Are you an Atheist/Believer?

[HerbalEd]

Whenever I try to understand the vastness of the universe and how it came about (was created?) I literally start getting anxious and dizzy. How can anyone ever "understand" such. Our mental capacity and so-called logic is far, far inferior to do so.

I definitely don't believe in any type of conventionally conceived "god" that I can talk to or that thinks about me. However, I do think ... better yet, feel ... there is "something" out there. But beyond that I know nothing about what he/she/they/it is. Again, how could I possible know or understand something like that from by pin-prick of existence within the infinite vastness of the universe and beyond?

And so ... not that it may matters to anyone/anything but me ... I like to acknowledge that "something" (that I call God) and thank and adore it for the mystery and fascination of all creation (if indeed it was "created") and of all living things ... and especially for my own creation and life. I guess you could call that "acknowledgment" and "thanks" my form of "prayer" ... and my formula for prayer is 90% thank-yous and 10% favors (i.e., "My cup already runneth over, but if you do want to give me more, here's my shopping list.")

I have a personal theory about prayer: Even if there is absolutely nothing out there and so there's nothing/no-one to "hear" your prayers, I still think prayer is helpful. I see it as talking to our true inner self ... the nice, benevolent, loving, enlightened, wise, "godly" person we really want to be. Yeah, no one may be listening to my prayers, but I am.

Replace "prayer" with "meditation" or "reflection" and you've all the benefit without the shackles.

Whatever gets you through the night. Personally I'm very comfortable with the word prayer.

Besides my particular style of prayer, I also meditate but in the more traditional way ... in that meditation is not something you do ... it's something you don't do. Don't mean to be cryptic, but my understanding and teaching about meditation is that one clears the mind of all thought.

Edited January 4, 2014 by HerbalEd

[fvw53]

In his recent book "A Universe from Nothing" (about what is known of our universe), the atheist Prof Lawrence Kraus mentions that - when he wrote the book in 2012 - only about five percent of our own universe is more or less known and and the remaining 95 pct are dark matter and dark energy.

With "dark" they do not mean "black" but simply things they have no clue about and - at this moment - no way to access.

I will try to make a comparison...

Suppose the medical world can only study or have access to 5% of the human body ...would any medical scientist dare to make serious and final conclusions based on this?

My opinion is that mankind must learn to differentiate the meaning of the words "to know" and "to believe"

- we can say that we "know" if we can have access to and measure the size, the temperature, the colour, the weight, etc...of things

- if we do not have this access then we must decide to believe or not believe

About God we are all believers : "yes believers" and "non believers" because nobody on this planet has the brain power to come up with scientific evidence which proves or rejects the existence of God.

In the end I consider this as an ultimate justice so that everybody from the humblest of minds to the most powerful brains has the same hurdle when facing the "WHY" of our existence.

[Guest]

Notice to the Atheist. How the hell did all this begin?, it just didnt happen. Big bang is a load of crap we simply dont know enough and have only scratched the surface. One nano second before the big bang where exactly was this? had to be somewhere. Belive me someone had to light the pilot light and this is not from a religious standpoint its just logic, you dont get something from nothing. All atheists I have met or even listened to are misterable people. You only have to look at the beauty of this earth and universe and the order of the universe to know that there is a loving higher power.

We don't know, but let's find out. That's the point.

It was not too long ago, when we believed that the Earth is flat and the Sun revolves around Earth. Now we know a little bit more.

Science does not give ultimate answers. However as the knowledge increases, we get a little bit closer to it. The bubble where we live now is certain size. The further we study and gain knowledge, the larger the bubble is. Yet we don't know what the 42 consists of. We just know a bit better way to model our Universe.

[ChoakMyDee]

I'm a #1. I was raised in an athiest family so I didn't really have any religious prejudices like so many people I've met that have had very negative religious experiences as children. It was circumstances in my life that brought me to a point where I had a spiritual awakening and experienced the presence of God so there is no question of course after an experience like that. For those that still debate or call themselves athiest, I completely understand because if you haven't had an experience, how would you know? I believe the idea of God lies deep within every one of us and when it happens or if it happens is an individual thing I guess. Some people die, apparently, having never experienced it.

"For those that believe, no explanation is necessary; for those that don't, no explanation is possible."

[HerbalEd]

The entire basis of the OP is only designed to provoke. The OP mentions belief, faith and religion as if they are the same thing - the seven classifications are bogus and have no meaning in reality.

Simply because you BELIEVE in something does not mean that you put your FAITH in that something, and certainly does not mean that you will follow a man-made RELIGION based on that something. Religion ( derived from the Greek 'religos' meaning restriction) is merely another form of governance.

Thanks for the opportunity to bash on others for their beliefs, faith or religion ...... but I choose not to participate.

The word religion comes from the Latin 'religare', and means to bind, or re-bind...re-connect to the higher power.

Interesting. And in Sanskrit "yoga" literally means "union." However, although in the west yoga is usually considered a religion, it is not. Yes, it's very often associated with Hinduism, but that doesn't make it a religion. I know Christians, Jews, Muslims, and atheist who practice yoga for positively promoting their physical and spiritual health. And I find it very ignorant when fundamentalists Christians ... and Muslims ... are so intimidated by their children being taught yoga.

[Kluckmeister]

In his recent book "A Universe from Nothing" (about what is known of our universe), the atheist Prof Lawrence Kraus mentions that - when he wrote the book in 2012 - only about five percent of our own universe is more or less known and and the remaining 95 pct are dark matter and dark energy.

With "dark" they do not mean "black" but simply things they have no clue about and - at this moment - no way to access.

I will try to make a comparison...

Suppose the medical world can only study or have access to 5% of the human body ...would any medical scientist dare to make serious and final conclusions based on this?

My opinion is that mankind must learn to differentiate the meaning of the words "to know" and "to believe"

- we can say that we "know" if we can have access to and measure the size, the temperature, the colour, the weight, etc...of things

- if we do not have this access then we must decide to believe or not believe

About God we are all believers : "yes believers" and "non believers" because nobody on this planet has the brain power to come up with scientific evidence which proves or rejects the existence of God.

In the end I consider this as an ultimate justice so that everybody from the humblest of minds to the most powerful brains has the same hurdle when facing the "WHY" of our existence.

Wonderfully put. I seldom have such clarity of thought on a subject so I appreciate a well crafted response.

I believe that humanity will never be able to conclusively prove the existence or non existence of a higher power even if the human race continues it scientific progress at the present rate for an infinite number of years. We may get closer and closer to an answer without ever arriving at it but that being the case, the progress toward the goal still makes the struggle worthwhile because as you put it the greatest and the humblest minds will always seek to know the "WHY" of their existence.

Personally, I just don't know and am therefore right in the middle as an agnostic. I would like to believe living as an ethical humanist will get me in the door (heaven) if there is a higher power and if there is not then I will never know it as I will cease to exist after I die.

[Ulysses G.]

However, although in the west yoga is usually considered a religion, it is not.

Really? This is the first time in my life that I have ever heard of anyone considering yoga a "religion". Most people that I have met, consider it to be some sort of exotic stretching exercise.

[bonobo]

This thread is going well with civil posts even when disagreeing. Please keep it up.

[greytown]

For those who dismiss the Bible as mere mythology with no basis in logic or reality, you might want to ask what exactly is this book trying to sell you? To put it at it's simplest, the Bible is telling us to obey the ten commandments and to not commit any of the seven deadly sins. If we all lived by these rules the world would certainly be a better place.

However the temptations of evil is strong and man's will is weak. We are challenged to keep on the right path despite all the obstacles, temptations, lies and countless false doctrines.

The post modern approach to religion is the "take what you like and dismiss what you don't" as if religion is an open buffet where you can pick and choose what beliefs suit you best personally in a DIY approach to spiritually. It's no surprise that in this buffet the "punishment by eternal damnation" is not a popular dish.

[Guest]

I believe that humanity will never be able to conclusively prove the existence or non existence of a higher power even if the human race continues it scientific progress at the present rate for an infinite number of years. We may get closer and closer to an answer without ever arriving at it but that being the case, the progress toward the goal still makes the struggle worthwhile because as you put it the greatest and the humblest minds will always seek to know the "WHY" of their existence.

Personally, I just don't know and am therefore right in the middle as an agnostic. I would like to believe living as an ethical humanist will get me in the door (heaven) if there is a higher power and if there is not then I will never know it as I will cease to exist after I die.

I made an earlier post of how different groups of people would think if we would have an visit from higher powers (I put it as extra terrestrial, smarter aliens). It was supposed to be humours with an edge.

That event could put all the common believes together, the way people wish to project the reality they are living in.

And after a while, there would be an separation of beliefs once again.

We all want to understand our purposes, how insignificant it might be. Why and beyond.

Our physics and science in general is mostly based on what our own sensors and the devices we have been able to make can detect. At the end of the day, that might be only a fraction what the reality is and what our future generations will find.

The reason to push science forward is our curiosity. To gain more understanding, even if we'll never hit the bullseye.

For example. Currently we are able to catch a neutrino every now and then, in very special setups, yet billions of those are going through our bodies every second. Someday we will understand the nature of these particles or force fields and make applications around them. Then another day in the future we'll find something new, which will change the very fundamental things of our physics, which will be a leap forward, just like what Einstein managed to do earlier.

The fundamental beauty of science is to learn something new, even something we did not expect to find. After that it's engineering work to apply these new things to our everyday life.

[notmyself]

This thread is going well with civil posts even when disagreeing. Please keep it up.

+1 to the TV team.

[notmyself]

The post modern approach to religion is the "take what you like and dismiss what you don't" as if religion is an open buffet where you can pick and choose what beliefs suit you best personally in a DIY approach to spiritually. It's no surprise that in this buffet the "punishment by eternal damnation" is not a popular dish.

Cannot disagree with that.

[notmyself]

It's all the same thing. What's the difference in believing and believing NOT? You're still stuck in your belief system.

Doesn't make sense since theism is a claim and atheism is a rejection of said claim. If you say there is a 200' pink elephant outside your house but I reject your claim, I am saying nothing else, I am claiming nothing else.

If someone does not know the difference between guilty - not guilty and guilty - innocent then they should not be able to serve on a jury because they don't know what is being asked of them.

Edited January 4, 2014 by notmyself

[Mooner]

I dont believe in any Religion. I believe that many aspects of Religion are worthwhile.

Prayer or Meditation for example. I dont think it matters who you are praying to as you are really only talking to yourself.

Believe what you want but do not force your beliefs on other. We should all find our way

individually.

I do think if we could scrap religion and just take a few footnotes from it the world would be a better place

[OmegaRacer]

The post modern approach to religion is the "take what you like and dismiss what you don't" as if religion is an open buffet where you can pick and choose what beliefs suit you best personally in a DIY approach to spiritually. It's no surprise that in this buffet the "punishment by eternal damnation" is not a popular dish.

Cannot disagree with that.

I can.

The problem with religion is that it is an institution that arrogates to itself the right to be the exclusive gateway to one or the other God. In reality though, there's no need for a middle man, because each and every human being has that connection from birth. It's up to us to find it again (reconnect=religare=religion).

That's what the original message was and that's what spiritually inclined people nowadays are picking out of the often quite frankly disturbing doctrines that pollute religion.

Communion with a Higher Power is a deeply personal experience not a 'one-size-fits-all' solution to our spiritual needs.

I would therefore welcome and actually encourage a DIY approach to spirituality.

PS: Thank you Bonobo for reopening the thread.

[notmyself]

elieve what you want but do not force your beliefs on other. We should all find our way individually.

Fully. In such circumstances, how would religious belief propagate?

[notmyself]

That's what the original message was and that's what spiritually inclined people nowadays are picking out of the often quite frankly disturbing doctrines that pollute religion.

In doing so we have rid the world (mostly) of slavery, we do not denigrate women (mostly) and do not stone unruly children.

[Mooner]

I find it strange that people believe that we cant have morals without religion.

Without morals people could of never lived together. If the major religions are to be believed. 2000 yrs old.

Where was god before that and how did we survive without him

[onionluke]

m just another hot air ballllloonist.

[drx13]

I am a minister in "The Church of the Flying Spahgetti Monster"

I Like Bill Maher's take on the USA religious, the "Car on the Lawn States"

[notmyself]

I find it strange that people believe that we cant have morals without religion.

Without morals people could of never lived together. If the major religions are to be believed. 2000 yrs old.

Where was god before that and how did we survive without him

You may want to work at dating.

Apparently, morals were already given to man by God and at some stage he revealed them to us. Doesn't make sense? I agree.

Earliest work on morality is the golden rule in the analects of Confucius and this is an observation of human behaviour and NOT an edict. Take away the first four self serving (for God) commandments in the list of ten and you will find that it is an observation of how people in general were living at the time.

Given this thread has been reopened I should perhaps try to at least make it Thai related. Thai Buddhism (on the surface) also goes down the same line of the golden rule as in do unto others only which you would have done unto yourself. Nothing wrong with that.

[notmyself]

I'll chance my arm here....

21) Not to discuss moderation publicly in the open forum; this includes individual actions, and specific or general policies and issues.

The Mods have been kind enough to close then reopen a thread which was unrelated to Thailand as such but people were discussing the subject in a reasonable way and not breaking other rules. Keep it clean I say because these discussions generally only go on in another place. I have found it very interesting.

I don't like this Dawkins scale because it mixes belief and knowledge.

Gnosticism (from gnostikos, "learned", from Ancient Greek: γνῶσις gnōsis, knowledge)

Gnostic is a knowledge claim while agnostic is a rejection of the claim, theism is a belief (not knowledge) claim and atheism is a rejection of the theistic claim.

This is how you can have an agnostic theist and an agnostic atheist.

[anon8]

Fear is the mother of all religions.

Religion is the mother of all evil.

Bravo!

[MrGaoMungGawn]

When I first watched or listened to Dawkins, I was really put off by his almost rabid approach to his attacks on religion.

That was before my enlightenment.

Now, after much careful thought and personal debate, I have come around very much to his view about religion, although I am far less confrontational about it, and never try to force my views about religion on others, or I try, anyway.

I also realize that in Thailand, it is very important not to express a religious view that goes in direct conflict with what is accepted here. I am in no way bothered by any religious views I have seen in Thailand, and if I were to practice a religion, then I would want it to be the Buddhist religion as I have seen it here.

I feel most comfortable following not religion but the scientific method as closely as I can.

And, for those who require a religion, that is fine also, but do not let this cause you to negatively influence others, or become intolerant of others.

[anon8]

@ notmyself, how has my statement been demolished? I have simply stated, if there is a God you win, if there isn't, you lose nothing, pray tell how that is demolished? If you choose from whichever gallery you wish, if he/she is there you win, if not, nothing to lose.

You say "if there is a god, you win, if there isn't, you lose nothing"

Tell this to parents of murdered Palestian kid, to mom of murdered Isrealy kid!

In 17th century, men like me were burned alive by Catholics, I doubt that it was fun for the people who were burned alive.

Your quote is simply wrong.

The author of the quote you posted, sees religion as a harmless, fun game. It is anything but.

When it comes to religeon, we all lose. Big time.

This is such a weak argument.

You cannot blame religion for the act of some crazy individuals, this is called generalizing. There are over 2 billion Chrisitans in the world today and 1.6 billion muslims, (over 50% of the worlds population) the vast majority of which do not condone violence. The religion is not to blame, these are the acts of men.

Also, we are doing a good job of killing each other with non religious wars as well,, how many people have been killed over oil or any number of natural resources or territories,, what do you have to say about those killings? Who is to blame for those? It's pretty simple, it's man who is to blame.

Basically, religion is about living in peace to most people and treating fellow man with respect. The flaw in this is that man has a free will and we kill each other for any reason we can find. You should not tarnish religion as a whole as an evil entity because of lunatic suicide bombers etc,,,

So, we do not all lose big time.

Arab Israely conflict is driven only by religeous extremists of both sides. Nobody else!

Sane Israelis are against settlements on Palestinian territories, they want peace. But no, Bibi wont have any of that!

I'm quoting you now: 'you can't blame religeon for the act of some crazy individual, its called generalisation.'

No!

The suicide murderers are not crazy individuals, they are religeous people, the are not crazy (alltho argument can be made that being religeous is form of mental illness).

Suicide murderers are deeply religeous people. All they want is to fight the oppressor by blowing themselves and near by people up, in order to get to heaven, where 17 virgins are waiting this young man.

Your last line, 'no, we do not all lose big time' is simply not true.

Religeon brings only suffering, and misery.

In Africa, how many hundreds of thousands have died of AIDS, because Pope, and his local Catholic bishops in African nations are forbidding use of condoms?

The harm religeon has brought to mankind is immeasurable.

Religeon poisons everithing!

[notmyself]

where 17 virgins

72

I would also try to backup claims but that is just me.

Edited January 4, 2014 by notmyself

[ChoakMyDee]

I only wish that every discussion about God, religion, spirituality was this open minded and pleasant. It's been fun reading all of your input(and I read every post!).

[anon8]

I wonder of those that don't believe in God, when you are child/loved one is diagnosed with cancer and the doctors say there is nothing that they can do, would you then pray to God?

I would seek another doctor immediately.

There are many uncurable illnesses. That is part of life. Praying to imaginary man in the sky, or sacrificing a sheep is something that educated, sane person does not do.

It is understandable that people pray to their gods in remote tribal areas in Africa. There are no schools, people have no educAtion in these parts of the world, so it is understandable people there belive in supernatural.

So, only remote people in African tribes with no education should believe in God? So what excuse do you give to highly educated people who believe in God? There are millions, maybe billions of them.

This is what Catholics and Christians believe (probably other religions as well)

Yes, people with no education in undeveloped nations, can be religeous because they do not understand why sun goes down, when it rains at there are floods, they have every right to believe floods are a punishment from god.

In the West and any developed nation, people go to school, they learn physics, people in USA do not think hurricanes are wrath of god.

There is no excuse to belive in supernatural in developed nations, with education system in place. I Europe people believed wiches are the cause of plague, by now science has explained the true cause.

So yes, only people from remote African, SA and other not developed parts of the worlds can be religeous.

In the West, and in any developed nation, there is no excuse to believe in talking snake, 17 virgins, rapture LOL.

You can believe in Jesus, you can believe there is Santa, in the West you are free to belive what you want.

Religeon, just like masturbation, should be practiced in the privacy of your home. That way more people can stay alive.

[anon8]

When I first watched or listened to Dawkins, I was really put off by his almost rabid approach to his attacks on religion.

That was before my enlightenment.

Now, after much careful thought and personal debate, I have come around very much to his view about religion, although I am far less confrontational about it, and never try to force my views about religion on others, or I try, anyway.

I also realize that in Thailand, it is very important not to express a religious view that goes in direct conflict with what is accepted here. I am in no way bothered by any religious views I have seen in Thailand, and if I were to practice a religion, then I would want it to be the Buddhist religion as I have seen it here.

I feel most comfortable following not religion but the scientific method as closely as I can.

And, for those who require a religion, that is fine also, but do not let this cause you to negatively influence others, or become intolerant of others.

Dawkins approach is anything but rabid. He destroys myths created by various religeons one by one, and he does it with using logic and science, if anything, Dawkins is timid and very polite to his opponence.

If his opponents look rediculed, and they usually are, it is not because Dawkins is crude or arrogant, it is only because he destroys the opponent quickly and efficiently.

He is the worst nightmare for belivers in supernatural.

[notmyself]

Yes, people with no education in undeveloped nations, can be religeous because they do not understand why sun goes down, when it rains at there are floods, they have every right to believe floods are a punishment from god.

In the West and any developed nation, people go to school, they learn physics, people in USA do not think hurricanes are wrath of god.

Something like 40% do so your argument has just been demolished.