building, a few awning windows ,3 M lower than the roof will help vacate the hot air as it rises, keep in mind that you will need a mechanism to open them or you can place exhaust fans at that height and create a convection cycle going to cool the premises

Use AAC block (super block or similar) on exterior walls to insulate the stracture and keep the building cool.

Wowsers, you have some time on your hands

Comments: The 6M wide open span in the main area will need an engineer to asses (an architect will just play it safe and add more posts in the middle), and the left side rooms will need the post @ 3M (looks like 4-5M in your sketch), as there needs to be a beam between those posts to support the 2nd floor (unless it overhangs).

Edit: Sorry you already said Engineer. Correct

Basic rules for beams are: a beam under every wall, and beams supporting floor above are connected directly to posts, not the middle of another beam.

All correct

when using long distances between columns, the situation can be mitigated by beefing up the steel for the roof with a truss system, and as I recommended the use of light wight roofing material such as colorbond.

The sketches were done on Google sketch-up, I don't think it took me more than 30 min for all three sketches

but I have being using the program to design several homes for me and friends,for about 3 years and by now I have achieved a certain level of proficiency on it, It is frustrating at the beginning, but after only a little while you learn

some very time saving techniques, For instance the roof took me two minuted to do, I set the protractor to 25 degrees , closed a triangle on one side of the roof, selected the roof area with the select tool, and used the "follow me tool" which created the roof.

Yep, a steel truss/beam would be required for the open span, and an engineer would likely cover the full 10M width with them too (not just the 6M open span). Easier to calculate lateral loading that way

[Charly2008]

thanks for the feedback and opinion, much appreciated, especially for the layouts from sirineou.

The building itself should have walls all around up to the roof, the workshop as well, at the 10 m side of the workshop shall be somewhere in the middle a door with a width of at least 3m and from there to the left the stairway to access upstairs.

For the walls, those AAC blocks have a good R-value, but are they strong enough to fix something? I mean the material itself is very porose and soft, any experience on that? I red that this material is not really suitable for bathrooms as it will absorb water.

Another thing what woirries me is the foundation, the land to build it on has been filled up more then 1 year ago (the highest fill was perhaps 1.5m), should I wait longer, perhaps another year? The initial soil is mostly fine sand, how deep should be the piling?

Questions over questions, I guess this is a tough job ahead.

cheers,

charly

[IMHO]

thanks for the feedback and opinion, much appreciated, especially for the layouts from sirineou.

The building itself should have walls all around up to the roof, the workshop as well, at the 10 m side of the workshop shall be somewhere in the middle a door with a width of at least 3m and from there to the left the stairway to access upstairs.

For the walls, those AAC blocks have a good R-value, but are they strong enough to fix something? I mean the material itself is very porose and soft, any experience on that? I red that this material is not really suitable for bathrooms as it will absorb water.

Another thing what woirries me is the foundation, the land to build it on has been filled up more then 1 year ago (the highest fill was perhaps 1.5m), should I wait longer, perhaps another year? The initial soil is mostly fine sand, how deep should be the piling?

Questions over questions, I guess this is a tough job ahead.

cheers,

charly

Walls to the roof will require a ring beam around the middle to support (you don't make a single wall 6M high).

AAC blocks are not as good as red bricks for anchoring loads onto - after you've drilled through the render, the AAC block feels like butter...

What sort of weight are you thinking about hanging off the wall? if it's significant (say > 20 or 30KG) you should probably consider adding a horizontal beam(s) at the anchoring point (something like a door/window header) - in which case AAC will work fine.

As for foundations, leave that to the engineer. If the land is still considered unstable they will likely suggest using footings on top of pilings.

[sirineou]

thanks for the feedback and opinion, much appreciated, especially for the layouts from sirineou.

The building itself should have walls all around up to the roof, the workshop as well, at the 10 m side of the workshop shall be somewhere in the middle a door with a width of at least 3m and from there to the left the stairway to access upstairs.

For the walls, those AAC blocks have a good R-value, but are they strong enough to fix something? I mean the material itself is very porose and soft, any experience on that? I red that this material is not really suitable for bathrooms as it will absorb water.

Another thing what woirries me is the foundation, the land to build it on has been filled up more then 1 year ago (the highest fill was perhaps 1.5m), should I wait longer, perhaps another year? The initial soil is mostly fine sand, how deep should be the piling?

Questions over questions, I guess this is a tough job ahead.

cheers,

charly

I left the walls off so that you can see the stricture

it has being correctly pointed out by others that there will be lateral concrete beams poured above windows and at several points as the wall goes up, you will probably need one every couple of meters. The engineer will determine that.

AS far a the soil, it depends on the area you are and to what the land was used before fill. in some areas pilings might need to be driven to stabilize the soil, in other areas you don't need them,Usually , the foundation footings go down one meter, You have filled 1.5 meters but by now one year later it has settled, so if you dig down one meter for your footings you will be close to solid soil, you might need to dig a little deeper than one meter though.

I mentioned AAC block because you raised concern about keeping the place relatively cool. one way to use ACC block and mitigate your concern about hanging things on the inside wall, is to use 3" ACC block on the outside and red brick on the inside,

A double wall,

or you can use a red brick double wall all together with an air gap between the outside and inside,not as good at insulating as AAC block but good enough.

Most of your structural questions will be answered by the engineer who does the final design. gut it does not hurt wanking in there with a little education behind you.

[petrovsky]

Why don't you try to consult this company? They are doing fine. http://www.fatshore.com/fatcont_en.html

[bbradsby]

if you gave this sketches to any semi competent engineer, you don't need an architect, Ask where you go to file for building permits in your area they will probably be able to do it for you there foe very little money, and since it is their plan you will have no problem with approval.

Use Color-bond or similar roof with insulation attached to it,

you can decide where where you wan to place your windows to take advantage of the orientation of the building, a few awning windows ,3 M lower than the roof will help vacate the hot air as it rises, keep in mind that you will need a mechanism to open them or you can place exhaust fans at that height and create a convection cycle going to cool the premises

Use AAC block (super block or similar) on exterior walls to insulate the stracture and keep the building cool.

Wowsers, you have some time on your hands

Comments: The 6M wide open span in the main area will need an engineer to asses (an architect will just play it safe and add more posts in the middle), and the left side rooms will need the post @ 3M (looks like 4-5M in your sketch), as there needs to be a beam between those posts to support the 2nd floor (unless it overhangs).

Edit: Sorry you already said Engineer. Correct

Basic rules for beams are: a beam under every wall, and beams supporting floor above are connected directly to posts, not the middle of another beam.

You guys are a bit clueless about architects, or good ones at least. We don't add columns to "play it safe" …we play it smart by having a structural engineer onboard during design. And a structural engineer is not qualified to design entire buildings, just the structures. This is especially true in Asia!

Also, in Thailand, for government approvals you are required to provide site plan, architectural, structural, basic electrical & plumbing drawings. These, BTW, are basic to getting a proper price for the work of the project - as well as having a ghost of a chance of actually getting it all built according "To Plan" as opposed to lots of pointing, waving and shouting…. an engineer's drawings alone will leave much to to the imagination of your builder, not recommended.

Edited December 19, 2013 by bbradsby

[sirineou]

No to diminish the value of a good Architect,A good architect can take the requirements provided by a client and produce a structure that not only satisfy these requirement but adds form to function.

Bur what the OP describes is a pretty simple , functional design,

I don't know if he is interested in form, if he is he did not indicate it in his OP

As such all he need is structural integrity and IMO that can be easily provided by an engineer in this instance ,

I probably could design such a building in my sleep and I am not a structural engineer. and so can any builder worth his salt.

[IMHO]

if you gave this sketches to any semi competent engineer, you don't need an architect, Ask where you go to file for building permits in your area they will probably be able to do it for you there foe very little money, and since it is their plan you will have no problem with approval.

Use Color-bond or similar roof with insulation attached to it,

you can decide where where you wan to place your windows to take advantage of the orientation of the building, a few awning windows ,3 M lower than the roof will help vacate the hot air as it rises, keep in mind that you will need a mechanism to open them or you can place exhaust fans at that height and create a convection cycle going to cool the premises

Use AAC block (super block or similar) on exterior walls to insulate the stracture and keep the building cool.

Wowsers, you have some time on your hands

Comments: The 6M wide open span in the main area will need an engineer to asses (an architect will just play it safe and add more posts in the middle), and the left side rooms will need the post @ 3M (looks like 4-5M in your sketch), as there needs to be a beam between those posts to support the 2nd floor (unless it overhangs).

Edit: Sorry you already said Engineer. Correct

Basic rules for beams are: a beam under every wall, and beams supporting floor above are connected directly to posts, not the middle of another beam.

You guys are a bit clueless about architects, or good ones at least. We don't add columns to "play it safe" …we play it smart by having a structural engineer onboard during design. And a structural engineer is not qualified to design entire buildings, just the structures. This is especially true in Asia!

Also, in Thailand, for government approvals you are required to provide site plan, architectural, structural, basic electrical & plumbing drawings. These, BTW, are basic to getting a proper price for the work of the project - as well as having a ghost of a chance of actually getting it all built according "To Plan" as opposed to lots of pointing, waving and shouting…. an engineer's drawings alone will leave much to to the imagination of your builder, not recommended.

I have nothing against architects - they are often the only people who can extract a vision out of my head and get it down on paper I also like great landscape designers

But plans for something like this can be drawn by a draftsman for a few hundred Baht per page, and if building in an area of TH that req's building approval first (not all areas do), It's an engineer's signature that's required on the submitted plans.

It's not the Taj Mahal

[bbradsby]

<snip>…. plans for something like this can be drawn by a draftsman for a few hundred Baht per page, and if building in an area of TH that req's building approval first (not all areas do), It's an engineer's signature that's required on the submitted plans.

It's not the Taj Mahal

It's not really a question of Taj Mahal versus outhouse - its a question of good, thoughtful design, building longevity... and life safety since the concrete & steel materials used in LoS are not something you want falling on top of you. Do it right, once.

[Charly2008]

Again thanks to your input. I am thinking more to going towards the red bricks for the walls, but are they available for a 20cm outer wall?

I understand that I need the ring beam around at the middle, but how about the roof, is it somehow possible to put on top of the walls (where a concrete pillar/column is) like a 10m H-beam for support the roof? this I perhpas could use as well to put an hoist up there for lifting items up.

How long will it take to built something like that, with a good construction company? If then I shaould be finished before rain season approaches, isn't it?

Regarding pricing I red somehow that calculated by the sqm prices range from 5000 to 20000 THB/Sqm. What would be the price for something like that, any idea?

Cheers,

Charly