Two dead after Phuket bus crashes on Patong Hill

[LivinginKata]

I would be willing to bet that the angle of the slope into Patong is beyond these buses manufactures recommended limits when loaded.

Agreed - all these drivers say (after the accident) oh the brakes did not work. When the reality is that the bus was going too fast, going out of control, and the brakes are not designed for that condition.

Just today I was observing many coaches driving style. I saw one coming down Patak Road into Kata (just at the bend at Kata School) and the speed and angle of sway was alarming. Thought it might tip over. Another bus on the Karon to Patong road was clearly driving far too fast on a downhill section. I can see that no lessons have been learned with the 2 deaths.

[MK1]

I would be willing to bet that the angle of the slope into Patong is beyond these buses manufactures recommended limits when loaded.

Agreed - all these drivers say (after the accident) oh the brakes did not work. When the reality is that the bus was going too fast, going out of control, and the brakes are not designed for that condition.

Just today I was observing many coaches driving style. I saw one coming down Patak Road into Kata (just at the bend at Kata School) and the speed and angle of sway was alarming. Thought it might tip over. Another bus on the Karon to Patong road was clearly driving far too fast on a downhill section. I can see that no lessons have been learned with the 2 deaths.

So the time when the bus driver lost-control over the bus is when the brakes failed, but if I may ask, from an engineering aspect, what typically operates the brakes on buses like these is it mechanical or air-pressure controlled?

[andreandre]

I would be willing to bet that the angle of the slope into Patong is beyond these buses manufactures recommended limits when loaded.

Agreed - all these drivers say (after the accident) oh the brakes did not work. When the reality is that the bus was going too fast, going out of control, and the brakes are not designed for that condition.

Just today I was observing many coaches driving style. I saw one coming down Patak Road into Kata (just at the bend at Kata School) and the speed and angle of sway was alarming. Thought it might tip over. Another bus on the Karon to Patong road was clearly driving far too fast on a downhill section. I can see that no lessons have been learned with the 2 deaths.

So the time when the bus driver lost-control over the bus is when the brakes failed, but if I may ask, from an engineering aspect, what typically operates the brakes on buses like these is it mechanical or air-pressure controlled?

Brakes are typically air pressure activated on modern buses,and have dual systems for back up and is generally very reliable .Brake failure in modern ,maintained vehicles is quite rare [except it seems in LOS}

All these drivers who claim ''brake failure'' are obviously as we know not trained in even the most basic operating skills and using this as an excuse for their own shortcomings.

In fact what is actually happening in the majority of cases is called brake fade, caused mainly by relying only on the brakes when descending hills [and at excessive speed]..the brakes overheat rapidly and the friction surfaces overheat and glaze and dont grip as they should.

The first thing to do on starting a descent in a bus or heavy truck is to select a low enough gear that will hold the vehicle at a safe speed, 2nd is use of exhaust brakes if fitted and then use light braking to give added control to speed.

I was taught to use on descent, whatever gear you would be in to climb the same road..2nd gear needed to go up means 2nd gear to come down,,easy!

Edited December 30, 2013 by andreandre

[MK1]

I would be willing to bet that the angle of the slope into Patong is beyond these buses manufactures recommended limits when loaded.

Agreed - all these drivers say (after the accident) oh the brakes did not work. When the reality is that the bus was going too fast, going out of control, and the brakes are not designed for that condition.

Just today I was observing many coaches driving style. I saw one coming down Patak Road into Kata (just at the bend at Kata School) and the speed and angle of sway was alarming. Thought it might tip over. Another bus on the Karon to Patong road was clearly driving far too fast on a downhill section. I can see that no lessons have been learned with the 2 deaths.

So the time when the bus driver lost-control over the bus is when the brakes failed, but if I may ask, from an engineering aspect, what typically operates the brakes on buses like these is it mechanical or air-pressure controlled?

Brakes are typically air pressure activated on modern buses,and have dual systems for back up and is generally very reliable .Brake failure in modern ,maintained vehicles is quite rare [except it seems in LOS}

All these drivers who claim ''brake failure'' are obviously as we know not trained in even the most basic operating skills and using this as an excuse for their own shortcomings.

In fact what is actually happening in the majority of cases is called brake fade, caused mainly by relying only on the brakes when descending hills [and at excessive speed]..the brakes overheat rapidly and the friction surfaces overheat and glaze and dont grip as they should.

The first thing to do on starting a descent in a bus or heavy truck is to select a low enough gear that will hold the vehicle at a safe speed, 2nd is use of exhaust brakes if fitted and then use light braking to give added control to speed.

I was taught to use on descent, whatever gear you would be in to climb the same road..2nd gear needed to go up means 2nd gear to come down,,easy!

Thanks for your response. So rather than selecting a low-range gear on steep hill decent, these drivers prefer to ride the brake on & off which in turn perhaps constantly uses up, in the end, all available air-pressure, generator can’t keep up to refill reserve air pressure tank because the driver is riding the brake, then tank pressure eventually becomes empty which can also consequently cause the brake to not operate or potentially as you put it 'brake fade'... Then if true, the root cause may not be actual brake failure, in the real sense, and Bus companies should perhaps improve the design, such as the capacity of air-pressure tanks for this particular purpose or alternatively train drivers correctly to use low gear selection on steep hills, etc, to avoid repeat occurrences?

Edited December 30, 2013 by MK1

[andreandre]

Brakes are typically air pressure activated on modern buses,and have dual systems for back up and is generally very reliable .Brake failure in modern ,maintained vehicles is quite rare [except it seems in LOS}

All these drivers who claim ''brake failure'' are obviously as we know not trained in even the most basic operating skills and using this as an excuse for their own shortcomings.

In fact what is actually happening in the majority of cases is called brake fade, caused mainly by relying only on the brakes when descending hills [and at excessive speed]..the brakes overheat rapidly and the friction surfaces overheat and glaze and dont grip as they should.

The first thing to do on starting a descent in a bus or heavy truck is to select a low enough gear that will hold the vehicle at a safe speed, 2nd is use of exhaust brakes if fitted and then use light braking to give added control to speed.

I was taught to use on descent, whatever gear you would be in to climb the same road..2nd gear needed to go up means 2nd gear to come down,,easy!

Thanks for your response. So rather than selecting a low-range gear, these drivers prefer to ride the brake on & off which in turn perhaps constantly uses up, in the end, all available air-pressure, generator can’t keep up to refill reserve air pressure tank because the driver is riding the brake, then tank pressure eventually becomes empty which consequently causes the brake to not operate or as you put it 'brake fade'.. Then if true, the root cause is not actual brake failure in the real sense and Bus companies need to improve design capacity of air-pressure tanks or alternatively trained drivers to use low gear selection to avoid repeat occurrences?

Not quite...the drivers, by not using the lower gear to control the speed are relying heavily on the brakes alone..tho not on and off..believe me and i've done it,[once, when i had a bus jump out of gear] you/they are not on and off the brake..you are standing on that brake pedal with all your might, which only makes the brakes heat up more and fade more..this is what brake fade is..like they're fading away to absolutely no stopping power at all!!

The air is supplied by a compressor run by the engine and is stored in tanks as you say to keep a back up supply of air at all times..even if the engine or compressor fail you still have a good reserve of air.so . no , its not the capacity or design that is the problem..its 100% driver training, or lack of , and to some degree, no doubt,maintenance issues and also by the driver that these tanks should be drained daily of water that builds up...

.

On reflection, maybe these drivers are not telling lies, as they have indeed had "brake failure" but don't realise that they are the cause of it by their own actions and is not a mechanical failure as one would read into it.

[MK1]

Brakes are typically air pressure activated on modern buses,and have dual systems for back up and is generally very reliable .Brake failure in modern ,maintained vehicles is quite rare [except it seems in LOS}

All these drivers who claim ''brake failure'' are obviously as we know not trained in even the most basic operating skills and using this as an excuse for their own shortcomings.

In fact what is actually happening in the majority of cases is called brake fade, caused mainly by relying only on the brakes when descending hills [and at excessive speed]..the brakes overheat rapidly and the friction surfaces overheat and glaze and dont grip as they should.

The first thing to do on starting a descent in a bus or heavy truck is to select a low enough gear that will hold the vehicle at a safe speed, 2nd is use of exhaust brakes if fitted and then use light braking to give added control to speed.

I was taught to use on descent, whatever gear you would be in to climb the same road..2nd gear needed to go up means 2nd gear to come down,,easy!

Thanks for your response. So rather than selecting a low-range gear, these drivers prefer to ride the brake on & off which in turn perhaps constantly uses up, in the end, all available air-pressure, generator can’t keep up to refill reserve air pressure tank because the driver is riding the brake, then tank pressure eventually becomes empty which consequently causes the brake to not operate or as you put it 'brake fade'.. Then if true, the root cause is not actual brake failure in the real sense and Bus companies need to improve design capacity of air-pressure tanks or alternatively trained drivers to use low gear selection to avoid repeat occurrences?

Not quite...the drivers, by not using the lower gear to control the speed are relying heavily on the brakes alone..tho not on and off..believe me and i've done it,[once, when i had a bus jump out of gear] you/they are not on and off the brake..you are standing on that brake pedal with all your might, which only makes the brakes heat up more and fade more..this is what brake fade is..like they're fading away to absolutely no stopping power at all!!

The air is supplied by a compressor run by the engine and is stored in tanks as you say to keep a back up supply of air at all times..even if the engine or compressor fail you still have a good reserve of air.so . no , its not the capacity or design that is the problem..its 100% driver training, or lack of , and to some degree, no doubt,maintenance issues and also by the driver that these tanks should be drained daily of water that builds up...

.

On reflection, maybe these drivers are not telling lies, as they have indeed had "brake failure" but don't realise that they are the cause of it by their own actions and is not a mechanical failure as one would read into it.

A very interesting and informative explanation…thank you.

[beowolf2012]

maybe he got flat wheels?

I myself have been involved in a bus where the rear wheel axlen of broken along
the bus driver was good to stop in time, so there was no compounding problems other scars we had to wait for another bus

[Buckeye21]

I lived just off a street on Patong hill, just before Sea Pearl Villa as you enter Patong. I had to make right hand turns with cars, trucks and buses flying down the hill. It scared me each time I had to make that turn.