Are you an Atheist/Believer?

[canuckamuck]

There a quite a lot of things that suggest creation, order out of chaos, the laws of entropy apparently selectively reversed. The unbelievable odds against the occurrence of life, something instead of nothing.

Where is your evidence that suggests no creator?

[AYJAYDEE]

There a quite a lot of things that suggest creation, order out of chaos, the laws of entropy apparently selectively reversed. The unbelievable odds against the occurrence of life, something instead of nothing.

Where is your evidence that suggests no creator?

your suggestions arent evidence any more than the presumption that a creator woud not allow the suffering is evidence

[canuckamuck]

There a quite a lot of things that suggest creation, order out of chaos, the laws of entropy apparently selectively reversed. The unbelievable odds against the occurrence of life, something instead of nothing.

Where is your evidence that suggests no creator?

your suggestions arent evidence any more than the presumption that a creator woud not allow the suffering is evidence

My response was not about the degree of evidence. It was that some details in favor of the creator argument exists. You are attempting to introduce a straw man. Based on how you feel a creator would operate. A creator behaving in a way contrary to your conception of a creator would not be evidence of anything.

[AYJAYDEE]

There a quite a lot of things that suggest creation, order out of chaos, the laws of entropy apparently selectively reversed. The unbelievable odds against the occurrence of life, something instead of nothing.

Where is your evidence that suggests no creator?

your suggestions arent evidence any more than the presumption that a creator woud not allow the suffering is evidence

My response was not about the degree of evidence. It was that some details in favor of the creator argument exists. You are attempting to introduce a straw man. Based on how you feel a creator would operate. A creator behaving in a way contrary to your conception of a creator would not be evidence of anything.

and neither are your observations. that was my point pal. I have no need to provide evidence to disprove anything no one has ever seen or metany more than I should provide eveidence that flying pink elephants dont exist. its up to believers to prove the existance of their imaginations.

[canuckamuck]

There a quite a lot of things that suggest creation, order out of chaos, the laws of entropy apparently selectively reversed. The unbelievable odds against the occurrence of life, something instead of nothing.

Where is your evidence that suggests no creator?

your suggestions arent evidence any more than the presumption that a creator woud not allow the suffering is evidence

My response was not about the degree of evidence. It was that some details in favor of the creator argument exists. You are attempting to introduce a straw man. Based on how you feel a creator would operate. A creator behaving in a way contrary to your conception of a creator would not be evidence of anything.

and neither are your observations. that was my point pal. I have no need to provide evidence to disprove anything no one has ever seen or metany more than I should provide eveidence that flying pink elephants dont exist. its up to believers to prove the existance of their imaginations.

Now you are introducing silly things instead of making serious debate. There is no parallel between the mystery of order in the universe or the beginning of life, with flying pink elephants. Life and order in the universe have been proven to exist and continue to be the subject of hard science. Your argument diminishes peoples ability to take you seriously.

[AYJAYDEE]

Now you are introducing silly things instead of making serious debate. There is no parallel between the mystery of order in the universe or the beginning of life, with flying pink elephants. Life and order in the universe have been proven to exist and continue to be the subject of hard science. Your argument diminishes peoples ability to take you seriously.

lol! talk about changing subjects!!!order in the universe has nothing at all to do with the existance of a creator. your arguement cant even be called an arguement. and flying pink elephants, like a creator must be proved. both are unlikely and so far not performed.

[wedders]

Just come across this thread and I haven't the time to read through 142 pages, but a well known quote perfectly sums it up:

"I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."

[AYJAYDEE]

Just come across this thread and I haven't the time to read through 142 pages, but a well known quote perfectly sums it up:

"I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."

buddhists dont dismiss all other possible gods. they just deny the powers of creation reside in them.

[wedders]

Dismiss = 'have no belief in'. Most Buddhists I know would support that statement.

[AYJAYDEE]

Dismiss = 'have no belief in'. Most Buddhists I know would support that statement.

as buddhist teaching recognizes:

Types of sentient beings in Buddhist cosmology:

1. Gods (Devas)
2. Humans
3. Animals (including birds, fish, reptiles, mammals, insects etc.)
4. Titans or demons (Asuras)
5. Hungry ghosts (Pretas)
6. Denizens of the hell-realms

I would suggest the buddhists you know are not following the teaching.

[wedders]

If they have no powers of creation, salvation or judgment, then they are 'supernatural' in concept only. And I repeat, most (Western as it happens) Buddhists I know are concentrating on more important areas of Buddhist teachings, and have no belief in deities whether of the omnipotent omniscient variety, or the rather irrelevant supernatural beings in Buddhist mythology.

[canuckamuck]

Now you are introducing silly things instead of making serious debate. There is no parallel between the mystery of order in the universe or the beginning of life, with flying pink elephants. Life and order in the universe have been proven to exist and continue to be the subject of hard science. Your argument diminishes peoples ability to take you seriously.

lol! talk about changing subjects!!!order in the universe has nothing at all to do with the existance of a creator. your arguement cant even be called an arguement. and flying pink elephants, like a creator must be proved. both are unlikely and so far not performed.

Order in the universe may or may not have everything to with a creator, and is obviously, historically the main basis for the pro-creator side of this millennia old discussion. You are only providing a dismissive argument with no consideration of what has been said.

[canuckamuck]

Dismiss = 'have no belief in'. Most Buddhists I know would support that statement.

as buddhist teaching recognizes:

Types of sentient beings in Buddhist cosmology:

1. Gods (Devas)
2. Humans
3. Animals (including birds, fish, reptiles, mammals, insects etc.)
4. Titans or demons (Asuras)
5. Hungry ghosts (Pretas)
6. Denizens of the hell-realms

I would suggest the buddhists you know are not following the teaching.

Fascinating that today this is your point of view when yesterday you called me shallow for suggesting exactly the same and even said the Triptaka does not support the multiple plains of spiritual beings. See below

Buddhism contains multiple plains of spiritual existence. Some of these creatures live for hundreds of thousands of years. Though they may not have a specific God, considering there has been more than 1 Buddha, they do carry on like the last Buddha does personal intercede for them.

So they are not precisely theistic, but they are certainly believers. So in regards to the title of the thread I guess you can call them Atheist believers.

Where does that fit on the scale?

the lay people might believe in intercession but the tripitaka does not teach that at all.

You really are talking out of both faces today

[johnbs]

It is sometimes said that Atheism is blind faith in a strange proposition that the Universe

originated in a cipher and aimlessly rushes no where, That's practically impossible to believe.

I am not ashamed to say I am a believer,

[AYJAYDEE]

It is sometimes said that Atheism is blind faith in a strange proposition that the Universe

originated in a cipher and aimlessly rushes no where, That's practically impossible to believe.

I am not ashamed to say I am a believer,

the universe didnt originate and it is not going anywhere. and I dont need a god to tell me that

[AYJAYDEE]

You really are talking out of both faces today

you continue to twist words pal. ther is no intercession by any of those categories and the tripitaka makes that clear. some lay people may believe they do but that doesnt make it fact.

[AYJAYDEE]

If they have no powers of creation, salvation or judgment, then they are 'supernatural' in concept only. And I repeat, most (Western as it happens) Buddhists I know are concentrating on more important areas of Buddhist teachings, and have no belief in deities whether of the omnipotent omniscient variety, or the rather irrelevant supernatural beings in Buddhist mythology.

your western buddhist friends are a miniscule miniority.

[AYJAYDEE]

Now you are introducing silly things instead of making serious debate. There is no parallel between the mystery of order in the universe or the beginning of life, with flying pink elephants. Life and order in the universe have been proven to exist and continue to be the subject of hard science. Your argument diminishes peoples ability to take you seriously.

lol! talk about changing subjects!!!order in the universe has nothing at all to do with the existance of a creator. your arguement cant even be called an arguement. and flying pink elephants, like a creator must be proved. both are unlikely and so far not performed.

Order in the universe may or may not have everything to with a creator, and is obviously, historically the main basis for the pro-creator side of this millennia old discussion. You are only providing a dismissive argument with no consideration of what has been said.

it may have been but that doesnt make it valid. and it does nothing to prove the existance in a creator no matter what you pretend.

[sirineou]

There is no creator.

Sounds like an opinion and one that you can not prove.

I can prove it,

just as soon as you can prove there is no tooth fairy .

If we look at it from the perspective that there is no creator, then where is the evidence to shoot that down?.

where are the evidence that there is a creator? Remember we are not the ones making the claims, you guys are.

we don't need to produce anything

It is like you telling me , there is a monster under my bed. All I need say is, "no there s not", it is up to you to convince me that there is.

As Others have said, you can not prove a negative, I cant prove to you that there is no monster under my bed, If I said to you, l Looked and there isn't one, all you need to say is, sure there is , you just cant see it, it is invisible!

Come to think of it,this is exactly what you guys say about your God.

He is invisible,but he needs money, lots and lots of money, Pope needs a new bulletproof Pope-mobile to protect him from people who want to kill him.

Well, wait a second, You guys have a creator who is intimately involved in you lives, , who can stop the Sun from revolving around the Earth , so that the Israelites can smite their enemies, But he cant keep his top guy safe?

End of rant .

[AYJAYDEE]

where are the evidence that there is a creator? Remember we are not the ones making the claims, you guys are.

we don't need to produce anything

It is like you telling me , there is a monster under my bed. All I need say is, "no there s not", it is up to you to convince me that there is.

As Others have said, you can not prove a negative, I cant prove to you that there is no monster under my bed, If I said to you, l Looked and there isn't one, all you need to say is, sure there is , you just cant see it, it is invisible!

Come to think of it,this is exactly what you guys say about your God.

He is invisible,but he needs money, lots and lots of money, Pope needs a new bulletproof Pope-mobile to protect him from people who want to kill him.

Well, wait a second, You guys have a creator who is intimately involved in you lives, , who can stop the Sun from revolving around the Earth , so that the Israelites can smite their enemies, But he cant keep his top guy safe?

End of rant .

it seems he said the same as you??

[ExpatJ]

I was a was a non believer before I had kids. Now I have kids I am on the way to becoming Christian because I want to think that when I die and later my kids, that we will be reunited in heaven . That's something worth believing in.

Edited February 11, 2015 by ExpatJ

[sirineou]

I was a was a non believer before I had kids. Now I have kids I am on the way to becoming Christian because I want to think that when I die and later my kids, that we will be reunited in heaven . That's something worth believing in.

Sure, who would not want that?

If there is one, please take me with you, I just hope we dont find a bunch of Muslims there,

wouldn't suck if you became a Christian to be with your children in heaven, and when you died , you found out God was Muslim and you can't go to heaven because you drunk too much beer, and what about those Bacon Cheeseburgers,

They were Aloy mak mak.

Actually, come to think of it, the Muslims have a better deal, Not only do you get reunited with your children in Heaven, but you get 47 virgins also . Now that.s a deal I can get behind,

Literally!!!

The only problem is,,,, looking at my self in the mirror,

How much of a heaven would it be for the 47 virgins? not to mention that they would not be virgins for long virgins have a way of turning in to nagging wives, 47 of them

47 nagging wives..... can heaven be both heaven and hell? and if so, would we call it Earth?

Edited February 11, 2015 by sirineou

[wedders]

If they have no powers of creation, salvation or judgment, then they are 'supernatural' in concept only. And I repeat, most (Western as it happens) Buddhists I know are concentrating on more important areas of Buddhist teachings, and have no belief in deities whether of the omnipotent omniscient variety, or the rather irrelevant supernatural beings in Buddhist mythology.

your western buddhist friends are a miniscule miniority.

Secular Buddhists are quite numerous, but quite naturally in developing countries such as Thailand with relatively low standards of education and exposure to outside ideas, superstitions persist more doggedly. Even certain high profile public figures allegedly belief in black magic.

I am not sure why you are picking an argument though, I am a pretty hard atheist myself, thought that was very clear.

[nithisa78]

The concepts of an almighty power or not have and will probably remain long talks.

Be your idea of a good person and see how that works . . . or not.

I don't always agree but I'm not afraid of my life.

Edited February 11, 2015 by nithisa78

[ExpatJ]

Free Sq

I was a was a non believer before I had kids. Now I have kids I am on the way to becoming Christian because I want to think that when I die and later my kids, that we will be reunited in heaven . That's something worth believing in.

Sure, who would not want that?

If there is one, please take me with you, I just hope we dont find a bunch of Muslims there,

wouldn't suck if you became a Christian to be with your children in heaven, and when you died , you found out God was Muslim and you can't go to heaven because you drunk too much beer, and what about those Bacon Cheeseburgers,

They were Aloy mak mak.

Actually, come to think of it, the Muslims have a better deal, Not only do you get reunited with your children in Heaven, but you get 47 virgins also . Now that.s a deal I can get behind,

Literally!!!

The only problem is,,,, looking at my self in the mirror,

How much of a heaven would it be for the 47 virgins? not to mention that they would not be virgins for long virgins have a way of turning in to nagging wives, 47 of them

47 nagging wives..... can heaven be both heaven and hell? and if so, would we call it Earth?

You tink too mutt Edited February 11, 2015 by ExpatJ

[nithisa78]

I was a was a non believer before I had kids. Now I have kids I am on the way to becoming Christian because I want to think that when I die and later my kids, that we will be reunited in heaven . That's something worth believing in.

You don't need to be Christian to have an imagination. . .or believe.

[ExpatJ]

I was a was a non believer before I had kids. Now I have kids I am on the way to becoming Christian because I want to think that when I die and later my kids, that we will be reunited in heaven . That's something worth believing in.

You don't need to be Christian to have an imagination. . .or believe.

True, but it helps

[nithisa78]

where are the evidence that there is a creator? Remember we are not the ones making the claims, you guys are.

we don't need to produce anything

It is like you telling me , there is a monster under my bed. All I need say is, "no there s not", it is up to you to convince me that there is.

As Others have said, you can not prove a negative, I cant prove to you that there is no monster under my bed, If I said to you, l Looked and there isn't one, all you need to say is, sure there is , you just cant see it, it is invisible!

Come to think of it,this is exactly what you guys say about your God.

He is invisible,but he needs money, lots and lots of money, Pope needs a new bulletproof Pope-mobile to protect him from people who want to kill him.

Well, wait a second, You guys have a creator who is intimately involved in you lives, , who can stop the Sun from revolving around the Earth , so that the Israelites can smite their enemies, But he cant keep his top guy safe?

End of rant .

too much goodness to wrap your heart around.

ditto

[luk AJ]

Davaun T Kurcz

In a mother’s womb were two babies. One asked the other: “Do you believe in life after delivery?” The other replied, “Why, of course. There has to be something after delivery. Maybe we are here to prepare ourselves for what we will be later.”

“Nonsense” said the first. “There is no life after delivery. What kind of life would that be?”

The second said, “I don’t know, but there will be more light than here. Maybe we will walk with our legs and eat from our mouths. Maybe we will have other senses that we can’t understand now.”

The first replied, “That is absurd. Walking is impossible. And eating with our mouths? Ridiculous! The umbilical cord supplies nutrition and everything we need. But the umbilical cord is so short. Life after delivery is to be logically excluded.”

The second insisted, “Well I think there is something and maybe it’s different than it is here. Maybe we won’t need this physical cord anymore.”

The first replied, “Nonsense. And moreover if there is life, then why has no one has ever come back from there? Delivery is the end of life, and in the after-delivery there is nothing but darkness and silence and oblivion. It takes us nowhere.”

“Well, I don’t know,” said the second, “but certainly we will meet Mother and she will take care of us.”

The first replied “Mother? You actually believe in Mother? That’s laughable. If Mother exists then where is She now?”

The second said, “She is all around us. We are surrounded by her. We are of Her. It is in Her that we live. Without Her this world would not and could not exist.”

Said the first: “Well I don’t see Her, so it is only logical that She doesn’t exist.”

To which the second replied, “Sometimes, when you’re in silence and you focus and you really listen, you can perceive Her presence, and you can hear Her loving voice, calling down from above.

[notmyself]

I was a was a non believer before I had kids. Now I have kids I am on the way to becoming Christian because I want to think that when I die and later my kids, that we will be reunited in heaven . That's something worth believing in.

AKA wish fulfillment or the belief in something for the purpose that it may dry your eyes rather than because it is true or correct.