Land purchased with falang and Thai wife?

[JesseFrank]

I just bought a house in Issarn 13 years after being married and my wife never left me to find someone to build her a house earlier. Wish we'd done it earlier as would have saved a heap not paying rent. Also, 10 years ago my house would have been about 30 % of what I paid for it.

Nope, it's AFTER you buy it she can leave you!

(sorry couldn't resist 8-)

So have you taken any steps to prevent her being able to kick you out and keep it all?

No, it would be worth it to get rid of her!

Seriously, I think I know someone after 13 years living with them. I have the mortgage so she won't be able to kick me out until I'm 60 years old.

How do you get a mortgage on a property that is in someone else name ?

You mean you're the guarantor for the mortgage, which is in your wifes name ?

[JesseFrank]

Seriously, I think I know someone after 13 years living with them. I have the mortgage so she won't be able to kick me out until I'm 60 years old.

Seriously, I thought I knew my first wife after almost 30 years, I didn't know her and in the end she tried to harm me in any way she could.

I'm not bitter, but was and am still surprised.

My second wife, I'll be 84 before the home loan ends.

I've always had bad luck with marriages.

My first wife left me, my second wife doesn't want to .

[FiftyTwo]

I've always had bad luck with marriages.

My first wife left me, my second wife doesn't want to .

I've had good luck with marriages, my first wife left me when she was old and unattractive, my second wife is yum.

[wym]

I've had great luck with all of mine, each only lasted as long as it was supposed to, easy partings on friendly terms, never lost any property or alimony, 100% sole custody of the kids.

[luckyluke]

I bought a house for my wife. After 12 years, I thought it was time to leave, we are both happy, she has a house, I didn't paid more than if had rented a house for 12 years.

[FiftyTwo]

I bought a house for my wife. After 12 years, I thought it was time to leave, we are both happy, she has a house, I didn't paid more than if had rented a house for 12 years.

I don't believe your figures would add up.

Even today a nice 2 bed house can be rented for 5k a month (60k/year .... 720k/12 year)

Once you add the upkeep on the purchased house, then all the interest you lost by not having the cash in the bank ....

[luckyluke]

^

I speak about Pattaya, according to me you can not find a real decent house here for 5.000 ThB a month, similar houses in the "village" my wife is staying, are rented 10.000 ThB up(depends on the furnishing).

Anyway to each his own. I feel OK with it.

[FiftyTwo]

^

I speak about Pattaya, according to me you can not find a real decent house here for 5.000 ThB a month, similar houses in the "village" my wife is staying, are rented 10.000 ThB up(depends on the furnishing).

Anyway to each his own. I feel OK with it.

I was assuming like with like, unfurnished with unfurnished.

Pretty easy to rent unfurnished houses in most areas of Thailand for 5k or less.

Most rentals are 5% of the purchase price per year.

You can get 3% interest from your bank.

Renting costs you in reality 2% ...... so 50 years before you get a profit on a purchase.

(assuming no maintenance on your purchased house, currency fluctuations, no wife running off with it, and no rise in value)

So a total loss after 12 years means you overpaid 75% on the house (Vs renting).

A generous gift by anyone's standards.

[impulse]

I bought a house for my wife. After 12 years, I thought it was time to leave, we are both happy, she has a house, I didn't paid more than if had rented a house for 12 years.

I don't believe your figures would add up.

Even today a nice 2 bed house can be rented for 5k a month (60k/year .... 720k/12 year)

Once you add the upkeep on the purchased house, then all the interest you lost by not having the cash in the bank ....

Like you, I'm always amazed at the people who forget that money tied up in real estate could provide a return if invested elsewhere. You can throw your money away on rent, or you can throw your money away on mortgage interest and the other costs of owning. Or if you pay cash for a property, you're forgoing income that cash could be generating in other uses.

Bottom line is that you never real own a property, even "back home". You own the right to lease the property from the government by paying property taxes, and to use that property ONLY for the limited purposes set out by zoning laws and restrictive covenants. And what's really insidious about that arrangement is that you pay the lease fee not just on the land, but on all of the improvements you already paid for as your appraised property value goes up when you spend money on improvements. If you don't believe that, try not paying the government lease fee for a while. Or see what happens when the government needs "your" land for a higher and better purpose.

Certainly not my idea (wish it were), but the only part missing from your earlier long term mortgage plan is to buy yourself a well managed condo, and rent it out. Use the rent income from your condo to make the payments on the wife's property for as long as that situation lasts. When the "situation" ends, you still have a place to live, and have enjoyed the benefits of real estate appreciation on your condo. And if she's truly a keeper- perhaps even a pleasant surprise.

I'm not claiming to be a Thai real estate expert, and I am tossing this out more for discussion than an actual recommendation.

[luckyluke]

12 years ago my wife could get a loan from the bank, showing 6 months income ( the money came from me), a frequent practice.

During 12 years I paid the mortgage, something less than 10.000 ThB a month, at the same moment some investors bought some similar houses in the "village" and rented them for about 9.000 ThB ( Not my business if they made good money or not).

If I had rented such a house, I had paid 9.000, later 10.000 ThB, a month, and had nothing. Now I haven't nothing also, but stayed in a nice house( at least for me) for 12 years, and my wife has a house, which she wouldn't have, if I had rented.

[oogster8]

like i said buying a house for the missus is just like renting for the man. so simple.

Again at the end of everything-whats so great about having an interest in a property in esan? now if you talking downtown sukhumvit theres something worth having and passing on to heirs.

[FiftyTwo]

12 years ago my wife could get a loan from the bank, showing 6 months income ( the money came from me), a frequent practice.

During 12 years I paid the mortgage, something less than 10.000 ThB a month, at the same moment some investors bought some similar houses in the "village" and rented them for about 9.000 ThB ( Not my business if they made good money or not).

If I had rented such a house, I had paid 9.000, later 10.000 ThB, a month, and had nothing. Now I haven't nothing also, but stayed in a nice house( at least for me) for 12 years, and my wife has a house, which she wouldn't have, if I had rented.

So by your own admission,

You lost the deposit on the house (12 years interest on the deposit), 1k a month (for 12 years), and all the money you spent on repairs over and above the normal rental price.

It's great you were happy, but please don't try to convince anyone it was a sound financial decision.

I'm also buying (for her) on a home loan (her name), repayments cost me double the rental of my previous house (which I liked more), and 250k for the deposit gone. I don't view it as a sound financial decision, I view it as renting a wife.

[luckyluke]

^

What deposit?

I could have deposited 10.000 a month for 12 years and lived on the street , or use the 10.000 for rent or paying back a mortgage for a house, so I didn't had to live on the street.

[FiftyTwo]

^

What deposit?

Home loans in Thailand (and every other country of the world) normally require the prospective home owner to pay between 5% and 25% of the house price themselves. (I paid 15%)

[simon43]

My Thai ex-wives (who I get on OK with), wanted me to live nearby, so that I could help out if they had any issues with their business, (I mean not financially help out, but wire in a new power plug etc).

So I leased (for 20 years) half a rai of land down the road from them and built a nice little house for myself, nothing fancy. The lease is in my name only and registered at the Amphur office. I pay rent monthly as per the lease contract, with no key money, no deposit and no increase in rent over the 20 years.

I also built several cottages on the land for renting out. This income more than covers my land rental AND gives me a decent monthly income.

Result = a nice little house, rental income and no claim on my house or income from my ex's..

Simon

[luckyluke]

^

My wife paid 50.000 ThB, which I think is not a bad deal for her, and I am pleased with it also, as mention before.

My post was not to convince people what to do , just an information about my situation, up to the people to do what they want.

[swissie]

Dream on.

a) A loan, when granted by a Farang and can be brought into connection with any sort of land-purchase is nil and void to start with. === Foreign money can not buy Thai-Land, no matter how it' s "camouflaged". Period.

You're right, dream on.

A loan granted by a farang to a Thai can be registered at the land department and will be mentioned on the back of the title deed. So why would it be nil and void ?

Foreigners are allowed to loan to Thai citizens. When the foreigner dies before the loan is paid back it goes over to his heirs .

Correct, Foreigners are allowed to loan money to Thai's. BUT NOT IN CONNECTION WITH A LAND PURCHASE. Entry on the back of title deed: Employees at the land office in the sticks are no legal experts concerning separate property rights concerning Farangs. = Thai can do, so Falang can do !

Cheers.

[swissie]

Dream on.

a) A loan, when granted by a Farang and can be brought into connection with any sort of land-purchase is nil and void to start with. === Foreign money can not buy Thai-Land, no matter how it' s "camouflaged". Period.

Farang making repayments? By doing this, every apprentice in any law firm will immediately see the connection.

c) Is a loan granted to wife a mutual marital asset???

Cheers.

So how did I get a mortgage last year?

On house or land? Loan officers are no legal experts on separate property rights concerning Farangs. They get a commission for every mortgage they sell.

So, even if they knew, that this could possibly cause some problems for the Farang down the road, they wouldn't give "a Rat's-Ass" about future problems of just another Farang.

Cheers.

[impulse]

My Thai ex-wives (who I get on OK with), wanted me to live nearby, so that I could help out if they had any issues with their business, (I mean not financially help out, but wire in a new power plug etc).

So I leased (for 20 years) half a rai of land down the road from them and built a nice little house for myself, nothing fancy. The lease is in my name only and registered at the Amphur office. I pay rent monthly as per the lease contract, with no key money, no deposit and no increase in rent over the 20 years.

I also built several cottages on the land for renting out. This income more than covers my land rental AND gives me a decent monthly income.

Result = a nice little house, rental income and no claim on my house or income from my ex's..

Simon

Thanks for posting this. I love reading experiences where people look past the black and white -rent vs buy-, and make things work for themselves in a rather "challenging" environment. Gives me hope, some things to ponder and some ciphering to do with respect to ROI and such.

[glassdude007]

usufruct way

Translation please?

[LukKrueng]

what's wrong with you all?? instead of reading the question and answering accordingly, you all answer according to what you think about your own sick relationships with your (bought??) wives!!!

The guy asked and clarified - he's got no problems with his wife, nor is he trying to get protection FROM his wife. What he is actually asking is:

As he as a farang cannot own land here in Thailand, can the Thai government at any stage in the future confiscate the land due to wrongfully buying the land as a farang under a proxy (his wife)? or - should the wife pass away, he as a farang wont be able to inherit the land, thus losing it to some of her relatives?

I am not sure I have all the legal answers but here is what I know:

1. I never heard (but never actually bought a piece of land yet) that the farang husband must sign any document stating this property is NOT his to claim nor bought with his money. As far as I know the Thai person (wife) just buys the property as any other Thai person would.

2. Up until about 10 or 15 years ago a Thai woman who married a farang was considered a farang by the Thai low thus not allowed to own more than 49% of a business nor to buy any land - which is why most farangs at the time didn't register their marriage here in Thailand. The reason behind that law was that a marriage is A 50/50 partnership thus whatever belongs to the Thai half also belongs to the non Thai. BTW - whatever property and businesses the Thai woman had before the wedding was still hers legally, and she could have inheritted property even once married to the farang. However, this law was cancelled about 10-15 years ago, and now even a woman who is married to the farang can open new business as the main share holder and also buy land.

Again - I don't know what will happen to the land / business if the woman dies first. Maybe if you already have kids it will be transferred to them?

Anyway - good luck with the land

[wym]

You may not have heard of it, but it's very common, varies from one land office to the next, most implemented in those provinces with many mia farang.

It is illegal for a Thai to "front" for a foreigner, including wives. To be truly secure, the person registering as the owner must be able to show that they have income/assets to purchase the property themselves from their own money.

If not the ownership can be challenged at any point down the road, any time they want to crack down the "clever farang" can lose their land.

Those land offices requiring farang to sign away all future rights to the property right up front are actually protecting the ownership, at least as far as the wife is concerned.

Obviously the whole point is that Thais want to prevent foreigners owning their property. Trying to subvert that intent is very risky.

The one solid exception is if you set up a business - a genuine revenue-producing business with Thai employees etc, and as a one minor requirement for operating the business it needs property, setting up a factory etc.

But trying to use this as a loophole for the main purpose being to own land is fraudulent and therefore risky.

Just rent guys. . .

[FiftyTwo]

@wym

There is no requirement, at any land office, for a foreigner of any racial background to sign away any future rights to his wifes land or property.

[wym]

@wym

There is no requirement, at any land office, for a foreigner of any racial background to sign away any future rights to his wifes land or property.

Bejeezus maybe you should buy a clue before making such categorical statements:

http://www.thailandlawonline.com/article-older-archive/land-ownership-registration-by-a-thai-married-to-foreign-national

http://www.doingbusinessthailand.com/blog-thailand/doing-business-in-thailand/thailand-real-estate-doing-business-in-thailand/the-thai-spouse-right-to-own-land-freehold.html

http://www.thaivisa.com/ownership-of-land-in-thailand-by-a-thai-married-to-a-foreigner.html

http://www.bangkoklawonline.com/article-base-thai-law/102-land-ownership-thai-spouse/

[scotsman]

When my wife bought land in phetchabun because she has my last name on her ID card I had to bring my passport and sign a declaration that I had no claim to this land. If we build a house on this land it can be in my name I can own the house but not the land. If I wanted to I could also get a usfruct for the land for my life. If in the future something happens to my wife I would have 1 year to find another Thai person to put land in there name or if you have children you can use them. Now if the future Governments decided to change or challenge my wife's ownership to the land we will fight against this injustice in a court of law. If we lose then I flatten the house and walk away. Now I do have a house just outside Pattaya we have been living here for 14 years just before we got married I had a usfruct drawn out for land and so far no problems but who knows the what the future will be.

Regards

Scotsman

[wym]

Finally ^ someone who knows what he's talking about. . .

[johnnybgood]

When my wife bought land in phetchabun because she has my last name on her ID card I had to bring my passport and sign a declaration that I had no claim to this land. If we build a house on this land it can be in my name I can own the house but not the land. If I wanted to I could also get a usfruct for the land for my life. If in the future something happens to my wife I would have 1 year to find another Thai person to put land in there name or if you have children you can use them. Now if the future Governments decided to change or challenge my wife's ownership to the land we will fight against this injustice in a court of law. If we lose then I flatten the house and walk away. Now I do have a house just outside Pattaya we have been living here for 14 years just before we got married I had a usfruct drawn out for land and so far no problems but who knows the what the future will be.

Regards

Scotsman

Sounds good, but can you get an Usufruct for the land [ in Petchaburi ] ?

Unlike your first Usufruct you are now married.

Contracts may not be valid if made whislt legally married.

[simple1]

When my wife bought land in phetchabun because she has my last name on her ID card I had to bring my passport and sign a declaration that I had no claim to this land. If we build a house on this land it can be in my name I can own the house but not the land. If I wanted to I could also get a usfruct for the land for my life. If in the future something happens to my wife I would have 1 year to find another Thai person to put land in there name or if you have children you can use them. Now if the future Governments decided to change or challenge my wife's ownership to the land we will fight against this injustice in a court of law. If we lose then I flatten the house and walk away. Now I do have a house just outside Pattaya we have been living here for 14 years just before we got married I had a usfruct drawn out for land and so far no problems but who knows the what the future will be.

Regards

Scotsman

Sounds good, but can you get an Usufruct for the land [ in Petchaburi ] ?

Unlike your first Usufruct you are now married. Contracts may not be valid if made whislt legally married.

Correct, a quote from a Thai legal site:

It should be noted that anything done between husband and wife affecting their personal or jointly owned property (any agreements between husband and wife concerning their properties) made after the marriage can legally be reversed or amended during the marriage or within one year of the dissolution of the marriage (section 1469 civil and commercial code)

[scotsman]

When it comes to a usufruct done when married then yes it can be broken by the wife in a Divorce case but you will get a 50/50 split in all your joint assets including the house & land. But I never had a usufruct for this reason it was only to protect me from my wife's family if anything happened to my wife. Buying property in Thailand is a Gamble and you must be prepared to walk away if you lose.

regards

Scotsman

[rayongchelsea]

When it comes to a usufruct done when married then yes it can be broken by the wife in a Divorce case but you will get a 50/50 split in all your joint assets including the house & land. But I never had a usufruct for this reason it was only to protect me from my wife's family if anything happened to my wife. Buying property in Thailand is a Gamble and you must be prepared to walk away if you lose.

regards

Scotsman

Why do you have to just simply walkway. Divorce and claim what is rightfully yours under the law.

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