Are you an Atheist/Believer?

[rgs2001uk]

"Apologetics" is derived from the Greek root word apologia. In ancient Greece it referred to a formal defense of a belief, an explanation or argument for one’s philosophy or religion. The word occurs several times in the New Testament, including sections of the Gospels, seeking to persuade unbelievers of the truth claims of the Church, especially the unique nature of the person and work of Jesus Christ. Religious people get degrees in the above and study it for their entire lives.

Charles Rice, professor of the jurisprudence of St. Thomas Aquinas for the last twenty years at Notre Dame Law School, presents a very readable book on the natural law as seen through the teachings of Aquinas and their foundations in reason and Revelation. Reflecting on the most persistent questions 50 Questions on the Natural Law: What It is and Why We Need It.

What I'm getting at here is most people discussing this stuff have at least 3 advanced degrees in religion and or philosophy among other things.

What I'm getting at here is most people discussing this stuff have at least 3 advanced degrees in religion and or philosophy among other things.

And therein lies the problem, they cant even agree amongst themselves on the teachings of Christ or the contents on the NT.

Lets take some thorny subjects such as, abortion, contraception, gay marriage, women priests etc etc.

seeking to persuade unbelievers of the truth claims of the Church

Well I dont know which church you refer to, but there is at least one that seems to have been making it up for the last 2,000 years.

Simple topics such as purgatory, the seven deadly sins, original sin, the cult of worshipping dead people, confession just to name a few, didnt appear anywhere in any bible I ever read.

Then again I am but a simple atheist, never claimed to be infallible.

[boomerangutang]

I appreciate Canuckamuk for sharing with us, his view of what God is/represents. No offense, but I can't help thinking it's a convoluted mythicized belief system. A bit quaint on the edges, but full of wiggle room to counter any possible challenges. Plus, it's virtually impossible to challenge on any scientific basis, which holds true for Astrology, scientology, metaphysics, aliens, paranormal, crop circles, nessie monster, palmistry, numerology, homeopathy, big foot, et. al.

Junkies might say, "it is what it is, man." Can't argue with that, can we? Similarly: 'It's all meant to be' or 'it's all God's will' or 'Allah Akbar' 'We're all in this mess together' or 'it's a dog eat dog world' or 'whatever, dude' or 'it's all karma'

When such statements are trotted out, it's essentially saying nothing. NOTHING. Like that love song; "You Say it Best, When You Say Nothing At All." or the sequel: "I Tolerate You Best, When You Keep Your Mouth Shut." (I jest. That's a made-up title).

Nature and science, dude. That's what real. All else are burnished myths.

[notmyself]

I appreciate Canuckamuk for sharing with us, his view of what God is/represents. No offense, but I can't help thinking it's a convoluted mythicized belief system. A bit quaint on the edges, but full of wiggle room to counter any possible challenges. Plus, it's virtually impossible to challenge on any scientific basis, which holds true for Astrology, scientology, metaphysics, aliens, paranormal, crop circles, nessie monster, palmistry, numerology, homeopathy, big foot, et. al.

AKA belief in belief.

[Neeranam]

I shouldn't feed a troll post, but here goes......

Rinpoche Lama Tarchin and I are friends. Do I have to qualify that to you or anyone? As for the 'soul' question. I've been told I have a lot of soul, particularly when I sing old Motown songs. If you're asking about 'soul' in a spiritual context, I'll have to say I'm an animal, and have no more and no less of whatever you want to describe as 'soul', than marmots, whales, grasshoppers or leeches. An animal is conceived, it strives to survive, it may procreate, then it dies. If you want to burnish one particular species (humans) with superior attributes, you can busy yourself with that. But be careful with the pedestals you put humans on. There are some grave drawbacks. No other animal causes as much harm to its own species and to other species. We are the most polluting, the most wicked species, ever. By having big complicated brains, we are also, by far, the most self-debilitating animals ever. If in doubt, take a look at a psychiatrists' lexicon sometime. Or read the headlines of any newspaper on any day.

So close that you don't know he has been dead for 6 months?

Why complicate an easy question - do you believe you have/are a soul in a physical body? A simple yes or no will suffice.

[Neeranam]

Knowing God PDF Print E-mail

Addthis

Knowing the God In this world, many beliefs exist about God. As a result, people understand God in their own way and often in their own imagination. But what is required is the understanding God as He is, what He is and how He is. The correct understanding about God has to be given by God Himself!

There are some who dont believe in the existence of God, often the reason being His existence cannot be proved like that of human beings. But because we cannot see God with the gross eyes, it doesnt mean that God doesnt exist. Just like wind, which cannot be seen but can be very much felt, it is possible to experience Gods presence through Godly knowledge and meditation.

Who is God and what is His form and name?

We shall now try to understand who God or the Supreme Soul is. The term Supreme Soul means He is supreme among all souls. It implies that, He is also a soul, though He is the Highest of all. He is above birth and death. God is the Supreme Father-Mother, Supreme teacher and Supreme Preceptor to all the human beings and He himself has no father-mother, teacher and preceptor.

God is a subtle, infinitesimal point of Light. He is not visible to the naked eye but it is very much possible to experience His presence and proximity in meditation. He is incorporeal in the sense that he does not have a body of his own. He is not a human being nor does He have a human form. He is immune to pleasure and pain unlike human beings.

Names are a means of identification of human beings after they are born. They do not speak of qualities and actions of the person; they are simply proper nouns and are not attributive names. But the name of the supreme soul or God is based on His qualities and actions. His self-revealed name is Shiva. Shiva means doer of good or benefactor. God does good to all and therefore He is called Shiva. All souls ask for salvation and beatitude i.e. peace and happiness from Him. People remember Him by many other expressive names.

His Virtues

God is the Supreme Father of all. He is called the creator. He is oceanic in his virtues the ocean of peace, the ocean of love, the ocean of bliss, the ocean of knowledge, the ocean of happiness, the ocean of mercy, etc. He is the truth. He is the Almighty and Authority. He is reputed to be the preserver or sustainer of virtues and the destroyer of all evils. He is also the liberator, the guide, and the bestower of salvation, therefore the sadguru. He dispels sorrow, bestows joy. God is perfect in all ways and absolutely detached and loving. He is very benevolent and helpful and so souls ask all things of him. When in sorrow and losing all hope, souls turn to him intuitively and inevitably.

Many are the religions and paths that souls take in their quest for reaching God. Many wars have been waged in his name. However, he does not exclusively belong to anyone. He belongs to everyone equally.

The Supreme Father of all Souls

God is the father of all souls in this world. It is observed that all religions have images, idols or memorials bearing one name or another to represent the form of Light that God is. All over India, the images of the form that Shiva has is found installed; these images are without any human form, in the form of linga, which is the symbol of an incorporeal Being. At Mecca, in the holy place of Kaaba, a stone image with oval form is called Sang-e-Aswad. The devotees who go for Haj kiss this holy stone. Jesus Christ said, God is Light. Guru Nanak, the founder of Sikhism also sang the praise of Him who is All-Light ( ek Omkar) and is incorporeal. In olden days, the Jews held a stone of this shape in their hands while taking a solemn oath and it is believed that Moses had vision of this form of God when he saw a flame behind the bush. The Zoroastrians worship God as fire. The ancient Egyptians worshipped the sun as god. A Buddhist sect in Japan focuses the mind on a small oval shape. They call it Karni, the peace giver.

It seems therefore that human beings, without realizing, have all been worshipping and trying to discover the same God. There is only one God and His form is a point of light. He is called by different names in different religions.

The Divine Abode of God

Where does God live? Is there somewhere one can go to see Him, to be with Him? God is a subtle point of light, and He does not pervade the physical universe. Nor does he live in the heart of any human being or in any matter. Neither is He omnipresent; nor is He having a human form. His home is the incorporeal world, an infinite expanse of golden-red light, which is beyond this physical world we live. It is the original abode of all souls as well. The incorporeal world is known as Paramdham or Brahmlok. Knowing where the Supreme Father is, we can establish connection with Him through thoughts during meditation.

The Divine Descent of God

God descends into this world when it is under the spell of extreme darkness of ignorance, unrighteousness, moral turpitude, spiritual lassitude and religious decrepitude. This is described in scriptures as Dharma Glani. Looking at the state of affairs today, it should not be difficult for us to conclude that the time the world is undergoing at present is indeed the Dharma Glani. This is the period of darkness when sins and crimes of all kinds usually take place; when man gropes around for want of clear vision. It is at this time that God intervenes in the affairs of mankind. The divine intervention takes place at the darkest hour of human history when the human soul is groping in the darkness of ignorance about the self, the creator and the creation; when the souls are blinded by the vices of lust, arrogance, anger, greed and attachment.

It is in this time that God descends in the body of an ordinary man to reveal the Godly Knowledge, which paves way to victory over vices and cultivate divine qualities in life. This enables human beings to transform into divine beings again.

http://www.brahmakumaris.com/rajayoga-meditation/97.html

[notmyself]

Made up but people are welcome to believe it if they wish. Just don't ask law to be changed to accommodate it nor expect anyone to have to respect it. Believe you are a chicken sandwich for all I care so long as you expect the same with regard to law and respect.

It's all exactly the same.

Edited January 22, 2014 by notmyself

[boomerangutang]

you're adept at copy and paste.....

Knowing God PDF Print E-mail
Addthis
Knowing the God In this world, many beliefs exist about God. As a result, people understand God in their own way and often in their own imagination. But what is required is the understanding God as He is, what He is and how He is. The correct understanding about God has to be given by God Himself! God must be male. If not,call it and 'it.'

There are some who dont believe in the existence of God, often the reason being His existence cannot be proved like that of human beings. But because we cannot see God with the gross eyes, it doesnt mean that God doesnt exist. Just like wind, which cannot be seen but can be very much felt, it is possible to experience Gods presence through Godly knowledge and meditation. I feel the wind. Plus, I can see its effects, and I know what it's made of: air. It exists. The reason God can't be proven to exist is because he/she/it is a glorified fictional being.

Who is God and what is His form and name? We shall now try to understand who God or the Supreme Soul is. The term Supreme Soul means He is supreme among all souls. It implies that, He is also a soul, though He is the Highest of all. He is above birth and death. God is the Supreme Father-Mother, Supreme teacher and Supreme Preceptor to all the human beings and He himself has no father-mother, teacher and preceptor. Holy Jupiter's ghost, God is some heavy dude.

God is a subtle, infinitesimal point of Light. He is not visible to the naked eye but it is very much possible to experience His presence and proximity in meditation. He is incorporeal in the sense that he does not have a body of his own. He is not a human being nor does He have a human form. He is immune to pleasure and pain unlike human beings. He is a shape-shifter. It figures, because He doesn't want to be defined. He's the great mystery man, the biggest, the smallest, the unborn, the never-dying, etc etc like Superman on steroids and acid.

Names are a means of identification of human beings after they are born. They do not speak of qualities and actions of the person; they are simply proper nouns and are not attributive names. But the name of the supreme soul or God is based on His qualities and actions. His self-revealed name is Shiva. Shiva means doer of good or benefactor. God does good to all and therefore He is called Shiva. All souls ask for salvation and beatitude i.e. peace and happiness from Him. People remember Him by many other expressive names. Oh, now God is owned and named by the Hindus. I don't think the Christians, Islamists, Hebrews, will take too kindly to that. They each have their own God, and have their own names and attributes for Him.


His Virtues
God is the Supreme Father of all. He is called the creator. He is oceanic in his virtues the ocean of peace, the ocean of love, the ocean of bliss, the ocean of knowledge, the ocean of happiness, the ocean of mercy, etc. He is the truth. He is the Almighty and Authority. He is reputed to be the preserver or sustainer of virtues and the destroyer of all evils. He is also the liberator, the guide, and the bestower of salvation, therefore the sadguru. He dispels sorrow, bestows joy. God is perfect in all ways and absolutely detached and loving. He is very benevolent and helpful and so souls ask all things of him. When in sorrow and losing all hope, souls turn to him intuitively and inevitably. He's all things, the great shape-shifter. He's benevolent, but violent. He's jealous and vindictive, he's comforting, but can flame you faster than a crashing comet. All things, wow, that's one impressive resumee.

Many are the religions and paths that souls take in their quest for reaching God. Many wars have been waged in his name. However, he does not exclusively belong to anyone. He belongs to everyone equally. If you dilute the definition of God any more, He will become like homeopathy.

The Supreme Father of all Souls
God is the father of all souls in this world. It is observed that all religions have images, idols or memorials bearing one name or another to represent the form of Light that God is. All over India, the images of the form that Shiva has is found installed; these images are without any human form, in the form of linga, which is the symbol of an incorporeal Being. At Mecca, in the holy place of Kaaba, a stone image with oval form is called Sang-e-Aswad. The devotees who go for Haj kiss this holy stone. Jesus Christ said, God is Light. Guru Nanak, the founder of Sikhism also sang the praise of Him who is All-Light ( ek Omkar) and is incorporeal. In olden days, the Jews held a stone of this shape in their hands while taking a solemn oath and it is believed that Moses had vision of this form of God when he saw a flame behind the bush. The Zoroastrians worship God as fire. The ancient Egyptians worshipped the sun as god. A Buddhist sect in Japan focuses the mind on a small oval shape. They call it Karni, the peace giver. How about the hex shape , can we fit that in? Can we call Him 'Bob with Blazing Shorts' - Is that allowed?

It seems therefore that human beings, without realizing, have all been worshipping and trying to discover the same God. There is only one God and His form is a point of light. He is called by different names in different religions. Oh, thanks for clearing that up. And all this time I was spacing out on R&B music, and pretty girls in hot pants, but now I'm told I have been worshiping God all along. Whew, does that mean I'm saved from damnation?

The Divine Abode of God
Where does God live? Is there somewhere one can go to see Him, to be with Him? God is a subtle point of light, and He does not pervade the physical universe. Nor does he live in the heart of any human being or in any matter. Neither is He omnipresent; nor is He having a human form. His home is the incorporeal world, an infinite expanse of golden-red light, which is beyond this physical world we live. It is the original abode of all souls as well. The incorporeal world is known as Paramdham or Brahmlok. Knowing where the Supreme Father is, we can establish connection with Him through thoughts during meditation. Shape Shifter to the n'th degree. Deists even have names for His abodes - how creative!


The Divine Descent of God
God descends into this world when it is under the spell of extreme darkness of ignorance, unrighteousness, moral turpitude, spiritual lassitude and religious decrepitude. This is described in scriptures as Dharma Glani. Looking at the state of affairs today, it should not be difficult for us to conclude that the time the world is undergoing at present is indeed the Dharma Glani. This is the period of darkness when sins and crimes of all kinds usually take place; when man gropes around for want of clear vision. It is at this time that God intervenes in the affairs of mankind. The divine intervention takes place at the darkest hour of human history when the human soul is groping in the darkness of ignorance about the self, the creator and the creation; when the souls are blinded by the vices of lust, arrogance, anger, greed and attachment. God must have been mighty busy in the past 3,000 years. There have been wars and rapes and agony going on non-stop all that time - plus most of the great animal species have disappeared on His watch. Could God have screwed up? Naw, He's inimitable. Too bad He only cares about one species, and what a deranged species that is.

It is in this time that God descends in the body of an ordinary man to reveal the Godly Knowledge, which paves way to victory over vices and cultivate divine qualities in life. This enables human beings to transform into divine beings again. Uh oh, thanks for informing me that God can take the body form of the one species that's slowly destroying the planet. Poor Jesus, He barely got to host a large picnic and later; a meal with 12 of his buddies, then the authorities came and dragged him off and killed him. Still a young man, so sad. Do we really need to carry depictions of his death device around our necks? I don't think he'd get behind that sort of cult. If Jesus were around today, he'd be a hippie, and still be prosecuted for being an unconventional out-of-a-job nutcase.



http://www.brahmakumaris.com/rajayoga-meditation/97.html

[notmyself]

you're adept at copy and paste.....

Whilst I may agree with much of what you say I do not think that presenting it in such a way is agreeable.

One thing which did stand out was....

If you dilute the definition of God any more, He will become like homeopathy.

I would consider this to be undeniable except for the timeframe. The god character has been increasingly homeopathic-like for quite some considerable time and there is nothing to suggest that 'he' will not continue to be even more so as time passes.

[sirineou]

.His home is the incorporeal world, an infinite expanse of golden-red light, which is beyond this physical world we live. It is the original abode of all souls as well.

Wow, these people seem to know a lot about god,

exactly how did they come across all this information?

By the way , does it have to be golden-red , can it not be like silvery-blue, or magenta?You know, so few things go well with golden-red.

[sirineou]

Yes Sirineou you may continue to beat up Christians, since that is what this thread is about for you.

You know me well canuckamuck, I am intellectually lazy, I go for the low hanging fruit,and non hung so low as the Abrahamic religions fruit.

[notmyself]

A bit more on spiritualism

Sorry it's from Faux News but this kind of stuff is mainstream.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OIqpKTjuVzQ

[sirineou]

The number of Atheists has always being underestimated, as has the number of Christians has being overestimated

Most organised religious denominations consider anyone who was ever baptized in to their church a member, as if no one ever converted.I know I am considered a member of the religion I was baptized in.

Likewise not many people were wiling to openly admite atheism for fear of ostracism or worst.

As Atheism or deism become more and more acceptable , more and more people are admitting their true position in religion.

A Gallup poll taken on August 2013 finds that religiosity in America has dropped from 73% in 2005 ( the last time the pole was conducted) to 60%. America being one of the more religious countries in the developed world.

at the same time the number of people saying they are Atheists rose, from 1% to 5%

http://www.faithstreet.com/onfaith/2012/08/13/poll-shows-atheism-on-the-rise-in-the-us/20818

Did so many people change their beliefs in such a short time or are more and more coming out of the closet as it becomes more acceptable?A logical analysis of the facts supports the later .

[canuckamuck]

The number of Atheists has always being underestimated, as has the number of Christians has being overestimated

Most organised religious denominations consider anyone who was ever baptized in to their church a member, as if no one ever converted.I know I am considered a member of the religion I was baptized in.

Likewise not many people were wiling to openly admite atheism for fear of ostracism or worst.

As Atheism or deism become more and more acceptable , more and more people are admitting their true position in religion.

A Gallup poll taken on August 2013 finds that religiosity in America has dropped from 73% in 2005 ( the last time the pole was conducted) to 60%. America being one of the more religious countries in the developed world.

at the same time the number of people saying they are Atheists rose, from 1% to 5%

http://www.faithstreet.com/onfaith/2012/08/13/poll-shows-atheism-on-the-rise-in-the-us/20818

Did so many people change their beliefs in such a short time or are more and more coming out of the closet as it becomes more acceptable?A logical analysis of the facts supports the later .

I don't think people, at least in the west, have any fear of revealing their atheism. They probably did 20 years ago but not now. Today being atheist is totally PC. It is the people of faith that are more likely to keep their mouth shut because of the acceptable hostility towards religion so common today. If you think this isn't true just go back and read this thread again and see how eagerly people ridicule belief systems. Do you really think Pastafarians are being genuine about their religion? Do they truly believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster, or is it simply an elaborate mockery of people of faith. Of course it is mockery, and for most people it is great fun. It’s cool to be a mocker. It used to be cool to make jokes about black people or homosexuals.

So many stereotypes have been taken off the table for ridicule; you just can't make jokes about minorities any more without being a pariah (and rightly so). But make a few Jesus jokes and you will win most crowds. And you do not see the reverse situation, at least not very often. You don't see atheists under attack in mainstream media, you don't see atheists portrayed as mentally unstable in Hollywood movies, but if there is a religious character; that character is frequently the perverted psychopath living a double life. If a crime show introduces a priest, you can be quite certain he’s the killer or involved in something dark. And this to me is sad because the majority of Christians I know are exemplary citizens and the best neighbors you could ask for.

And for the most part people haven't stopped being religious, they have just shifted what they believe in. Today people kneel at the altar of science and intellectualism. It used to be (dark ages) people let the church be the authority on all things, which was of course misguided. Organizations are always infected with some level of corruption and the church is intended to be a spiritual guide, not a laboratory. People having faith in science are pretty safe, when observing the physical world. But for people to have faith in science about spiritual matters is equally misguided. Scientific method requires things to be falsifiable, it requires physical things to measure and observe. For people to fully trust science is limiting and naive. Science can be used to manipulate and scientists are not above favoring agendas to find better careers and funding. Yes there is peer review, but this too is open to manipulation.

Everybody believes in some form of universal incorruptible truth, to some science is a god. For me it is a revelation of God. But I won’t go to a lab for spiritual guidance.

[sirineou]

The number of Atheists has always being underestimated, as has the number of Christians has being overestimated

Most organised religious denominations consider anyone who was ever baptized in to their church a member, as if no one ever converted.I know I am considered a member of the religion I was baptized in.

Likewise not many people were wiling to openly admite atheism for fear of ostracism or worst.

As Atheism or deism become more and more acceptable , more and more people are admitting their true position in religion.

A Gallup poll taken on August 2013 finds that religiosity in America has dropped from 73% in 2005 ( the last time the pole was conducted) to 60%. America being one of the more religious countries in the developed world.

at the same time the number of people saying they are Atheists rose, from 1% to 5%

http://www.faithstreet.com/onfaith/2012/08/13/poll-shows-atheism-on-the-rise-in-the-us/20818

Did so many people change their beliefs in such a short time or are more and more coming out of the closet as it becomes more acceptable?A logical analysis of the facts supports the later .

I don't think people, at least in the west, have any fear of revealing their atheism. They probably did 20 years ago but not now. Today being atheist is totally PC. It is the people of faith that are more likely to keep their mouth shut because of the acceptable hostility towards religion so common today. If you think this isn't true just go back and read this thread again and see how eagerly people ridicule belief systems. Do you really think Pastafarians are being genuine about their religion? Do they truly believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster, or is it simply an elaborate mockery of people of faith. Of course it is mockery, and for most people it is great fun. It’s cool to be a mocker. It used to be cool to make jokes about black people or homosexuals.

So many stereotypes have been taken off the table for ridicule; you just can't make jokes about minorities any more without being a pariah (and rightly so). But make a few Jesus jokes and you will win most crowds. And you do not see the reverse situation, at least not very often. You don't see atheists under attack in mainstream media, you don't see atheists portrayed as mentally unstable in Hollywood movies, but if there is a religious character; that character is frequently the perverted psychopath living a double life. If a crime show introduces a priest, you can be quite certain he’s the killer or involved in something dark. And this to me is sad because the majority of Christians I know are exemplary citizens and the best neighbors you could ask for.

And for the most part people haven't stopped being religious, they have just shifted what they believe in. Today people kneel at the altar of science and intellectualism. It used to be (dark ages) people let the church be the authority on all things, which was of course misguided. Organizations are always infected with some level of corruption and the church is intended to be a spiritual guide, not a laboratory. People having faith in science are pretty safe, when observing the physical world. But for people to have faith in science about spiritual matters is equally misguided. Scientific method requires things to be falsifiable, it requires physical things to measure and observe. For people to fully trust science is limiting and naive. Science can be used to manipulate and scientists are not above favoring agendas to find better careers and funding. Yes there is peer review, but this too is open to manipulation.

Everybody believes in some form of universal incorruptible truth, to some science is a god. For me it is a revelation of God. But I won’t go to a lab for spiritual guidance.

If you think it is PC to be an Atheist, please point out to any successful atheist politicians

in America

You got to be kidding when you are complaining about Christians being prosecuted like Homosexuals and Blacks, when it was your faith that persecuted both.

Also a red herring argument,since Christianity unlike race or homosexuality is a choice.

all the rest I dont even know what to say, a bunch of incoherent statements linked together with important sounding words, of what I think is an attempt to say that Science is the new religion, or I don't really know what, as I said incoherent.

Science is a logical progression process, nothing more and nothing less.anything can be subjected to the scientific process,

If the scientific process is corrupted ten it is not very scientific, it is something like creationism.

If you can not trust logic then......................

[boomerangutang]

I don't care for the words; 'atheist' and 'agnostic' - the latter sounds like it's related to 'antagonistic'

Those words infer indecision. I've gone from studying the world's religions, and have realized I don't need a belief system mythisized and publicized by some elder men writing texts late at night, or proselytizing from pulpits. I'm not saying all they've written/bellowed is wrong. It's just that I've always found truth from my own endeavors. Sure, it's helpful to have guides along the way, but I don't need elder men putting words in my mouth, or telling me how to think.

My life's philosophy isn't based on indecision, it's grounded in nature. That's why, if a surveyor asked me if I was an agnostic or atheist, she wouldn't get a 'yes.' And there are probably significant numbers of people who think similarly to me on that topic. We're not against everything religious, we're just drawn to a less mythisized, less judgemental way of living and thinking. People who are drawn to nature can get every bit as high (or perhaps higher) as those who feel compelled to adhere to an elaborate code of deism.

[thailiketoo]

I don't think people, at least in the west, have any fear of revealing their atheism. They probably did 20 years ago but not now. Today being atheist is totally PC. It is the people of faith that are more likely to keep their mouth shut because of the acceptable hostility towards religion so common today. If you think this isn't true just go back and read this thread again and see how eagerly people ridicule belief systems. Do you really think Pastafarians are being genuine about their religion? Do they truly believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster, or is it simply an elaborate mockery of people of faith. Of course it is mockery, and for most people it is great fun. It’s cool to be a mocker. It used to be cool to make jokes about black people or homosexuals.

So many stereotypes have been taken off the table for ridicule; you just can't make jokes about minorities any more without being a pariah (and rightly so). But make a few Jesus jokes and you will win most crowds. And you do not see the reverse situation, at least not very often. You don't see atheists under attack in mainstream media, you don't see atheists portrayed as mentally unstable in Hollywood movies, but if there is a religious character; that character is frequently the perverted psychopath living a double life. If a crime show introduces a priest, you can be quite certain he’s the killer or involved in something dark. And this to me is sad because the majority of Christians I know are exemplary citizens and the best neighbors you could ask for.

And for the most part people haven't stopped being religious, they have just shifted what they believe in. Today people kneel at the altar of science and intellectualism. It used to be (dark ages) people let the church be the authority on all things, which was of course misguided. Organizations are always infected with some level of corruption and the church is intended to be a spiritual guide, not a laboratory. People having faith in science are pretty safe, when observing the physical world. But for people to have faith in science about spiritual matters is equally misguided. Scientific method requires things to be falsifiable, it requires physical things to measure and observe. For people to fully trust science is limiting and naive. Science can be used to manipulate and scientists are not above favoring agendas to find better careers and funding. Yes there is peer review, but this too is open to manipulation.

Everybody believes in some form of universal incorruptible truth, to some science is a god. For me it is a revelation of God. But I won’t go to a lab for spiritual guidance.

You wrote, "Everybody believes in some form of universal incorruptible truth." I don't. I know many people that believe, "Shi* happens." and that might be a lie.

If people are looking for order they may find it. If they are looking for disorder they may find that.

Or they may find nothing.

So you are wrong. Incorruptibly, inarguabley, devastatingly and completely wrong.

Some day I won't wake up and I'll be dead. That's al,l just dead. And that won't be good or bad it will just be.

Although that would make an interesting poll. Do you believe in some form of universal incorruptible truth? Yes or no. But it would it only serve to make you feel worse about being wrong as I imagine about 33% don't believe in some form of universal incorruptible truth.

Go ahead and try it. I won't hold my breath though.

Edited January 23, 2014 by thailiketoo

[sirineou]

I don't care for the words; 'atheist' and 'agnostic' - the latter sounds like it's related to 'antagonistic'

Those words infer indecision. I've gone from studying the world's religions, and have realized I don't need a belief system mythisized and publicized by some elder men writing texts late at night, or proselytizing from pulpits. I'm not saying all they've written/bellowed is wrong. It's just that I've always found truth from my own endeavors. Sure, it's helpful to have guides along the way, but I don't need elder men putting words in my mouth, or telling me how to think.

My life's philosophy isn't based on indecision, it's grounded in nature. That's why, if a surveyor asked me if I was an agnostic or atheist, she wouldn't get a 'yes.' And there are probably significant numbers of people who think similarly to me on that topic. We're not against everything religious, we're just drawn to a less mythisized, less judgemental way of living and thinking. People who are drawn to nature can get every bit as high (or perhaps higher) as those who feel compelled to adhere to an elaborate code of deism.

Yea , I dont like the Atheist or agnostic label also, I like the word Skeptic, any one makes an assertion I would say, Hmm let me think about it, and after I examine all the supporting evidence, I will either accept or reject the assertion.

Religious people, for the most part, use that same process for everything, except their religion,

they abandon reason and logic, and use all short of intellectual gymnastics to justify that which is now unjustifiable.

They use vague statements such as, reason is used in the scientific process but faith is needed for things that are outside the realm of our understanding.

If their god is outside our understanding it simply means that we don't understand what the heck we are talking about and should leave it along, instead of making up sh*t

[sirineou]

Some day I won't wake up and I'll be dead. That's al,l just dead. And that won't be good or bad it will just be.

And that would be good

because if you woke up and you were dead, then it would be very bad, and after a couple of days when you started decomposing also very embarrassing.

[thailiketoo]

Some day I won't wake up and I'll be dead. That's al,l just dead. And that won't be good or bad it will just be.

And that would be good

because if you woke up and you were dead, then it would be very bad, and after a couple of days when you started decomposing also very embarrassing.

Here I am being real serious and trying to take a complex philosophical topic to a 6 grade grammar school level and working on the lyrics of a new song and you make fun of it?

Let it be, let it be, let it be. Catchy lyric eh? Do you think I can sell it?

[canuckamuck]

If you think it is PC to be an Atheist, please point out to any successful atheist politicians

in America

You got to be kidding when you are complaining about Christians being prosecuted like Homosexuals and Blacks, when it was your faith that persecuted both.

Also a red herring argument,since Christianity unlike race or homosexuality is a choice.

all the rest I dont even know what to say, a bunch of incoherent statements linked together with important sounding words, of what I think is an attempt to say that Science is the new religion, or I don't really know what, as I said incoherent.

Science is a logical progression process, nothing more and nothing less.anything can be subjected to the scientific process,

If the scientific process is corrupted ten it is not very scientific, it is something like creationism.

If you can not trust logic then......................

-I really don't follow American politics, I don't think I could name more than 5 American politicians, but you are right in the fact that the weirdness of American politics includes a particular Norman Rockwell family expectation of major candidates. Also America is not the world.

-Not many cultures have been kind to homosexuals and even South Africa persecuted blacks. You can't make that a Christian phenomenon. Although Christian history is full of appalling inhumanity. None of which can be supported by The Bible. Atheism as a cultural identity has not really had much opportunity to have a track record yet.

-So it is Ok to persecute people on things they have chosen to believe just not what they inherited genetically?

-Incoherent, really. I must improve my skills.

I didn't say science is the new religion, that is your addition. I was describing how people have a religious adherence to it (faith in it). Very similar to the dark ages when the priests were the final authority on all things; today it is the science that cannot be questioned. "How can you argue with science"? Is a common phrase in these types of discussions.

Yes if science is corrupted it is not scientific. But we are not always talking about organic chemistry or physics and the like. Quite a lot of what is covered under the banner of science are things like consensus, and untestable postulation. When it comes to spirituality science really has no foundation to make an opinion, yet people use science as their evidence against the spiritual realm.

Logic can only be trusted in the supernatural realm if one understands the logic of the supernatural.

Edited January 23, 2014 by canuckamuck

[thailiketoo]

-I really don't follow American politics, I don't think I could name more than 5 American politicians, but you are right in the fact that the weirdness of American politics includes a particular Norman Rockwell family expectation of major candidates. Also America is not the world.

-Not many cultures have been kind to homosexuals and even South Africa persecuted blacks. You can't make that a Christian phenomenon. Although Christian history is full of appalling inhumanity. None of which can be supported by The Bible. Atheism as a cultural identity has not really had much opportunity to have a track record yet.

-So it is Ok to persecute people on things they have chosen to believe just not what they inherited genetically?

-Incoherent, really. I must improve my skills.

I didn't say science is the new religion, that is your addition. I was describing how people have a religious adherence to it (faith in it). Very similar to the dark ages when the priests were the final authority on all things; today it is the science that cannot be questioned. "How can you argue with science"? Is a common phrase in these types of discussions.

Yes if science is corrupted it is not scientific. But we are not always talking about organic chemistry or physics and the like. Quite a lot of what is covered under the banner of science are things like consensus, and untestable postulation. When it comes to spirituality science really has no foundation to make an opinion, yet people use science as their evidence against the spiritual realm.

Logic can only be trusted in the supernatural realm if one understands the logic of the supernatural.

Nothing is supernatural.

[sirineou]

If you think it is PC to be an Atheist, please point out to any successful atheist politicians

in America

You got to be kidding when you are complaining about Christians being prosecuted like Homosexuals and Blacks, when it was your faith that persecuted both.

Also a red herring argument,since Christianity unlike race or homosexuality is a choice.

all the rest I dont even know what to say, a bunch of incoherent statements linked together with important sounding words, of what I think is an attempt to say that Science is the new religion, or I don't really know what, as I said incoherent.

Science is a logical progression process, nothing more and nothing less.anything can be subjected to the scientific process,

If the scientific process is corrupted ten it is not very scientific, it is something like creationism.

If you can not trust logic then......................

-I really don't follow American politics, I don't think I could name more than 5 American politicians, but you are right in the fact that the weirdness of American politics includes a particular Norman Rockwell family expectation of major candidates. Also America is not the world.

-Not many cultures have been kind to homosexuals and even South Africa persecuted blacks. You can't make that a Christian phenomenon. Although Christian history is full of appalling inhumanity. None of which can be supported by The Bible. Atheism as a cultural identity has not really had much opportunity to have a track record yet.

-So it is Ok to persecute people on things they have chosen to believe just not what they inherited genetically?

-Incoherent, really. I must improve my skills.

I didn't say science is the new religion, that is your addition. I was describing how people have a religious adherence to it (faith in it). Very similar to the dark ages when the priests were the final authority on all things; today it is the science that cannot be questioned. "How can you argue with science"? Is a common phrase in these types of discussions.

Yes if science is corrupted it is not scientific. But we are not always talking about organic chemistry or physics and the like. Quite a lot of what is covered under the banner of science are things like consensus, and untestable postulation. When it comes to spirituality science really has no foundation to make an opinion, yet people use science as their evidence against the spiritual realm.

Logic can only be trusted in the supernatural realm if one understands the logic of the supernatural.

You are right, Christianity has no monopoly on inhumane behavior,In fact it is unfair to target Christianity when talking about religion. It became a little of that because the opposition in this forum is Christian.

It is religion I have a problem with,Christianity is only a part of it.

And I would not have any problem with it at all if it was not trying to impose it's belief system on me and mine..

Any un-testable postulations are not covered under the banner of science but under the banner of Philosophy.

And of course science has a foundation to have an opinion on spirituality. If science did not what would? If some one made the assertion that prayer had an affect on physical events, wouldn't science say, ok let's test that claim? how else can any one verify any claims then?

If spiritual claims were unverifiable, then what is to stop any one from making any claim what so ever, and then simply slap the label of spirituality on it and inoculate it from any further examination.

And again I would not care if you or anyone else made any claims the wanted , I would simply say "Ok what ever rocks your boat" but when you try to impose those claims on me and mine, then we fave a problem.

I don't have a problem with any religion , it might sound like I do because I argue against them but I only argue against them because they try to impose them selves upon me. I would fight for the right of religion to exist, that's why I support the separation of Church and state.But some religions are trying to become the state, and some have succeeded.

and if we allow it to happen to as, then we will loose the right to any religion, or no religion at all.

Edited January 23, 2014 by sirineou

[canuckamuck]

Well I am not imposing my beliefs on you, I am only trying to give some meat to this side of the debate. You seem to enjoy the conversation.

In my opinion true belief cannot be imposed on anyone. That is an impossibility. religion on the other can be forced and that is a terrible thing. I would fight against it as well.

Personally I think the minute belief becomes religion, the sincerity of it is lost. However the term religion is used in different contexts and some would say that belief in God is a religious position.

Spiritual claims may or may not be reproducible to the satisfaction of science. This is a dead end for those who do not accept a spiritual realm, but not a problem at all for those who do. I live my life in pursuit of greater spiritual awareness, and I have studied various faith positions including considerable Biblical study and theological debate and have enough personal experience to have arrived a a point of satisfaction and confidence in my world view. I cannot however do a mind meld with someone else and have them arrive at the same conclusions. However I hope that others might attain my peace.

[canuckamuck]

-I really don't follow American politics, I don't think I could name more than 5 American politicians, but you are right in the fact that the weirdness of American politics includes a particular Norman Rockwell family expectation of major candidates. Also America is not the world.

-Not many cultures have been kind to homosexuals and even South Africa persecuted blacks. You can't make that a Christian phenomenon. Although Christian history is full of appalling inhumanity. None of which can be supported by The Bible. Atheism as a cultural identity has not really had much opportunity to have a track record yet.

-So it is Ok to persecute people on things they have chosen to believe just not what they inherited genetically?

-Incoherent, really. I must improve my skills.

I didn't say science is the new religion, that is your addition. I was describing how people have a religious adherence to it (faith in it). Very similar to the dark ages when the priests were the final authority on all things; today it is the science that cannot be questioned. "How can you argue with science"? Is a common phrase in these types of discussions.

Yes if science is corrupted it is not scientific. But we are not always talking about organic chemistry or physics and the like. Quite a lot of what is covered under the banner of science are things like consensus, and untestable postulation. When it comes to spirituality science really has no foundation to make an opinion, yet people use science as their evidence against the spiritual realm.

Logic can only be trusted in the supernatural realm if one understands the logic of the supernatural.

Nothing is supernatural.

As if saying it makes it true...

[thailiketoo]

Nothing is supernatural.

As if saying it makes it true...

So you make a claim using the word and concept supernatural and I'm supposed to provide the proof?

So If I say Peter Pan is real it is incumbent upon you to prove he is not?

You used the word you provide the proof. Or as per usual start flaming me because you can't come up with a rational answer.

[canuckamuck]

I didn't flame you I was simply being sarcastic. And I apologized. Move on.

We are in ancient discussion about God or no God. No one has proved either side, so I have a low expectation of being the first.

The atheist position of we don't believe it so we don't have to prove anything isn't really new either. One side of this argument is right and the other is wrong and it won't be decided on a technicality.

The thing about God is everyone is dying to see if He exists.

[thailiketoo]

I didn't flame you I was simply being sarcastic. And I apologized. Move on.

We are in ancient discussion about God or no God. No one has proved either side, so I have a low expectation of being the first.

The atheist position of we don't believe it so we don't have to prove anything isn't really new either. One side of this argument is right and the other is wrong and it won't be decided on a technicality.

The thing about God is everyone is dying to see if He exists.

Enough of the nonsense posts. You wrote, "The atheist position of we don't believe it so we don't have to prove anything isn't really new either."

That is not what I said. It is not an atheist position. It could be peanut butter or toilet paper.

You brought it up. You used the word. It could be anything. You brought it up so you prove it.

You said supernatural. I said it does not exist. You could have said dog poop makes good peanut butter and I would have said the same thing. It does not exist. It is not incumbent on me to disprove your silly words.

You said it so you prove it. There is only one side. God. If he does not exist that is not another side. Dog poop does not make peanut butter. There is not two arguments there. Either dog poop makes peanut butter or it does not.

It is daylight outside. There is only one side to that. It is either daylight or it is not. You invented god not me. You invented him so prove him.

I'm just sitting here typing. “More than 6-in-10 white evangelical Protestants (62 percent) and minority Protestants (65 percent) believe that God rewards athletes." That is nuts. It is not up to me to disprove God does not fix football games. If you believe in him you prove it. There is not two sides to the argument.

[canuckamuck]

If I said dog poop makes good peanut butter, you would say it does not exist?

[thailiketoo]

If I said dog poop makes good peanut butter, you would say it does not exist?

Make your point. You used the supernatural and I said the supernatural does not exist. There is not two sides. One is right and one is wrong. There is only one right side.

[canuckamuck]

Perhaps you prefer the term spiritual to supernatural. It is hard to judge what will satisfy someone who claims peanut butter doesn't exist.

I have a strong personal belief that peanut butter and God both exist but if you won't go for peanut butter I have strong doubts that you will believe in God..