Should Thailand tax junk food to help fight obesity?

[mogandave]

You're in the sticks. Fine. Thailand has become much more urbanized and no doubt this is linked to obesity.

I thought it was the rice (not urbanization) that was making them all fat, and that taxing the rice was going to have a significant effect on reducing obesity.

I guess you were making that up as well huh?

I never said that only rice policies would be a magic bullet here. In fact, I have said the opposite, I don't think it is really possible to change Thai taste for white rice. Who is making stuff up here, you or me? Please desist with your personal attack campaign and focus on the actual topic, Kay?

You attic me all the way through the thread, and now you want to play the victim? Typical.

My only point has been that your rice tax is regressive, and that it will not work. Kay?

[namdocmai]

Many farang have never seen fat Thai kids? Then come out of the woods and look around in the big Apple aka BKK, i almost don't see slim kids here. They always get what they want, have many computers, no friends.

[Jingthing]

...

My only point has been that your rice tax is regressive, and that it will not work. Kay?

Offering BROWN rice cheaper would be populist, not regressive. Would Thais just pay the extra for the white rice? Probably. So maybe rice can't be addressed but that doesn't mean that there aren't government regulations not related to rice that couldn't be done in Thailand and work to some degree. I have never said once this is only about rice. The specifics of regulations are something that needs to be worked on, tested, and proven effective or not. RATIONALLY.

For a start, how about making all transfats in ALL commercial foods illegal? That's a no brainer.

How about legal mandated clear package info about health factors in commercially processed food? Why not?

Edited January 2, 2014 by Jingthing

[mogandave]

...

My only point has been that your rice tax is regressive, and that it will not work. Kay?

Offering BROWN rice cheaper would be populist, not regressive. Would Thais just pay the extra for the white rice? Probably. So maybe rice can't be addressed but that doesn't mean that there aren't government regulations not related to rice that couldn't be done in Thailand and work to some degree. I have never said once this is only about rice. The specifics of regulations are something that needs to be worked on, tested, and proven effective or not. RATIONALLY.

For a start, how about making all transfats in ALL commercial foods illegal? That's a no brainer.

How about legal mandated clear package info about health factors in commercially processed food? Why not?

We are off topic now. Any number of things might help, but this thread is about taxing junk food.

I am against regressive taxes and submit they will hurt the poor and benefit the rich. You seem to think anything is worth trying, I do not. While doing anything rather then nothing may make one feel better, more often then not it does more harm than good.

Offering brown rice cheaper? I assume the plan would be for the government to subsidize rice farmers that agree to produce brown rice. While this will make brown rice cheaper, it will drive up the price of white rice. So the poor suffer, and the rich get richer from subsidies, and no one gets any healthier, except all the hogs feeding on excess brown rice.

Isn't nutritional information already available on processed food? Are you talking about every food cart in the county displaying nutritional information or what? Do you honestly think people that fat people are fat due to a lack of knowledge?

I said early on in the thread that I believed that obesity is generally related to being more affluent and sedentary, I think you agree with this, yet you are still ready to tax the rice, knowing it will more than likely do nothing.

[Jingthing]

I have explained MULTIPLE times this thread is NOT only about tax. Sorry, as the OP, I think I do have the right to CLARIFY and yes widen the breadth of the INTENTION of the thread. Maybe reread the thread if you missed that. If you can't accept that, I'm sorry.

I am not married to the rice idea so please don't OBSESS over it. I am for anything that can WORK. I can see good arguments against messing with rice, but that hardly means -- do NOTHING about ANYTHING.

On labeling I'm only talking about commercial foods, not street foods. I don't think the labeling is adequate and clear. You have to have a lot of knowledge to figure out the tricks behind how things are labelled IF they are labeled. Bread is almost never labelled at all in Thailand. Yes, basic stuff CLEARLY including clues as to DANGER levels. Additional cost? Yes. Does additional obesity NOT cost?

I see plenty of VERY POOR urbanized obese Thais in Pattaya so NO I do not believe obesity and wealth are directly linked in Thailand or anywhere. It may be that the poor become obese in different ways with different foods than the wealthy, but the result is the same. Perhaps policies need to be looked at more closely in the ways it impacts different classes.

Edited January 2, 2014 by Jingthing

[mogandave]

I have explained MULTIPLE times this thread is NOT only about tax. Sorry, as the OP, I think I do have the right to CLARIFY and yes widen the breadth of the INTENTION of the thread. Maybe reread the thread if you missed that. If you can't accept that, I'm sorry.

I am not married to the rice idea so please don't OBSESS over it. I am for anything that can WORK. I can see good arguments against messing with rice, but that hardly means -- do NOTHING about ANYTHING.

On labeling I'm only talking about commercial foods, not street foods. I don't think the labeling is adequate and clear. You have to have a lot of knowledge to figure out the tricks behind how things are labelled IF they are labeled. Bread is almost never labelled at all in Thailand. Yes, basic stuff CLEARLY including clues as to DANGER levels. Additional cost? Yes. Does additional obesity NOT cost?

I see plenty of VERY POOR urbanized obese Thais in Pattaya so NO I do not believe obesity and wealth are directly linked in Thailand or anywhere. It may be that the poor become obese in different ways with different foods than the wealthy, but the result is the same. Perhaps policies need to be looked at more closely in the ways it impacts different classes.

Okay, we agree taxing rice is a bad idea.

[up-country_sinclair]

I have explained MULTIPLE times this thread is NOT only about tax.

Then why is the thread titled, "Should Thailand tax junk food to help fight obesity"? I don't know how anyone could argue that this thread isn't specifically about tax. It's as nonsensical as stating that this thread isn't specifically about Thailand. Or that it isn't about junk food, or it isn't about fighting obesity.

Edited January 2, 2014 by up-country_sinclair

[Jingthing]

I have explained MULTIPLE times this thread is NOT only about tax.

Then why is the thread titled, "Should Thailand tax junk food to help fight obesity"? I don't know how anyone could argue that this thread isn't specifically about tax. It's as nonsensical as stating that this thread isn't specifically about Thailand. Or that it isn't about junk food, or it isn't about fighting obesity.

Because I explained later that the topic should be broadened to be about MULTIPLE kinds of government mandated policies to combat obesity. Not limited to tax. The emphasis on tax was an ERROR which I later decided to correct. Read the link in the OP for some global examples. Again, I'm the OP. I can define the intention of the thread -- you can't. If you don't like it, you don't have to participate.

Edited January 2, 2014 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

I have explained MULTIPLE times this thread is NOT only about tax. Sorry, as the OP, I think I do have the right to CLARIFY and yes widen the breadth of the INTENTION of the thread. Maybe reread the thread if you missed that. If you can't accept that, I'm sorry.

I am not married to the rice idea so please don't OBSESS over it. I am for anything that can WORK. I can see good arguments against messing with rice, but that hardly means -- do NOTHING about ANYTHING.

On labeling I'm only talking about commercial foods, not street foods. I don't think the labeling is adequate and clear. You have to have a lot of knowledge to figure out the tricks behind how things are labelled IF they are labeled. Bread is almost never labelled at all in Thailand. Yes, basic stuff CLEARLY including clues as to DANGER levels. Additional cost? Yes. Does additional obesity NOT cost?

I see plenty of VERY POOR urbanized obese Thais in Pattaya so NO I do not believe obesity and wealth are directly linked in Thailand or anywhere. It may be that the poor become obese in different ways with different foods than the wealthy, but the result is the same. Perhaps policies need to be looked at more closely in the ways it impacts different classes.

Okay, we agree taxing rice is a bad idea.

Probably. However I would like to see policies to nudge people to eat brown rice more. I don't know exactly how but it seems to me in the realm of human possibility. You might not think that is a desirable goal. I do.

[David48]

Brown Rice (of which I am a fan in moderation ... suits some foods, not others) I'm fairly sure is also identified as 'Prison Rice' ^*... thus associated with an unsavoury situation, thus would require a generational change to identify Brown Rice with a 'healthy' lifestyle rather then a 'repugnant' one.

I eat to live and enjoy life ... not live to eat a dogmatic diet.

^* Can anyone confirm the 'Prison Rice' analogy?

.

[Jingthing]

I find half-milled rice to be a good compromise. To me and I think most people, it's not bad. Try it, you might like it, again, I really wish it was on offer at Thai restaurants.

I think some Thai elites have become aware of the benefits (and good flavor) of brown and half milled more so, but that doesn't translate to the masses and there doesn't appear to be ANY effort to promote this to the masses.

Yes I agree it would take a major social change in Thailand for brown (or half milled) to be the common thing.

Rice might be one of the "third rails" of Thai culture and such a change might not be realistic.

I'm just saying if it is possible, it would be worthwhile.

I also love food very much but for a healthy long life you've got to find a balance.

http://health.gaeatimes.com/2010/04/27/brown-rice-may-cut-risk-of-heart-disease-high-bp-22161/

Rice hardly represents the big picture of the growing obesity epidemic in Thailand. Too bad this thread seems to have stalled on that one thing.

http://www.livestrong.com/article/281183-brown-rice-weight-loss/

Weight Loss Benefits

A 12-year Harvard School of Public Health study that followed 74,000 nurses found that women who ate whole-grains like brown rice not only helped prevent weight gain, but also led to lower body weights. Although many weight-loss diets are based on low levels of carbohydrate foods like rice, whole-grain foods like brown rice have a low glycemic index, meaning that your body digests them more slowly and has fewer spikes in blood sugar levels, according to the Harvard School of Public Health. Whole grains also contain high levels of fiber that can help with satiety and make you feel full longer.

Edited January 2, 2014 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

An interesting comment related to Thailand's obesity:

According to WHO statistics, Thailand has the second largest number of obese people in Southeast Asia despite the traditional and generally healthy diet of rice, fish, chicken and vegetables in the country. This food mix has not disappeared but is seriously threatened by the availability of snacks and "convenience" food. It should also be noted that Thais, along with other Asian nations, prefer higher-calory white rice as opposed to the more healthy brown types.

http://investvine.com/malaysians-most-obese-in-southeast-asia/

[David48]

Hey, JT ... could you ... ?

Edited January 2, 2014 by David48

[wooloomooloo]

JT - congratulations on this thread propelling you towards 48,000 posts.

Anyway, you've gone from taxing food to forcing brown rice down our throats because you don't think it's too bad.

You've either seriously lost the plot or just playing the audience to increase post count. I reckon the latter.

As for the poll, I'm not in favour of being taxed for others corpulence. I don't have to justify my dietary intake to you or any government.

I take regular exercise and eat what I want. I'll never be fat.

Your long walk down Beach Road yesterday probably saved some baht bus driver two years worth of wear and tear to his vehicle with you aboard. Should I approach your next driver and settle a few thousand baht on your behalf for wearing out his suspension and brakes before time?

Your argument is now very weak.

[Jingthing]

Hey, JT ... could you ... ?

Could I what, dear?

Be Godfather to your twins? Is that what you're trying to ask?

Edited January 2, 2014 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

JT - congratulations on this thread propelling you towards 48,000 posts.

Anyway, you've gone from taxing food to forcing brown rice down our throats because you don't think it's too bad.

You've either seriously lost the plot or just playing the audience to increase post count. I reckon the latter.

As for the poll, I'm not in favour of being taxed for others corpulence. I don't have to justify my dietary intake to you or any government.

I take regular exercise and eat what I want. I'll never be fat.

Your long walk down Beach Road yesterday probably saved some baht bus driver two years worth of wear and tear to his vehicle with you aboard. Should I approach your next driver and settle a few thousand baht on your behalf for wearing out his suspension and brakes before time?

Your argument is now very weak.

What a pile of silliness.

1. Post count. Who cares? Do posts earn cash? If so, where do I collect? OK, you got me. I'm on a quota system. If I don't meet my post count, Master whips me.

2. Force brown rice? Who said that? Yes, I think it would be good to find a way to promote it's benefits at the very least. Do you not understand the benefits compared to the detrimental effects of white rice? Junk crap food is HEAVILY promoted and rather horribly -- to CHILDREN who if they become obese from those products are statistically mostly stuck as obese for life. That's tragic. Why NOT promote a super healthy food like brown (more realistically half milled) rice at LEAST as much?

3. Your poll vote is duly counted. It's just a poll question to relate to discussion. Did I ever suggest that you personally need to justify your personal diet to me or any government? Where do you get this stuff? This seems to indicate an extreme paranoia that is totally unfounded in any reality. If Thailand's government, such as it is in crisis now, does ANYTHING about this it would be very surprising. Ideally of course, as I've indicated multiple times, taxation is not the only potential tool in the governmental regulation box. There are lots of options worthy of consideration.

4. Happy for your fortunate situation regarding your food intake, exercise, and lack of risk for developing obesity. Sadly, much of the world is not in the same boat.

5. The baht bus stuff is just personality crap. Ignore.

OK, I knew from the start this was a controversial subject. Look what happened to Mayor Bloomberg over the super size soda issue. But these issues aren't going away, I can assure everyone. As the global obesity pandemic escalates, more and more governments will really be forced into action. Maybe better for Thailand to start on this before they compete with Mexican levels of obesity. But the smart money is they won't do a thing.

Edited January 2, 2014 by Jingthing

[David48]

Hey, JT ... could you ... ?

Could I what, dear?

Be Godfather to your twins? Is that what you're trying to ask?

JT, no need to be a smart-ass about it.

I asked you very politely to unblock me from your PM's

I removed that comment out of respect to you.

The comment stayed there for an hour over 2 posts, so I know you saw it.

[Jingthing]

Hey, JT ... could you ... ?

Could I what, dear?

Be Godfather to your twins? Is that what you're trying to ask?

JT, no need to be a smart-ass about it.

I asked you very politely to unblock me from your PM's

I removed that comment out of respect to you.

The comment stayed there for an hour over 2 posts, so I know you saw it.

Folks, for the record, I most certainly did NOT see that comment. Dude, please be careful before you publicly post such rude accusations without KNOWING you are correct. Because you aren't. Cheers.

Edited January 2, 2014 by Jingthing

[David48]

.

Jingthing ... you are indeed a unique and colourful member here ...

.

[Jingthing]

.

Jingthing ... you are indeed a unique and colourful member here ...

.

Please desist. Again, your accusation was false.

[SebD]

I don't agree with income tax so am probably the best person to ask.

I believe in "pay as you go/use".

So:

Tax on fruit and vegetables = zero (or as near as dammit).

Bread, pasta and the like = 5%

Tax on burgers (etc) = 100%

You can work out the rates between those for yourselves, I'm guessing.

Tax on Ferrari's, Faberge Eggs, Oil Paintings, Caviar and Private Medicare = 200% (they can and will still pay it).

No more tax except for what you CHOOSE to spend your earnings on.

Job done.

Edited January 2, 2014 by SebD

[mogandave]

...

Weight Loss Benefits

A 12-year Harvard School of Public Health study that followed 74,000 nurses found that women who ate whole-grains like brown rice not only helped prevent weight gain, but also led to lower body weights. Although many weight-loss diets are based on low levels of carbohydrate foods like rice, whole-grain foods like brown rice have a low glycemic index, meaning that your body digests them more slowly and has fewer spikes in blood sugar levels, according to the Harvard School of Public Health. Whole grains also contain high levels of fiber that can help with satiety and make you feel full longer.

Just because there is a correlation between women that eat whole-grains does not mean that eating whole-grains is going to result in weight loss.

Do you think that Thais generally do not know whole grain rice is healthier than white rice?

[mogandave]

An interesting comment related to Thailand's obesity:

... despite the traditional and generally healthy diet of rice, fish, chicken and vegetables in the country.

I guess WHO does not know how unhealthy white rice is, maybe you should tell them.

[mogandave]

UK rationing was introduced cos there was not enough food to go around. Nooooooooooothing to do with with the gov being intrusive, just plain practicality. And guess what, the populous became fit.

In any case no government is going to do that short of a famine or wartime, so it's only of academic interest.

Aren't taxes a form of rationing?

[ToddWeston]

I changed my vote to "don't care" simply because every time this topic comes up it's never about solutions to obesity. We're forced to believe this is an epidemic/pandemic and if we dare suggest will power, exercise and proper eating is a means to control ones weight we are taking so far into the weeds I lose interest rapidly.

As for taxing junk food why not, I'd also like to tax people who wear Lycra and Crocs.

On the topic of brown rice in the prison system the term is used because of the colour of the water it's cooked in.

[SebD]

UK rationing was introduced cos there was not enough food to go around. Nooooooooooothing to do with with the gov being intrusive, just plain practicality. And guess what, the populous became fit.

In any case no government is going to do that short of a famine or wartime, so it's only of academic interest.

Aren't taxes a form of rationing?

Yes.

Before a few generations have passed we are either all eating rice or all eating caviar (or, even better, a combination of the two).

Why should it be otherwise?

"Birthright"....I don't...ermm...thinks so,...

...Do you?

Edited January 3, 2014 by SebD

[samran]

UK rationing was introduced cos there was not enough food to go around. Nooooooooooothing to do with with the gov being intrusive, just plain practicality. And guess what, the populous became fit.

In any case no government is going to do that short of a famine or wartime, so it's only of academic interest.

Aren't taxes a form of rationing?

Seems like your fellow anti tax traveller transam has no issue with government controlling huge swaths food food economy, but massive issues with government on a targeted focused impost on unhealthy foods which produce a cost for the rest of society.

Meanwhile fellow flat earther neversure harks for days gone where there weren't the list of taxes he produced, but these were also the same glory days where the marginal income tax rates on the highest income earners were north of 70%.

Like I said repeatedly, you guys make out like you are all anti government when in fact, you are just anti government where you can't get your snouts in the trough.

[transam]

UK rationing was introduced cos there was not enough food to go around. Nooooooooooothing to do with with the gov being intrusive, just plain practicality. And guess what, the populous became fit.

In any case no government is going to do that short of a famine or wartime, so it's only of academic interest.

Aren't taxes a form of rationing?

Seems like your fellow anti tax traveller transam has no issue with government controlling huge swaths food food economy, but massive issues with government on a targeted focused impost on unhealthy foods which produce a cost for the rest of society.

Meanwhile fellow flat earther neversure harks for days gone where there weren't the list of taxes he produced, but these were also the same glory days where the marginal income tax rates on the highest income earners were north of 70%.

Like I said repeatedly, you guys make out like you are all anti government when in fact, you are just anti government where you can't get your snouts in the trough.

Thats a little harsh.............

[samran]

Thats a little harsh.............

But you know I love ya mate Edited January 3, 2014 by samran

[mogandave]

UK rationing was introduced cos there was not enough food to go around. Nooooooooooothing to do with with the gov being intrusive, just plain practicality. And guess what, the populous became fit.

In any case no government is going to do that short of a famine or wartime, so it's only of academic interest.

Aren't taxes a form of rationing?

Seems like your fellow anti tax traveller transam has no issue with government controlling huge swaths food food economy, but massive issues with government on a targeted focused impost on unhealthy foods which produce a cost for the rest of society.

Meanwhile fellow flat earther neversure harks for days gone where there weren't the list of taxes he produced, but these were also the same glory days where the marginal income tax rates on the highest income earners were north of 70%.

Like I said repeatedly, you guys make out like you are all anti government when in fact, you are just anti government where you can't get your snouts in the trough.

Wow, another attack that does nothing to address the topic being discussed. You guys are nothing if not predictable.