How to apply for the O-A Visa - Replacement Thread

[SpokaneAl]

You are missing the difference between a visa and a permission to stay.

You can make an unlimited number of entries during the one-year validity period of the visa and on every arrival get permission to stay for one year.

Once the visa has expired, you can, with a multiple-entry re-entry permit, make an unlimited number of re-entries during the remaining period of your permission to stay.

Why introduce new words if they don't signal differences. As Hobbes said, words are but wise men's counters, but they're the money of fools. As Charles Caleb Coulter said, a difference that makes no difference is no difference.

Tony from Pattaya has a "thing". It doesn't matter whether we call it a shmisa, freeza, beeza, or deeza. Let's call it a "deeza".

Tony's deeza allows him to come into Thailand on 1st January 2016 and stay for a year - i.e. he has to leave on or before the 31st December 2016.

If Tony leaves Thailand on the 15th December and returns on the 29th December 2016 - both dates within the twelve months he was originally granted - he'll get another "thing" (whatever we call it) which allows him to stay in Thailand until 28th December 2017.

Now you've assented to this: you've said it's true. The problem is that it's flatly contradictory to every other thing which is said on this issue.

You asked a question: "am I missing something?"

I took the time and trouble to answer your question as best I could.

Your ungratefulness has been noted, but it will not deter me from continuing to answer questions in this forum.

Sorry about that. When I read it I regretted the tone. It's just that if you search "O-A" or "retirement visa" using the search function you get an incredible number of hits, and it's nearly all generated by 1) the lack of a plain vanilla statement by the Thai government dealing with all of the obvious exigencies and possibilities, and 2) the use of technical terms by people who know their use, but where the use isn't transparent.

Imagine if the Thai government offered the following -

Once you have your O-A visa two major issues or questions are likely to arise. 1) Can I leave the country and return during the twelve months I have been allowed to remain in the kingdom after first entering it? 2) What need I do if I wish to remain in the kingdom in the long-term, i.e. well beyond the twelve month stay which my O-A visa initially entitles me to?

Leaving and returning to the kingdom

You are free to come and go as you please up to the last day on which you visa is valid. This will essentially be twelve months after you first entered the kingdom. So if you entered on the first of January 2017 you can leave and return without let, hindrance or any need to make any arrangement with immigration until the 31st December. You cannot......

Basically the government needs to employ someone truly bilingual - like that ginger bloke on Thai TV who is trying to teach English to Thai folk - and pay him for a day of his time. He could grill the civil servants on the rules and then produce web pages and documents free of all ambiguity. That would eliminate 99% of the visa-related traffic on this website.

But, as I say, sorry about the tone. It's hard to read intention from written text. I'd basically gone into teacher-mode.

Terms really do matter, and a great example is your discussion of a non Imm o-a multi entry visa vs. an extension of stay for the purpose or retirement.

You stated, in part "You are free to come and go as you please up to the last day on which you visa is valid. This will essentially be twelve months after you first entered the kingdom. So if you entered on the first of January 2017 you can leave and return without let, hindrance or any need to make any arrangement with immigration until the 31st December. "

When referring to the non Imm o-a multi entry visa, this is not completely correct. You are free to come and go, with no additional entry stamps up to the enter before date. So while you may enter the country a few days prior to that enter before date and now have an additional 12 months on your visa, if you were to leave after that enter before date without purchasing an additional entry stamp, your non Imm o-a multi entry visa would be dead and done.

Edited August 11, 2015 by SpokaneAl

[Isaanman]

How does all of this work with dependents who come from overseas (USA, in my case) on a Non-Immigrant O Visa to live in Thailand with those obtaining the retirement (long stay--OA) visa from abroad? Should I meet all of the requirements for a Non-Immigrant OA visa and obtain that visa from the US consulate in Washington D.C. or Chicago before going to Thailand, enter Thailand with my (American) wife (less than 50 yrs. old) and 2 kids who come with me on "O" visas (I assume), and we leave Thailand and return just before the 1-year OA visa (entry) stamp in my passport expires (thereby, enabling me to stay in the country another year from that date), what will they do with my family at the border at that time? Do they also get another year stamp (renewal?) with permission to "stay" with me in country as my dependents? Or, will they have problems at the border and need some other kind of visa? If they cannot get this 2nd year stamp, is there another way I should proceed with them, while still taking advantage of not having to re-up my 800k THB for another year? Thanks.

[Isaanman]

Is there a police order or an official consulate/embassy regulation in print on the web somewhere that explains the immigration protocol that grants this 2nd year visa permission to stay on the heels of a non-im OA visa for an entire year without having to show proof of funds in a Thai (or foreign) bank anywhere? This does seem unusual, as it is assumed, and we all would agree, Thai immigration wants to ensure that the one "staying" in the country for a "long" time a 2nd year has sufficient funds in the bank to do so. If not, why do they require annual statements to validate one's financial status? In essence, the non-immigration OA visa obtained from overseas appears to allow someone to stay in the country in this scenario for only 400k THB per year. I wonder if anyone has done this successfully; this might be one of those random times that immigration does ask to look at your bank statement as you re-enter the country!

I need to be as sure of all of this as I can be, as not needing to prove 800k in the bank the 2nd year around might be the tipping factor for our obtaining the OA visa in the US in order to purchase another crazy expensive used vehicle in the country sooner than expected. After the 2nd year, we anticipate obtaining a visa with another organization in country and would not need to maintain that kind of money in a Thai bank.

[nowretired]

Is there a police order or an official consulate/embassy regulation in print on the web somewhere that explains the immigration protocol that grants this 2nd year visa permission to stay on the heels of a non-im OA visa for an entire year without having to show proof of funds in a Thai (or foreign) bank anywhere? This does seem unusual, as it is assumed, and we all would agree, Thai immigration wants to ensure that the one "staying" in the country for a "long" time a 2nd year has sufficient funds in the bank to do so. If not, why do they require annual statements to validate one's financial status? In essence, the non-immigration OA visa obtained from overseas appears to allow someone to stay in the country in this scenario for only 400k THB per year. I wonder if anyone has done this successfully; this might be one of those random times that immigration does ask to look at your bank statement as you re-enter the country!

I need to be as sure of all of this as I can be, as not needing to prove 800k in the bank the 2nd year around might be the tipping factor for our obtaining the OA visa in the US in order to purchase another crazy expensive used vehicle in the country sooner than expected. After the 2nd year, we anticipate obtaining a visa with another organization in country and would not need to maintain that kind of money in a Thai bank.

Could you explain your final sentence in more detail?

"After the 2nd year, we anticipate obtaining a visa with another organization in country and would not need to maintain that kind of money in a Thai bank." Specifically in regard to the organisation which provides in country visas

An O/A visa does indeed, if used correctly, provide for a two year stay without having to demonstrate any in country finances.

[Craig krup]

The more you worry about the rules - and try to anticipate the problems - the worse it gets.

Take the "income" option of 65,000 baht. If you're taking dividends or bond interest from a pension or investments do they assume that if last year's came to 65,000 a month then this year's will? After all, dividends and income from bond funds can drop. If your pension doesn't drop in pound or dollar terms, but the baht strengthens, do they say, "Well, your £1400 isn't 65,000 now, is it?", or do they say, "Close enough, and currencies move, come in me old mate"?

[nowretired]

The more you worry about the rules - and try to anticipate the problems - the worse it gets.

Take the "income" option of 65,000 baht. If you're taking dividends or bond interest from a pension or investments do they assume that if last year's came to 65,000 a month then this year's will? After all, dividends and income from bond funds can drop. If your pension doesn't drop in pound or dollar terms, but the baht strengthens, do they say, "Well, your £1400 isn't 65,000 now, is it?", or do they say, "Close enough, and currencies move, come in me old mate"?

Using your own example. If an adverse exchange rate meant that if £1400 no longer equated to 65,000 Bht/month unless the shortfall is covered by money in a Thai bank any application for an extension would fail.

Close enough will not be good enough!

NB

£1400 is worth approx 70,000 at the moment!

Edited August 15, 2015 by nowretired

[Maestro]

Is there a police order or an official consulate/embassy regulation in print on the web somewhere that explains the immigration protocol that grants this 2nd year visa permission to stay on the heels of a non-im OA visa for an entire year without having to show proof of funds in a Thai (or foreign) bank anywhere?...

Currently, the non-O/A visa is available only as a multiple-entry visa valid for one year, which means that the holder of this visa can make an unlimited number of entries into Thailand during the validity period of the visa and on each entry the immigration officer will give him permission to stay for one year from the date of arrival. It is there on the visa sticker:

Number of entry: M (or Multiple)

Enter before: [date]

The period of permission to stay given by the immigration officer to a foreigner arriving with a non-O/A visa, grouped under "Other activities as prescribed in the Ministerial Regulations" in Section 34, is defined in Section 35 of the Immigration Act as "Not exceeding one year"

Section 35 authorises the Director General of the Royal Thai Police or an official deputised by him to prescribe the conditions for the permission to stay. It is reasonable to assume that these conditions include instructions to the immigration police on how to interpret the information regarding the number of entries and the "enter before date" on the visa, as well as instructions regarding the period of permission to stay "not exceeding one year". These conditions may or may not have been published; I have never seen an official, signed document on the subject.

There is also the page Non-Immigrant Visa “O-A” (Long Stay) on the website of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, but some of the information on that page is not correct.

Therefore, everything we know for certain about the "prescribed conditions" currently being used by immigration with regard to the non-O/A visa is based on the personal experience posted by Thaivisa members in this forum.

[nowretired]

Is there a police order or an official consulate/embassy regulation in print on the web somewhere that explains the immigration protocol that grants this 2nd year visa permission to stay on the heels of a non-im OA visa for an entire year without having to show proof of funds in a Thai (or foreign) bank anywhere?...

Currently, the non-O/A visa is available only as a multiple-entry visa valid for one year, which means that the holder of this visa can make an unlimited number of entries into Thailand during the validity period of the visa and on each entry the immigration officer will give him permission to stay for one year. It is there on the visa sticker:

Number or entry: M (or Multiple)

Enter before: [date]

The period of permission to stay given by the immigration officer to a foreigner arriving with a non-O/A visa is defined in Section 35 of the Immigration Act as "Not exceeding one year"

Section 35 authorises the Director General of the Royal Thai Police or an official deputised by him to prescribe the conditions for the permission to stay. It is reasonable to assume that these conditions include instructions to the immigration police on how to interpret the information regarding the number of entries and the "enter before date" on the visa, as well as instructions regarding the period of permission to stay "not exceeding one year". These conditions may or may not have been published; I have never seen an official, signed document on the subject.

There is also the page Non-Immigrant Visa “O-A” (Long Stay) on the website of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, but some of the information on that page is not correct.

Therefore, everything we know for certain about the "prescribed conditions" currently being used by immigration with regard to the non-O/A visa is based on the personal experience posted by Thaivisa members in this forum.

Agreed.

All multi entry visas function in the same manner which explains how a fifteen month stay can be obtained from a 12 month multi entry "O" visa.

Edited August 15, 2015 by nowretired

[Isaanman]

You asked if I could you explain my final sentence in more detail. ("After the 2nd year, we anticipate obtaining a visa with another organization in country and would not need to maintain that kind of money in a Thai bank.")

My family and I intend on working with one of numerous possible NGOs in country. Some of these organizations have visa slots and could provide us with visas to stay in the country for successive years. However, we are not sure yet which group we will ultimately end up working with. It could take many months for us to determine this. If we have not made this decision by the end of 9 months into our first year in Thailand, it would be nice to take advantage of the 2nd year "permission to stay" on country associated with the Non-immigrant O/A visa obtained abroad being discussed in these threads. Though, we will have sufficient income to provide us a decent living in country, we might not have the necessary funds to stash and not use 800k THB in a Thai bank for 2+ months while we wait for our retirement visa to be extended, should we apply for that in country (as opposed to obtaining it in the US before we go). I paid 300k THB for a used car in Thailand the last time we lived over there and, if I bought a car just on the heels of our arrival (along with all of the other expenses to settle down somewhere), I might have a difficult time coming up with 800k THB later in the year--needed to extend a retirement visa applied for in country.

This is why I am trying to understand how this "permission to stay" in Thailand for another year year with an O/A visa obtained in the US will affect my family members (who will merely have "O" visas) when they return with me towards the end of my first year on the O/A visa. If they will only receive an additional 90-days to remain in country (as opposed to 1-year), we will be in a bad way! I am assuming from the fee schedule for visas written on the Thai Consulate in Chicago http://www.thaiconsulatechicago.org/pages-visa-types-purpose-of-visit-fee-eng.html that I could spend $200 for multiple entry Non-immigrant "O" visa for each of my family members before we enter the country and that they would also be permitted to enter the country for another year with me (with my O/A visa) just before the visa expires, if I am reading all of the posts in this thread correctly. We have only had 90-day non-immigrant O visas in the past (except the time 11 years ago when the Thai consulate in Chicago made a typo and gave my wife a 3-year visa--talk about turning every head at immigration every time we made a visa run )!

Thanks for your clarification in these matters.

[nowretired]

You asked if I could you explain my final sentence in more detail. ("After the 2nd year, we anticipate obtaining a visa with another organization in country and would not need to maintain that kind of money in a Thai bank.")

My family and I intend on working with one of numerous possible NGOs in country. Some of these organizations have visa slots and could provide us with visas to stay in the country for successive years. However, we are not sure yet which group we will ultimately end up working with. It could take many months for us to determine this. If we have not made this decision by the end of 9 months into our first year in Thailand, it would be nice to take advantage of the 2nd year "permission to stay" on country associated with the Non-immigrant O/A visa obtained abroad being discussed in these threads. Though, we will have sufficient income to provide us a decent living in country, we might not have the necessary funds to stash and not use 800k THB in a Thai bank for 2+ months while we wait for our retirement visa to be extended, should we apply for that in country (as opposed to obtaining it in the US before we go). I paid 300k THB for a used car in Thailand the last time we lived over there and, if I bought a car just on the heels of our arrival (along with all of the other expenses to settle down somewhere), I might have a difficult time coming up with 800k THB later in the year--needed to extend a retirement visa applied for in country.

This is why I am trying to understand how this "permission to stay" in Thailand for another year year with an O/A visa obtained in the US will affect my family members (who will merely have "O" visas) when they return with me towards the end of my first year on the O/A visa. If they will only receive an additional 90-days to remain in country (as opposed to 1-year), we will be in a bad way! I am assuming from the fee schedule for visas written on the Thai Consulate in Chicago http://www.thaiconsulatechicago.org/pages-visa-types-purpose-of-visit-fee-eng.html that I could spend $200 for multiple entry Non-immigrant "O" visa for each of my family members before we enter the country and that they would also be permitted to enter the country for another year with me (with my O/A visa) just before the visa expires, if I am reading all of the posts in this thread correctly. We have only had 90-day non-immigrant O visas in the past (except the time 11 years ago when the Thai consulate in Chicago made a typo and gave my wife a 3-year visa--talk about turning every head at immigration every time we made a visa run )!

Thanks for your clarification in these matters.

Sorry but non of these "NGO'S" have "visa" slots and non of them can provide visas. The only thing an NGO will do is provide a supporting letter to support an application for an appropriate visa which will have to be made outside Thailand. It is extremely unlikely that a visa obtained on the basis of "volunteering" would give more than a ninety day stay and extensions of stay based on volunteering are difficult to obtain unless supported by a senior government official.

Working for an NGO also requires a work permit-

I would urge great caution and some intensive focused research before going down the volunteer path.

I suggest you start a new thread in relation to your O/A visa and your family situation.

Edited August 15, 2015 by nowretired

[ubonjoe]

There are many pitfalls that you have not considered when ti comes to working for a charitable organization or NGO.

You more than likely will only 90 day extensions of stay up to one year of total stay from a non-o visa entry and after that year you would have to leave the country go out for a new non-o visa.

Also you stated your family would be with you. Unless they are all working for the organization they would noy be able to get extension of stay. Family members of people getting extensions as a volunteer do not qualify for dependent extensions.

You should look at clauses 2.20 and 2.21 of Police Order 327/2557 basis for extension of stay.

[Isaanman]

Obviously, I am mistaken in my understanding of the nature of the various groups in Thailand that we are considering gaining our visa or (more likely) support letter to stay. They must not be NGOs, rather foundations (or something similar), as I personally know some people working in/through a couple of them and they definitely do not have to leave the country every year to be reissued a visa. We obtained a visa like the one you guys are describing during our first stint in Thailand back in 2001 and had to leave the country after almost 15 months (1 year + the additional 90 days for re-entering Thailand just prior to its expiration). We had to travel to the Embassy in Perth, AU to renew it--a totally expensive proposition to be avoided! That original visa was a Non-immigrant "O" visa. Our friends do have to report to immigration every 90 days; but, they do not have to leave the country every year. I do know they have to submit paper work and have their "work" assessed annually internally to the foundation through which they obtain their visa. Beyond this, I am not sure of all the details and would rather find them out in person over there.

These are the kinds of things that we need to learn during our first year or two back in country. In the end, it may prove wiser to just apply for the O/A here in the US and toward the end of the 2nd year apply for an extension of it in country and just continue to stay there with that. My only concern (meaning I just don't know the reuang) is that the retirement visa in the end might hinder us from being able to do anything (volunteer-wise) whatsoever in the country. But, that is probably something to take up or track down on another thread in the forum along with the matter of the initial visa needs of my family members on an O/A visa. Thanks

[nowretired]

Obviously, I am mistaken in my understanding of the nature of the various groups in Thailand that we are considering gaining our visa or (more likely) support letter to stay. They must not be NGOs, rather foundations (or something similar), as I personally know some people working in/through a couple of them and they definitely do not have to leave the country every year to be reissued a visa. We obtained a visa like the one you guys are describing during our first stint in Thailand back in 2001 and had to leave the country after almost 15 months (1 year + the additional 90 days for re-entering Thailand just prior to its expiration). We had to travel to the Embassy in Perth, AU to renew it--a totally expensive proposition to be avoided! That original visa was a Non-immigrant "O" visa. Our friends do have to report to immigration every 90 days; but, they do not have to leave the country every year. I do know they have to submit paper work and have their "work" assessed annually internally to the foundation through which they obtain their visa. Beyond this, I am not sure of all the details and would rather find them out in person over there.

These are the kinds of things that we need to learn during our first year or two back in country. In the end, it may prove wiser to just apply for the O/A here in the US and toward the end of the 2nd year apply for an extension of it in country and just continue to stay there with that. My only concern (meaning I just don't know the reuang) is that the retirement visa in the end might hinder us from being able to do anything (volunteer-wise) whatsoever in the country. But, that is probably something to take up or track down on another thread in the forum along with the matter of the initial visa needs of my family members on an O/A visa. Thanks

Perhaps it would help if you asked your friends to detail exactly on what basis they stay in Thailand . Also ask if they would scan and copy their visa/extension of stay stamps.

Once you have that detail you could post it here (anonymised) for members to consider. We may learn something.

[Sophon]

You are missing the difference between a visa and a permission to stay.

You can make an unlimited number of entries during the one-year validity period of the visa and on every arrival get permission to stay for one year.

Once the visa has expired, you can, with a multiple-entry re-entry permit, make an unlimited number of re-entries during the remaining period of your permission to stay.

Why introduce new words if they don't signal differences. As Hobbes said, words are but wise men's counters, but they're the money of fools. As Charles Caleb Coulter said, a difference that makes no difference is no difference.

Tony from Pattaya has a "thing". It doesn't matter whether we call it a shmisa, freeza, beeza, or deeza. Let's call it a "deeza".

Tony's deeza allows him to come into Thailand on 1st January 2016 and stay for a year - i.e. he has to leave on or before the 31st December 2016.

If Tony leaves Thailand on the 15th December and returns on the 29th December 2016 - both dates within the twelve months he was originally granted - he'll get another "thing" (whatever we call it) which allows him to stay in Thailand until 28th December 2017.

Now you've assented to this: you've said it's true. The problem is that it's flatly contradictory to every other thing which is said on this issue.

You asked a question: "am I missing something?"

I took the time and trouble to answer your question as best I could.

Your ungratefulness has been noted, but it will not deter me from continuing to answer questions in this forum.

Sorry about that. When I read it I regretted the tone. It's just that if you search "O-A" or "retirement visa" using the search function you get an incredible number of hits, and it's nearly all generated by 1) the lack of a plain vanilla statement by the Thai government dealing with all of the obvious exigencies and possibilities, and 2) the use of technical terms by people who know their use, but where the use isn't transparent.

Imagine if the Thai government offered the following -

Once you have your O-A visa two major issues or questions are likely to arise. 1) Can I leave the country and return during the twelve months I have been allowed to remain in the kingdom after first entering it? 2) What need I do if I wish to remain in the kingdom in the long-term, i.e. well beyond the twelve month stay which my O-A visa initially entitles me to?

Leaving and returning to the kingdom

You are free to come and go as you please up to the last day on which you visa is valid. This will essentially be twelve months after you first entered the kingdom. So if you entered on the first of January 2017 you can leave and return without let, hindrance or any need to make any arrangement with immigration until the 31st December. You cannot......

Basically the government needs to employ someone truly bilingual - like that ginger bloke on Thai TV who is trying to teach English to Thai folk - and pay him for a day of his time. He could grill the civil servants on the rules and then produce web pages and documents free of all ambiguity. That would eliminate 99% of the visa-related traffic on this website.

But, as I say, sorry about the tone. It's hard to read intention from written text. I'd basically gone into teacher-mode.

One important error in your explanation:

You are free to come and go as you please up to the last day on which you visa is valid. This will essentially be twelve months after you first entered the kingdom. So if you entered on the first of January 2017 you can leave and return without let, hindrance or any need to make any arrangement with immigration until the 31st December. You cannot......

The visa is valid for entry one year after it was issued, not one year after your first entry.

Sophon

Edited August 18, 2015 by Sophon

[Craig krup]

One important error in your explanation:

You are free to come and go as you please up to the last day on which you visa is valid. This will essentially be twelve months after you first entered the kingdom. So if you entered on the first of January 2017 you can leave and return without let, hindrance or any need to make any arrangement with immigration until the 31st December. You cannot......

The visa is valid for entry one year after it was issued, not one year after your first entry.

Sophon

You can still squeeze more than 15 months out of it, though, I think, can't you. Leave and re-enter eleven months after issue and you're sorted for another 12 months, no? So nearly two years before you have to show that you've swapped hard currency for local stuff.