Cost of living

[khunPer]

Cost of living

There have been a number of posts recently in TVForum about costs of living and comparison to other places like England and USA. Just read a little story in Danish news about most expensive cities with a link to “Expatistan's Cost of Living World Map”, where London hit number 1 with a price index of 281, whilst Bangkok has an index of 115 only and rank number 132.

The Top 10 is:

1 London (United Kingdom), 280

2 Oslo (Norway), 267

3 Geneva (Switzerland), 259

4 Zurich (Switzerland), 256

5 New York City (United States), 237

6 Lausanne (Switzerland), 233

7 Singapore (Singapore), 228

8 Paris (France), 219

9 San Francisco (United States), 218

10 Copenhagen (Denmark), 217

11 Sydney (Australia), 215

15 Stockholm (Sweden), 204

76 Berlin (Germany), 150

132 Bangkok (Thailand), 115

175 Chiang Mai (Thailand), 77

»What is the Cost of Living Index? To calculate each cities' Cost of Living Index value, we start by assigning a value of 100 to a central reference city (that happens to be Prague). Once the reference point has been stablished, the Price Index value of every other city in the database is calculated by comparing their cost of living to the cost of living in Prague. Therefore, if a city has a Price Index of 134, that means that living there is 34% more expensive than living in Prague.«

The complete major Index can be found here:

http://www.expatistan.com/cost-of-living/index

Detailled Index of all cities, including for example Cambodia and other towns in Thailand, like Hua Hin, Phuket, Nakhon Ratchasima (Korat), Udon Thani etc.:

http://www.expatistan.com/cost-of-living/all-cities

Posts about that Thailand is not cheap at all anymore and filling a shopping cart is same price as at Tesco in Britain now can more easily be compared. For each city there is a detailed index of prices and currency can be selected for comparison, for example in GBP, USD or THB.

For example in Thai baht:

Daily menu in the business district: BKK 225; NYC 530; LON 724

12 eggs, large: BKK 59; NYC 112; LON 152

2 liters of Coca-Cola: BKK 37; NYC 81; LON 106

Monthly rent for 85 m2 (expensive area): BKK 45,898; NYC 134,650; LON 146,057

Hourly rate for cleaning help: BKK 161; NYC 783; LON 583

1 pair of Levis 501: BKK 2,871; NYC 2,017; LON 3,892

Volkswagen Golf 2.0 (or equivalent): BKK 1,707,390; NYC 1,021,621; LON 1,244,944

1 liter (1/4 gallon) of gas: BKK 39; NYC 36; LON 75

1pt/500ml beer in neighbourhood pub: BKK 98; NYC 214; LON 214

1 min. of prepaid mobile tariff: BKK 2.33; NYC 15; LON 12

1 package of Marlboro cigarettes: BKK 91; NYC 408; LON 450

…etc. etc.

Detailed comparison lists of above can be found here:

BKK: http://www.expatistan.com/cost-of-living/bangkok

NYC: http://www.expatistan.com/cost-of-living/new-york-city?currency=THB

LON: http://www.expatistan.com/cost-of-living/london?currency=THB

Believe it may be interesting for some of you ThaiVisa folks. You may be able to find you own homeland city, or area, and compare with where you live.

[NeverSure]

I can speak only for the US and Thailand.

They picked the three most expensive places to live in the US, by far. By far.

They did choose Chiang Mai, but it isn't the cheapest place to live in LOS.

For those trying to economize in either the US or Thailand, the list is worthless.

[dotx]

Singapore is REALLY high in the list. I thought it was really expensive when I was there, but wow.

[MrWorldwide]

I can speak only for the US and Thailand.

They picked the three most expensive places to live in the US, by far. By far.

They did choose Chiang Mai, but it isn't the cheapest place to live in LOS.

For those trying to economize in either the US or Thailand, the list is worthless.

I thought the OP's point was that the most expensive city in Thailand - BKK - barely rates in comparison to it's competition anywhere. These lists are more entertainment value than anything else, but its all grist for the mill. End of the day, I dont really care what it costs to live in Dogpatch, AK - I do care what it costs to live in Asia. YMMV.

[MrWorldwide]

Singapore is REALLY high in the list. I thought it was really expensive when I was there, but wow.

Developed economy, high wages and a severe shortage of land for development - pretty much the exact opposite of many of Singapore's neighbours. I studied at a Brisbane Uni with a Singaporean gal back in the early 90s - when her boyfriend completed his Dentistry degree (serious $$$) in Perth, he drove across the Nullarbor in the brand new BMW his parents bought him to reward him for his efforts. One can only imagine that their investment has been repaid many times over in the ~18 years since. Fanatical students, but I suspect the Koreans and Taiwanese have them looking over their shoulders now.

[NeverSure]

I can speak only for the US and Thailand.

They picked the three most expensive places to live in the US, by far. By far.

They did choose Chiang Mai, but it isn't the cheapest place to live in LOS.

For those trying to economize in either the US or Thailand, the list is worthless.

I thought the OP's point was that the most expensive city in Thailand - BKK - barely rates in comparison to it's competition anywhere. These lists are more entertainment value than anything else, but its all grist for the mill. End of the day, I dont really care what it costs to live in Dogpatch, AK - I do care what it costs to live in Asia. YMMV.

I didn't get that. Have you seen San Francisco? My God it's gorgeous. And then compare it with a shit hole like Bangkok?

I would have enjoyed looking at comparisons of Asian cities, or first world cities, but I just don't see how Bangkok even fits on the list.

[iancnx]

I am sure the list is useful for some comparisons, such as rental, petrol and entertainment costs. But it is flawed. For example I can buy Levi's in London for much less than in BKK, but the list suggests otherwise. Also beer in many places in BKK is more expensive that the average pub in UK, but,if of course, you buy a bottle in 7/11 it will be half the cost of say Tesco Metro.

[jackr]

Bangkok is not vastly more expensive than other cities in Thailand like, say, London is compared with rest of UK. Picking up on the price of beer; a pint of 'real' ale or Guinness anywhere in the kingdom is more expensive than UK. That 98 baht is likely for a pint of Chang draft lol. Wines and cheeses are more. Quality clothes can be had at a snip in real sales, not so here. Rent and fuel are less but look at the wage difference. At the end of the day, Thailand is a 'developing' nation; the cost of living has gone up at least 50% in the last few years in large part to this naff 'government'. Nuff said.

[MrWorldwide]

I can speak only for the US and Thailand.

They picked the three most expensive places to live in the US, by far. By far.

They did choose Chiang Mai, but it isn't the cheapest place to live in LOS.

For those trying to economize in either the US or Thailand, the list is worthless.

I thought the OP's point was that the most expensive city in Thailand - BKK - barely rates in comparison to it's competition anywhere. These lists are more entertainment value than anything else, but its all grist for the mill. End of the day, I dont really care what it costs to live in Dogpatch, AK - I do care what it costs to live in Asia. YMMV.

I didn't get that. Have you seen San Francisco? My God it's gorgeous. And then compare it with a shit hole like Bangkok?

I would have enjoyed looking at comparisons of Asian cities, or first world cities, but I just don't see how Bangkok even fits on the list.

I havent seen SF, but I believe it has a Winter - a real Winter. Perhaps not a Des Moines Winter, but anything resembling Melbourne's Winter is so far off my radar it's not funny, If I was going to look at a US town, it would be somewhere like Savannah, Georgia, but that's purely based on what I've read and I expect that even in Georgia Winter would annoy me. In any case, I would need a visa to stay in the US - all foreigners without a long-stay visa have to do in Malaysia is leave the country every 90 days. No 9-12 hour flight, no thousand dollar plane ticket - if I wanted to, I could catch a bus to Bangkok : hardly my idea of a good time, but the option is there. I've caught it from Chumphon, so I have some idea what I'd be in for from Ipoh or thereabouts - its good to have options even if they arent the most comfortable options.

As for BKK being a shithole, ever been to Jakarta ? Can't believe I'm even considering going back in May when I know what's waiting for me - the horror, the horror

[Ajaan]

<snip> Have you seen San Francisco? My God it's gorgeous. And then compare it with a shit hole like Bangkok?

<snip>

A shit hole compared in San Francisco in some respects, perhaps, but I would never walk through ANY neighborhood of San Franciso drunk, alone, at 4 am, carrying a $600 USD phone and the equivalent of $200 USD cash in my pocket. I do that all the time in several different neighborhoods in Bangkok, and have been doing so for over a decade. Safest city of 10 million on Earth.

Edited January 15, 2014 by Ajaan

[Ajaan]

I can speak only for the US and Thailand.

They picked the three most expensive places to live in the US, by far. By far.

They did choose Chiang Mai, but it isn't the cheapest place to live in LOS.

For those trying to economize in either the US or Thailand, the list is worthless.

I thought the OP's point was that the most expensive city in Thailand - BKK - barely rates in comparison to it's competition anywhere. These lists are more entertainment value than anything else, but its all grist for the mill. End of the day, I dont really care what it costs to live in Dogpatch, AK - I do care what it costs to live in Asia. YMMV.

I didn't get that. Have you seen San Francisco? My God it's gorgeous. And then compare it with a shit hole like Bangkok?

I would have enjoyed looking at comparisons of Asian cities, or first world cities, but I just don't see how Bangkok even fits on the list.

I havent seen SF, but I believe it has a Winter - a real Winter. Perhaps not a Des Moines Winter, but anything resembling Melbourne's Winter is so far off my radar it's not funny, If I was going to look at a US town, it would be somewhere like Savannah, Georgia, but that's purely based on what I've read and I expect that even in Georgia Winter would annoy me. In any case, I would need a visa to stay in the US - all foreigners without a long-stay visa have to do in Malaysia is leave the country every 90 days. No 9-12 hour flight, no thousand dollar plane ticket - if I wanted to, I could catch a bus to Bangkok : hardly my idea of a good time, but the option is there. I've caught it from Chumphon, so I have some idea what I'd be in for from Ipoh or thereabouts - its good to have options even if they arent the most comfortable options.

As for BKK being a shithole, ever been to Jakarta ? Can't believe I'm even considering going back in May when I know what's waiting for me - the horror, the horror

Just for the record, San Francisco does not have anything approaching a real winter, haha...it never falls below 0 Celsius (and even that's rare), and snow is pretty much impossible there. Unfortunately, it doesn't have a real summer, either...

[MrWorldwide]

Ajaan check out vids of surfers in the Northern CA Winter and compare those to the majority of vids of Australians surfing our east coast in the Winter months. At worst, I needed a 3mm steamer in Sydney and I have *never* worn gloves or - gasp - a hood. Not sure what the air temp is, but that's some seriously cold water and I'm told the wind goes straight through you. Throw in a moister climate than many parts of Oz and I know I wouldnt like it. Even the equatorial heat and humidity of SE Asia beats weather that makes me want to lock myself in an apartment and get hammered every night - if I cant handle Oz Winters, I sure as hell wouldnt handle the Winter in NorCal.

[thailiketoo]

San Francisco is a small city, 8 hundred thousand people that does not have a winter. Bangkok is a big town with 10 million.

A couple of hundred US dollars a month will get you a small place to live in Bangkok. A couple hundred a month will buy you a storage locker for your underwear in San Francisco.

So who do you ask about prices? A guy who has never been to San Francisco debated by another guy who has never been to Bangkok. It is an interesting concept.

I've lived in both cities. No comparison really, except in GDP. San Francisco is $306 and BKK is $262 (billions) and lots of guys in miniskirts in both towns (BKK they guys in skirts are better looking),

When I got up this morning it was 16 C in Thailand. San Francisco is 14 C. Jan. is winter in California.

Edited January 15, 2014 by thailiketoo

[Ajaan]

Ajaan check out vids of surfers in the Northern CA Winter and compare those to the majority of vids of Australians surfing our east coast in the Winter months. At worst, I needed a 3mm steamer in Sydney and I have *never* worn gloves or - gasp - a hood. Not sure what the air temp is, but that's some seriously cold water and I'm told the wind goes straight through you. Throw in a moister climate than many parts of Oz and I know I wouldnt like it. Even the equatorial heat and humidity of SE Asia beats weather that makes me want to lock myself in an apartment and get hammered every night - if I cant handle Oz Winters, I sure as hell wouldnt handle the Winter in NorCal.

Haha, no, you would definitely not survive winter here! I spend 5 months a year here and 3 months in Thailand (after previously living in Bangkok 6 years all year), and I'm always miserable in San Fran. With my statement, I was comparing it more to other places in the US, which do have "real winters".

[canman]

They seem to have missed Luanda in Angola. Unless there have been some major changes in the last 6 months that is the most expensive city for expats.

[canman]

Just had a look and Caracas looks to be up there as well: http://www.cnbc.com/id/101248453

[recycler]

These comparisons are always a bit misleading as they are based on disputable selection of what you can spend.

After living in Thailand for 10 years I was surprised as to how cheap London is right now and than I'm talking about many things. Housing and petrol are the exceptions, but for most other things there's not much difference between Thailand and the UK.

If you count in the cost of decent eduction Thailand is much more expensive than most of our home countries. For expat kids you easily pay half a million Baht in school fees per year.

If you live more or less like the locals you can live cheap in Thailand, but not as cheap as 10 years ago. As soon as you want proper education for your kids, bi-lingual or international and you want some western comforts the difference is not that big with western Europe anymore.

[iancnx]

I agree my last trip to UK in November I was amazed by how cheap London was for day to day expenses. I would move back but no longer on property ladder. Best thing about that though is here no mortgage and no cr card debt.

[Pinot]

Someone beat me to the comparison of the safety of Bangkok versus San Francisco. US cities are dangerous at night. You're asking for trouble wandering around.

One point on the numbers. The automobiles aren't a good comparison.

Volkswagen Golf 2.0 (or equivalent): BKK 1,707,390; NYC 1,021,621; LON 1,244,944

Substitute a Honda Jazz in there for 700,000 or any other Golf sized sedan manufactured in LOS for a better comparison.

[punnawithi]

San Francisco is a small city, 8 hundred thousand people that does not have a winter. Bangkok is a big town with 10 million.

A couple of hundred US dollars a month will get you a small place to live in Bangkok. A couple hundred a month will buy you a storage locker for your underwear in San Francisco.

So who do you ask about prices? A guy who has never been to San Francisco debated by another guy who has never been to Bangkok. It is an interesting concept.

I've lived in both cities. No comparison really, except in GDP. San Francisco is $306 and BKK is $262 (billions) and lots of guys in miniskirts in both towns (BKK they guys in skirts are better looking),

When I got up this morning it was 16 C in Thailand. San Francisco is 14 C. Jan. is winter in California.

[NeverSure]

I'm not going to quote anyone because I don't want this to seem personal. Bangkok is a shit hole compared to a first world country. It literally stinks of sewage.

Dangerous in San Fran? Someone hasn't paid attention to the gun murder and gun crime rates in Thailand vs the US, or the road deaths per capita. Thailand has far higher numbers in all such categories. Thailand is downright dangerous. We all know of neighborhoods in all large cities we should stay out of, and I would hope we do.

The idea that San Francisco has a harsh winter is a mistaken one.

The only thing I can think of that's cheaper in Bangkok is housing, and it's a lot cheaper. But you get what you pay for. If you get out of San Francisco, or even California and into other areas, housing gets a lot cheaper in the US. So now the only thing that's truly cheaper, averaging everything, is the women in Thailand. And that only if you're careful.

[wym]

Statistics for Thais don't usually apply to foreigners here, Bangkok is infinitely safer than I've felt in ANY western city of any size including northern western Europe, Australia etc, and I've lived in dozens.

I rented a room for a secondary partner in the middle of the Khlong Toei slums and used to walk between there and Rama IV all times of day and night, including between 2 and 6am all the time.

Never once did I feel any threat from the glue-sniffing yabaa smoking idjits walking around.

And transportation, health care, tasty food and lots more is a lot more expensive in SF.

But of course it's the price of nooky that drives most of us, don't pretend that isn't important!

[thailiketoo]

I'm not going to quote anyone because I don't want this to seem personal. Bangkok is a shit hole compared to a first world country. It literally stinks of sewage.

Dangerous in San Fran? Someone hasn't paid attention to the gun murder and gun crime rates in Thailand vs the US, or the road deaths per capita. Thailand has far higher numbers in all such categories. Thailand is downright dangerous. We all know of neighborhoods in all large cities we should stay out of, and I would hope we do.

The idea that San Francisco has a harsh winter is a mistaken one.

The only thing I can think of that's cheaper in Bangkok is housing, and it's a lot cheaper. But you get what you pay for. If you get out of San Francisco, or even California and into other areas, housing gets a lot cheaper in the US. So now the only thing that's truly cheaper, averaging everything, is the women in Thailand. And that only if you're careful.

What you are saying just is not true. Housing is not cheaper in any equivalent location. You have been proved wrong time and time again while posting here but you still post the same erroneous information. When proved wrong you fall back on the, well it is not built as well. A short term renter does not really care what the building will look like in 20 years. I know I don't. Millions of Thais live cheaper than you with the same social class that you think you are. The fact is a man can live a middle class life with wife here on Social Security having started from scratch. That is not possible in the States.

Now you will bring up medical care in the USA and how good it is. Well medical errors are the third-leading cause of death in America, behind heart disease, which is the first, and cancer, which is second.

Me? I'm going to stay out of American hospitals.

http://www.propublica.org/article/how-many-die-from-medical-mistakes-in-us-hospitals

Edited January 16, 2014 by thailiketoo

[Dannyboy6]

Ajaan check out vids of surfers in the Northern CA Winter and compare those to the majority of vids of Australians surfing our east coast in the Winter months. At worst, I needed a 3mm steamer in Sydney and I have *never* worn gloves or - gasp - a hood. Not sure what the air temp is, but that's some seriously cold water and I'm told the wind goes straight through you. Throw in a moister climate than many parts of Oz and I know I wouldnt like it. Even the equatorial heat and humidity of SE Asia beats weather that makes me want to lock myself in an apartment and get hammered every night - if I cant handle Oz Winters, I sure as hell wouldnt handle the Winter in NorCal.

Haha, no, you would definitely not survive winter here! I spend 5 months a year here and 3 months in Thailand (after previously living in Bangkok 6 years all year), and I'm always miserable in San Fran. With my statement, I was comparing it more to other places in the US, which do have "real winters".

. When I return to San Francisco, I Cry, and I'm not Gay, Not that there's anything wrong with that... I hate this country...

[Dannyboy6]

Ajaan check out vids of surfers in the Northern CA Winter and compare those to the majority of vids of Australians surfing our east coast in the Winter months. At worst, I needed a 3mm steamer in Sydney and I have *never* worn gloves or - gasp - a hood. Not sure what the air temp is, but that's some seriously cold water and I'm told the wind goes straight through you. Throw in a moister climate than many parts of Oz and I know I wouldnt like it. Even the equatorial heat and humidity of SE Asia beats weather that makes me want to lock myself in an apartment and get hammered every night - if I cant handle Oz Winters, I sure as hell wouldnt handle the Winter in NorCal.

Haha, no, you would definitely not survive winter here! I spend 5 months a year here and 3 months in Thailand (after previously living in Bangkok 6 years all year), and I'm always miserable in San Fran. With my statement, I was comparing it more to other places in the US, which do have "real winters".

. When I return to San Francisco, I Cry, and I'm not Gay, Not that there's anything wrong with that... I hate this country...

there seems to be alot of San Franciscans on TV.

[khunPer]

Another comparison method is the Big Mac Index, invented by The Economist as »a lighthearted guide to whether currencies are at their “correct” level.« For those who are interested the January 2014 Big Mac Index can be found here:

http://www.economist.com/content/big-mac-index

Top of the list is again Norway with 7.80$. Thailand ranks near the bottom with an Index price of 96 baht (2.92$), implying that the currency exchange rate is undervalued, around 20 baht to the dollar. Average price of a Big Mac in America in January 2014 was 4.62$, Britain 4.63$ and 4.96$ in the Euro-area.

Seems like we can get some 35 to 40 per cent more for our money when eating Big Mac only – and presumably later a huge bill from Bangkok Hospital for fixing the damages…!

With all respect of doubt to what that kind of Index can show – and a comment to above posters mentioning how a wise expat would choose, like a local manufactured Honda or Toyota car rather than am imported VW – IMO an Index can still be used as some kind of general comparison or proof of how we feel prices are. It’s not a question of finding cheap bargains, but comparable products at a kind of normal price in the compared countries.

I have an impression that I, in an overall mix of daily living costs, get about the double for my money here than if I lived in my home country, Denmark – the “Expatistan's Cost of Living World Map” Index states I shall have a bit more, which may be correct if I do a specified calculation – but it also depends of life style, like eating Thai food is cheap here but quite expensive in Europe vs. eating Western-style farang food.

That fits quite well with our doubts, when reading older books and posts on the Internet stating that you can “live in paradise for pennies on the dollar”, and the feeling that Thailand is becoming expensive. When I moved to here more than eight years ago, my calculation was that I could get about three times as much for my money, now I think more likely double only. On top taxes, heating expenses etc. still make the move worth a lot, just looked at from a financial point of view; other reasons for moving may be beyond valuation – (so far) I don’t regret.

[punnawithi]

Hi, I usually don't post here, but I have to say this: Born and raised in Germany, I have been living in California for 27 yrs, 23 of those in the Bay Area. From San Fran down to San Jose, also called the Peninsula, or as the world knows it, Sillicon Valley, a six figure income will barely get you by, Kids in their 20's make 6 to 7 figure income in this area. All the big high tech co. (Google, Yahoo, SAP, Twitter, Facebook, Sysco etc) are at home here. That pretty much dictates the housing market and cost of living. If you don't have at least 1Million US in cash to purchase a home, don't even start looking.

I came to Bangkok because of the weather (California weather is better than the weather in Germany, but still not hot enough for me), the food and diversity. In my opinion, cost of living is still lower here than in California by far. Yes, prices have definitely gone up in Thailand since I visited first in the mid 80's, but still, here I don't need a car, I wouldn't be able to find an apartment that size that location in the Bay Area (I am not talking East Bay) and on top of that, I can keep cost down by shopping wisely and avoid eating in American chain restaurants.

If you disagree that's ok. Just plan a trip to San Fran, and hang out for a while. A cab ride from the airport to the city (20 min) will already set you back 60 bux (just to get a cart for your luggage is $5).

Just saying...

[NeverSure]

Of course San Francisco is more expensive than Bangkok. But to me that's like saying that a really good steak is more expensive than a piece of hamburger. It isn't apples and apples. Compared to San Francisco, Bangkok is a shit hole.

Most of the smallest cars and the pickups sold in Thailand aren't sold in the US because they don't meet crash test standards. So comparing the cost of a Golf is fair.

How many times do I have to post the clear fact that Thailand has the 3rd highest gun murder rate in the world. I've posted those links so many times I'm not going to do it again. It is far higher than the US. Also, I'm not, one more time, posting a link to prove that the overall crime rate in the US has fallen by 1/2 in the past 20 years.

So don't tell me about safety. Not to mention road deaths.

Now, there are wonderful places to live in the US at a fraction of the cost of San Francisco, all with first world infrastructure. There is no such place in Thailand.

[baneko]

They seem to have missed Luanda in Angola. Unless there have been some major changes in the last 6 months that is the most expensive city for expats.

Correct. I work in Luanda...very expensive. Weigh your food on the plate and $15 dollars for pasta and salad in the subsidised staff canteen.

Edited February 6, 2014 by baneko

[wym]

How many times do I have to post the clear fact that Thailand has the 3rd highest gun murder rate in the world. I've posted those links so many times I'm not going to do it again. It is far higher than the US. Also, I'm not, one more time, posting a link to prove that the overall crime rate in the US has fallen by 1/2 in the past 20 years.

So don't tell me about safety. Not to mention road deaths.

Not arguing with your other issues, but on this one I'd like to point out that the overall crime rate isn't so relevant to visitors here, especially gun murders.

Most US cities are relatively unsafe FOR ME, certainly many areas I won't feel comfortable even driving much less walking around at 2am.

Here I do so everywhere, even in those areas most densely populated with glue-sniffing teenage gangs, and have never had any feeling of being unsafe.

Now con games petty theft overcharging whatever sure, but once you know the score pretty easy to minimize those types of losses.

This one factor is a HUGE one for me, especially with little kids.

The places where I'd feel as safe in the states don't have a lot of economic activity going on and IMO are extremely boring, don't have any interest in most people living there, while personally I find the Thais very interesting precisely because they're so different from myself.

But all this has little to do with COL.