Why I like Cambo better than Thailand

[mike2011]

The Shop street 240 (also a branch in Tuol Kork)

Blue Pumpkin bakery

Delishop in the Intercontinental Hotel

Fresco (good multigrain bread)

Sisters All Day Breakfast Shop (they will do specialty breads to order) - near Russian Market

Madeleines Cafe-Restaurant-Bakery st 51 near ISPP

Comma a la Maison used to sell breads, haven't beenthere is ages so I don't know if they still do

Java I know has muffins & the like, not sure if bread

French bakery next to Savannah Mall

for Bagels only, Vego's

Deli in Le Duo restaurant for Italian bread (also great source for cheeses)

THANKS! On my net visit I will put the info to the stomach (test).

On a different note: Am I correct that we compare mostly PP, plus perhaps SHV and SR, with theThai province and not Thai centers?

In defense of the Thai province: A careful review of expat boards will produce a wealth of info on imports and local western production. Most is not well advertized and one needs to do some homework but usually once in the region the info pops up quickly. Who generally knows about the small delis in Surin or a German butcher in the sticks in Sakon Nakon? There are more examples.

Sheryl: As an administrator for this section - why dont you open a food thread with some stickys where we can collect the data? Say groceries, restaurants and other stuff that comes to mind. This way the discussion generates a practical product aside from entertainment.

[Sheryl]

At the moment we aren't getting enough hits to warrant a separate food forum but if it gets busier, certainly an idea.

I think we compare PP to Bkk, at least I do, certainly not to Thai provinces.

SHV , the point of comparison would be the various beach results in Thailand

SR I dont know, I suppose either CM or and other major tourist areas in upcountry Thailand?

And non-tourist center upcountry Thailand with provincial towns in camb other than SHV and SR.

Though the differences of course are considerable and increase in descending order of the above list.

Personally I much prefer PP to Bkk, but very much the opposite if comparing provincial towns in Thailand to those in Camb. Other than SHV/Battambang and SR -- and possibly for some folks Kampot -- the quality of life in provincial capital towns in Camb is still pretty poor, certainly far less than in provincial towns in Thailand where it is pretty good though all considered, provided you don't require Western restaurants and goods (not including fast food places as "Western food"...I mean real western food.).

If one wants to live in the countryside then Thailand is by far a better choice IMO. If you want to live in a capital city then it is more debatable and likely depends on what you personally give most weight to.

[mike2011]

What about a restaurant/food thread here? I like some Vietnamese soup shops near the Olympic market for instance. The bakery info is certainly worthwhile to be easily available.

Somehow it is VERY easy to get info on bars and the like on the web. The few places with info on food 'stink' mostly as it is too often hidden advertising. A good example for this are the Indian restaurants in SR. I like the new TV Cambodia section as is it is a good addition that does not suffer from a heavy overemphasis on nightlife or the deplored self-promotion.

[Sheryl]

Once we start to be busier then indeed separate forums/sub forums such as food will be added. not enough traffic just yet to warrant it.

Meanwhile I have added a pinned notice with some useful links of restaurant listings

[OMGImInPattaya]

<p>

Like i said, i lived there and travel there frequently by car and i have seen most of the country as i have a Cambodian gf living with me here. We own land there as well. Outside of the main 3 cities, PP, SR an SHV is it very behind the times,

• you will not find any supermarkets selling western goods...

There are a number of places selling excellent Western grocery items!! In fact Phnom Penh is my preferred source, I buy western food items there to bring back to Thailand. Vastly better selection not to mention things like really good homemade mozzarella and ricotta....and things you simply cannot find in Thailand. To name just a few places:Thai HuotBayonplace on 240 I forget the name of, but great selection of cheeses, green awningThe deli attached to Le Duo restaurant (ricotta and mozzarella to die for, plus other Italian delights)... there's also a great shop for Indian foods and spices.

So you listed a couple cheeses...give me a break! There's much more to western grocery shopping than cheese and I visit Cambodia often and stay in the BKK1 area and been to the Lucky on Sihanouk and to say its anything like even my local foodland in Pattaya is utter non-sense. They maybe have 1/3 the stock of a Thai Foodland, let alone a place like a Tops Gourmet market...you are just completely wrong in your assessment of the availability and quality of western foodstuffs between PP and Thailand.

[phuketrichard]

<p>

Like i said, i lived there and travel there frequently by car and i have seen most of the country as i have a Cambodian gf living with me here. We own land there as well. Outside of the main 3 cities, PP, SR an SHV is it very behind the times,

• you will not find any supermarkets selling western goods...

There are a number of places selling excellent Western grocery items!! In fact Phnom Penh is my preferred source, I buy western food items there to bring back to Thailand. Vastly better selection not to mention things like really good homemade mozzarella and ricotta....and things you simply cannot find in Thailand. To name just a few places:Thai HuotBayonplace on 240 I forget the name of, but great selection of cheeses, green awningThe deli attached to Le Duo restaurant (ricotta and mozzarella to die for, plus other Italian delights)... there's also a great shop for Indian foods and spices.

So you listed a couple cheeses...give me a break! There's much more to western grocery shopping than cheese and I visit Cambodia often and stay in the BKK1 area and been to the Lucky on Sihanouk and to say its anything like even my local foodland in Pattaya is utter non-sense. They maybe have 1/3 the stock of a Thai Foodland, let alone a place like a Tops Gourmet market...you are just completely wrong in your assessment of the availability and quality of western foodstuffs between PP and Thailand.

The cheeses at Central and villa and the wine connection are far mor varied than any in Cambodia. not to mentionmore selection and cuts of better meats and condiments availabe.

PLus the differnet beers and wines availabe here put Cambodia to shame

[ding]

I find begging seriously off-putting. I stopped with Mexico due to the pushiness. Chiang Mai had some very annoying flower kids continuously tapping on my shoulder at a restaurant table. The owner said there's nothing anyone can do. I never went back.

Do you have any thoughts on dealing with begging in Cambodia, if it really is that bad?

[Kaoboi Bebobp]

I find begging seriously off-putting. I stopped with Mexico due to the pushiness. Chiang Mai had some very annoying flower kids continuously tapping on my shoulder at a restaurant table. The owner said there's nothing anyone can do. I never went back.

Do you have any thoughts on dealing with begging in Cambodia, if it really is that bad?

You can reduce your begging exposure by staying out of the riverside eateries. That's where it's worst. However, like anywhere else, where foreigners gather, beggars are sure to follow. Generally though, they're not too aggressive so a head nod will send them away.

[phuketrichard]

I find begging seriously off-putting. I stopped with Mexico due to the pushiness. Chiang Mai had some very annoying flower kids continuously tapping on my shoulder at a restaurant table. The owner said there's nothing anyone can do. I never went back.

Do you have any thoughts on dealing with begging in Cambodia, if it really is that bad?

You can reduce your begging exposure by staying out of the riverside eateries. That's where it's worst. However, like anywhere else, where foreigners gather, beggars are sure to follow. Generally though, they're not too aggressive so a head nod will send them away.

stay out of any outdoor rests in snooky, the beggars outnumber the tourist at times

In PP i eat often noodle soup with gf an we are always approached by old ladies ( this is near Kandal market) while eating a bowl at least 4-5 will come by and hit every table which are 90% cambodians so its not like they target Barangs

[Sheryl]

As others have said, it very much depends on your lifestyle and specific locations you frequent.

i rarely encounter beggars in Cambodia, and then only in small numbers, but I do not frequent tourist-y areas, and I also usually eat in, and the restaurants I do frequent are all indoor places.

[watcharacters]

There are fabulous whole grain breads to be had in PP, ditto meats and cheeses, but you need to know where to go.

Great, i got you almost half of the way. Now let's cross the finish line: WHERE?....

Baron: Next time in Sakon try the bakery at the old bus station for some apple struddle. Make sure you're there before cos I vaccum the place if i m in town. Nonkhai ask the German baker. You will love it - his bread and other treats. In CM is a good German baker that even does Stollen during Christmas time. I dont want to hijack the thread with a long list of good places (especially as Sheryl still owes us the PP info on HER bakeries). Maybe the mods could add something like a bread sticky in the Thailand food section and we post our info there. This way the info would be easily available for all the hungry.

So SheryL where is the bread?

The Shop street 240 (also a branch in Tuol Kork)

Blue Pumpkin bakery

Delishop in the Intercontinental Hotel

Fresco (good multigrain bread)

Sisters All Day Breakfast Shop (they will do specialty breads to order) - near Russian Market

Madeleines Cafe-Restaurant-Bakery st 51 near ISPP

Comma a la Maison used to sell breads, haven't beenthere is ages so I don't know if they still do

Java I know has muffins & the like, not sure if bread

French bakery next to Savannah Mall

for Bagels only, Vego's

Deli in Le Duo restaurant for Italian bread (also great source for cheeses)

.

When it comes to "put up or shut up", per usual, I'd say Sheryl has certainly "put up".

Well done!

[Kitsune]

What about fruits and veg there ?

What is the quality (organic/full of pesticide)?

What is the variety compared to THL which is huge?

Prices?

Thanks

[Sheryl]

Fruits and veggies are plentiful. On balance I would say costs similiar to Thailand - some things a little more, some a little less, but no big difference.

Tons of pesticide used, as is also the case in Thailand. There are some sources now of organic produce in Phnom Penh and probably also in Siem Reap, but not a lot.

[baneko]

went to siem reap for a couple of days about a year ago

it was interesting (and sad) see how people live there

can't understand anyone choosing to live there unless they want to help the locals

Where did the sad part come in ?

it is like going back in time to the middle ages when most people were peasants with very basic lives comparable to modern house pets (except with less food and worse medical care)... to see fellow human beings lacking many of the basic human rights, security, comforts and pleasures most of us take for granted is really very sad

Its easy to think Thailand has money if you live in the tourist areas. Very poor to probably the level of Cambodia. My mate Lung Cham the rat catcher works to get some food and 1 guk of lao cao.

Sent from my GT-I9300T using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[oldthaihand99]

From the Lucky Supermarket facebook page that was posted there were many pics of items i assume the store sells. It included some from France which may not be available in Thailand.

Is the store located near the river front area in PP?

Do they or other stores there sell instant or quick cooking oats & boxes of tissues (kleenex or other brands)? Both Foodland & Villa Market supermarkets i've seen in Bangkok carry these. The convenience stores (7-11's & Family Marts) in BKK usually have the tissues.

I'm also wondering where, if possible, to buy sugarless yogurt & or probiotics in PP.

Re comparing Cambodia to Siam, one thing LOS lacks is legal casinos.

It's good to hear the bread options are favorable in PP. Thus far I've found they are only dreadful in Hanoi.

[Sheryl]

All the items you mention are easily sourced in PP.

Main Lucky market is not on the riverfront but also not too far from it - it is on Sihanouk Blvd a few blocks west of Independence Monument,. Has other branches but this is the main one.

Closer to the riverfront there is a "Pencil" store. Will likely have tissues, oats and probably also unsweetened yogurt - the latter (locally homemade) is found in the dairy section of most grocery stores. Also to be found at the small Sunshine market on St 57 near Khmer Surin restaurant.

Several good stores on St 240 esp. for imported cheese and the like. I find cheeses there i have never been able to find in Bangkok.

2 other stores you should get to know, though a bit further downtown: Thai Huot, on Monivong between Kampuchea Krom and the railway station, and Bayon on Russian Blvd just a short distance west of Mionivong.

Also don't miss the deli at Le Duo restaurant (homemade ricotta and mozzarella cheese that is superb).

Re probiotics other than yogurt (and kimchee, which is also widely available -- for locally homemade, try the Korean grocery on Sihanouk Blvd just west of Norodom) : Biooflor and Lacteol are available at U-Care and other pharmacies

[Kaoboi Bebobp]

It's been said before but you will have to hit several stores to collect everything you want. Pencil on St. 214, I believe, just west off Norodom, has a lot of that stuff you want. Then I would rate the larger Bayon next, then the smaller Thai Huot (some things are cheaper here than at Lucky). I think I've never been to the main Lucky on Sihanouk. Anyway, what Sheryl said.

[Sheryl]

There is also a Pencil branch on Sothereas near riverfront. A little smaller grocery-wise than the main St 214 branch but more more convenient for those in riverfront area.

[phuketrichard]

is it only me or.

Seems many of you all like Cambodia more than Thailand cause of the avilabilty of western goods?

why did you move?

[Kaoboi Bebobp]

This is hardly news, but the great missing element in Cambodia is proper medical care. Full stop. However, if Royal Phnom Penh Hospital, a branch of Bangkok Hospital Medical Centre, proves itself, then I just may return.

And I do prefer Cambodia over Thailand for many reasons, some of which would not be discussable in a public forum on Thailand.

[mike2011]

The Bangkok group is not shy about pricing in Thailand. In Cambodia they are just mad. 20 US registration fee (meaning xeroxing your passport and entering the data) plus 200 US upfront before even seeing a doctor....

Since this is not about Thailand and no libel charges will apply: They simply rip off people as they like.

Aside from their dubious ethics, the basic problem is after all how to afford their services assuming that they would be good (which I do not based on experiences with them in a country close to Cambodia).

Last week I had a good dose of Vietnamese beef soup - difficult to find or not available in Thailand. Dim Sum was also good and way cheaper than Thailand.

Another item that speaks for Cambodia is that banking seems to be easier with some banks and fees lower than in Thailand. Downside: No insurance for deposits if I am correctly informed.

Also higher interest rates on US$ in Cambodia.

This aspect might make some difference for expats.

[Sheryl]

Yes, medical care is probably the single greatest drawback and especially of concern for retirees.

Current consensus seems to be that Sen Sok Hospital is the best hospital facility but for best doctor in a given specialty, they are usually practicing out of their homes and not in any one location and you really have to know whom to seek out. For anything serious, definitely have to leave the country. Also for anything other than minor surgery, even for something as simple as a hernia repair, cannot get it done in accordance with best standards there.

There's a reason so many Cambodians are to be found in the halls and waiting rooms of Thai and Vietnamese hospitals...and they aren't all rich, either, plenty of ordinary middle class ones gosbroad for all their medical care. Basically, anyone who can.

[seasia]

Hi

Probably an impossible question to answer but are there any views as to how quickly Cambodia medical/hospital facilities are improving?

How long might it take to catch up with Thailand ?

Their economy seems to be coming on well, I saw a brief video clip of a South East Asia financial commentator and he did say that foreign firms are increasingly looking to invest there.

This article from World Bank is also positive

"Cambodia’s economy grew rapidly, at more than 8 percent per year, between 2004 and 2012"............

http://www.worldbank.org/en/country/cambodia/overview

Also how do Vietnam`s medical facilities compare to Thailand ?

[Tomtomtom69]

farang are barely tolerated [in Thailand]

Nonsense. If you're barely tolerated in Thailand, you're not going to be transformed into a real charmer by moving to another location and you probably weren't all that well-loved wherever you were before coming to Thailand.

True, but I think the OP's point is that "farang" or let's just use the more politically correct term "foreigners" are just accepted in Thailand, nothing more. I get the impression that many Thais think "oh no, not another foreigner!" when they see us, and there aren't many smiles anymore (outside of the tourist areas of course, where foreigners are expected).

I agree that the Khmers are friendlier than the Thais and many people I've met who've travelled to Thailand, especially first time travellers have said the same thing. That isn't to say that the Thais aren't friendly per se, but foreigners certainly aren't a novelty anymore anywhere in Thailand, like they must once have been. Case in point, in my moo baan, the guards are friendly and so are some of the shopkeepers in the local shops, but my neighbors have never once said hello to me, or any one of their other neighbors. When I first came, I was expecting people to invite me into their homes or engage in some chit chat, but that's never happened. However, when I lived in China (yes China, which is considered by many foreigners to be not so foreigner friendly) I got plenty of smiles and some local residents of where I lived would even engage me in light conversation. That has never happened anywhere I have lived in Thailand - everybody keeps to themselves. Unless I were to initiate the conversation, there is no reaction from a Thai unless it's a childish "hello" or something screeched out by a ladyboy or some half drunk university student.

It does help immensely if you speak Thai, which I do...in which case there will always be a much livelier reception. However, while the Khmers may appreciate you speaking their language even more than Thais, they are genuinely friendly and eager to have a chat with you irrespective of whether you can only speak English or can speak a little of their language. In Thailand, I find that happens either only when 1) you initiate the conversation and/or 2) you are introduced to somebody by someone you know, who generally already knows a little about you from that mutual friend.

[Tomtomtom69]

Hi

Probably an impossible question to answer but are there any views as to how quickly Cambodia medical/hospital facilities are improving?

How long might it take to catch up with Thailand ?

Their economy seems to be coming on well, I saw a brief video clip of a South East Asia financial commentator and he did say that foreign firms are increasingly looking to invest there.

This article from World Bank is also positive

"Cambodia’s economy grew rapidly, at more than 8 percent per year, between 2004 and 2012"............

http://www.worldbank.org/en/country/cambodia/overview

Also how do Vietnam`s medical facilities compare to Thailand ?

In 2012, I became sick in Nha Trang, Vietnam (was only a minor illness) but caused so much anxiety I had to finish my work contract 2 weeks early - problem was I didn't know what I had hence the anxiety. The local hospital and clinic were both hopeless. Even the supposedly best local doctor at the clinic who was French trained wasn't good enough to figure out that all I was suffering in the end was anxiety and nothing else. On my way back to Thailand, I passed through Phnom Penh and went to the SOS clinic. Not only was it 5-10 times more expensive than any private hospital in Thailand (or even back home) but the French doctor there wasn't that much better than the guy in Vietnam. He was just a much nicer guy who did treat his patients with respect, not just as a number like the guy in Nha Trang did.

There is however a very good hospital in Ho Chi Minh, called FV Hospital, with a number of French doctors on staff. I received very good treatment when I went there and the price was modest. Of course my travel insurance normally covers everything, but at the time I had neglected to renew my policy so I was out of pocket but luckily it wasn't too expensive.

So to summarize, Vietnam is good if you stick to Ho Chi Minh, Da Nang and Hanoi for medical treatment and only go to the better private hospitals - smaller cities and rural areas are only acceptable for very minor issues (cuts, bruises, the sniffles etc.) Cambodia is improving (go to the Rattanak hospital affiliated with Bangkok Hospital) in Phnom Penh, Siem Reap or Sihanoukville. Anywhere else and you can forget about it - absolutely hopeless. Cambodia will probably take about 15-20 years to catch up with Thailand in terms of medical facilities. Many richer local Khmers from PP even travel to Ho Chi Minh or Bangkok for medical treatment when whatever they have can't be adequately treated at home.

[timewilltell]

went to siem reap for a couple of days about a year ago

it was interesting (and sad) see how people live there

can't understand anyone choosing to live there unless they want to help the locals

Where did the sad part come in ?

it is like going back in time to the middle ages when most people were peasants with very basic lives comparable to modern house pets (except with less food and worse medical care)... to see fellow human beings lacking many of the basic human rights, security, comforts and pleasures most of us take for granted is really very sad

Were you talking about Cambodia, Thailand or both?

Sent from my iPad using ThaiVisa app

[seasia]

Hi

Probably an impossible question to answer but are there any views as to how quickly Cambodia medical/hospital facilities are improving?

How long might it take to catch up with Thailand ?

Their economy seems to be coming on well, I saw a brief video clip of a South East Asia financial commentator and he did say that foreign firms are increasingly looking to invest there.

This article from World Bank is also positive

"Cambodia’s economy grew rapidly, at more than 8 percent per year, between 2004 and 2012"............

http://www.worldbank.org/en/country/cambodia/overview

Also how do Vietnam`s medical facilities compare to Thailand ?

In 2012, I became sick in Nha Trang, Vietnam (was only a minor illness) but caused so much anxiety I had to finish my work contract 2 weeks early - problem was I didn't know what I had hence the anxiety. The local hospital and clinic were both hopeless. Even the supposedly best local doctor at the clinic who was French trained wasn't good enough to figure out that all I was suffering in the end was anxiety and nothing else. On my way back to Thailand, I passed through Phnom Penh and went to the SOS clinic. Not only was it 5-10 times more expensive than any private hospital in Thailand (or even back home) but the French doctor there wasn't that much better than the guy in Vietnam. He was just a much nicer guy who did treat his patients with respect, not just as a number like the guy in Nha Trang did.

There is however a very good hospital in Ho Chi Minh, called FV Hospital, with a number of French doctors on staff. I received very good treatment when I went there and the price was modest. Of course my travel insurance normally covers everything, but at the time I had neglected to renew my policy so I was out of pocket but luckily it wasn't too expensive.

So to summarize, Vietnam is good if you stick to Ho Chi Minh, Da Nang and Hanoi for medical treatment and only go to the better private hospitals - smaller cities and rural areas are only acceptable for very minor issues (cuts, bruises, the sniffles etc.) Cambodia is improving (go to the Rattanak hospital affiliated with Bangkok Hospital) in Phnom Penh, Siem Reap or Sihanoukville. Anywhere else and you can forget about it - absolutely hopeless. Cambodia will probably take about 15-20 years to catch up with Thailand in terms of medical facilities. Many richer local Khmers from PP even travel to Ho Chi Minh or Bangkok for medical treatment when whatever they have can't be adequately treated at home.

Hi

Many Thanks for your answer, interesting.

Regarding your comment on China in the previous post, although I have not lived there, I used to visit fairly regularly I also found the people to be friendly, had interest from and help from total strangers at times and it certainly wasn`t about financial reward.

I had considered moving there, years ago but life has taken a different route, for now anyway.

Thanks.

[mike2011]

I think one should make a distinction between private health care and public in Cambodia. Public healthcare depends mainly on foreign donations and I consider the public hospitals to be nothing more than a source of deadly infections. When I needed to see a doctor a tuktuk driver dropped me off at a public hospital. The stench kept me out. In the West this place would be considered a detention facility left from the last war.

Private hospitals: You have the local private ones, places like foreign clinics that are comparably cheap but not good (see the Korean in SR), and then the grand ripp off like the Bangkok group. As told earlier 220 US upfront in cash or cc to talk to a doctor. No treatment included. Do some online research on their SR hospital and you might come to the conclusion that they are not much better than any other private clinic. Nice surroundings do not indicate competence.

Bottom line: I doubt that there will be reliable treatement for a serious illness within the next 10 years let alone emergency procedures.

I have seen Thai provincial hospitals that were well-equipped to deal with more or less all major issues. In case of cancer and heart problems one would certainly prefer are more specialized place though the local provincial hospital might just be such a place. No need to hope for anything remotely ressembling this in Cambodia.

The major conflict to be considered is whether risking a hospital infection in Cambodia or risking the trip out of the country. The variables involved in such a calculation are almost countless.

[Kaoboi Bebobp]

For contrast, the fact I could interview five public and private hospitals in the Bangkok area for my serious but treatable condition and the fact I had three or four other recommendations in hand I didn't get to, whereas not one single hospital in Phnom Penh could deal with it, says it all about Cambodia medical "standards."

[Sheryl]

You risk a lot more than just an infection in Cambodian hospitals (and doctors in outpatient setting). Speaking from very long experience -- both personal and professional -- the odds of wrong diagnosis and wrong treatment are 80-90%. There are a few -- very few -- decent specialists scattered about but you have to know who they are and where to find them, and they will usually be working without proper facilities or equipment.

An additional and very major concern is complete lack of medical ethics. Any Khmer will tell you that it is a given that doctors will intentionally make you sicker to get more money and this is, unfortunately, often true. They will also intentionally lie about your condition, propose unnecessary treatments, even do "fake"surgeries just to get money. I have not seen the like of ti anywhere else in the world.

Progerss is very slow in these respects (and in the last respect mentioned, it is zero). Extreme caution should be exercised in obtaining medical care in Cambodia and it is almost always preferrably to leave the country if possible -- which is excalty what Khmers who can afford it, do.

I might add that the price of care -- even in government hospitals, soemtimes especially in them -- is extremely high, usually higher than in Thailand. So going abroad is often no more costly, can veen be cheaper even after factoring in the travel costs.