Thai students gather to join 'last fight' for reform: January 13

[aimbc]

So if Yingluck wins at the next election that is uite suitable and then he mentions that she has to go. Well done, your a very educated group of students. By the way, reform does not happen overnight, rather years of stabilitiy, rule of law being up held and democracy being adhered to. Guys your not exactly doing this, or have you not been told this by your Lecturer as yet?

For all of those being critical on any statements by any Thais, please keep in mind that some portion can be lost in translation. So before becoming critical or making rude remarks, learn Thai first and listen to the original statement. Those that usually call someone uneducated are uneducated themselves.

[DocN]

The many comments on here about the "amart" and the "elite" are shot out of the water now.

The rubber farmers, the students, government workers, civil servants, many workers organisations and unions and now rice farmers are all on the offensive with the government

That's ok for the Yingluck apologists as they'll just denigrate students (as we see on this thread), government workers, civil servants, etc. etc.

Yeah, Einstein, right!

And you really believe that for any of the above mentioned, life will significantly change after the "reforms" that they are pushing!?

Reforms, of which nobody knows what they will be, how they will be implemented...just Suthep telling the gullible "we tell you later"!

Mind you: the "amart" in this country are real!

They are not some dreamed up group like the "illuminati"...

This "fight" is not about "reform" it is not against "corruption" it is not even about Thaksin!

It about an old elite, seeing their god given rights and their power, given to them through birth- rights, fade away!

But you dream on about "reforms". if that floats your boat!

[Local Drunk]

They want to reform the country? OK, they should understand the issues first, so it would be good to require all of them to spend a year in the countryside, working alongside ordinary people, so that their perspective becomes clearer. Maybe the leaders can volunteer.

Great idea! Let's put Yingluck, and and the rest of the MPs in the rice paddies for 2 years before they can actually run for office. In fact it should be a mandatory requirement for anyone seeking elective or appointed high office. I'll take your proposition one step further... They should also be required to spend 90 days in a real Thai prison. No perks, no influence peddling and no respect to their person. That'll sort the wheat form chafe.

Works for me... But on the flip side, why should students be penalized for their inherent right to protest against governments that created the problem?

Edited January 7, 2014 by Local Drunk

[rijb]

And many of the 'old elites' are as out of touch with the rest of world as the young 'Einsteins' who believe everything they read/hear on the internet...

[aimbc]

Peoples Council....

Both sides say reform, but neither is giving particulars, and that would be key to election results. What is reform? This should not be some vague issue, and right now it is very vague from both directions. Waiting for the military to hit the reset button is ridiculous. If reform means that the political map is redrawn, they need to make that clear now. If reform means that nothing changes and a small group grabs all the power, they need to make that clear now.

Thai politics is maturing. People want answers, not inflated phrases that are not actionable. The aftermath is unthinkable. I am thinking of critical mass, when too many active atoms are compressed into a small space and...disintegrate....

Can I ask if you heard Suthep explanation in "Thai" and not some translation or an edited version of it?

[Emptyset]

Starting to sound more like October 1976, when the students joined the demonstrations against the government. Than like now the PM has ordered the military to control the demonstrations. I just hope the results are not the same.

You're confusing Oct 76 with Oct 73. 73 were the student lead demonstrations for democracy which ordinary people later joined. 76 was when Thammasat students were massacred by right-wing vigilantes (not by the government who were powerless at that point).

Neither are similar in my opinion - or did you miss the rather crucial fact that students in 73 were protesting FOR democracy? - but there is a parallel noted by Pasuk and Baker:

Following the refusals of the military and judiciary, Suthep and other protest leaders adopted a vocabulary of “people’s revolution”. Their thinking drew on two incidents in Thailand’s recent history. First, during the student protests of October 1973, the leaders of the military government were sent into exile, creating a power vacuum. The king then appointed a prime minister along with an assembly of over 2,000 people that selected the members of a constitutional drafting body. Second, the leaders of a military coup in 1991 installed Anand Panyarachun, a former diplomat, as prime minister, and Anand hand-picked a cabinet of technocrats that devised several reforms. Suthep called for some combination of these events, meaning a suspension of parliamentary government, the installation of an appointed, non-political cabinet, and the convoking of an assembly to draft reforms.

http://www.epw.in/commentary/thailand-another-round-turmoil.html

[BirdsandBooze]

So if Yingluck wins at the next election that is uite suitable and then he mentions that she has to go. Well done, your a very educated group of students. By the way, reform does not happen overnight, rather years of stabilitiy, rule of law being up held and democracy being adhered to. Guys your not exactly doing this, or have you not been told this by your Lecturer as yet?

You're a 'nut'. He said and I'll repeat it for your benefit, if PTP become the next government AFTER reform that is acceptable but NOT BEFORE reform. That there must not be an election on 2nd February and YS must resign now so reform can take place. Is that quite clear?

Twisting the content of the article does nothing to enhance your argument.

what reform? by an unelected council? who are they? who will choose them? who will control and monitor them? how will the reform be evaluated? WHO decide's "now we have reform"? how do we trust a man involved with the Phuket scandal? what about the 15.8 million Thais who voted PTP? how do you 'educate' these people to (presumably) vote Democrat? what about the arrest warrant for Suthep? how to, legally, get rid of the Shinawat's?

The unelected council will be chosen by that small, above the law, ultra privileged elite that owns Thailand. It will be nothing more than a vehicle created by and to serve these same people.

[Local Drunk]

And many of the 'old elites' are as out of touch with the rest of world as the young 'Einsteins' who believe everything they read/hear on the internet...

Nothing you said makes any sense. Who are the old elites and how are they out of touch with reality? Who are the young Einsteins who believe everything they read on the internet? You've made a ridiculous blanket assumption about the whole spectrum of Thai society.

Please contrast and compare with a few details.

[Local Drunk]

When they use the word 'reform', what exactly are they reforming? What are the plans? Have they evaluated the impacts? How are they going to resolve the problems? Have they predicted what problems lie ahead? What is their road map? What do they considered 'successes' and 'failures'? I encourage reform, but don't fall into someone else's trap by putting the people council in place of the elected officials.

If only we could ask your questions to the currently elected government and get answers!

Edited January 7, 2014 by Local Drunk

[bkkgooner]

It's like they think someone can just hit a big REFORM button and all of the problems will go away overnight.

The thought of an unelected council running this country for 18 months makes me feel sick.

[Emptyset]

The many comments on here about the "amart" and the "elite" are shot out of the water now.

The rubber farmers, the students, government workers, civil servants, many workers organisations and unions and now rice farmers are all on the offensive with the government

Yes it's true - there are many ordinary people with grievances against this government. But if you believe that sections of the amaat aren't operating behind the scenes - funding it - and trying to manipulate this for their own gain then you've misunderstood the situation. This was their plan all along. Of course, the emotion & connection to the movement that people feel is real, and things take on a life of their own, no doubt about that...

It's not as simple as saying it's all an elite plot, but you can't remove that side of the things from the equation either. It's like those who said that the red shirts in 2010 had nothing to do with Thaksin. That it was an entirely spontaneous mass uprising. That view was shot down here. The sentiment was real and the majority of protesters believed in what they were doing, but it doesn't mean that Thaksin wasn't funding it and trying to manipulate events.

Edited January 7, 2014 by Emptyset

[Local Drunk]

It's like they think someone can just hit a big REFORM button and all of the problems will go away overnight.

The thought of an unelected council running this country for 18 months makes me feel sick.

Why do you feel sick about it? What's your interest in it? Perhaps you should think about how sick the people of Thailand feel with Thaksin.

[scorecard]

They want to reform the country? OK, they should understand the issues first, so it would be good to require all of them to spend a year in the countryside, working alongside ordinary people, so that their perspective becomes clearer. Maybe the leaders can volunteer.

That worked so well in China. Next you will be calling for a Khmer Rouge style Year Zero, kill all those smarty-pants intellectuals.

No, not at all. I was thinking more of a gap year/ peace corps type experience. It would be good for students and maybe even make them remotely employable

What rubbish.

[ginjag]

When they use the word 'reform', what exactly are they reforming? What are the plans? Have they evaluated the impacts? How are they going to resolve the problems? Have they predicted what problems lie ahead? What is their road map? What do they considered 'successes' and 'failures'? I encourage reform, but don't fall into someone else's trap by putting the people council in place of the elected officials.

Students you follow this posters wise words go home the mad man go home no elections Yingluck to run to the end of her term. Brilliant sticky.

Thailand bankrupt, borrow as much as you can from anywhere we can still pocket more money -we at the trough have over a year to go. SICK.

Forget Suthep forget elections( Carry on) Yingluck as in the movies. you think Sticky this is the way. ??? so forget these elections and let a government serve it's full term no matter ??? they can pillage and defy the law but the democratic way is to wait until the 4th year comes around.

[Robby nz]

Students should be protesting about the lack of quality education they recieve.I notice that objective reasoning isnt big on the agenda ,with that comes not believing in everything either party says ,and to ask serious questions about policy and reform .Sheep are easily lead .The pied piper of Bangkok has proven so in this instance

Someone does not seem to understand that education reform is all part of the overall reform process, so therefore the students are protesting for education reform among other things.

It is unfortunate that the red sheep keep following the criminal coward in Dubai, although follow is hardly the right word as he has never actually led, rather sat back in luxury and ever increasing wealth while said red sheep still sweat, bleed and die for him.

I suspect there are a fair proportion of the students who come from rural backgrounds where their families scrimped and saved to send them to Uni so they will have a far better understanding of the problems of all parts of Thai society than the red ranters who post on here.

But hay, PT are making sure the rice farmers wont be able to send their kids anywhere now that the payments for the rice have been held up

[Emptyset]

And many of the 'old elites' are as out of touch with the rest of world as the young 'Einsteins' who believe everything they read/hear on the internet...

Nothing you said makes any sense. Who are the old elites and how are they out of touch with reality? Who are the young Einsteins who believe everything they read on the internet? You've made a ridiculous blanket assumption about the whole spectrum of Thai society.

Please contrast and compare with a few details.

The old elites who're out of touch are the ones funding Suthep's movement. I don't believe they are fascists, but they are not particularly liberal democracy supporters either. I think they believe they can go back to some sort of managed semi-democracy, as seen pre-1992 (or pre-Chatchai anyway). Even the liberal side of the paternalist elite that backed PAD in 06, Anand, Dr Prawase etc, have got it badly wrong if they believe authoritarian means will result in a liberal outcome. Though it's not particularly clear that the liberal section of the amaat is backing Suthep's movement at this point. I've heard Anand is skeptical, and despite rumours of Pridiyathorn's involvement, he was said to be trying to broker a deal.

In any case, as I've argued before, you can't go backwards. Only a new social contract and understanding between different social forces can resolve the situation. The 'Council' will only result in the massive repression required to put down the red shirt reaction to what amounts to a coup, however the council comes about. Obviously the government isn't going to cede power, so if Suthep is going to win, it surely requires military involvement.

Anyway, Michael Connors' piece in the Bangkok Post a month or so ago, 'Thailand embraces reactive liberalism' is a good attempt at laying out some of these contradictions. I think some of Suthep's supporters would still consider themselves liberals, but in being willing to use any means necessary, they betray the spirit of liberalism. Then there's obviously the nationalist, reactionary and authoritarian strand running through the movement as Connors notes. The latter is stronger than the former at this point and will become so increasingly, liberals will naturally forgo their core principles as the situation intensifies.

That's where the danger lies.

Edited January 7, 2014 by Emptyset

[DrTuner]

One thing in Thai culture I've never understood .. the Universities, especially tech ones, seem to have constant violent clashes with each other. If they take that to the streets ..

[Local Drunk]

The many comments on here about the "amart" and the "elite" are shot out of the water now.

The rubber farmers, the students, government workers, civil servants, many workers organisations and unions and now rice farmers are all on the offensive with the government

Yes it's true - there are many ordinary people with grievances against this government. But if you believe that sections of the amaat aren't operating behind the scenes - funding it - and trying to manipulate this for their own gain then you've misunderstood the situation. This was their plan all along. Of course, the emotion & connection to the movement that people feel is real, and things take on a life of their own, no doubt about that...

It's not as simple as saying it's all an elite plot, but you can't remove that side of the things from the equation either. It's like those who said that the red shirts in 2010 had nothing to do with Thaksin. That it was an entirely spontaneous mass uprising. That view was shot down here. The sentiment was real and the majority of protesters believed in what they were doing, but it doesn't mean that Thaksin wasn't funding it and trying to manipulate events.

I don't disagree at all Empty... Certainly we know that any stable political system here is a long way down the road, if ever. I can't see any cultural upheaval happening here and certainly the culture of a country is what defines the law of the land. What I've seen in the Red Shirts and the current anti government protests is that neither side can be ignored by any standing government. However, what I'm really saying is that any meaningful resolution between the two can't be achieved because of cultural inundation.

Edited January 7, 2014 by Local Drunk

[Local Drunk]

And many of the 'old elites' are as out of touch with the rest of world as the young 'Einsteins' who believe everything they read/hear on the internet...

Nothing you said makes any sense. Who are the old elites and how are they out of touch with reality? Who are the young Einsteins who believe everything they read on the internet? You've made a ridiculous blanket assumption about the whole spectrum of Thai society.

Please contrast and compare with a few details.

The old elites who're out of touch are the ones funding Suthep's movement. I don't believe they are fascists, but they are not particularly liberal democracy supporters either. I think they believe they can go back to some sort of managed semi-democracy, as seen pre-1992 (or pre-Chatchai anyway). Even the liberal side of the paternalist elite that backed PAD in 06, Anand, Dr Prawase etc, have got it badly wrong if they believe authoritarian means will result in a liberal result. Though it's not particularly clear that the liberal section of the amaat is backing Suthep's movement at this point. I've heard Anand is skeptical, and despite rumours of Pridiyathorn's involvement, he was said to be trying to broker a deal.

In any case, as I've argued before, you can't go backwards. Only a new social contract and understanding between different social forces can resolve the situation. The 'Council' will only result in the massive repression required to put down the red shirt reaction to what amounts to a coup, however the council comes about. Obviously the government isn't going to cede power, so if Suthep is going to win, it surely requires military involvement.

Anyway, Michael Connors' piece in the Bangkok Post a month or so ago, 'Thailand embraces reactive liberalism' is a good attempt at laying out some of these contradictions. I think some of Suthep's supporters would still consider themselves liberals, but in being willing to use any means necessary, they betray the spirit of liberalism. Then there's obviously the nationalist, reactionary and authoritarian strand running through the movement as Connors notes. The latter is stronger than the former at this point and will become so increasingly, liberals will naturally forgo their core principles as the situation intensifies.

That's where the danger lies.

Empty... Don't be rijb's apologist! I wanted him to answer. Thanks for the response though. I think I touched that base in a response to another of your posts on this thread. (Wish I could type as fast as you!)

[Costas2008]

"Student power is "innocent"".

Lots of Virgins around?.........Doubt it!

Edited January 7, 2014 by Costas2008

[theslime]

They want to reform the country? OK, they should understand the issues first, so it would be good to require all of them to spend a year in the countryside, working alongside ordinary people, so that their perspective becomes clearer. Maybe the leaders can volunteer.

You must live in a bubble, spend a year in the countryside so their prospective becomes clearer, when probably 90% of them come from the country or helped on their familys Farms/Orchards when younger.

[bkkstooge]

Students who will protest on Monday in Ladgrabang need to be careful as it is probably the strongest red shirt base in BKK left.

[kuka]

I graduated from Bangkok University in 2013 at age 49. I can tell you that the students I went to college with were for the most part spoiled little children still wet behind the ears. I seriously doubt many are politically savvy.

Sent from my SM-N900 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[fab4]

Starting to sound more like October 1976, when the students joined the demonstrations against the government. Than like now the PM has ordered the military to control the demonstrations. I just hope the results are not the same.

I think you need to read a lot more about the background to the Thammarsat University massacre before you insult the memory of those students any further by comparing the situation then to these "students" hanging around suthep now, no matter how much they declare their "independance".

[catmac]

One thing in Thai culture I've never understood .. the Universities, especially tech ones, seem to have constant violent clashes with each other. If they take that to the streets ..

And, of couse, they have been to the forefront of nearly every violent incident that's happened this time round. I actually do applaud the way most of these marches and demonstrations have been organised - good natured and free from violence. The students, however, are a law to themselves and will ensure that Jan 13th will be marred by violence and deaths.

[robblok]

Starting to sound more like October 1976, when the students joined the demonstrations against the government. Than like now the PM has ordered the military to control the demonstrations. I just hope the results are not the same.

I think you need to read a lot more about the background to the Thammarsat University massacre before you insult the memory of those students any further by comparing the situation then to these "students" hanging around suthep now, no matter how much they declare their "independance".

Its a clear sign when student join protests.. only reds will try to deny it. You confirmed what i thought.

[Maha Sarakham Marty]

The many comments on here about the "amart" and the "elite" are shot out of the water now.

The rubber farmers, the students, government workers, civil servants, many workers organisations and unions and now rice farmers are all on the offensive with the government

That's ok for the Yingluck apologists as they'll just denigrate students (as we see on this thread), government workers, civil servants, etc. etc.

Yeah, Einstein, right!

And you really believe that for any of the above mentioned, life will significantly change after the "reforms" that they are pushing!?

Reforms, of which nobody knows what they will be, how they will be implemented...just Suthep telling the gullible "we tell you later"!

Mind you: the "amart" in this country are real!

They are not some dreamed up group like the "illuminati"...

This "fight" is not about "reform" it is not against "corruption" it is not even about Thaksin!

It about an old elite, seeing their god given rights and their power, given to them through birth- rights, fade away!

But you dream on about "reforms". if that floats your boat!

So after denigrating students, comes denigrating posters. Thanks for proving the only point i made in my post.

As for amart, i have repeatedly asked for them to be specifically named.

Will you do so or continue the obfuscating non-answers?

[Artisi]

Starting to sound more like October 1976, when the students joined the demonstrations against the government. Than like now the PM has ordered the military to control the demonstrations. I just hope the results are not the same.

The difference being that the current PM is only an interim PM and as such probably doesn't have or shouldn't have the power to be directing the army to do anything other act as a second police force if asked (not directed) to act, and further more, the army who is responsible to the King and country and may not act on a request or directive from an interim government anyway but only from a higher power.

[DocN]

The many comments on here about the "amart" and the "elite" are shot out of the water now.

The rubber farmers, the students, government workers, civil servants, many workers organisations and unions and now rice farmers are all on the offensive with the government

That's ok for the Yingluck apologists as they'll just denigrate students (as we see on this thread), government workers, civil servants, etc. etc.

Yeah, Einstein, right!

And you really believe that for any of the above mentioned, life will significantly change after the "reforms" that they are pushing!?

Reforms, of which nobody knows what they will be, how they will be implemented...just Suthep telling the gullible "we tell you later"!

Mind you: the "amart" in this country are real!

They are not some dreamed up group like the "illuminati"...

This "fight" is not about "reform" it is not against "corruption" it is not even about Thaksin!

It about an old elite, seeing their god given rights and their power, given to them through birth- rights, fade away!

But you dream on about "reforms". if that floats your boat!

So after denigrating students, comes denigrating posters. Thanks for proving the only point i made in my post.

As for amart, i have repeatedly asked for them to be specifically named.

Will you do so or continue the obfuscating non-answers?

a) I am not denigrating anyone per se!

b ) Name them! Aha...yeah...sure! But here is a hint: remember a certain funeral back in 2008?

'nuff said!

Make of it what you will, but if you think, there is nothing going on behind the curtain...you are as dumb as a brick!

[Emptyset]

The many comments on here about the "amart" and the "elite" are shot out of the water now.

The rubber farmers, the students, government workers, civil servants, many workers organisations and unions and now rice farmers are all on the offensive with the government

Yes it's true - there are many ordinary people with grievances against this government. But if you believe that sections of the amaat aren't operating behind the scenes - funding it - and trying to manipulate this for their own gain then you've misunderstood the situation. This was their plan all along. Of course, the emotion & connection to the movement that people feel is real, and things take on a life of their own, no doubt about that...

It's not as simple as saying it's all an elite plot, but you can't remove that side of the things from the equation either. It's like those who said that the red shirts in 2010 had nothing to do with Thaksin. That it was an entirely spontaneous mass uprising. That view was shot down here. The sentiment was real and the majority of protesters believed in what they were doing, but it doesn't mean that Thaksin wasn't funding it and trying to manipulate events.

I don't disagree at all Empty... Certainly we know that any stable political system here is a long way down the road, if ever. I can't see any cultural upheaval happening here and certainly the culture of a country is what defines the law of the land. What I've seen in the Red Shirts and the current anti government protests is that neither side can be ignored by any standing government. However, what I'm really saying is that any meaningful resolution between the two can't be achieved because of cultural inundation.

Yep. And neither side can be totally crushed by the other either. I hope a democratic compromise can be reached without violence, but everyone seems to be betting on violence now, so...