People's uprising about to reach 'critical mass': Thai opinion

[Trouble]

I, personally, strongly resent that my taxes are wasted on populist policies that for the most part aren't even benefiting those they are supposedly aimed at.

This is a key issue, which perhaps is not highlighted sufficiently. Putting it slightly differently, a large section of the metropolitan middle and upper classes oppose redistributive social policies, including the early TRT policies such as the universal coverage healthcare scheme and the village loan funds, because they perceive that their tax monies are going to support a part of the population they perceive to be undeserving of such assistance. They would like to halt what they believe is a long term trend that will erode their position, but cannot muster the votes to elect their preferred government. However, to achieve this end they are willing to use extra-constitutional means, as they did in 2006.

Since you are interested in this, you might want to understand further:

http://robinlea.com/pub/JCA-Thailand-the_good_coup/03-Thaksins_populism.html

This is from Pasuk and Baker. It is long, really long, but it explains where Thaksin was coming from when he started his so called populist policies.

http://robinlea.com/pub/JCA-Thailand-the_good_coup/03-Thaksins_populism.html

Great articles and are logical and well thought out. If one looks at what has happened in the United States under the Obama administration one can see parallels to what happened under the Thaksin government. There is no doubt that under Obama there has been an enormous increase in funding and increasing social programs and increasing the length of unemployment funding during the economic recession. The blatant references to the haves and have nots in America during the election campaign are attempts to separate the people into groups and blame one group for the ills of the other. The attempts as solving the immigration dilemma in the United States is not to solve the problem of the ongoing immigration first but to give amnesty to those who have basically violated the law and then do nothing to solve future immigration problems. It really all boils down to a type of vote buying that Thaskin is chastised by many for undertaking. It has taken place in most European states as well as an attempt to appeal to the more undedicated and poorer segment of societies. It is like keeping the masses pacified by giving them something. Unfortunately what will ultimately happen is a large majority will continue to rely on such subsidies and place greater burden on the systems. This is why no matter what reforms Suthep and his imagined Council would like to put in place will ultimately fail in an election. Like it or not, while the articles may not be completely without bias there is enough perspective there to put a chronology on events to see how Thaksin and his party evolved. I don't think that logically speaking the articles are too far off from how things actually developed. As to criticism of the references cited in the article I fail to understand why there seems to be an opinion of bias. The author is simply citing references the support his thesis. Please cite articles with an opposing thesis.

[MAJIC]

Suthep accountants must be very busy, filling out payee list of protesters @ 300 baht per day, plus health and life insurance. I wonder how many come from the South and how many really come from Bangkok will be the hard core protesters and not just weekend warriors.

The last time I saw Suthep supporters on Television they were giving him huge amounts of money,they couldn't bag up quick enough, so yes his accountants will be busy!

Edited January 3, 2014 by MAJIC

[SebD]

As an aside, I consider the OP "news" cutting to be somewhat politically biased.

Is there such a thing as a politically independent English language national newspaper or news service in Thailand that anyone can point me to, please?

Thanks in advance.

[Yunla]

yes but THEY are so few when compared to the 60m Thais - that's the Chang in the room

only an election will show how many 'THEY'S' there are... right???

putting a few hundred thousand THEY"S on the street and extrapolating that to equal ALL of Thailand citizens is a foolish nonsense and you know it

This is the core problem re; Suthep's Assembly, it is not about the "down with the Shinawatras, blow your whistle for freedom!" stuff which is all a nice bit of street theatre from where I'm standing, this is about the potential for a huge agrarian/factory-worker backlash. Bribed or not, this is a real danger.

Also the fact that Suthep has already said he would banish an entire family from the nation, they are associated by name and thus banished for that alone. Suthep himself has some questions over his law-abiding nature, yet he feels his new Assembly Council thingy should have the power to eject families and people they deem criminals, regardless of the fact that the Assembly members may well be criminals too. This would be a step backwards in itself, as Govt is not a legal body, and Govt targeting specific brackets of citizens (including families) outside of the legal system, is the truly soot-stained hearth of totalitarianism.

[SebD]

yes but THEY are so few when compared to the 60m Thais - that's the Chang in the room

only an election will show how many 'THEY'S' there are... right???

putting a few hundred thousand THEY"S on the street and extrapolating that to equal ALL of Thailand citizens is a foolish nonsense and you know it

This is the core problem re; Suthep's Assembly, it is not about the "down with the Shinawatras, blow your whistle for freedom!" stuff which is all a nice bit of street theatre from where I'm standing, this is about the potential for a huge agrarian/factory-worker backlash. Bribed or not, this is a real danger.

Also the fact that Suthep has already said he would banish an entire family from the nation, they are associated by name and thus banished for that alone. Suthep himself has some questions over his law-abiding nature, yet he feels his new Assembly Council thingy should have the power to eject families and people they deem criminals, regardless of the fact that the Assembly members may well be criminals too. This would be a step backwards in itself, as Govt is not a legal body, and Govt targeting specific brackets of citizens (including families) outside of the legal system, is the truly soot-stained hearth of totalitarianism.

Couldn't have put it better (in fact probably couldn't have put it at all, so succinctly).

Whatever your affiliations, surely everyone agrees that the Suthep style of totalitarianist regime is retrograde and harmful to both individual dissenter and humanity, simultaneously.

Lock the beast up IMHO.

[hellodolly]

Democracy at its finest. Well done The Nation!

Why should they relinquish power just because some failed, corrupt politician who can't win an election decides they should.

February 2nd sunshine. One person one vote...get involved!

As long as you are playing the quote things that sound good but in practice hurt the country why not make a sensible suggestion.

You know like one person one informed vote.

Thailand finds itself in this mess because they do not allow sensible votes. This is the fault of this and all previous governments the last thing they want is an informed voter. Hence the lack of education.

Just ask Thaksin it has worked for him for the last 12 years.

[hellodolly]

yes but THEY are so few when compared to the 60m Thais - that's the Chang in the room

only an election will show how many 'THEY'S' there are... right???

putting a few hundred thousand THEY"S on the street and extrapolating that to equal ALL of Thailand citizens is a foolish nonsense and you know it

This is the core problem re; Suthep's Assembly, it is not about the "down with the Shinawatras, blow your whistle for freedom!" stuff which is all a nice bit of street theatre from where I'm standing, this is about the potential for a huge agrarian/factory-worker backlash. Bribed or not, this is a real danger.

Also the fact that Suthep has already said he would banish an entire family from the nation, they are associated by name and thus banished for that alone. Suthep himself has some questions over his law-abiding nature, yet he feels his new Assembly Council thingy should have the power to eject families and people they deem criminals, regardless of the fact that the Assembly members may well be criminals too. This would be a step backwards in itself, as Govt is not a legal body, and Govt targeting specific brackets of citizens (including families) outside of the legal system, is the truly soot-stained hearth of totalitarianism.

Also the fact that Suthep has already said he would banish an entire family from the nation,

source please?

[hellodolly]

yes but THEY are so few when compared to the 60m Thais - that's the Chang in the room

only an election will show how many 'THEY'S' there are... right???

putting a few hundred thousand THEY"S on the street and extrapolating that to equal ALL of Thailand citizens is a foolish nonsense and you know it

This is the core problem re; Suthep's Assembly, it is not about the "down with the Shinawatras, blow your whistle for freedom!" stuff which is all a nice bit of street theatre from where I'm standing, this is about the potential for a huge agrarian/factory-worker backlash. Bribed or not, this is a real danger.

Also the fact that Suthep has already said he would banish an entire family from the nation, they are associated by name and thus banished for that alone. Suthep himself has some questions over his law-abiding nature, yet he feels his new Assembly Council thingy should have the power to eject families and people they deem criminals, regardless of the fact that the Assembly members may well be criminals too. This would be a step backwards in itself, as Govt is not a legal body, and Govt targeting specific brackets of citizens (including families) outside of the legal system, is the truly soot-stained hearth of totalitarianism.

Couldn't have put it better (in fact probably couldn't have put it at all, so succinctly).

Whatever your affiliations, surely everyone agrees that the Suthep style of totalitarianist regime is retrograde and harmful to both individual dissenter and humanity, simultaneously.

Lock the beast up IMHO.

As I have said before in 6 years membership you have been relatively silent. Now all of a sudden you come out with a barrage of posts that in effect say leave the Shinawatra's alone.

What brought this on?

[SebD]

yes but THEY are so few when compared to the 60m Thais - that's the Chang in the room

only an election will show how many 'THEY'S' there are... right???

putting a few hundred thousand THEY"S on the street and extrapolating that to equal ALL of Thailand citizens is a foolish nonsense and you know it

This is the core problem re; Suthep's Assembly, it is not about the "down with the Shinawatras, blow your whistle for freedom!" stuff which is all a nice bit of street theatre from where I'm standing, this is about the potential for a huge agrarian/factory-worker backlash. Bribed or not, this is a real danger.

Also the fact that Suthep has already said he would banish an entire family from the nation, they are associated by name and thus banished for that alone. Suthep himself has some questions over his law-abiding nature, yet he feels his new Assembly Council thingy should have the power to eject families and people they deem criminals, regardless of the fact that the Assembly members may well be criminals too. This would be a step backwards in itself, as Govt is not a legal body, and Govt targeting specific brackets of citizens (including families) outside of the legal system, is the truly soot-stained hearth of totalitarianism.

Couldn't have put it better (in fact probably couldn't have put it at all, so succinctly).

Whatever your affiliations, surely everyone agrees that the Suthep style of totalitarianist regime is retrograde and harmful to both individual dissenter and humanity, simultaneously.

Lock the beast up IMHO.

As I have said before in 6 years membership you have been relatively silent. Now all of a sudden you come out with a barrage of posts that in effect say leave the Shinawatra's alone.

What brought this on?

Seeing Thailand threatened by a potentially unelected autocratic regime is one reason.

There are more (but that should be enough for most right-minded folk).

Why do you care?

Why are you stalking me?

Your point is......?

PS. Hardly what I'd call "a barrage" by the way (you should see me in full flow)

Edited January 4, 2014 by SebD

[jayboy]

As an aside, I consider the OP "news" cutting to be somewhat politically biased.

Is there such a thing as a politically independent English language national newspaper or news service in Thailand that anyone can point me to, please?

Thanks in advance.

No there is not.In the English language press there is a clear editorial tendency to extreme reaction and the old order and against the government though to be fair there are occasional guest contributions which provide an alternative viewpoint.Some of the Nation key staff contributors (Thanong,Kavi etc) seem blind to reality.

There is for little or no coverage of developments which don't fit in with the Suthep narrative, eg the latest New York Times report

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/04/world/asia/thailand.html?_r=1&

[hellodolly]

The idea of 1 person 1 vote as an electoral panacea to Thailand ills is far to simplistic - both sides have been shown that with sufficient financial backing that this ideal is easily manipulated and corrupted.

And that is part of the problem, democracy or rather our western concept of democracy, for whatever multitude of reasons is a corrupted, broken system. It doesn't work here or at least not yet. Thai politicians simply have found a way to cheat the system and eventually the system fails and breaks as people get bored with the cheating and politicians who have become bigger and more important than the democratic system they claim to support, when in fact they actually run and control our democracy.

I'm not condoning Suthep but it seems there are two choices; maintain the current broken and corrupted democratic system. Or dismantle it and rebuild it and start again. And I'm sure all of us have our own views on what the possible consequences of each will be.

Maybe in 20 years Thailand will have matured enough and we will look back on the past 10 years as a period of 'growing pains for Thailand's democracy.

Edit - spelling

So what do you propose to replace democracy with ?

Replacing democracy is the wrong question.There needs to be some serous tweaking with the system. Starting with the MPs

I would start with abolishing immunity for MPs. Why do MPs need immunity? Immunity attracts dishonesty and criminality as it provides protection for their actions which often subvert the course of justice. MP - our leaders - should not need immunity as they act to uphold the law in spirit and action.

Next do some serious legal amendment to the 'defamation' law. Often used as a weapon to silence critics whilst MP hid from behind their castle of parliamentary immunity. - I can hit you legally but you can't hit me back so to speak

Next - Freedom of speech in all aspects, so the media is free in all aspects from political interference and political censorship. So journalists can investigate our MPs and report back to the people/

Finally - Freedom of information - So MP and governments can hid information from the public under vague 'national security' banners.

The bigger issues of health, education,distribution of wealth etc all need addressing in good time

Most problems occur as MP are untouchable once into office and can do what they want. By the time the law catches up with them most of the evidence has been lost, destroyed, forgotten or bribed away and so they can continue. Which they do by cheating democratic system at election time with ridiculous promises, which they are them free to get away with as they are immune, don't need to provide information for, can sue you for defamation if you so something slightly out of sync with their view and so the circus continues until it reaches breaking point as it does with regular frequency.

So keep democracy, just changes the rules of the game for the MP we vote in so they understand their performance can and will be checked and they will be held to public account and scrutiny with real and meaningful sanctions. No hiding behind immunity.

All that and scrap the Party List BS. The worst use of the crony-rewarding political patronage system.

Making the MP's individually accountable is a big step towards actual proper governance.

Then have a double election like France does.

Election 1;

All the parties run against each other, if one gets 50.x % they get the seat,

if not 50% or more, then

Election 2

Where the top 2 winning parties go head to head with the whole country voting ONLY between them,

on a race by race basis.

Excellent ideas. The government should protect the people from the criminals. Not protect the criminals from the people.

I believe in the French system the only thing they boil down to two is who will be the Premiere. They can still wind up like the States has with more representatives from one party in the house than the party the President is from.

When it comes to Democracy this is true democracy or as close as we are going to get it. It can work as a great check and balance system.

[MrSlatersParrot]

The reason behind this movement has really always been an emotionally charged one - the disgust over Thaksin's iron grip on the affairs of this country for his own personal gain. There is no sector of Thai society that is unaware of that, or even denies it, albeit privately. But it has become so pervasive it has essentially strangled the administration, with rampant corruption that it can no longer hold or even contain. It is just spilling out all over the place. It is collapsing from within. The people have never felt empowered to deal with the machinations of administrative power. It has mainly been a passive resignation. Passivity has been Thaksin's greatest asset. But the amnesty bill changed all that. And the people are discovering - much to their surprise - that they had the power to express themselves all along. And they are jubilant with that new-found power.

I wonder if you were in Bangkok in 2010 when the re shirts were rallying in Si

Strangely, the people I speak with are far from jubilant as you put it. they may not like Thaksin but they can't abide Suthep and loather what he stands for.They are enraged by being blackmailed by the minority of protesters planning to stop them going about their business.

Obviously you are speaking to the wrong peoples.... speak to some tax-payers.. you certainly do not live in Bangkok..

Yes, I do not know anyone in the office where I work (Bangkok) that disagrees with what Suthep stands for. They may not like him as a person (I don't like him either), but they despise what PTP, under Thaksin, is doing to the country. Often when protests are held at lunch time they are out there on Silom Road with the other protesters. Even my neighbours, those that I have spoken to about politics, want Thaksin out of the picture as they believe he is the puppet master behind all the policies that are bringing the country to its knees.

I, personally, strongly resent that my taxes are wasted on populist policies that for the most part aren't even benefiting those they are supposedly aimed at.

I wonder if you were in Silom in 2010 when the red shirts were rallying there outside the Bangkok bank cheered on by the office workers?

I somehow doubt it.

Are you a Johnny come lately?

The global financial ruin didn't affect you?

Martial law not a problem?

Life firing zones in Silom and sathon just a nuisance?

What I remember was all the <deleted> bankers clearing off. The guys with their clip boards on the street. The analists with their laptops strapped to their backs they all ran off

[Tatsujin]

I thought Suthep cancelled 2014 because his demands weren't met.

He's kicking out the PM/shutting down BKK/Threatening children and failing at all these things and pretending he's actually winning.

What a tool.

One minor correction, the threat to her son was bogus, her side made it up.

[SebD]

As an aside, I consider the OP "news" cutting to be somewhat politically biased.

Is there such a thing as a politically independent English language national newspaper or news service in Thailand that anyone can point me to, please?

Thanks in advance.

No there is not.In the English language press there is a clear editorial tendency to extreme reaction and the old order and against the government though to be fair there are occasional guest contributions which provide an alternative viewpoint.Some of the Nation key staff contributors (Thanong,Kavi etc) seem blind to reality.

There is for little or no coverage of developments which don't fit in with the Suthep narrative, eg the latest New York Times report

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/04/world/asia/thailand.html?_r=1&

Thank you.

I anticipated as much (same goes in most countries, I guess).

You saved me a heck of a time searching and filtering, though.

Thanks again.

[Ricardo]

This is the core problem re; Suthep's Assembly, it is not about the "down with the Shinawatras, blow your whistle for freedom!" stuff which is all a nice bit of street theatre from where I'm standing, this is about the potential for a huge agrarian/factory-worker backlash. Bribed or not, this is a real danger.

Also the fact that Suthep has already said he would banish an entire family from the nation, they are associated by name and thus banished for that alone. Suthep himself has some questions over his law-abiding nature, yet he feels his new Assembly Council thingy should have the power to eject families and people they deem criminals, regardless of the fact that the Assembly members may well be criminals too. This would be a step backwards in itself, as Govt is not a legal body, and Govt targeting specific brackets of citizens (including families) outside of the legal system, is the truly soot-stained hearth of totalitarianism.

"they are associated by name and thus banished for that alone"

I suspect this might be more true, if there weren't so many S-clan members & close-friends, high up on PTP's party-list.

They choose to join the PTP-bandwagon, and can therefore expect to suffer the consequences, as well as enjoy the benefits ?

Yingluck & Chalerm & Suthep all have their own versions of roughly the same thing, some sort of reform-the-constitution body, unfortunately I can't really see any obvious person who all sides would trust, to run this & then get it validated by a national-referendum, and then ensure that new elections were run.

And who would take care of the day-to-day running-of-the-country meanwhile ?

Perhaps the caretaker-DM might ask the generals, to solve this apparent problem, for her ?

[hellodolly]

This is the core problem re; Suthep's Assembly, it is not about the "down with the Shinawatras, blow your whistle for freedom!" stuff which is all a nice bit of street theatre from where I'm standing, this is about the potential for a huge agrarian/factory-worker backlash. Bribed or not, this is a real danger.

Also the fact that Suthep has already said he would banish an entire family from the nation, they are associated by name and thus banished for that alone. Suthep himself has some questions over his law-abiding nature, yet he feels his new Assembly Council thingy should have the power to eject families and people they deem criminals, regardless of the fact that the Assembly members may well be criminals too. This would be a step backwards in itself, as Govt is not a legal body, and Govt targeting specific brackets of citizens (including families) outside of the legal system, is the truly soot-stained hearth of totalitarianism.

Couldn't have put it better (in fact probably couldn't have put it at all, so succinctly).

Whatever your affiliations, surely everyone agrees that the Suthep style of totalitarianist regime is retrograde and harmful to both individual dissenter and humanity, simultaneously.

Lock the beast up IMHO.

As I have said before in 6 years membership you have been relatively silent. Now all of a sudden you come out with a barrage of posts that in effect say leave the Shinawatra's alone.

What brought this on?

Seeing Thailand threatened by a potentially unelected autocratic regime is one reason.

There are more (but that should be enough for most right-minded folk).

Why do you care?

Why are you stalking me?

Your point is......?

I care because I care for Thailand. I am retired and have nothing to gain financially no matter which way it goes except for the exchange rate. Which may stay the same when the eventual winner is announced.

I learned long ago that if you want to make an omelet you have to break eggs. So it is with breaking a nepotistic self serving government led by a convicted criminal who through his own choice refuses to live in the country he rules.

You seem to glibly over look the part that what Suthep is proposing is a temporary thing not a permanent thing and has points in the constitution allowing it. I am not following you just happen to take an interest in topics that seek to make Thailand a better place. You I see follow them to try and maintain the status qua where one family rules and if they don't have a family member for the job they buy some one to fill it. They are also led by a convicted criminal who refuses to live in the country he rules. It is a matter of his personal choice. Thailand would welcome him home.

Once again I say why all of a sudden the interest. As you can see Thailand is going down hill and becoming easier to buy. the following chart will help you to understand the direction Thailand is going in. It is becoming even easier to buy than it was when the PTP took over.

http://cpi.transparency.org/cpi2013/results/

It is very precise on how much the country has slid down hill under the Shinawatra's. When in 2 and 1/2 years you go from being 37% honest to 35% honest it would seem to indicate it is time for a change. Unless your goal is to overtake North Korea and Somalia in corruption.

[MrSlatersParrot]

This is the core problem re; Suthep's Assembly, it is not about the "down with the Shinawatras, blow your whistle for freedom!" stuff which is all a nice bit of street theatre from where I'm standing, this is about the potential for a huge agrarian/factory-worker backlash. Bribed or not, this is a real danger.

Also the fact that Suthep has already said he would banish an entire family from the nation, they are associated by name and thus banished for that alone. Suthep himself has some questions over his law-abiding nature, yet he feels his new Assembly Council thingy should have the power to eject families and people they deem criminals, regardless of the fact that the Assembly members may well be criminals too. This would be a step backwards in itself, as Govt is not a legal body, and Govt targeting specific brackets of citizens (including families) outside of the legal system, is the truly soot-stained hearth of totalitarianism.

Couldn't have put it better (in fact probably couldn't have put it at all, so succinctly).

Whatever your affiliations, surely everyone agrees that the Suthep style of totalitarianist regime is retrograde and harmful to both individual dissenter and humanity, simultaneously.

Lock the beast up IMHO.

As I have said before in 6 years membership you have been relatively silent. Now all of a sudden you come out with a barrage of posts that in effect say leave the Shinawatra's alone.

What brought this on?

Seeing Thailand threatened by a potentially unelected autocratic regime is one reason.

There are more (but that should be enough for most right-minded folk).

Why do you care?

Why are you stalking me?

Your point is......?

I care because I care for Thailand. I am retired and have nothing to gain financially no matter which way it goes except for the exchange rate. Which may stay the same when the eventual winner is announced.

I learned long ago that if you want to make an omelet you have to break eggs. So it is with breaking a nepotistic self serving government led by a convicted criminal who through his own choice refuses to live in the country he rules.

You seem to glibly over look the part that what Suthep is proposing is a temporary thing not a permanent thing and has points in the constitution allowing it. I am not following you just happen to take an interest in topics that seek to make Thailand a better place. You I see follow them to try and maintain the status qua where one family rules and if they don't have a family member for the job they buy some one to fill it. They are also led by a convicted criminal who refuses to live in the country he rules. It is a matter of his personal choice. Thailand would welcome him home.

Once again I say why all of a sudden the interest. As you can see Thailand is going down hill and becoming easier to buy. the following chart will help you to understand the direction Thailand is going in. It is becoming even easier to buy than it was when the PTP took over.

http://cpi.transparency.org/cpi2013/results/

It is very precise on how much the country has slid down hill under the Shinawatra's. When in 2 and 1/2 years you go from being 37% honest to 35% honest it would seem to indicate it is time for a change. Unless your goal is to overtake North Korea and Somalia in corruption.

Of course as you say suthep's plan is only for a temporary suspension of democracy. Only a temporary thing.

Until he gets rid of all the undesirables.

Would that include all liberals?

A kind of pol pot solution but we'll pack your bags and send you by Thai ( fill up the planes) to a destination of your choice type of solution?

Close down the country and do a little redistribution in the meantime.

Corruption? Crickey! Send for the tanks!

Let's deal with those greedy farmers and all their Kwai kin up there.

Oh really!

[HerIndoors]

The long awaiting uprising and eviction of clan Shinawat by the masses looks to be well underway. It took longer than I expected for them to realize that the clan are not Robin Hoods, just robbin barstewards. It will prove to be a trying few months as the old red elite and establishment is forced to step aside and the cookie jar lid is slammed shut. They will not take it easily, and lives will be lost, but in a few years time we will all look back on this period and be grateful to those that gave up their time(and even lives) to benefit democracy and the future of Thailand.

I have booked to play 18 holes at Alpine today, might as well enjoy it while we can. The stolen 1,000 rai will almost certainly be handed back to the Buddhist temple from which the clan stole it.

Jaidam, Jaidam Jaidam ...get a life ..... I absolutely love your logic.... 'and be grateful to those that gave up their time(and even lives) to benefit democracy and the future of Thailand'. So..you recon the only way to the path to democracy is to illegally throw out a democratically elected government. Brilliant piece of thinking.

[tezzainoz]

Yet another delusional, borderline hysterical piece from The Nation. Will they ever stop with the gross exaggerations, half-truths, deceit, obfuscation, manipulation? This is meant to be a newspaper with some reasonable sense of balance and proportion, even in an op-ed piece, rather than a full on rant giving a very lop-sided view of the situation. Not worth the paper its written on. God forbid that anyone would actually ever buy the rag.

Please Note:

Yinglucks Cabinet and Pheu - Thai members of parliment announces they they will not accept the rulings of the Constitutional Court

Under Democratic Principles

When the government of any country fails to obey the rules of law, or the countries constitution

No Government can claim to be a legitimate democratic Government

For those that think that any government that comes to office through an election is a legitimate Democratic Government, then sorry you have no idea what a

TRUE DEMOCRATIC GOVERNMENT IS

[tezzainoz]

The real story

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQVjUsKSKUE#t=614

[jayboy]

The real story

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQVjUsKSKUE#t=614

A propaganda piece which fails at the first hurdle by repeating lies about the numbers involved in the protests "maybe the biggest in the modern world" - 6 million on December 22 apparently.The reality is the numbers never exceeded 200,000.It gets worse with the usual mantra of uneducated rural people perverting the democratic process.I get the same message from the nice but silly old Chinese Thai grannies who are my neighbours.The underlying reasons for the current hysteria are never mentioned.

Any intelligent person would simply shrug at this nonsense.So the question remains.What exactly is the intended audience or is it just preaching to the converted?

[binjalin]

Far too many in vain attempts to spin this as so much ado about Suthep,

and so little ado about the people actually getting out in huge numbers to protest, lead by Suthep and many others.

This is far more than about one man and his cronies, going after another to remove him from power.

But the only way to make it seem less 'the will of the people' fed up with a 'failing regime of criminal intent',

and more an 'elitists power play, is to focus on Suthep as nutcase, or crony, or vengeful, etc, etc.

Gee I wonder who would benefit from making Suthep look bad, and label all in the rally crony opportunists?

Oh yes, the other sides Thaksin-crony opportunists. Suthep could call to the people all he wanted to,

but they wouldn't come unless THEY wanted to...

yes but THEY are so few when compared to the 60m Thais - that's the Chang in the room

only an election will show how many 'THEY'S' there are... right???

putting a few hundred thousand THEY"S on the street and extrapolating that to equal ALL of Thailand citizens is a foolish nonsense and you know it

60 million Thais are not voters.

One voter typically represents 2-3 other people.

Just as active protestors in large numbers also

represent those at home who could not go to protest.

This group, just like the parliament, represents other Thais by less formal proxy.

In these terms their representative reach is a significant block,

And that dear friends is why the Shin government on the ropes,

is taking them seriously. Even if you aren't.

fair enough

protesters x 3 = 600,000

PTP voters x 3 = 45m

[dukebowling]

Please Note:

Yinglucks Cabinet and Pheu - Thai members of parliment announces they they will not accept the rulings of the Constitutional Court

Under Democratic Principles

When the government of any country fails to obey the rules of law, or the countries constitution

No Government can claim to be a legitimate democratic Government

For those that think that any government that comes to office through an election is a legitimate Democratic Government, then sorry you have no idea what a

TRUE DEMOCRATIC GOVERNMENT IS

The constitution is pretty clear about amendments:

CHAPTER XV

Amendment of the Constitution

Section 291. An amendment of the Constitution may be made under the rules and procedures as follows:

(1) a motion for amendment must be proposed by the Council of Ministers, members of the House of Representatives of not less than one-fifth of the total number of the existing members of the House of Representatives or members of both Houses of not less than one-fifth of the total number of the existing members thereof or persons having the right to vote of not less than fifty thousand in number under the law on lodging a petition for

introducing the law;

A motion for amendment which has the effect of changing the democratic regime of government with the King as Head of the State or changing the form of the State shall be prohibited;

(2) a motion for amendment must be proposed in the form of a draft Constitution Amendment and the National Assembly

shall consider it in three readings;

(3) the voting in the first reading for acceptance in principle shall be by roll call and open voting, and the amendment must be approved by votes of not less than one-half of the total ~ 172 ~ number of the existing members of both Houses;

(4) the consideration in the second reading section by section shall also be subject to a public hearing participated by persons having the right to vote, who have proposed the draft Constitution Amendment; The voting in the second reading for consideration

section by section shall be decided by a simple majority of votes

(5) at the conclusion of the second reading, there shall be an interval of fifteen days after which the National Assembly

shall proceed with its third reading;

(6) the voting in the third and final reading shall be by roll call and open voting, and its promulgation as the Constitution must

be approved by votes of more than one-half of the total number of the existing members of both Houses;

(7) after the resolution has been passed in accordance with the rules and procedures hitherto specified, the draft Constitution Amendment shall be presented to the King, and the provisions of section 150 and section 151 shall apply mutates mutandis.

No where does it say the amendment has to be reviewed by the Constitutional court. Therefore, this ruling is not applicable and should not be considered.

[hellodolly]

This is the core problem re; Suthep's Assembly, it is not about the "down with the Shinawatras, blow your whistle for freedom!" stuff which is all a nice bit of street theatre from where I'm standing, this is about the potential for a huge agrarian/factory-worker backlash. Bribed or not, this is a real danger.

Also the fact that Suthep has already said he would banish an entire family from the nation, they are associated by name and thus banished for that alone. Suthep himself has some questions over his law-abiding nature, yet he feels his new Assembly Council thingy should have the power to eject families and people they deem criminals, regardless of the fact that the Assembly members may well be criminals too. This would be a step backwards in itself, as Govt is not a legal body, and Govt targeting specific brackets of citizens (including families) outside of the legal system, is the truly soot-stained hearth of totalitarianism.

Couldn't have put it better (in fact probably couldn't have put it at all, so succinctly).

Whatever your affiliations, surely everyone agrees that the Suthep style of totalitarianist regime is retrograde and harmful to both individual dissenter and humanity, simultaneously.

Lock the beast up IMHO.

As I have said before in 6 years membership you have been relatively silent. Now all of a sudden you come out with a barrage of posts that in effect say leave the Shinawatra's alone.

What brought this on?

Seeing Thailand threatened by a potentially unelected autocratic regime is one reason.

There are more (but that should be enough for most right-minded folk).

Why do you care?

Why are you stalking me?

Your point is......?

I care because I care for Thailand. I am retired and have nothing to gain financially no matter which way it goes except for the exchange rate. Which may stay the same when the eventual winner is announced.

I learned long ago that if you want to make an omelet you have to break eggs. So it is with breaking a nepotistic self serving government led by a convicted criminal who through his own choice refuses to live in the country he rules.

You seem to glibly over look the part that what Suthep is proposing is a temporary thing not a permanent thing and has points in the constitution allowing it. I am not following you just happen to take an interest in topics that seek to make Thailand a better place. You I see follow them to try and maintain the status qua where one family rules and if they don't have a family member for the job they buy some one to fill it. They are also led by a convicted criminal who refuses to live in the country he rules. It is a matter of his personal choice. Thailand would welcome him home.

Once again I say why all of a sudden the interest. As you can see Thailand is going down hill and becoming easier to buy. the following chart will help you to understand the direction Thailand is going in. It is becoming even easier to buy than it was when the PTP took over.

http://cpi.transparency.org/cpi2013/results/

It is very precise on how much the country has slid down hill under the Shinawatra's. When in 2 and 1/2 years you go from being 37% honest to 35% honest it would seem to indicate it is time for a change. Unless your goal is to overtake North Korea and Somalia in corruption.

Of course as you say suthep's plan is only for a temporary suspension of democracy. Only a temporary thing.

Until he gets rid of all the undesirables.

Would that include all liberals?

A kind of pol pot solution but we'll pack your bags and send you by Thai ( fill up the planes) to a destination of your choice type of solution?

Close down the country and do a little redistribution in the meantime.

Corruption? Crickey! Send for the tanks!

Let's deal with those greedy farmers and all their Kwai kin up there.

Oh really!

Well I do admit Suthep can be theatrical and possibly have said ship them out of the country physically.

If he made it I am sure the intent was politically not physically. I also believe that it should not apply to as yet unborn Shinawatra's. Who knows their could be a good apple in the barrel if you search long enough for it.

It has not been made clear to me by all the PTP fans what they want to do other than have an election and more than likely reelect Yingluck with less support from the PTP. Maybe even need another small party to give them the necessary votes to rule. In other words these supporters are saying every thing is fine with the PTP nothing needs changing in the government. I disagree. So far Suthep is the only one to come forth with a plan. One that from what I have read is constitutional. If it is not we are going to continue on the down ward spiral to match North Korea and Somalia in corruption.

I would still like to hear the comment in the whole context it was made in. It is way to easy to crucify some one with statements taken out of context. I do not believe he is the man to lead the nation or the council if it ever comes to pass. Nor if as in all likely hood Yingluck is qualified to lead the one she talks about after she is elected. That is not a statement that means I believe her to be a good leader just what I fear yet believe will happen.

[hellodolly]

Please Note:

Yinglucks Cabinet and Pheu - Thai members of parliment announces they they will not accept the rulings of the Constitutional Court

Under Democratic Principles

When the government of any country fails to obey the rules of law, or the countries constitution

No Government can claim to be a legitimate democratic Government

For those that think that any government that comes to office through an election is a legitimate Democratic Government, then sorry you have no idea what a

TRUE DEMOCRATIC GOVERNMENT IS

The constitution is pretty clear about amendments:

CHAPTER XV

Amendment of the Constitution

Section 291. An amendment of the Constitution may be made under the rules and procedures as follows:

(1) a motion for amendment must be proposed by the Council of Ministers, members of the House of Representatives of not less than one-fifth of the total number of the existing members of the House of Representatives or members of both Houses of not less than one-fifth of the total number of the existing members thereof or persons having the right to vote of not less than fifty thousand in number under the law on lodging a petition for

introducing the law;

A motion for amendment which has the effect of changing the democratic regime of government with the King as Head of the State or changing the form of the State shall be prohibited;

(2) a motion for amendment must be proposed in the form of a draft Constitution Amendment and the National Assembly

shall consider it in three readings;

(3) the voting in the first reading for acceptance in principle shall be by roll call and open voting, and the amendment must be approved by votes of not less than one-half of the total ~ 172 ~ number of the existing members of both Houses;

(4) the consideration in the second reading section by section shall also be subject to a public hearing participated by persons having the right to vote, who have proposed the draft Constitution Amendment; The voting in the second reading for consideration

section by section shall be decided by a simple majority of votes

(5) at the conclusion of the second reading, there shall be an interval of fifteen days after which the National Assembly

shall proceed with its third reading;

(6) the voting in the third and final reading shall be by roll call and open voting, and its promulgation as the Constitution must

be approved by votes of more than one-half of the total number of the existing members of both Houses;

(7) after the resolution has been passed in accordance with the rules and procedures hitherto specified, the draft Constitution Amendment shall be presented to the King, and the provisions of section 150 and section 151 shall apply mutates mutandis.

No where does it say the amendment has to be reviewed by the Constitutional court. Therefore, this ruling is not applicable and should not be considered.

The knife cuts two ways no where does it say the Constitutional court can not be applied to for a ruling.

Are you saying the Constitutional court is not qualified to say what is Constitutional and what is not?

[spare5]

5 million people = critical mass.

5.8 million people is way beyond critical mass.

[rickirs]

To stage a people's revolution without ripping up the Constitution? Wasn't an arrest warrant issued for Suthep on treason? It seems the Democrats can only get in power when the Constitution is waived by military coup and they're hoping that will happen again before Feb. 2nd. Meanwhile Suthep's stategy is to "overthrow" the elected PM and install an unelected "People's Committee" to rule the country for up to 18 months? Where is that in the Constitution?

[MrSlatersParrot]

To stage a people's revolution without ripping up the Constitution? Wasn't an arrest warrant issued for Suthep on treason? It seems the Democrats can only get in power when the Constitution is waived by military coup and they're hoping that will happen again before Feb. 2nd. Meanwhile Suthep's stategy is to "overthrow" the elected PM and install an unelected "People's Committee" to rule the country for up to 18 months? Where is that in the Constitution?

Nail on head!

[pmugghc]

Isn't what we have now "Ochlocracy"? Ochlocracy ("rule of the general populace") is democracy ("rule of the people") spoiled by demagoguery, "tyranny of the majority", and the rule of passion over reason, just like oligarchy ("rule of a few") is aristocracy ("rule of the best") spoiled by corruption. From Wikipedia.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[animatic]

Far too many in vain attempts to spin this as so much ado about Suthep,

and so little ado about the people actually getting out in huge numbers to protest, lead by Suthep and many others.

This is far more than about one man and his cronies, going after another to remove him from power.

But the only way to make it seem less 'the will of the people' fed up with a 'failing regime of criminal intent',

and more an 'elitists power play, is to focus on Suthep as nutcase, or crony, or vengeful, etc, etc.

Gee I wonder who would benefit from making Suthep look bad, and label all in the rally crony opportunists?

Oh yes, the other sides Thaksin-crony opportunists. Suthep could call to the people all he wanted to,

but they wouldn't come unless THEY wanted to...

yes but THEY are so few when compared to the 60m Thais - that's the Chang in the room

only an election will show how many 'THEY'S' there are... right???

putting a few hundred thousand THEY"S on the street and extrapolating that to equal ALL of Thailand citizens is a foolish nonsense and you know it

60 million Thais are not voters.

One voter typically represents 2-3 other people.

Just as active protestors in large numbers also

represent those at home who could not go to protest.

This group, just like the parliament, represents other Thais by less formal proxy.

In these terms their representative reach is a significant block,

And that dear friends is why the Shin government on the ropes,

is taking them seriously. Even if you aren't.

5.8 million onthe street in Bangkok. Multiple by 2-3.

I don't see why Suthep would not go to the poll if he can achieve that critical mass.

I posed this same concept to my first boss here in Thailand,

25 years in country and fluent speaking, and truly informed and sober person.

2-3? He thought that number was way low,

200-300 sympathetic for each and every motivated risk taker he estimated after a minute of thought.

I responded well 20-30 each, and he nodded certainly.

Even splitting the difference low ball it is still 18 home-folk represented per person in the rally.

So 18 million for each 1 million marching. And there have been more than 1 million at least twice.

And even if you attempt skew the numbers how you wish, the GOVERNMENT is clearly scared

by what these on the ground numbers represent.