Are you an Atheist/Believer?

[notmyself]

I don't think people, at least in the west, have any fear of revealing their atheism. They probably did 20 years ago but not now.

Also America is not the world.

Nor is 'the West' the world. In many parts of 'the world' the punishment for coming out as atheist is death. The punishment for apostasy within Islam is death, granted (thankfully) many Islamic countries decide to ignore this divine commandment but it is there, it exists. That's 1.3 Billion people straight off the bat.

I do counselling for two charities. One deals with victims of abusive partners, mostly female but exclusively so. The other is for people in the southern states of the US who have come out as atheist and been shunned by their family, their friends and neighbours. Many lose their job too. These poor people have their whole world taken away from them, not because of what they believe but because of what they don't. First point of call is to get them to attempt some form of reconciliation with their family. Sometimes it works but not often. Most leave town, leave state actually but a large number simply fall through a hole and end up killing themselves, becoming drug addicts, drunkards and/or homeless.

It's not easy doing what I do and it's emotionally stressful and very draining. It is not healthy to inflict this on myself but I do it anyway because I care about people. Your almost off the cuff remark (top quote above) brings a tear to my eye.

[thailiketoo]

Perhaps you prefer the term spiritual to supernatural. It is hard to judge what will satisfy someone who claims peanut butter doesn't exist.

I have a strong personal belief that peanut butter and God both exist but if you won't go for peanut butter I have strong doubts that you will believe in God..

Whether it’s with a good luck dance, whispering a curse or prayers sent directly to God, half of American football fans believe supernatural forces are at play right alongside their favorite quarterback.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2544076/Who-God-rooting-Super-Bowl-Half-American-fans-think-supernatural-forces-decide-wins-football-games.html

I realize you are wanting to turn logic to semantic but what for? I'm not playing semantics with you.

50% Americans! I moved to Thailand to be among people whom I consider rational.

The terms spiritual and supernatural are not the same; not even close.

Edited January 23, 2014 by thailiketoo

[sirineou]

Well I am not imposing my beliefs on you, I am only trying to give some meat to this side of the debate. You seem to enjoy the conversation.

In my opinion true belief cannot be imposed on anyone. That is an impossibility. religion on the other can be forced and that is a terrible thing. I would fight against it as well.

Personally I think the minute belief becomes religion, the sincerity of it is lost. However the term religion is used in different contexts and some would say that belief in God is a religious position.

Spiritual claims may or may not be reproducible to the satisfaction of science. This is a dead end for those who do not accept a spiritual realm, but not a problem at all for those who do. I live my life in pursuit of greater spiritual awareness, and I have studied various faith positions and including considerable Biblical study and theological debate and have enough personal experience to have arrived a a point of satisfaction and confidence in my world view. I cannot however do a mind meld with someone else and have them arrive at the same conclusions. However I hope that others might attain my peace.

When I mean you, I don't really mean you personally, I only mean you with in the context of this discussion since you represent the other side of the debate.I dont' think there are many , if any with in our community of expats and part time expats, who are.

I think that for our community to be where it is, it takes a certain open mindedness and and advertureedness (haa did I just make up a word) that prevent us from being that closed minded . I think being open minded and forging our own destiny is with in our DNA)

And you are right Religion has different meaning for different people , there is a broad spectrum of ideas with in that subject.

In discussions like this one ,this presents a problem some times, because we are all not talking about the same thing.

Anyway, I do enjoy these conversations, and I apologize if some times I get cranky.When I do ,you have my permission to tell me to F*#k off and go home and take my medication

[boomerangutang]

Science is different than religion and deism on several levels: One of the most evident, is: Scientists can make claims, but they accept they may be proven wrong. When a scientist has a finding, he/she encourages others to repeat the experiment(s) to see whether the finding/claim holds up. Religion is diametrically opposed to that. Religious leaders make claims, and they don't tolerate any challenges or deviations from those claims. In Islam, it's particularly painful, as a person can be executed for just questioning any aspect of the Q'ran (their holy book), or for thinking out loud about leaving the fold. Christianity is not as severe, but some of its sects can be suffocating, nevertheless.

One of the greatest scientists of all time, Sir Isaac Newton, had one of his claims shown to be faulty (By Einstein's findings), hundreds of years after Newton's death. It would be akin, in a Christian perspective, to proving that St. Paul was busy with debauchery while admonishing his flock to be so stoic - a distinct possibility, considering that Paul, while still a young man, started the first years of his preaching career in a city renown regionally for prostitution.

[boomerangutang]

The thing about God is everyone is dying to see if He exists.

If you say 'everyone' then you include me. I'm not dying to see if it exists. I'm quite comfortable with my thoughts on the matter - articulated in some of m earlier posts.

You can say, "Everyone is dying to see if Superman (or Thor, or Nadabrahmananda, or Prester John, or Popeye or Atlantis or.....) exists" ....but I doubt everyone has that void in their lives.

[notmyself]

The thing about God is everyone is dying to see if He exists.

If you say 'everyone' then you include me. I'm not dying to see if it exists. I'm quite comfortable with my thoughts on the matter - articulated in some of m earlier posts.

You can say, "Everyone is dying to see if Superman (or Thor, or Nadabrahmananda, or Prester John, or Popeye or Atlantis or.....) exists" ....but I doubt everyone has that void in their lives.

It's a play on words so dying should be understood in a literal sense.

[sirineou]

-I really don't follow American politics, I don't think I could name more than 5 American politicians, but you are right in the fact that the weirdness of American politics includes a particular Norman Rockwell family expectation of major candidates. Also America is not the world.

-Not many cultures have been kind to homosexuals and even South Africa persecuted blacks. You can't make that a Christian phenomenon. Although Christian history is full of appalling inhumanity. None of which can be supported by The Bible. Atheism as a cultural identity has not really had much opportunity to have a track record yet.

-So it is Ok to persecute people on things they have chosen to believe just not what they inherited genetically?

-Incoherent, really. I must improve my skills.

I didn't say science is the new religion, that is your addition. I was describing how people have a religious adherence to it (faith in it). Very similar to the dark ages when the priests were the final authority on all things; today it is the science that cannot be questioned. "How can you argue with science"? Is a common phrase in these types of discussions.

Yes if science is corrupted it is not scientific. But we are not always talking about organic chemistry or physics and the like. Quite a lot of what is covered under the banner of science are things like consensus, and untestable postulation. When it comes to spirituality science really has no foundation to make an opinion, yet people use science as their evidence against the spiritual realm.

Logic can only be trusted in the supernatural realm if one understands the logic of the supernatural.

Nothing is supernatural.

As if saying it makes it true...

Well in order for something to be Supernatural , it would have to be supernatural,(outside of nature)

our perceptions are limited to those with in Nature, unless one has Supernatural abilities,

so anything you are able to perceive is natural, and should be describable with in natural explanations.

Thus nothing is Supernatural

as I said unless of course you have Supernatural abilities in which case , please do tell.

[sirineou]

Nor is 'the West' the world. In many parts of 'the world' the punishment for coming out as atheist is death. The punishment for apostasy within Islam is death, granted (thankfully) many Islamic countries decide to ignore this divine commandment but it is there, it exists. That's 1.3 Billion people straight off the bat.

I do counselling for two charities. One deals with victims of abusive partners, mostly female but exclusively so. The other is for people in the southern states of the US who have come out as atheist and been shunned by their family, their friends and neighbours. Many lose their job too. These poor people have their whole world taken away from them, not because of what they believe but because of what they don't. First point of call is to get them to attempt some form of reconciliation with their family. Sometimes it works but not often. Most leave town, leave state actually but a large number simply fall through a hole and end up killing themselves, becoming drug addicts, drunkards and/or homeless.

It's not easy doing what I do and it's emotionally stressful and very draining. It is not healthy to inflict this on myself but I do it anyway because I care about people. Your almost off the cuff remark (top quote above) brings a tear to my eye.

In many parts of the world admitting atheism could get you in hot water. In some it can cost you your life, in others exclude you from the mainstream. Leaving Islam and the US aside, even in Europe there are countries with a national religion, and a confessed atheist would have a problem being elected dog catcher. But as it was said even by our opposition " maybe 20 years ago but not now" which makes my point that as

resistance to Atheism decreases the Number of Atheists increase. a point reflected in new statistics.

This is a story told by an openly Atheist female in a counseling meeting as you have described, Her family was shunning her and her mother was very upset at her. " so my mother yelled at me , not believing in god is one thing, but an ATHEIST? what is wrong with you"

The thing about God is everyone is dying to see if He exists.

If you say 'everyone' then you include me. I'm not dying to see if it exists. I'm quite comfortable with my thoughts on the matter - articulated in some of m earlier posts.

You can say, "Everyone is dying to see if Superman (or Thor, or Nadabrahmananda, or Prester John, or Popeye or Atlantis or.....) exists" ....but I doubt everyone has that void in their lives.

actually I agree with Kanuckamuk, many people are,, dying to see god, the problem is they are taking many others with them.

[notmyself]

This is a story told by an openly Atheist female in a counseling meeting as you have described, Her family was shunning her and her mother was very upset at her. " so my mother yelled at me , not believing in god is one thing, but an ATHEIST? what is wrong with you"

That is pretty normal with the people I deal with or rather than that line has often been presented to them. It is in fact the first step in reconciliation with family. You have to remember that atheism is very often though of as Devil worship in the southern states. In my experience and I've been doing this type of help for many years, if the family cannot understand or simply refuses to accept that atheism is nothing more than a rejection of theistic claims then it is game over.

[rgs2001uk]

^^^^^,

personally I blame McCartysim, the effects of which can still be found today.

Wont even bother getting into whether Obama is a Muslim or not.

Jeez you couldnt make this shit up.

For all you religious people, I keep hearing about, "the right to life", where is my right to die?

Please tell me why I should be kept hooked up to a machine against my will?

Where is my right to die with dignity on a time of my choosing?

Edited January 23, 2014 by rgs2001uk

[pastafarian]

[sirineou]

This is a story told by an openly Atheist female in a counseling meeting as you have described, Her family was shunning her and her mother was very upset at her. " so my mother yelled at me , not believing in god is one thing, but an ATHEIST? what is wrong with you"

That is pretty normal with the people I deal with or rather than that line has often been presented to them. It is in fact the first step in reconciliation with family. You have to remember that atheism is very often though of as Devil worship in the southern states. In my experience and I've been doing this type of help for many years, if the family cannot understand or simply refuses to accept that atheism is nothing more than a rejection of theistic claims then it is game over.

You dont have to tell me about the south, I split my time between New York , Daytona Florida. Thailand, and when ever I have time Europe where I still have a lot of family.

In Daytona I am a life long member of a fraternal organisation , in which I had the privilege of being elected a Master of the lodge representing the Daytona area, as such during my tenure, I had the opportunity to travel to all the other lodges in Florida, and some in Georgia,and the level of close minded bigotry I encountered, even among supposedly educated people in high positions, was mind boggling and scary. If I was to admite to any of them that I am an Atheist I would be TOAST. even now. period ,end of story , with out a doubt. so fast it will make make head spin.

[notmyself]

You dont have to tell me about the south, I split my time between New York , Daytona Florida. Thailand, and when ever I have time Europe where I still have a lot of family.

In Daytona I am a life long member of a fraternal organisation , in which I had the privilege of being elected a Master of the lodge representing the Daytona area, as such during my tenure, I had the opportunity to travel to all the other lodges in Florida, and some in Georgia,and the level of close minded bigotry I encountered, even among supposedly educated people in high positions, was mind boggling and scary. If I was to admite to any of them that I am an Atheist I would be TOAST. even now. period ,end of story , with out a doubt. so fast it will make make head spin.

Many years ago I done a fact finding greyhound bus trip from Cal to Florida over a period of 3 months. As a Brit. I was well welcomes in almost all places but I had to keep my trap shut. NC was the worst I found.

[rgs2001uk]

This is a story told by an openly Atheist female in a counseling meeting as you have described, Her family was shunning her and her mother was very upset at her. " so my mother yelled at me , not believing in god is one thing, but an ATHEIST? what is wrong with you"

That is pretty normal with the people I deal with or rather than that line has often been presented to them. It is in fact the first step in reconciliation with family. You have to remember that atheism is very often though of as Devil worship in the southern states. In my experience and I've been doing this type of help for many years, if the family cannot understand or simply refuses to accept that atheism is nothing more than a rejection of theistic claims then it is game over.

You dont have to tell me about the south, I split my time between New York , Daytona Florida. Thailand, and when ever I have time Europe where I still have a lot of family.

In Daytona I am a life long member of a fraternal organisation , in which I had the privilege of being elected a Master of the lodge representing the Daytona area, as such during my tenure, I had the opportunity to travel to all the other lodges in Florida, and some in Georgia,and the level of close minded bigotry I encountered, even among supposedly educated people in high positions, was mind boggling and scary. If I was to admite to any of them that I am an Atheist I would be TOAST. even now. period ,end of story , with out a doubt. so fast it will make make head spin.

Long live Prince Hall.

[Neeranam]

[Neeranam]

I met the following Yogi in Mount Abu , India and it was a remarkable experience. When I was talking to her I couldn't see her head but all I saw was light. No drugs involved but the feeling of some presence was much better than any drug I've ever tried. The vdo is actually done in a way that was like the experience.She is actually a channel for receiving messages from God.

Edited January 23, 2014 by Neeranam

[sirineou]

I met the following Yogi in Mount Abu , India and it was a remarkable experience. When I was talking to her I couldn't see her head but all I saw was light. No drugs involved but the feeling of some presence was much better than any drug I've ever tried. The vdo is actually done in a way that was like the experience.She is actually a channel for receiving messages from God.

these Monty Python skits are very Funny Thank you for sharing

and now for something completely different.

[notmyself]

May be of interest to some

[rgs2001uk]

I met the following Yogi in Mount Abu , India and it was a remarkable experience. When I was talking to her I couldn't see her head but all I saw was light. No drugs involved but the feeling of some presence was much better than any drug I've ever tried. The vdo is actually done in a way that was like the experience.She is actually a channel for receiving messages from God.

I have attended more Hawkwind concerts than I can shake a stick at, they also were remarkable experiences.

When listening to "The Captain" and the boys I also couldnt see them, strobes and dry ice prohibited it, yes I saw the light, I realised Lemmy was playing like a gawd.

Correct no drugs or artificial stimulants needed, just listen to Hawkwind, Space Ritual.

Set the controls to the heart of the sun.

[Dimpys Dad]

If I said dog poop makes good peanut butter, you would say it does not exist?

555555555555

[sirineou]

If I said dog poop makes good peanut butter, you would say it does not exist?

555555555555

What does not exist, Dog poop or peanut butter? I personally have it on good authority that they both exist.

Any one gives you a hard time about that , send them to me, I possess empirical data supporting the existence of both

As to whether dog pop makes good peanut butter, you would have to provide more information.

Obviously my friend you are not a connoisseur of dog poo

What kind of dog?

More information on the dogs diet

what criteria constitutes "good peanut butter"?

I personally happen to hate peanut butter, and think that all of it tastes like dog poo.

[Dimpys Dad]

^^^^^,

personally I blame McCartysim, the effects of which can still be found today.

Wont even bother getting into whether Obama is a Muslim or not.

Jeez you couldnt make this shit up.

For all you religious people, I keep hearing about, "the right to life", where is my right to die?

Please tell me why I should be kept hooked up to a machine against my will?

Where is my right to die with dignity on a time of my choosing?

Same here. I thought a living will take care of those who don't want to be kept alive in a vegetative state.

[notmyself]

If I said dog poop makes good peanut butter, you would say it does not exist?

555555555555

What does not exist, Dog poop or peanut butter? I personally have it on good authority that they both exist.

Any one gives you a hard time about that , send them to me, I possess empirical data supporting the existence of both

As to whether dog pop makes good peanut butter, you would have to provide more information.

Obviously my friend you are not a connoisseur of dog poo

What kind of dog?

More information on the dogs diet

what criteria constitutes "good peanut butter"?

I personally happen to hate peanut butter, and think that all of it tastes like dog poo.

This?

[sirineou]

This?

5555555555555555555

See what I mean about "the low hanging fruit of Christendom"

It is so easy , like stealing candy from a baby,

[Rajab Al Zarahni]

If I said dog poop makes good peanut butter, you would say it does not exist?

555555555555

What does not exist, Dog poop or peanut butter? I personally have it on good authority that they both exist.

Any one gives you a hard time about that , send them to me, I possess empirical data supporting the existence of both

As to whether dog pop makes good peanut butter, you would have to provide more information.

Obviously my friend you are not a connoisseur of dog poo

What kind of dog?

More information on the dogs diet

what criteria constitutes "good peanut butter"?

I personally happen to hate peanut butter, and think that all of it tastes like dog poo.

"Obviously my friend you are not a connoisseur of dog poo "

....... or peanut butter !

[notmyself]

Many religions now come before us with ingratiating smirks and outspread hands, like an unctuous merchant in a bazaar. They offer consolation and solidarity and uplift, competing as they do in a marketplace. But we have a right to remember how barbarically they behaved when they were strong and were making an offer that people could not refuse.

Edited January 23, 2014 by notmyself

[notmyself]

[canuckamuck]

I don't think people, at least in the west, have any fear of revealing their atheism. They probably did 20 years ago but not now.

Also America is not the world.

Nor is 'the West' the world. In many parts of 'the world' the punishment for coming out as atheist is death. The punishment for apostasy within Islam is death, granted (thankfully) many Islamic countries decide to ignore this divine commandment but it is there, it exists. That's 1.3 Billion people straight off the bat.

I do counselling for two charities. One deals with victims of abusive partners, mostly female but exclusively so. The other is for people in the southern states of the US who have come out as atheist and been shunned by their family, their friends and neighbours. Many lose their job too. These poor people have their whole world taken away from them, not because of what they believe but because of what they don't. First point of call is to get them to attempt some form of reconciliation with their family. Sometimes it works but not often. Most leave town, leave state actually but a large number simply fall through a hole and end up killing themselves, becoming drug addicts, drunkards and/or homeless.

It's not easy doing what I do and it's emotionally stressful and very draining. It is not healthy to inflict this on myself but I do it anyway because I care about people. Your almost off the cuff remark (top quote above) brings a tear to my eye.

Once again my understanding of America is limited, I have only been to Disneyland and Montana. And I haven't been there since I was a teenager.

However I do understand what you mean. It is the families of people who change their faith or abandon it that are likely to have the strongest reaction. I have met a man in Pakistan who has survived two murder attempts from his own family because he renounced Islam. And a man in Thailand who as a teenager was held down while his mother burned his chest with an iron because he left Buddhism. I have not heard any equally violent accounts from ex Christians I have met, but I do know that it can tear a family apart. I see how my post was too simplistic. I was speaking more of how people who are atheists seem very pleased and excited to let everyone know about it.

[notmyself]

I was speaking more of how people who are atheists seem very pleased and excited to let everyone know about it.

I'll tell you a story but not now, I'm off to bed.

[canuckamuck]

Perhaps you prefer the term spiritual to supernatural. It is hard to judge what will satisfy someone who claims peanut butter doesn't exist.

I have a strong personal belief that peanut butter and God both exist but if you won't go for peanut butter I have strong doubts that you will believe in God..

Whether it’s with a good luck dance, whispering a curse or prayers sent directly to God, half of American football fans believe supernatural forces are at play right alongside their favorite quarterback.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2544076/Who-God-rooting-Super-Bowl-Half-American-fans-think-supernatural-forces-decide-wins-football-games.html

I realize you are wanting to turn logic to semantic but what for? I'm not playing semantics with you.

50% Americans! I moved to Thailand to be among people whom I consider rational.

The terms spiritual and supernatural are not the same; not even close.

Do you actually believe that the terms spiritual and supernatural are not even close?

su·per·nat·u·ral [soo-per-nach-er-uhl, -nach-ruhl]

adjective

1.

of, pertaining to, or being above or beyond what is natural; unexplainable by natural law orphenomena; abnormal.

2.

of, pertaining to, characteristic of, or attributed to God or a deity.

3.

of a superlative degree; preternatural: a missile of supernatural speed.

4.

of, pertaining to, or attributed to ghosts, goblins, or other unearthly beings; eerie; occult.

Would the behavior of spirits or the fact that many consider God to be spirit, The Holy Spirit in fact, fit under these definitions?

Once again your logic is confounding. Nearly 100 percent of Thais believe in some form of the supernatural (spiritual realm). Far more atheists back in America.