Great Train Robber Ronnie Biggs dies aged 84

[mariner16]

The Telephone Box Money - just as much corruption in UK (at that time at least) as in Asia - the deal with the cops that got the guy that actually hit Jack Mills his continued freedom - well as reported in Wikipedia anyway

"The £47,245 recovered from a telephone box included 57 notes whose serial numbers had been recorded by the bank in Scotland. This money was allegedly part of a deal struck with Frank Williams by "Alf Thomas". Piers Paul Read, in The Train Robbers, claimed that the police were feeling the pressure because although they had caught many of the robbers, they had failed to recover much of the money. While no evidence had been found against "Thomas", who only had a reputation as a minor thief, some of the identifiable bank notes had been traced back to him through friends who had been charged with receiving. Given that the police had no evidence against "Thomas", either at Leatherslade Farm or connection with either of the two gangs, Butler was prepared to let him go. Williams convinced Butler to pull "Thomas" in for questioning and in return for releasing him and not charging his friends with more serious crimes, £50,000 was to be returned. On 3 December 1963, which happened to be the same day that Roy James was taken into custody, the police received an anonymous tip directing them to the money in the phone box. The money was driven up to Aylesbury and taken into custody by Detective Superintendent Fewtrell, who wondered how his London colleagues could know how much money there was. He had to bring in bank clerks to count the damp and musty money to determine the final sum.

Williams made no admission to the recovery of the money being the result of a deal with "Thomas". Despite claiming that his negotiations were responsible for the return of this money, Williams in his book No Fixed Address (1973) claimed not to know the identity of the person who had returned the money, although he did mention several robbers to whom he had offered deals through intermediaries. He noted that it seemed to him that Butler was sceptical of his efforts and that at the press conference Hatherill and Millen did not reveal the circumstances behind the find and that he was never asked to talk with them about it. Despite "Alf Thomas" being the man identified as the assailant of the train driver, Jack Mills, by Bruce Reynolds (albeit indirectly), Williams only makes mention of the assailant once in his book. In this section (often quoted by other sources), he confirms that, with Tommy Butler, he questioned the man they knew to be the assailant but that they had no evidence to convict him. Strangely, however, he makes no further mention of him. This lends credence to the claim that a deal was done with "Alf Thomas" which later caused outrage in the police hierarchy. It is hinted in several books that the deals done by Williams were responsible for him being overlooked for promotion and that Williams was unhappy his efforts were not recognised by Butler, but were instead hidden from superiors".

I make no apology for Biggs or any of the others, they knew the risks and did the time, (Bill Boal who was convicted and died in prison actually had nothing to do with the robbery and was fitted up by the police), The ones I have no time for are the "holier than thou" Daily Mail readers and the tory party mandarins who encouraged the judiciary to give out 30 year sentences to try to hang on a bit longer to their god given right to rule the masses. Personally I see the Great Train Robbery as a poke in the eye of the establishment, which was just one of many events which changed the class system for ever.

[7by7]

Really?

The train robbery was a blow for freedom for the masses?

That sort of thinking is too naïve even for the 6th form debating society.

The robbers weren't a group of anti establishment warriors; they were in it for one reason and one reason only; the money.

The only blow this robbery dealt was the one to poor Jack Mills' head!

[yogi100]

I interviewed him in 1988 and found him a charming guy.The banknotes were going to London to be destroyed and the 'gang' were not aware there was so much money on the train. Someone hit the driver but the level of his injury would not get a young thug today more than a couple of months suspended sentence.

He told me there was never a Mr Big but there was a Mr Biggs. Many pointed the finger at Bruce Reynolds as organiser.

The prison sentences of 30 years were there because this was an affront to the state at the time.

However mass murder these days get's no where near that. Kill an old lady and you might get 10 years but out in five.

Watch the BBC two parter http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/tvandradio/10524818/The-Great-Train-Robbery-BBC-One-preview.html

I wounder how much you paid him for the interview?

As pointed out that guy was a career criminal that lived a much better life than many of us.

There is no doubt in my mind that the attack on the train driver Jack Mills (for which he received a punitive £250 compensation) contributed to his death a few years later.

Biggs got 30 years which was considered a savage and unjust sentence even in those days. Most folk including respectable members of the middle class applauded when he got over the wall and wished him luck. They'd robbed the government with no guns and very little violence but the prison sentences of 30 years horrified even the most law abiding of citizens, the police included. Fifty years on those same members of the middle class who read the Daily Mail now refer to him as 'scum' and a scrounger who only returned to England when his health was failing.

Who on earth would be content to stay in gaol for 30 years and turn their noses up at the opportunity to escape. Back then there was little or no remission for good behaviour.

Driver Mills died seven years later of leukemia. The coroner stated at his inquest that his death was in no way related to the blow he'd received at the time of the GTR.

[Jay Sata]

Really?

The train robbery was a blow for freedom for the masses?

That sort of thinking is too naïve even for the 6th form debating society.

The robbers weren't a group of anti establishment warriors; they were in it for one reason and one reason only; the money.

The only blow this robbery dealt was the one to poor Jack Mills' head!

So if you were assaulted in a similar manner you'd expect the courts to dish out 30 years in clink to the perpetrator? A guy was jailed the other day for manslaughter of a recovering cancer sufferer during a petty argument over a parking space in a supermarket. He got five years so he'll be out in two and a half.

The average thug who commits assault these days rarely gets a custodial sentence. Baby P's mother who witnessed the terrible attacks on her son is free already.

The Great Train Robbers hurt no one apart from the minor injuries suffered by Jack Mills.

If you read the daily newspapers you'll concede by today's standards Biggs and co were gentlemen.

You need to get things in to proportion before swallowing the anti establishment rhetoric re the GTR.

[7by7]

The person who knocked me to the ground last year and then kicked me in the head only got 30 months.

That is not long enough in my opinion; but maybe being the victim I am biased.

It has always been an anomaly of English law, and Scottish I understand, that crimes against property are treated more seriously, and often receive longer sentences, than crimes against the person.

But that is not a reason to excuse Biggs and his fellow criminals let alone attempt to turn them into heroes of the working class!

If you think being hit on the head with an iron bar is 'minor' then you are very much mistaken. I hope you are never unfortunate enough to find that out for yourself.

[Jay Sata]

No one has ever pointed the finger of blame at Biggs.

As he lay on his deathbed in a hospice some years ago 'Big'Jim Hussey confessed to hitting Mills.

He was hired as a 'heavy' and later in life was convicted of assault and drug dealing.

You can't pin the assault on Biggs or indeed anyone else in the gang.

I doubt it was actually an 'iron bar' as the victim would have suffered a fractured skull and most likely a brain haemorrhage. The robbery was spectacular for it's planning in a way where no one was meant to get hurt.

For such a large team and operation the lack of violence has to be admired in comparison to today's society

where people are regularly knifed on the streets of London.

By any account 30 years was excessive for stealing banknotes destined for the incinerator.

[7by7]

No one in this topic has suggested that it was Briggs who struck the blow.

If Jack Mills wasn't hit over the head with an iron bar then all the press reports at the time and since have got it wrong! Although he did die of leukaemia, he suffered trauma headaches for the rest of his life.

Hussey's deathbed 'confession' is widely believed to be a lie; done in order to repay a debt to the actual assailant.

You may admire thieves and career criminals; I don't.

I have no doubt which of us the majority of the British public agree with.

Edited December 20, 2013 by 7by7

[Exsexyman]

Of course Biggs was no saint, but he was not one of the instigators of the robbery, he was just a small time petty crook who happened to know an engine driver. He almost certainly would have had no idea of the scale of the crime until afterwards, and to sentence him to 30 years, the same as the main men who planned and organized it was totally disproportionate. His subsequent life, his escape and life on the run were only in the spotlight because the press kept them in the spotlight, he can hardly be blamed for going along with it. If he had been given 10 years, which was the absolute most his role deserved, no one would have heard of him for the rest of his life. That's what happens when revenge trumps justice.

At least he didn't suffer the ultimate indignity of being portrayed on film by Phil Collins!

[Jay Sata]

No one in this topic has suggested that it was Briggs who struck the blow.

If Jack Mills wasn't hit over the head with an iron bar then all the press reports at the time and since have got it wrong! Although he did die of leukaemia, he suffered trauma headaches for the rest of his life.

Hussey's deathbed 'confession' is widely believed to be a lie; done in order to repay a debt to the actual assailant.

You may admire thieves and career criminals; I don't.

I have no doubt which of us the majority of the British public agree with.

There are a few in the House of Lords and several ex MP's who have done jail time.I guess they don't count because of their social standing. Lord Brocket did time for trying to rip insurance companies off over his car collection and the former Postmaster General tried to fake his own death. But Labour MP John Stonehouse was never pilloried in the press in the same way as Biggs.

Labour politicians have often had their snout in the trough despite supposedly representing the common man.

A recent Sunday Times expose revealed the following

'Undercover reporters posing as lobbyists contacted 10 peers; five Labour, three Conservative, one Liberal Democrat and an Ulster Unionist, to seek help in amending legislation on behalf of a client.

The results reflect badly not only on the House of Lords but also on the Labour party. Of the 10, four were prepared to do business with our lobbyists for fees of up to £120,000 a year. All four were Labour and two were former ministers.'

I'd lump them in with your term thieves.

Essexyman you're spot on.

[Sirius1935]

No one in this topic has suggested that it was Briggs who struck the blow.

If Jack Mills wasn't hit over the head with an iron bar then all the press reports at the time and since have got it wrong! Although he did die of leukaemia, he suffered trauma headaches for the rest of his life.

Hussey's deathbed 'confession' is widely believed to be a lie; done in order to repay a debt to the actual assailant.

You may admire thieves and career criminals; I don't.

I have no doubt which of us the majority of the British public agree with.

Nor have We. And it certainly isn't you.

[Lokie]

The train was NOT air braked, on the contrary it was Vacuumed braked, when they incompetently split off (Un-coupled) the coaches they left the bags down (pipes) thus on a vacuumed braked train you can not gain 21" of Vacuum which will enable the driver to release his brake/s. Also I am sure from what my old colleagues (god bless em) said was that the Loco was fitted with as at that time the new AWS (Automatic Warning System) this was a fail safe safety system which ended up being fitted to all railway vehicles from the 60s to modern day in the UK, hence the Old X steam shunt driver Mr B brought in did not have a clue how to move this Locomotive with the new safety systems fitted, hence they pulled him out of the drivers seat, told him to shut the F up, got Driver Mills back into the seat and threatened to give it him again unless he got the thing moving...

Yep quite some heroes in the middle of the night, Tooled up against a middle aged Train driver and his young second man (drivers assistant) Before anyone askes I speak from 29yrs railway experience and qualified as a shunter driver years ago, not fresh off wikipedia or some newspaper <deleted>, I can assure you all that Biggs is no Hero of any Railway man...

RIP to Driver Mills

[7by7]

Jay Sata, what on Earth has your latest load of drivel got to do with Biggs, the robbery or Mills?

Criminals are criminals; thieves are thieves.

OK, some thieves are deserving of sympathy; a starving child who steals a loaf of bread for example. But criminals like Briggs, Taylor etc.; no.

Sirius1935, your remark suggests that you do admire career criminals. I'm sure that your mind will change should you ever be unfortunate enough to be the victim of one.

[Jay Sata]

Jay Sata, what on Earth has your latest load of drivel got to do with Biggs, the robbery or Mills?

Criminals are criminals; thieves are thieves.

OK, some thieves are deserving of sympathy; a starving child who steals a loaf of bread for example. But criminals like Briggs, Taylor etc.; no.

Sirius1935, your remark suggests that you do admire career criminals. I'm sure that your mind will change should you ever be unfortunate enough to be the victim of one.

Merely pointing out that you appear to see Biggs as some guy who wore a striped jersey with a bag of swag over his shoulder.

In other words the stereotype thief. Had the raid netted £2,000 it would not have been such a big deal. Whereas a former Labour minister such as Dennis McShane is not pilloried in the same way. He is due for sentencing for theft of £13,000 from the public purse at the Old Baily on Monday and will probably only get six months.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-24984940

The ex-MP pleaded guilty last month to false accounting by filing 19 fake receipts for 'research and translation' services.

He used the money to fund a series of trips to Europe, including one to judge a literary competition in Paris.

The maximum jail term available is seven years, but the former MP is likely to get less.

What is the difference between him and Biggs? The sum of money involved.

Then we have the regular parade of benefit fraud claimants. Few get locked up.

I doubt most people on here can remember the Great Train Robbery and are merely repeating the establishment hype.

Biggs never committed another offence after the event.

I guess you don't agree with the rehabilitation of offenders?

As for thugs who commit serious acts of violence I'd transport them to somewhere like the Falklands and give them a couple of years hard labour.

Edited December 21, 2013 by Jay Sata

[Basil B]

I interviewed him in 1988 and found him a charming guy.The banknotes were going to London to be destroyed and the 'gang' were not aware there was so much money on the train. Someone hit the driver but the level of his injury would not get a young thug today more than a couple of months suspended sentence.

He told me there was never a Mr Big but there was a Mr Biggs. Many pointed the finger at Bruce Reynolds as organiser.

The prison sentences of 30 years were there because this was an affront to the state at the time.

However mass murder these days get's no where near that. Kill an old lady and you might get 10 years but out in five.

Watch the BBC two parter http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/tvandradio/10524818/The-Great-Train-Robbery-BBC-One-preview.html

I wounder how much you paid him for the interview?

As pointed out that guy was a career criminal that lived a much better life than many of us.

There is no doubt in my mind that the attack on the train driver Jack Mills (for which he received a punitive £250 compensation) contributed to his death a few years later.

Biggs got 30 years which was considered a savage and unjust sentence even in those days. Most folk including respectable members of the middle class applauded when he got over the wall and wished him luck. They'd robbed the government with no guns and very little violence but the prison sentences of 30 years horrified even the most law abiding of citizens, the police included. Fifty years on those same members of the middle class who read the Daily Mail now refer to him as 'scum' and a scrounger who only returned to England when his health was failing.

Who on earth would be content to stay in gaol for 30 years and turn their noses up at the opportunity to escape. Back then there was little or no remission for good behaviour.

Driver Mills died seven years later of leukemia. The coroner stated at his inquest that his death was in no way related to the blow he'd received at the time of the GTR.

Yes, the sentences were long and disproportionate but I would not call them unjust, had they committed the offence a century earlier they would probably have been sentenced to death.

Very little of the money stolen was ever recovered, so why give them the opportunity to live the good life on release.

How may of the robbers actually severed the full time?

• Leader of the gang, Reynolds spent five years on the run before being jailed for 25 years in 1969. He was released in 1978 (9 years)
• ​Buster Edwards sentenced to 15 years, did 9
• Charlie Wilson sentenced to 30 did 10

Most of those sentenced to 30 years did no more than 12 years, many got their sentences reduced on appeal.

£26 Million in 1963 would be worth over £400 million by today's standard.

[7by7]

Mr Sata, your latest post can only be the result of one of three possibilities. Either

• you have not read my posts,
• you are intellectually incapable of understanding them or
• you are, yet again, arguing just for the sake of an argument.

I suspect it's the third, but:

In case it's the first, I will repeat;

Criminals are criminals; thieves are thieves.

OK, some thieves are deserving of sympathy; a starving child who steals a loaf of bread for example. But criminals like Biggs, Taylor etc.; no. (If you don't know who Baron Taylor of Warwick is or what his crime was, Google is your friend; as you well know.)

If it's the second, then other than suggesting you find an adult to explain it all to you, I can't help you.

[yogi100]

I interviewed him in 1988 and found him a charming guy.The banknotes were going to London to be destroyed and the 'gang' were not aware there was so much money on the train. Someone hit the driver but the level of his injury would not get a young thug today more than a couple of months suspended sentence.

He told me there was never a Mr Big but there was a Mr Biggs. Many pointed the finger at Bruce Reynolds as organiser.

The prison sentences of 30 years were there because this was an affront to the state at the time.

However mass murder these days get's no where near that. Kill an old lady and you might get 10 years but out in five.

Watch the BBC two parter http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/tvandradio/10524818/The-Great-Train-Robbery-BBC-One-preview.html

I wounder how much you paid him for the interview?

As pointed out that guy was a career criminal that lived a much better life than many of us.

There is no doubt in my mind that the attack on the train driver Jack Mills (for which he received a punitive £250 compensation) contributed to his death a few years later.

Biggs got 30 years which was considered a savage and unjust sentence even in those days. Most folk including respectable members of the middle class applauded when he got over the wall and wished him luck. They'd robbed the government with no guns and very little violence but the prison sentences of 30 years horrified even the most law abiding of citizens, the police included. Fifty years on those same members of the middle class who read the Daily Mail now refer to him as 'scum' and a scrounger who only returned to England when his health was failing.

Who on earth would be content to stay in gaol for 30 years and turn their noses up at the opportunity to escape. Back then there was little or no remission for good behaviour.

Driver Mills died seven years later of leukemia. The coroner stated at his inquest that his death was in no way related to the blow he'd received at the time of the GTR.

Yes, the sentences were long and disproportionate but I would not call them unjust, had they committed the offence a century earlier they would probably have been sentenced to death.

Very little of the money stolen was ever recovered, so why give them the opportunity to live the good life on release.

How may of the robbers actually severed the full time?

• Leader of the gang, Reynolds spent five years on the run before being jailed for 25 years in 1969. He was released in 1978 (9 years)
• ​Buster Edwards sentenced to 15 years, did 9
• Charlie Wilson sentenced to 30 did 10

Most of those sentenced to 30 years did no more than 12 years, many got their sentences reduced on appeal.

£26 Million in 1963 would be worth over £400 million by today's standard.

When sentenced to 30 years that's what they could well serve back then. The sentences were reduced because they were considered much too harsh but at the time the GT robbers were not able to look into the future, all they knew was they'd got 30 years. You got no 50% reduced sentences back then, you'd do at least 66% and that was only if you behaved and did not upset your gaolers in any way.

Harry Roberts, who killed three policemen got thirty years minimum is still behind bars right now nearly 50 years later. Habitual criminal Michael Peterson, better known as Bronson and a man who has never murdered anyone has served time that well exceeds his original sentence. Lenient sentences, early release, generous parole and electronic tagging were unheard of back then. In 1966 we'd not long got rid of the rope and the birch although we are now reaping the harvest of such an idiotic decision.

'£26 Million in 1963 would be worth over £400 million by today's standard' which may well be correct but the GTR yielded less than a mere 2.7 million so quoting vastly inflated figures serves no purpose. Then you could buy a house in London for £6,000, now that same house would be around £700,000.

As a point of interest the retired train driver chum of Biggs's recruited to drive the train was the only member of the gang who was at Bridego Bridge who was never caught. Not a single member of the gang informed on his partners in crime when arrested nor were they informed upon by a member of the public. The case was solved because of the ineptness of the robbers themselves and sound police investagative procedure.

[yogi100]

The person who knocked me to the ground last year and then kicked me in the head only got 30 months.

That is not long enough in my opinion; but maybe being the victim I am biased.

It has always been an anomaly of English law, and Scottish I understand, that crimes against property are treated more seriously, and often receive longer sentences, than crimes against the person.

But that is not a reason to excuse Biggs and his fellow criminals let alone attempt to turn them into heroes of the working class!

If you think being hit on the head with an iron bar is 'minor' then you are very much mistaken. I hope you are never unfortunate enough to find that out for yourself.

Personally I'd support the reintroduction of the death penalty for murder and a return to the birch with 8 years hard labour for the likes of the bullying thug who assaulted you.

But to wish misery and ill health on an old man because of his part in a crime that took place 50 years ago is beyond contempt, no matter how spectacular that crime was. Few blamed Biggs for doing what he could to escape that savage sentence back in the 60s and it should be borne in mind that he was a a carpenter who may not have been a model citizen but before the GTR took place he worked and paid NH contributions even if only for a brief period in his adult life.

Let's keep it real, when was the last time you heard of a starving child stealing a loaf of bread and a serious clout over the head with an iron bar would cause much more serious injuries to a fellow than those sustained by Driver Mills.

Edited December 21, 2013 by yogi100

[Basil B]

Yogi, Harry Roberts was sentenced to life with a minimum of 30 years, this is different to a 30 year sentence as handed down to some of the GT robbers, it is clear he has no remorse for his actions and probably considered a danger to the public if let out, now I assume he just would not cope if he was let out.

[MAJIC]

I for one am not sorry that he will not see another Christmas.

He was not a Mr Big in the GTR gang, but he was a career criminal who made life miserable for many, he made a fool of law enforcement here in the UK and when he could not continue his criminal ways, he got the gutter press to finance his miserable existence.

And no remorse for the Train Driver who they brutally coshed,and was never the same again.

[Jay Sata]

Personally I'd support the reintroduction of the death penalty for murder and a return to the birch with 8 years hard labour for the likes of the bullying thug who assaulted you.

But to wish misery and ill health on an old man because of his part in a crime that took place 50 years ago is beyond contempt, no matter how spectacular that crime was. Few blamed Biggs for doing what he could to escape that savage sentence back in the 60s and it should be borne in mind that he was a a carpenter who may not have been a model citizen but before the GTR took place he worked and paid NH contributions even if only for a brief period in his adult life.

Let's keep it real, when was the last time you heard of a starving child stealing a loaf of bread and a serious clout over the head with an iron bar would cause much more serious injuries to a fellow than those sustained by Driver Mills.

Well said Yogi.

Unlike Biggs who was just a humble tradesman Dennis McShane, the former Labour Part Minister for Europe,has a PhD in Economics.

He's facing a prison sentence on Monday at the Old Bailey.

Among those who spoke up in defence of the former Europe Minister was Labour deputy leader Harriet Harman who described him as “well liked and admired by leaders in politics throughout Europe”.

She added: “I have never known him to be duplicitous, financially greedy, or deceptive.”

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/mps-expenses/10531760/Denis-MacShane-given-glowing-character-references-as-he-faces-jail.html

In other words he's not a crook in her eyes.

Perhaps she's failed to grasp he claimed £12,900 from public funds for research and translations services by a company he set up under a false identity.

Greed got the better of him despite earning well over £100k a year.

Edited December 21, 2013 by Jay Sata

[yogi100]

Yogi, Harry Roberts was sentenced to life with a minimum of 30 years, this is different to a 30 year sentence as handed down to some of the GT robbers, it is clear he has no remorse for his actions and probably considered a danger to the public if let out, now I assume he just would not cope if he was let out.

Cheers.

If I get nits I'll know who to contact if I want them picking out.

[7by7]

Lets see if I've got this right.

The whole gang were modern day Robin Hoods who were striking a blow against the establishment on behalf of the oppressed working class.

The driver, Jack Mills, wasn't hit over the head with an iron bar but with a soft cushion; or he was hit with iron bar but did it to himself as he wanted early retirement.

The whole country rejoiced when first Wilson and then Biggs escaped from prison.

The maxim 'if you can't do the time, don't do the crime' doesn't apply to people who have appeared in a pop video with two members of a failed punk band.

Because people still commit crimes and because some of them are educated and/or politicians then those who have committed crimes in the past should be forgiven.

The man was a convicted criminal. Why some people seem determined to paint him as some form of latter day saint completely baffles me.

Edited December 21, 2013 by 7by7

[Jay Sata]

You completely miss the point. No one is denying what Biggs did. The point is the sentence was unjust.

As you appear to never forgive or believe in reform I guess John McVicar is also on you radar.

For the youngsters on here the following from Wiki

In the 1960s, he was an armed robber who was tagged "Public Enemy No. 1" by Scotland Yard. He was apprehended and given a 23-year jail sentence. He escaped from prison on several occasions and after his final re-arrest in 1970 he was given a sentence of 26 years. He subsequently took an Open University degree in Sociology and was awarded a BSc first class. He was paroled in 1978.^[1]

He wrote his autobiography, McVicar by Himself, and scripted the 1980 biographical film McVicar, which starred The Who's lead singer Roger Daltrey in the title role and also co-stars Adam Faith. After his release from prison he studied for a postgraduate degree at the University of Leicester.^[1]

[Basil B]

You completely miss the point. No one is denying what Biggs did. The point is the sentence was unjust.

Unjust in your opinion, not mine.

We pussy foot around in the UK, the punishment is no deterrent as many criminals re-offend.

Prisons are to cushy, take away the TVs, kettles, duvets, snacks and any other personal electrical item from the cells, and do away with prison visiting, do it via video link instead.

[Jay Sata]

We're not discussing prisons but I agree with you regarding some cushy places and soft sentences for real villains.

However as we only have capacity for 90,000 criminals where do you suggest they are accommodated?

[Credo]

We're not discussing prisons but I agree with you regarding some cushy places and soft sentences for real villains.

However as we only have capacity for 90,000 criminals where do you suggest they are accommodated?

That's relatively easy. Use a very old solution. Put them on boats and send to Australia, which will divert them to Papua New Guinea, which sounds like a fitting punishment.

[7by7]

We're not discussing prisons but I agree with you regarding some cushy places and soft sentences for real villains.

Why underline "real villains"?

Biggs was a petty crook who wanted to be a bigger one; which is why he was so desperate to get in on the robbery. He was a real villain.

I do believe that criminals are capable of reform (Not all, though. Peterson, aka Charles Bronson and Charles Ali-Ahmed, who you mention earlier being a prime example).

Was Biggs? maybe, maybe not. That he didn't return to the UK to complete his sentence until he was old and sick and could not afford to pay for his healthcare in Brazil speaks volumes.

Once in prison he repeatedly applied for compassionate release due to his imminent death. He first did so in 2001, and was eventually released in 2009. Following his release his health remarkably improved.

His 'imminent death' in 2001 was not so imminent!

Unlike many of his co robbers who were released early, and unlike John McVicar who you use as an example of reform, he never repented his crime. Had he done so then he would almost certainly been released earlier than he was.

[godden]

all i can say is being born and living in Aylesbury for more than 50 yrs where they received 30 plus yrs don't get done for J walking there

[Jay Sata]

So I guess Lord Brocket who got five years in prison for a £4.5million insurance fraud is not a real villain.He was out after two and a half years in a cushy open prison while the ailing Biggs got locked up in the Victorian highly secure Norwich Prison.

Charles Ronald George Brocket is deemed to have paid his debt to society. Jailed for five years in February 1996 for a pounds 4.5m classic car insurance fraud, he has earned himself an early release through good behaviour. One of the first social engagements for the disgraced peer will be a celebratory lunch hosted by Nigel Hadden-Paton, an old friend from Household Cavalry days, and his wife, Bumble, at their Hertfordshire estate on Sunday.

As I've said in other posts one rule for them and another for the plebs.

[7by7]

Mr Sata, I have raised many points to support my opinion of Biggs; you have addressed none of them

Instead you, again, raise the case of another criminal!

In my posts I have never defended any criminal; yet you accuse me of defending the examples you quote.

Your repeated ridiculous assertions that I do not consider them to be criminals only shows how weak your position is and how increasingly desperate your attempts to justify your argument are becoming.

Until you respond directly to at least one of the points I have posted about Biggs, I see no point in continuing with you.