Suthep to abandon main protest site at Bangkok's Democracy Monument

[Emptyset]

Yes agree with that ref. good governance. But good governance is an alien concept in Thailand, irrespective of the identity of those concerned, as it would go some way to stopping them lining their pockets. I don't think that the Shinawatras are worse than anyone else in that respect. Thaksin is down at no. 10 in the Thailand rich list (Fforbes) and there's another 30 or so worth more than half a billion. We would be pretty naive to think that given the way the system works here, some of this wasn't accumulated in a rather dubious fashion.

As for assertions about things getting worse under Thaksin, I've yet to see real in-depth studies demonstrating this conclusively.

Sent from my GT-I9500 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

I have been here since the mid 90s. Things absolutely got worse under thaksin as he systematically attempted to dismantle the checks and balances of government.

This is what caused his demise that time and this.

You should not have to look very far to find out information on this but you could start on the book "thaksinisation of thailand"

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

Very good book, that. But McCargo isn't very complementary about the whistleblowing mob either. He thinks it's the last gasp of the paternalist elite. See his recent NYT article. A few less illusions on all sides would be a good thing...

Nevertheless, going back to corruption, whilst Thaksin was undoubtedly corrupt himself, and his sister (Yaowapa) and wife had their hands in the pot too, it's not clear that corruption as a whole got worse under Thaksin. It's been said that he did a decent job in controlling corruption overall, despite his personal avarice and disregard for the rules.

If you look again at the TPI chart which people are fond of citing now because it makes this government look bad, corruption (or at least the perception of it) was at its lowest during the past 20 years during Thaksin's tenure. The chart has been inverted to make it clearer - higher is worse on the actual TPI chart, but on this chart higher = more corruption. So, bar a blip in 96, corruption was improving steadily from its heights in the early 90s, the best years being under Thaksin in 04/05, until right around the time of the coup.

Since then it's pretty much been getting worse, although the worst year for corruption according to the chart occurred under the junta. So it either means we shouldn't take the TPI so seriously, or it means that unelected governments aren't as great at solving corruption problems as people currently seem to think they are.

Don't get me wrong, despite the fact I believe the coup was wrong, I'm still glad Thaksin isn't PM. But the idea that an unelected government will solve corruption when the last one apparently made it worse is dubious. Though obviously even if I thought an unelected government was going solve corruption problems I still wouldn't support it. I'm just saying don't assume it will...

Edited January 4, 2014 by Emptyset

[catmac]

"Policies not bribes have cemented the loyalties" of PT supporters -

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2013/12/09/world/asia/members-of-thai-opposition-party-quit-parliament.html

You mean FAILED policies, I assume .

Does it matter in this context? The point is that without vote-buying people would vote largely in the same way. The Dems, Suthep know this, and are looking to disenfranchise these voters rather than win them over in the longer term by convincing them that their own policies are better both for Thailand, and for the urban/rural working classes.

It's so blatant that you would think the more worldly-wise on TV could see what is really going on. A behind the scenes battle between proxy Suthep and the Shinawatras, neither of which interest group appears to be greatly interested in achieving reconciliation between the pawns they are inciting towards increasingly polarised views.

Sent from my GT-I9500 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Yes it does matter, because currently those " Loyal supporters " are waking up to the scam.

Tabs not delivered . Farmers that start to protest because after several lame excuses they are still not paid.

They want the elections very quickly, because every day some new facts come above water , and soon the Shinawatra's will have to run for their life because their " loyal supporters" eyes have opened.

There you have it, Peter, that's how a democracy works. If a party promises the Earth to get elected, and fails to deliver the goods once in government, then it's up to their "loyal supporters" to kick them out at the next election. This process would be greatly enhanced by having an opposition Party that is seriously proposing sensible alternatives, rather than sulking in the corner refusing to play because they know they are unelectable!

It's not for a mob of whistle-blowing goons led by one of the most corrupt politicians that this country has ever known - and that's saying something! - to overthrow the elected government. That is decidedly is NOT democracy.

[theajarn]

Wow. I've been away from ThaiVisa and Thai News in general for half a year (now that I'm safe here back home in the US) and to be honest, one does not need to keep up with the news. After half a year you come back, it's all the same BS.

The difference is that I've been living happier not listening in on the news back in Thailand. Until now, that is -- but yeah, same old crap.

I like the comment about the 'good police chiefs told me so'. Poor bastards, once they're found out. "Thanks a lot for blowing our covers boss -- NOT!"

OK, I'll come back here in a year or two. Though I can bet it'll be the same thing even then.

[HerbalEd]

Suthep says things like "“Our fight is non-violent resistance, with peace, and empty hands" out of one side of his mouth and things like "war" and "battlefield" out of the other side. You can bet he's hoping for a violent confrontation to further his goals.

BTW, I don't at all favor Yinluck's and her brother's government ... but neither do I support the "Democrat's" un-democratic call for an oligarchy government (i.e., governing by an "appointed" few, vs a government elected by the people.).

Edited January 4, 2014 by HerbalEd

[tomyummer]

Should set up a pool to see which new intersection this 'leader of morals' will camp at next. I know this island in the Chaophraya River.....

[GAZZPA]

should I leave soon

Possibly, can't say it's not entered my mind on occasion. Lately I'm thinking about it even more. I get paid in Thai baht and sending money home is becoming more painful.

Also, my job involves dealing with International clients and slowly they are now beginning to ask me if the problems will effect the running of the business. Of course I say no, but I'm starting to wonder. It's a slippy slope,, lack of confidence is all it takes, businesses are risk averse nowadays more then ever..

[tomyummer]

Yes agree with that ref. good governance. But good governance is an alien concept in Thailand, irrespective of the identity of those concerned, as it would go some way to stopping them lining their pockets. I don't think that the Shinawatras are worse than anyone else in that respect. Thaksin is down at no. 10 in the Thailand rich list (Fforbes) and there's another 30 or so worth more than half a billion. We would be pretty naive to think that given the way the system works here, some of this wasn't accumulated in a rather dubious fashion.

As for assertions about things getting worse under Thaksin, I've yet to see real in-depth studies demonstrating this conclusively.

Sent from my GT-I9500 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

I have been here since the mid 90s. Things absolutely got worse under thaksin as he systematically attempted to dismantle the checks and balances of government.

This is what caused his demise that time and this.

You should not have to look very far to find out information on this but you could start on the book "thaksinisation of thailand"

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

Very good book, that. But McCargo isn't very complementary about the whistleblowing mob either. He thinks it's the last gasp of the paternalist elite. See his recent NYT article. A few less illusions on all sides would be a good thing...

Nevertheless, going back to corruption, whilst Thaksin was undoubtedly corrupt himself, and his sister (Yaowapa) and wife had their hands in the pot too, it's not clear that corruption as a whole got worse under Thaksin. It's been said that he did a decent job in controlling corruption overall, despite his personal avarice and disregard for the rules.

If you look again at the TPI chartwhich people are fond of citing now because it makes this government look bad, corruption (or at least the perception of it) was at its lowest during the past 20 years during Thaksin's tenure. The chart has been inverted to make it clearer - higher is worse on the actual TPI chart, but on this chart higher = more corruption. So, bar a blip in 96, corruption was improving steadily from its heights in the early 90s, the best years being under Thaksin in 04/05, until right around the time of the coup.

Since then it's pretty much been getting worse, although the worst year for corruption according to the chart occurred under the junta. So it either means we shouldn't take the TPI so seriously, or it means that unelected governments aren't as great at solving corruption problems as people currently seem to think they are.

Don't get me wrong, despite the fact I believe the coup was wrong, I'm still glad Thaksin isn't PM. But the idea that an unelected government will solve corruption when the last one apparently made it worse is dubious. Though obviously even if I thought an unelected government was going solve corruption problems I still wouldn't support it. I'm just saying don't assume it will...

Corruption has definitely gotten worse since the early 90's. I've seen the tea money go from 10% to a current 30%! And it's creeping up higher even now.

[Mystory]

This would be a very disturbing development if such action by the police was planned. And yet, it is also sadly consistent with the administration's actions up to this point. It seems that - whatever happens - will likely be a defining moment in the country's history. The choice of the administration is to whether it will be a violent one or a peaceful one.

The way Suthep is talking Battle Ground, fight fist over fist. I think the writing is on the wall.

He needs the Army to stage a coup, He needs it he is now out of options.

To the Thai people stay home there are peaceful ways to resolve this.

[RtotheC]

"But he said some good senior officers who disagreed have told him about the plot."

Should have read "After receiving payment, some senior officers told him about the plan"

[Ulic]

Probably best for him to leave Democracy Monument as he is doing his very best to end democracy in Thailand.

[kriswillems]

Shutting down all offices of international companies in BKK means a huge loss for the country.

If Suthep really manages to shutdown the business center of BKK something will happen.

Thailand can not carry such huge financial losses.

I just hope that as being foreigners, we'll not be affected by the consequences of what will happen.

Being foreigners, it 's possible to become the most easy target - the black sheep.

[aimbc]

What a fiasco! I don't know what the rest of the world must must think. There's one half of the population who repeatedly vote in an obviously corrupt and incompetent group of self-serving crooks, and another half who want to drag the country back to feudalism and are prepared to wreck the place to do it.

It would be funny if it weren't so pathetic.

What the rest of the world has to think ?

That this man stands up for his countrymen.

Half of the population voted for an obviously corrupt and incompetent group of self-serving crooks, because they got paid for it and don't have anything to lose, while the other half understand that they are paying the piper and want those crooks out of their life forever.

Most people who don't seen past this protesting have not really answer the question...with all the abuse of power, mismanagement of nations funds, ignoring the law, collaborating with a known criminal. Why can't any one do anything to hold the government accountable. Simply, the mechanism is broken. There are many. Most agree that this YS and her goverment are inept and for those who think they are not, please explain to me how?

But I am going to assume that most will agree that this government is the worst ever. Not even caring for the nation and its future. If the protest did not happen, a known criminal would be clear of his crime, the rice scheme would continue and plunge the nation into more debt, government can ignore the courts decision allowing them to run lawlessly, borrow for the water project, which is not stopped because it was not processed according to law (hence my reference to lawlessness), the 2 Trillion infrastructure, which was passed and ready for funding(borrowing). I don't want to bore anyone any longer. All that have occured right in front of everyone nose. And no one can stop them or hold them accountable for.

So now its every citizen's duty to defend Thailand and democracy. Because if the structure does not get fixed, then at the next election, all the stuff I mentioned that this government has arrogantly done in the name of democracy, will happen and we won't have anyone to blame but ourselves.

[bangarang]

as long as he stays away from Nana and Soi Cowboy I think we are all good.

[Mackie]

If a party promises the Earth to get elected, and fails to deliver the goods once in government, then it's up to their "loyal supporters" to kick them out at the next election. This process would be greatly enhanced by having an opposition Party that is seriously proposing sensible alternatives, rather than sulking in the corner refusing to play because they know they are unelectable!

It's not for a mob of whistle-blowing goons led by one of the most corrupt politicians that this country has ever known - and that's saying something! - to overthrow the elected government. That is decidedly is NOT democracy.

First of all, any decent human being anywhere in the world would have a problem with his/her government being run by a convicted criminal from some foreign country. Of course, there is always vested interest. In that case they would probably defend the criminal actions of the government and the criminal himself.

Thailand is not democracy. It has never been. As long as red shirt villages exists (on the principles of Khmer Rouge), political opponents are brutally and physically intimidated in red shirt controlled areas, dead people voting, vote buying and multiple voting continues Thailand will not have a proper democratic elections.

Secondly, I cannot remember any government in the world, let alone in Thailand which lost over 13 billion dollars in less than two years just to stay popular in the rural part of the country. In any normal country government would fall and the heads would roll. They blew massive hole in Thai economy which is already causing instability across the board, the national currency is weakening and inflation has started biting.

Suthep is not even a player. He is certainly a useful tool. As for him being one of the most corrupted politicians in Thailand. Simply laughable. Neither I nor anyone else can take your word for it. You've got to do better than that and prove your accusations. The most corrupted one has been convicted, fair and square. He is on the run. Even his lawyers were caught red handed trying to bribe judges. You have no leg to stand on mate. All you post is one sided propaganda.

[kurtgruen]

It's interesting how the tenor of these threads has changed! A couple of months ago most TV forum members were in favour of Mr.Suthep and all his works. Glad to see that most of you now see him for what he is.

I fully support Mr. Suthep and the demonstrators, but I don't feel the need to spend hours on here, stating so, since (and this might come as news to you), nobody cares, in this Country what Thaivisa members think. This is about Thai People and their Country.

Besides, as I see it, there will be no election and this Thaksin Government will be gone completely soon, so what is the need to keep posting in every forum.

Makes me wonder, if some people have a life?

[Mosha]

A link to a similar article on The Nation website displays a shortened title to fit the space available. Currently under the Heading of “Breaking News” appears four words: Suthep to Abandon Democracy.....

The rest of the article's title is cut off.

A concise account of Suthep's game plan – in four words.

Remember this one?

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/home/PMS-DECLARATIONDemocracy-is-not-my-goal-90316.html

[aimbc]

as long as he stays away from Nana and Soi Cowboy I think we are all good.

Sorry Soi Cowboy is in Asoke area zone. Not sure about Nana

[4u2mad]

He said he will be at twenty locations - bloody clever - presumably not all at the same time?

Little like 'where's Waldo?'

[DiamondKing]

It's interesting how the tenor of these threads has changed! A couple of months ago most TV forum members were in favour of Mr.Suthep and all his works. Glad to see that most of you now see him for what he is.

I fully support Mr. Suthep and the demonstrators, but I don't feel the need to spend hours on here, stating so, since (and this might come as news to you), nobody cares, in this Country what Thaivisa members think. This is about Thai People and their Country.

Besides, as I see it, there will be no election and this Thaksin Government will be gone completely soon, so what is the need to keep posting in every forum.

Makes me wonder, if some people have a life?

Says a lot about you.

[aimbc]

It's interesting how the tenor of these threads has changed! A couple of months ago most TV forum members were in favour of Mr.Suthep and all his works. Glad to see that most of you now see him for what he is.

I fully support Mr. Suthep and the demonstrators, but I don't feel the need to spend hours on here, stating so, since (and this might come as news to you), nobody cares, in this Country what Thaivisa members think. This is about Thai People and their Country.

Besides, as I see it, there will be no election and this Thaksin Government will be gone completely soon, so what is the need to keep posting in every forum.

Makes me wonder, if some people have a life?

Yes you are right about what you say. But you already know, Thailand depends heavily on foreign investment and foreign companies. So members here do have some influence in government decisions. And on this Thaivisa site members a.k.a. xpats a.k.a. CEO a.k.a. Directors, a.k.a. a person with Thai spouse, a.k.a. retires. Everyone is owed some explanation of what is going on in this country. That what made this site so powerful and popular. So everyone does have a life, because most people who live here genuinely care about Thailand and call this place their home.

All that said, you need to ask yourself that question first before others, "Makes me wonder, if some people have a life? ", you are posting here aren't you?

[redsox44]

Considering he has the backing of all those who "count" in Bangkok, from extremely rich businessmen to military leaders, yes even R----S DO NOT consider him a nut case. Just remember what he got away with a few years ago. He's here to stay unless commoners rise up against him, an almost impossible task.

[Thailand]

Suthep to abandon Democracy Monument

Suthep may be a silly old bugger - but the one thing he is doing is rescuing democracy from these Shinawatra Mafia bozos

You have really nailed it. Have you actually taken in anything that has been going on?

[retsdon]

The real elephant in the room is that the Democrats and their shadowy support are not in the least interested in democracy as a form of government. Elections are an inconvenient nuisance, and when they can't be won legitimately at the ballot box, some stratagem or other is manufactured to seize power some other way.

I don't really understand why they have gone down this road. PTP are certainly not unbeatable. The rice subsidy scheme is a bust. The rubber subsidy scheme is a bust. The car subsidy scheme is a bust. Millions upon millions of Thais now find themselves saddled with consumer debt that will keep the wolf at their door for years and years. Add Chinese economic rebalancing, US tapering, creeping world interest rate rises, and the smoke and mirrors stuff is coming home to roost big time.

So fine, demonstrate on the streets against the government, but why boycott the election? Why tear up the constitution? As a political party the Democrats should be champing at the bit to debunk Yingluk's dog and pony show and give PTP a hammering at the polls. Where is the slick TV advertising showing money pouring down a drain? Where are the billboards on every road showing a poor man carrying a mountain of debt on his back? Where are the newspaper exposes of the gross corruption and incompetence? Any normal political campaign manager would give his eye-teeth to have the political ammunition that Yingluk has handed to the DP.

But the DP are not interested in even trying. Abhisit and co prefer to throw their weight behind overthrowing the constituton of rhe country. Not once, but twice now, have they preferred the mob and junta option to the ballot box. Once might have been a mistake, twice is surely policy. So if you are a normal person, who would like to have some say in the running of the country and the only people not likely to tear up your voter registration card at the first opportunity are PTP - then that's who you're forced to vote for.

PTP haven't bought the popular vote. The Democrats have given it to them, and now their only option is to take it back by force and throw it in the bin. Terrible, terrible, lazy stupid people.

[americaninbangkok]

Is the orange ribbon for the 2008 airport closure? Or is it for the 2010 inability to quash a red rebellion?

I'd like to see his ribbons/medals stack up against those of MacArthur, Westmoreland, Montgomery, or Schwarzkopf. It seems these get handed out in Thailand if you carry the correct brand handbag (is it Burberry or Prada?) or wear the right color tie on Tuesday!

[sirineou]

It is really stupid, isn´t?

Why they not organize a statewide signatures action?

A simple petition.

Statewide!

Like

I agree that in future no criminals and/or corrupt people can work in government, parliament or as a civil servant.

Yes / No

It will be excluded, from now on, all persons from the Parliament, which

a have criminal records.

b running free on bail.

c were already banned from parliament in the past.

d against are corruption or crime cases opened.

I agree Yes / No

I guess in 1 Week they can get a lot of signatures from all parts in Thailand.

Yes that is called an election and it is scheduled for Feb2

Then we will see who will collect the most signatures

But he obviously knows that if the people were allowed to choose he will loose, so he is going for the who can shout the loudest route.

[PeterSmiles]

It is really stupid, isn´t?

Why they not organize a statewide signatures action?

A simple petition.

Statewide!

Like

I agree that in future no criminals and/or corrupt people can work in government, parliament or as a civil servant.

Yes / No

It will be excluded, from now on, all persons from the Parliament, which

a have criminal records.

b running free on bail.

c were already banned from parliament in the past.

d against are corruption or crime cases opened.

I agree Yes / No

I guess in 1 Week they can get a lot of signatures from all parts in Thailand.

Yes that is called an election and it is scheduled for Feb2

Then we will see who will collect the most signatures

But he obviously knows that if the people were allowed to choose he will loose, so he is going for the who can shout the loudest route.

Because he knows that if he doesn't block the elections, the new government will be solely composed out of people that belong to one or more of the 4 points Tomacht8 made clear should NOT be in any government.

Similar to the current government .

[Halion]

A crazy nutcase with a piggy false smile. I can´t understand why they let him destroy this so called Land of Smiles. Arrest him. Let him pay for what he done so far. There are crooks and corruption on both site.

There certainly are and will be for some time, however, the nepotism and megalomania of the Shiniwatar's only amplifies their total unsuitability to Govern.

[Mackie]

The real elephant in the room is that the Democrats and their shadowy support are not in the least interested in democracy as a form of government. Elections are an inconvenient nuisance, and when they can't be won legitimately at the ballot box, some stratagem or other is manufactured to seize power some other way.

I don't really understand why they have gone down this road. PTP are certainly not unbeatable. The rice subsidy scheme is a bust. The rubber subsidy scheme is a bust. The car subsidy scheme is a bust. Millions upon millions of Thais now find themselves saddled with consumer debt that will keep the wolf at their door for years and years. Add Chinese economic rebalancing, US tapering, creeping world interest rate rises, and the smoke and mirrors stuff is coming home to roost big time.

So fine, demonstrate on the streets against the government, but why boycott the election? Why tear up the constitution? As a political party the Democrats should be champing at the bit to debunk Yingluk's dog and pony show and give PTP a hammering at the polls. Where is the slick TV advertising showing money pouring down a drain? Where are the billboards on every road showing a poor man carrying a mountain of debt on his back? Where are the newspaper exposes of the gross corruption and incompetence? Any normal political campaign manager would give his eye-teeth to have the political ammunition that Yingluk has handed to the DP.

But the DP are not interested in even trying. Abhisit and co prefer to throw their weight behind overthrowing the constituton of rhe country. Not once, but twice now, have they preferred the mob and junta option to the ballot box. Once might have been a mistake, twice is surely policy. So if you are a normal person, who would like to have some say in the running of the country and the only people not likely to tear up your voter registration card at the first opportunity are PTP - then that's who you're forced to vote for.

PTP haven't bought the popular vote. The Democrats have given it to them, and now their only option is to take it back by force and throw it in the bin. Terrible, terrible, lazy stupid people.

I agree with the most of your post. However, you keep forgetting that Thailand is not a typical western country where people are informed. Do you honestly believe that all those brainwashed poor souls in red mob villages have got any clue about what is going on in Thailand? Do you honestly believe that they have any information about the rice subsidy scheme scam, a rubber subsidy scheme scam, a tablet for every school child scheme scam etc...etc...There are hundreds radio stations in North/Northeast which operate outside the law and brainwash populace 24/7. Moreover, how are you going to conduct your political campaign anywhere in the red mob controlled areas if you are going to be subjected to physical intimidation and almost certainly stopped from promoting any political view which is contrary to their official party line. PTP line. You seem to not understand the complexity of Thailand and its political scene.

Edited January 4, 2014 by Mackie

[DMG333]

The real elephant in the room is that the Democrats and their shadowy support are not in the least interested in democracy as a form of government. Elections are an inconvenient nuisance, and when they can't be won legitimately at the ballot box, some stratagem or other is manufactured to seize power some other way.

I don't really understand why they have gone down this road. PTP are certainly not unbeatable. The rice subsidy scheme is a bust. The rubber subsidy scheme is a bust. The car subsidy scheme is a bust. Millions upon millions of Thais now find themselves saddled with consumer debt that will keep the wolf at their door for years and years. Add Chinese economic rebalancing, US tapering, creeping world interest rate rises, and the smoke and mirrors stuff is coming home to roost big time.

So fine, demonstrate on the streets against the government, but why boycott the election? Why tear up the constitution? As a political party the Democrats should be champing at the bit to debunk Yingluk's dog and pony show and give PTP a hammering at the polls. Where is the slick TV advertising showing money pouring down a drain? Where are the billboards on every road showing a poor man carrying a mountain of debt on his back? Where are the newspaper exposes of the gross corruption and incompetence? Any normal political campaign manager would give his eye-teeth to have the political ammunition that Yingluk has handed to the DP.

But the DP are not interested in even trying. Abhisit and co prefer to throw their weight behind overthrowing the constituton of rhe country. Not once, but twice now, have they preferred the mob and junta option to the ballot box. Once might have been a mistake, twice is surely policy. So if you are a normal person, who would like to have some say in the running of the country and the only people not likely to tear up your voter registration card at the first opportunity are PTP - then that's who you're forced to vote for.

PTP haven't bought the popular vote. The Democrats have given it to them, and now their only option is to take it back by force and throw it in the bin. Terrible, terrible, lazy stupid people.

Well written.......let's hope the final of the 'final battle' finally end with beneficial outcome.

[fish fingers]

It is really stupid, isn´t?

Why they not organize a statewide signatures action?

A simple petition.

Statewide!

Like

I agree that in future no criminals and/or corrupt people can work in government, parliament or as a civil servant.

Yes / No

It will be excluded, from now on, all persons from the Parliament, which

a have criminal records.

b running free on bail.

c were already banned from parliament in the past.

d against are corruption or crime cases opened.

I agree Yes / No

I guess in 1 Week they can get a lot of signatures from all parts in Thailand.

Yes that is called an election and it is scheduled for Feb2

Then we will see who will collect the most signatures

But he obviously knows that if the people were allowed to choose he will loose, so he is going for the who can shout the loudest route.

If paying 40% above the market rate for rice and buying votes make the current governnment legitimate then yes.

If passing a Bill at 4am, using unattended votes, in order to hand back billions to a convicted fraudster who is running the country rather than in jail, then yes.

But luckily many thai's are not that stupid.