Criteria for issuing permits to foreign teachers to be standardised, made stricter: Education Min

[fifthcolumn]

So, back on track.

What does tbis announcement mean?

Will TCT and TCC go forward?

Those with exam sections passed will they be given a lic. - doubt

Will exam for Thai's be abandoned?

Will they introduce a course that in addition to a BA will qualify for Thai and/or foreigners?

Will they continue to plod along witbout change? Two waivers, third if same school. Everyone else is finished.

What of new teachers with degrees and TEFL or CELTA, will they have the 2-4 years and will they need to work on improving profesionally, esp when few if any real courses exit and esp when even fewer are convenient to ft employment.

Will this just open the door and they will start recruiting from Philippines? Thailand must know how weak many of these teachers education degrees are.

Has Thailand crossed the Rubicon, can it possible square the circle? How can it possibly recruit credentialed teachers from abroad for 30k? Once here, how can they posdibly retain them? My suspicion is that cannot pull working teachers from jobs but get newly certified teachers unable to find a job (trouble: they have a mountain of debt). Next would be the burned out teachers, make of that what you will.

Seems to me everyone in Thailand should understand that first requirement is desire to be here. Time in country should be a big asset. Time teaching should be a huge asset. Both are seemingly now ignored.

So what is the future for the liberal arts BA holder with TEFL, 50+? The standard bog teacher.

[SlyAnimal]

I don't know how I missed this article before.

If it goes ahead, I'll have some tough decisions to make about where I want to live/study/work

I have a feeling though, that my countryside school will lose out regardless of which option I choose

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

[simondan]

I really wish people without degrees would stop crying about how they are being put upon and disenfranchaised. A degree has been a standard of entry to most jobs in the West for decades. Why on earth would it not be a requirement in academics?

Like my seventh grade teacher told me about math, if you would put the same effort into doing it as you do avoiding it you'd understand it.

You people are at the end of your rope, working in Thailand, illegally and want the system to make exceptions in what are common standards because you are such a brilliant teacher - but not brilliant or dilligent enough to get a bachelors degree.

I have a degree in an academic subject and studying for TCT tests. Yeah, there is something to being a teacher other than being able to "do the drill". Teaching is perhaps the one job thst everyone thinks they can do naturally.

The best judge if you are a non degreed teacher is multiple years teaching at the same school with wp in bkk. Anything short of that and you are just fooling yourself.

Try the low end schools in Cambodia. You are done.

Stop trying to rationalize to people that have achieved their degrees that you deserve to be included in the club, just because. You don't.

College graduate is a standard for everything these days. What it shows if notbing else is diligence and determination. It also proves as fact you have studied in relation to English:

These are basics of any decent liberal arts BA. The diploma certifies you know this stuff.

Composition, Adv Comp

English

Literature

Humanities

Logic and critical thinking

In my major, tons of reading and writing

Senior paper

Teaching at this juncture will never, ever be reduced to "a job". If snything, it has been going in the opposite direction, for years. You have done nothing to assist yourself in this regard save for whining about how experience trumps all.

The only people that ever and I do mean ever, routinely slag degreesvare the people that don't have one.

Move on. Move out, really.

Good post

OK, I've got a degree and I'm saying it means jack s*#@t in many cases. Even a PhD can be fairly meaningless depending on what was studied and the personal aptitude of the teacher. This is based on interviewing, hiring and observing graduates and post grads over 10 years in a professional field.

And I wouldn't be getting too elitist about having a BA! I did some guest lecturing and testing of BA students in one of the better universities in Australia and was hardly impressed with what I saw. Perhaps you would've been one of the 5% in those classes who could string a legible argument together without paraphrasing from a book? In that case you'd have been part of a very small group! I doubt it's that different elsewhere except in the very best unis.

In my humble opinion, a BA is hardly up to the standard of a BLLb or BSc, which require (again in my opinion and from personal experience of all) a significantly higher pass standard in skills like argument development, written and verbal English expression and reading for understanding. As they used to say, 'oils ain't oils', and in the same vein some degrees simply aren't equivalent in terms of required English standards to others.

So what does this mean? A 'degree' or even a PhD on its own doesn't really say that much. It certainly doesn't fit you out as a competent NES teacher of foreign language students. It's more about your aptitude and ability to enthuse and communicate than how good you were at writing 2000 words on Aristotle or whipping out 4 essays in 3 hours in an exam 5 years ago (or whenever) (or sticking the course through years of hell to get your doctrate).

Many good teachers in this country with extensive experience would be unnecessarily affected by this proposal. I think those of us with formal qualifications should be supporting the good teachers among them, not lounging around in towers of fake ivory feeling superior because we spent 3 or 4 years cloistered in tutorials and lecture rooms while they gained real world experience (instead of just reading about it).

I would certainly not say; as you so eloquently put it, that a degree means jacksh&t, here's why.

A degree will get you a job. Without one you have little chance. Keeping said job will depend on your ability in the classroom.

Thats the reality of it, the long and short of it, the "it is what it is" of it etc.

I have little faith that whining about it will ever make a difference, but it is your right to do so.

Actually, I think you'll find the reality is that you can get a job quite easily without a degree - otherwise we wouldn't have so many posters whining about having to share staff rooms with their intellectual inferiors.

Most of the teachers I know who lack degrees are long standing staff members of private schools. They must be doing something right if they are still there after years? Other posters have made similar observations.

'Thats the reality of it, the long and short of it, the "it is what it is" of it etc.'

Whining is not the sole preserve of the great unwashed it seems (if whining is what was being done - in fact, I was just raising issues with the poor quality arguments being raised - but it is your right to label it whining if you wish to resort to lesser forms of rebuttal).

Sent from my GT-I9300T using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[SlyAnimal]

So, back on track.

What does tbis announcement mean?

Will TCT and TCC go forward?

Those with exam sections passed will they be given a lic. - doubt

Will exam for Thai's be abandoned?

Will they introduce a course that in addition to a BA will qualify for Thai and/or foreigners?

Will they continue to plod along witbout change? Two waivers, third if same school. Everyone else is finished.

What of new teachers with degrees and TEFL or CELTA, will they have the 2-4 years and will they need to work on improving profesionally, esp when few if any real courses exit and esp when even fewer are convenient to ft employment.

Will this just open the door and they will start recruiting from Philippines? Thailand must know how weak many of these teachers education degrees are.

Has Thailand crossed the Rubicon, can it possible square the circle? How can it possibly recruit credentialed teachers from abroad for 30k? Once here, how can they posdibly retain them? My suspicion is that cannot pull working teachers from jobs but get newly certified teachers unable to find a job (trouble: they have a mountain of debt). Next would be the burned out teachers, make of that what you will.

Seems to me everyone in Thailand should understand that first requirement is desire to be here. Time in country should be a big asset. Time teaching should be a huge asset. Both are seemingly now ignored.

So what is the future for the liberal arts BA holder with TEFL, 50+? The standard bog teacher.

My guess (and it's a guess) is that they'll simply get people to study a postgrad diploma in teaching via a Thai university, and that they'll give a provisional teaching permit while they are being studied.

That's what many Thai teachers are currently doing as it's extremely easy and not overly time consuming (as opposed to the TCT tests which are more difficult but even less time consuming)

These usually only require students to attend lectures on the weekends, and can be completed within 1 year. From what one of my Thai friends has said, who is studying this at present, they're pretty easy. I think the cost of tuition is around ฿10,000 (or less) per term for Thai students.

However, as they'd need to teach foreigners in English, they'd probably triple the tuition fees, only offer the English course at a few selected universities and then run the course material through google translate for an accurate translation

But that's just what I guess will happen.

Hopefully by the end of the course, we'll all be real teachers, just like our Thai counterparts once we are equipped with these superior skills, our students will do much better in the international exams, as it's obviously the foreign teachers who are to blame for Thailand's poor level of English.

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

[Kilgore Trout]

Actually, I think you'll find the reality is that you can get a job quite easily without a degree - otherwise we wouldn't have so many posters whining about having to share staff rooms with their intellectual inferiors.

Most of the teachers I know who lack degrees are long standing staff members of private schools. They must be doing something right if they are still there after years? Other posters have made similar observations.

'Thats the reality of it, the long and short of it, the "it is what it is" of it etc.'

Whining is not the sole preserve of the great unwashed it seems (if whining is what was being done - in fact, I was just raising issues with the poor quality arguments being raised - but it is your right to label it whining if you wish to resort to lesser forms of rebuttal).

Sent from my GT-I9300T using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Saying; "the job I want requires a degree. I don't have a degree but feel I should get the job anyway, and I have no interest in doing the coursework required for the degree, but hey, I should have the job."

Sounds like whining to me, but hey, what do I know?

I'm just a guy who came here as an English teacher, worked hard, got my degree and now work in an international school.

[simondan]

Kilgore, you can make a case for anything when you put words into other peoples mouths in just the way that suits you. Surprised your BA didn't teach you that?

I think the issue is that its not entirely settled that you do need a degree to teach English here. People can and do legally teach English without a degree in Thailsnd and most of those do so competently. Some dont do a competent job. But some with a degree teach English poorly/incompetently as well.

[Phatcharanan]

. People can and do legally teach English without a degree in Thailsnd and most of those do so competently. Some dont do a competent job. But some with a degree teach English poorly/incompetently as well.

Jeeeeez.............I must have read similar to the above like a thousand times already.

Another thread going nowhere with the same old repetitive posts.

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[Saradoc1972]

Hi everybody, just thought of starting a new thread when I stumbled upon this one.

I am in the process of having my university degrees (in law) translated to Thai prior to permantly moving to Thailand.

Now I am pondering whether I should have those translations legalized as well while I am stll in Germany as this apparently is a 3-stage process involving some leg-work.

This is all about options I may take or not at a later stage, possibly years in the future after first getting ED visa, i.e. working as an English teacher or possibly as a consultant for a Thai lawyer.

Anyone ever had to provide legalized copies of their degrees to get a work permit as a teacher or some other job?

Also, that sort of degree is bound to be a bit "unusual" for Thai immigration, will I need to prove this was a degree taking at least 3 years? Actually takes around 7y minimum for both degrees.

Thanks in advance.

[Saradoc1972]

There maybe teachers with dubious qualifications, but it far from easy. The degree alone is not generally acceptable, you must have the transcript and those are a lot more difficult to forge. It's not only the MOE that reviews the credentials, but the Teacher's Council and the Ministry of Labor (prior to issuing a work permit).

It is far easier now for someone to work without a degree and fly under the radar than it is to use a dodgy certificate.

Would that transscript be a translation by some translator recognized by courts in the country of origin or a legalized copy, i.e. certified by the country of origin to be valid?

[fifthcolumn]

I think judging by the press release, it is fairly safe to say to teach legally in Thailand you will need a degree.

The only questions are:

Will the TCT exam and TCC remain as paths for non Ed degree holders

Or those without 24units (eight courses) of Education classes

Or those with an MA / will the PG diploma be accepted?

Or those allowed to continue being enrolled in some form of above

Or those allowed to continue as they are persuing lic via TCT exam

There is no debate in that to teach legally in 85% of the cases, as a teacher and not with some other label - you need a degree. If a school loves you so much that they got you a wp and you have no diploma, well great for you and good luck.

Your whining on TV will not change the TCT requirement.

But these folk will always exist outside the loop and on the fringes and are the last remnants. The vast majority upountry and for that, good on you. But, you will never meet scrutiny of the TCT, even if you pass all the exams for which you are not even trying.

Edited January 24, 2014 by fifthcolumn

[Kilgore Trout]

Kilgore, you can make a case for anything when you put words into other peoples mouths in just the way that suits you. Surprised your BA didn't teach you that?

I think the issue is that its not entirely settled that you do need a degree to teach English here. People can and do legally teach English without a degree in Thailsnd and most of those do so competently. Some dont do a competent job. But some with a degree teach English poorly/incompetently as well.

Then I gues there is nothing to worry about, everyone will keep their jobs. Thailand will continue to let people teach without a degree.

I thought that was not the case, but i guess since you said otherwise, it must be true.

[aidenai]

I think judging by the press release, it is fairly safe to say to teach legally in Thailand you will need a degree.

The only questions are:

Will the TCT exam and TCC remain as paths for non Ed degree holders

Or those without 24units (eight courses) of Education classes

Or those with an MA / will the PG diploma be accepted?

Or those allowed to continue being enrolled in some form of above

Or those allowed to continue as they are persuing lic via TCT exam

There is no debate in that to teach legally in 85% of the cases, as a teacher and not with some other label - you need a degree. If a school loves you so much that they got you a wp and you have no diploma, well great for you and good luck.

Your whining on TV will not change the TCT requirement.

But these folk will always exist outside the loop and on the fringes and are the last remnants. The vast majority upountry and for that, good on you. But, you will never meet scrutiny of the TCT, even if you pass all the exams for which you are not even trying.

From the website of The Ministry of Education.

-Be 20 years of age and above

- Have degrees, certificates, or the equivalent in the field of Education, or...

- Have other qualifications that have been accredited by the Teachers' Council, or...

- Graduate degrees in other fields, with a professional teaching license from abroad, or...

- Have certificate/diploma qualifications in the field of Education with more than one year studying, or...

- Have graduate degrees in other fields, and passed a professional teaching exam from an Educational Institute accredited by the Teachers' Council, or...

- Graduated from a higher education institute that has been accredited either by the governmental sector or professional organizations that has the authority according to the laws of that country. However, they must have more than 24 credits and have more than one year’s experience teaching in education institutes.

[seldone]

I believe this is the higher ED diploma they are referring to.

http://www.iis.ru.ac.th/English_Program/Teacher_Qualification/diploma_in_teaching_profession.htm

[sirchai]

Hi everybody, just thought of starting a new thread when I stumbled upon this one.

I am in the process of having my university degrees (in law) translated to Thai prior to permantly moving to Thailand.

Now I am pondering whether I should have those translations legalized as well while I am stll in Germany as this apparently is a 3-stage process involving some leg-work.

This is all about options I may take or not at a later stage, possibly years in the future after first getting ED visa, i.e. working as an English teacher or possibly as a consultant for a Thai lawyer.

Anyone ever had to provide legalized copies of their degrees to get a work permit as a teacher or some other job?

Also, that sort of degree is bound to be a bit "unusual" for Thai immigration, will I need to prove this was a degree taking at least 3 years? Actually takes around 7y minimum for both degrees.

Thanks in advance.

You’ll have to get your degree and transcripts translated into Thai, which is pretty easy to understand, as they don’t have people who can read German/French/Russian, etc…..

I had my German degree, plus transcripts in social pedagogy translated into Thai, then certified by the German embassy in Bangkok.

I’d get them certified in Germany, if I were you. Let the university you’d attended write a document in English to show that your degree is a real one, with an address, phone number, etc…

An ED visa doesn't allow you to teach English, or do any other work, as it’s for educational purposes.

It would make more sense to find a teaching position, then leaving the country with all needed documents to Laos to apply for a Non-B visa.

Then you’ll have 90 days to apply for a provisional teachers’ license that gives you a two year teaching allowance.

The TCT in Bangkok will issue the provisional TL within two weeks, if all documents are submitted.

You can also go there in person and it might be possible to pick the TL up on same day. Good luck.-

[Saradoc1972]

Hi everybody, just thought of starting a new thread when I stumbled upon this one.

I am in the process of having my university degrees (in law) translated to Thai prior to permantly moving to Thailand.

Now I am pondering whether I should have those translations legalized as well while I am stll in Germany as this apparently is a 3-stage process involving some leg-work.

This is all about options I may take or not at a later stage, possibly years in the future after first getting ED visa, i.e. working as an English teacher or possibly as a consultant for a Thai lawyer.

Anyone ever had to provide legalized copies of their degrees to get a work permit as a teacher or some other job?

Also, that sort of degree is bound to be a bit "unusual" for Thai immigration, will I need to prove this was a degree taking at least 3 years? Actually takes around 7y minimum for both degrees.

Thanks in advance.

You’ll have to get your degree and transcripts translated into Thai, which is pretty easy to understand, as they don’t have people who can read German/French/Russian, etc…..

I had my German degree, plus transcripts in social pedagogy translated into Thai, then certified by the German embassy in Bangkok.

I’d get them certified in Germany, if I were you. Let the university you’d attended write a document in English to show that your degree is a real one, with an address, phone number, etc…

An ED visa doesn't allow you to teach English, or do any other work, as it’s for educational purposes.

It would make more sense to find a teaching position, then leaving the country with all needed documents to Laos to apply for a Non-B visa.

Then you’ll have 90 days to apply for a provisional teachers’ license that gives you a two year teaching allowance.

The TCT in Bangkok will issue the provisional TL within two weeks, if all documents are submitted.

You can also go there in person and it might be possible to pick the TL up on same day. Good luck.-

Cheers, that's exactly the answer I've been looking for.

I've had both my degrees translated into Thai by some heavily court-certified guys, but they weren't exactly forthcoming to my questions as to legalization.

The ED-Visa is only for the first two years or so, I will need some orientation over there and pick up some of the language anyway. The distinctions and limitations of the different Visa-types come natural to me, so to speak.

As this is years in the future I'll look into the process of getting a WP and license then, it's likely to change till then. Will probably still involve hopping borders for changing Visa-types.

A specific practical question here:

How did you go about having your degree certified or legalized? Got an English letter from your uni, you wrote.

(I'd have to go to the Landesjustizprüfungsamt and Justizministerium in Düsseldorf, respectively, as my degrees are both state-examinations)

You then flash them in the German Embassy to Bangkok, no Thai Embassy involved, no writing back and forth between any of them?

Is that actually a legalization process or just what the Thai need (which would suffice me).

Have you been asked to do this? Costs?

Edited March 11, 2014 by Saradoc1972