Criteria for issuing permits to foreign teachers to be standardised, made stricter: Education Min

[Colabamumbai]

Before they do all of this would they educate the schools about the paperwork requirements for visa and work permits, waivers and licenses.

[gerryBScot]

These proposals will result in fewer NES teachers working in Thailand. This is what school management bodies actually want. I imagine they have lobbied the ministry for this - what they get are proposals dressed up in the language of improving overall quality but which effectively close the door on non-education graduate NES teachers. This will enable significant cost cutting. It has nothing to do with quality of course. The reason why the standard of English is so low in this country is because many school managements are not actually committed to ENglish language learning or anything that equates to an educational/learning experience for student - they use English and increasingly Chinese simply for marketing and to get students enrolled. These changes will enable schools to justify to parents the employment of cheaper options like more Filipino and Indian qualified nationals. Hell I've even heard of some schools producing fancy DVDs in order to showcase the teaching abilities of non-NES teachers.

I'm fine with this as I'm not in anyway opposed to non-NES being deployed as English teachers, and know many to be outstanding educators.

But i think the real losers as always will be the children and the parents. Perfectly reasonable for parents to want to send their children to schools where they can become proficient in languages and indeed sports and the arts. Only problem is, err, they don't learn English or whatever. These proposed changes won't mean kids get a better educational experience or learning outcomes - they'll mean more profits for the schools and a delay in Thai parents being able to get their kids a decent education for another generation.

[Jman73]

The sad thing is the foreign teachers are not the education problem in Thailand. The system here has a fundamental cultural flaw that cannot be fixed. Thai culture is incapable of seeing themselves as the problem and unfortunately this path they are looking to go down is a "saving face" issue. Lets face it, when you are a teacher here and you do a good job then you see a Thai grammar teacher reinforcing bad English you have just corrected you cant help but feel frustrated. When you have a system that allows Thais who cannot get 700+ on TOEIC teach grammar and who are not even conversational in English to teach English then your fighting a loosing battle. There are far to many schools here with unqualified Thai teachers with basket weaving BA degrees. Unfortunately Thais can't come to the realization they need to fix THEIR system. We native English speakers are only here to provide good examples of spoken English for them to copy.

Edited January 15, 2014 by Jman73

[bangon04]

I don't know a lot of people who come to Thailand for work. I know a lot of people who come to Thailand, decide they want to stay and then look for work. For many, teaching English is the only work they can do.

There will have to be a huge increase in salaries to get qualified teachers.

If I am interpreting this correctly, then you will likely need a Teacher's License or Permit from your home country before you can get one in Thailand? That will affect a lot of Filipino teachers.

yep..more expense..another piece of paper for Filipinos to pay for...

"The applicants must also pass training set by the Teachers' Council of Thailand including Thai language and culture, related laws to teaching, and Thai education philosophy, in order to understand the foundation of Thai society, she said."

Isn't this the bit that will put off the real teachers?

Edited January 15, 2014 by bangon04

[inutil]

Epik have been doing this for years.

Net result is always this:

As school placements go down or get cut back, private language schools see more students.

Truth be told i dont really understand the hoops you guys need to jump through because i NEVER ONCE had to jump through those hoops. Not by choice. But just by the incredibly, and dare i say, deeply inefficient and ridiculous pace of school/employer relations. I wanted nothing more than to stop filling up the pages of my brand new passport with cambodian visas and dealing with the cambodian mafia at cham yeam every 15 days, but it wasnt meant to be. My colleague who had been working there for 6 montsh longer than me was also sans teaching permit despite also being able to supply any and all docs his side as and when required.

Which brings me to the main point: these regulations mean NOTHING until schools start getting put under pressure to provide teachers with a valid work visa. If you ever find that someone is teaching under the counter in japan its rather shocking and a bit of a big deal. That dude is an OUTLAW!!! (in the best jesse james sense of things). If you find it in thailand, its probably just someone waiting for people to pull their fingers out of their butts and get stuff actually processed. And well... why bother paying all those fees and waste all that time when you dont even need it anyway? I mean its not like immigration are popping around unannounced). Until schools start getting dragged over the coals (and not in a photo op here and there to show that the reforms are taking place on a wet wednesday in the media war) for not processing visas, or employing teachers without a valid work visa, then its all just smoke and mirrors. And im fine with that i suppose. Next time ill be sure to remember to get the double entry visa in time before arrival just in case.

Anyways, can someone explicate whats going on here? If its QTS or the like then this leaves those teachers who passed the Thai teaching proficiency exam (im sure theres a few out there), and the occasional wanderlust teacher who wants to make a real difference out there and/or cant get a gig back home (in the latter case, they should probably research a bit more - moneys to be made for QTS all over the planet and in the former case... thailand? seriously?)

So thats about 7% coverage then... whats next? Well, whats next is the affluent paying for private lessons with a native speaker because their kid isnt getting it at school and others having to pay for it just to keep up. So it goes. Or so it doesnt. Im not mystic mog. Good luck though thailand. I have no idea what your plan is, but im sure youve thought long and hard about the rather obvious unintended consequences. So you dont need me banging on and on about knee jerk dumb governmental policies doing the exact opposite of what they set out to achieve.

[BlackJack]

Thai education and philosophies are alive and well and on the streets of Thailand now

[simondan]

What is 'Thai educational philosophy' anyway?

No kid can fail (thats a proven method for producing rocket scientists and physicists!).

Teachers publicly hectoring or physically/verbally assaulting students who have learning difficulties (those difficulties never having been addressed due to aforementioned no-fail policy) (so much for treating kids as your own - this seems to only happen to a favoured few).

The role of parents in education of their kids down played.

Have local teachers teach subjects way above their own competancy level.

Liberal use of head whacking and the ruler to enforce discipline and punish the 'dumb' kids.

Thai teachers with no qualifications at all beside high school.

All under pinned by the complete inability to address systemic shortfalls and individual children's learning problems due to the need to 'save face' and a cultural propensity to accept the status quo and respect authority even when it is clearly not worthy of respect.

It seems that the real issues here are way deeper than a lack of formal teaching qualifications for NES teachers and a relatively few bar-girl sponsoring bad-apples.

What about developing an educational system that is actually worthy of being called a 'philosophy'?

That is result-focused rather than self-serving and crippled by out dated and counter productive cultural norms.

But that would require some genuine self analysis, will power and leadership - its much easier to just blame the perceived lack of training standards among foreigners (the root of most problems in Thailand after all).

Or am I just being another condescending farang?

Sent from my GT-I9300T using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[jambco984]

Of course there needs to be regulations to make sure that schools don't hire people who have no skills and no desire to gain skills. But skills aren't measured only by pieces of paper. Sorry to be self-centred, but again I bring up my own case:

I came to Thailand many years ago and found that I needed a teaching job to be able to stay. So I went and got one - easy, back then - no specific requirements needed. And I wasn't a very good teacher, either. But I have a philosophy of always doing something to the best of my ability, so I made a point of learning from my mistakes, my colleagues, and from some reading. Now I think I do a pretty good job - and most of my colleagues, bosses, students and their parents agree. But I don't have a degree, and so I have been told by the labour office that I won't be able to renew my work permit again.

This means that my 11 years of experience and my reputation count for nothing.

There needs to be some way of counting other forms of experience besides qualifications. I know several people like me that have left the country... and I'm to follow suit shortly.

Same boat as you but only 4 years.

I'm pig sick :-(

[masuk]

How can Thailand justify recruiting qualified native speaking teachers with a degree AND educational training (3 to 4 years) and have taught for at least 12 months, on a salary of AU$1000 per month (30,000 baht)?

Current salaries for primary school teachers in Australia are AU$36,000 per annum to AU$76,418 - median figure is AU$53,443.

So Thailand is hoping to recruits native speaker teachers for 30% of a (new) Australian teacher's salary.

To work in Thailand for $1000 a month is almost a volunteer level salary, and further studies are required in Thai language and culture, very large classes and accommodation?? Anyone's guess.

It's little wonder the standard of English is so bad, as the Thai English teachers have nowhere near the fluency of a Filipino teacher, let alone a teacher from the five 'approved' nations.

So it boils down to being a labour of love, or you really want to settle here.

But persevere. When you qualify for the Australian age pension, you will get a 50% income increase.

[nottocus]

Of course there needs to be regulations to make sure that schools don't hire people who have no skills and no desire to gain skills. But skills aren't measured only by pieces of paper. Sorry to be self-centred, but again I bring up my own case:

I came to Thailand many years ago and found that I needed a teaching job to be able to stay. So I went and got one - easy, back then - no specific requirements needed. And I wasn't a very good teacher, either. But I have a philosophy of always doing something to the best of my ability, so I made a point of learning from my mistakes, my colleagues, and from some reading. Now I think I do a pretty good job - and most of my colleagues, bosses, students and their parents agree. But I don't have a degree, and so I have been told by the labour office that I won't be able to renew my work permit again.

This means that my 11 years of experience and my reputation count for nothing.

There needs to be some way of counting other forms of experience besides qualifications. I know several people like me that have left the country... and I'm to follow suit shortly.

You could have spent the past 11 years trying to get some kind of qualification though.

[fabianfred]

Same stupidity. They want to improve the English because of ASEAN and they are afraid to be last in the ten Countries at English. So they blame the poor English ability on poor teachers.

Don't they realise it takes two to tango. The teacher's duty is to teach...the student's duty is to learn.

The reason Thais are so poor at English is because the education system is bad....but of course they will never blame themselves, its far easier to blame someone else.

The Thai students in many schools get English once a week..... in Burma they get it every day.

The only Thai people I know with good English...taught themselves. They wanted to learn, so sought the information and spent their own time studying and took every opportunity to practice what they were learning...without being afraid to make mistakes.

Once a student wants to learn, half the battle is over.

A good teacher has the ability to make a subject interesting to the students and so encourage them that they want to learn...otherwise its all a waste of time and effort.

Even illegal, young, part-time, backpackers, who have no teaching experience can be useful...because a few of them might have had good teachers, and they remember how they were taught, and are able to make learning fun...that is why teaching is a vocation....not a profession ....this ability to create the desire to learn in students is not something which can be learned out of a book.

Edited January 15, 2014 by fabianfred

[Somtamnication]

The applicants must also pass training set by the Teachers' Council of Thailand including Thai language and culture, related laws to teaching, and Thai education philosophy, in order to understand the foundation of Thai society, she said.

I already know about Thai education philosophy: bamboo sticks, rote and tunnel vision.

Next!!!

[fabianfred]

They don't need to teach the Thai way...that doesn't work!

The trouble is with the thai teachers and their 'face' who don;t like being shown up!

[oops]

Good, we need to get rid of the trash teachers who come here for a few months or want to stay to take care of their bar girl friend. I am happy to see this. But they also need to raise the salary of those who met the qualifications maybe even double it.

I think once they figure out that putting more regulations on teachers will only have an adverse effect to an already defunct system. Most importantly and a fact, they will pay more for teachers eventually. Any teacher with a proper ED degree or even a degree with a Tesol can go to work at a private school and make more then at a public school and be treated almost like a human or at least have a proper desk to sit at and a proper bathroom to release their anxiety for the day.

In fact right now they are hiring tons of Nigerians, Cameroonians as well as other people from 3rd world countries, like the Filipinos who speak English albeit very poorly, some even extremely poor. While they can speak, read, and write English, it is the way they assemble their sentences that makes me feel like I have a PHD in linguistics.

Most teachers work without permits now because of the cost as well as the Tesol requirements, and the stupid Thai cultural class requirements that burden the schools and teachers. A large portion of public schools won't even pay you for your trip to renew your visa or the day or days your gone to attain one, nor will the pay for the Tesol, or Thai cultural class. Now as another poster said, any more rules and regulations will only make them hire more Africans and Filipinos at a discounted salary.

While I am not a teacher, I work around hundreds of them and the schools. The people that broker the Africans are Pakistanis also don't speak good English some advertise on Craigs list under education. All the public schools seem to be using Africans and Filipinos over westerners because they can pay them less and they will follow the rhetoric and idiocy that some of these public schools produce. So before you get rid of the trash teachers, you must get rid of the trash that hires them to save a few baht.

Edited January 16, 2014 by oops

[oops]

Same stupidity. They want to improve the English because of ASEAN and they are afraid to be last in the ten Countries at English. So they blame the poor English ability on poor teachers.

Don't they realise it takes two to tango. The teacher's duty is to teach...the student's duty is to learn.

The reason Thais are so poor at English is because the education system is bad....but of course they will never blame themselves, its far easier to blame someone else.

The Thai students in many schools get English once a week..... in Burma they get it every day.

The only Thai people I know with good English...taught themselves. They wanted to learn, so sought the information and spent their own time studying and took every opportunity to practice what they were learning...without being afraid to make mistakes.

Once a student wants to learn, half the battle is over.

A good teacher has the ability to make a subject interesting to the students and so encourage them that they want to learn...otherwise its all a waste of time and effort.

Even illegal, young, part-time, backpackers, who have no teaching experience can be useful...because a few of them might have had good teachers, and they remember how they were taught, and are able to make learning fun...that is why teaching is a vocation....not a profession ....this ability to create the desire to learn in students is not something which can be learned out of a book.

Correct, you don't need a teaching degree to be a good instructor and basically they children are learning the grammar and vocabulary from the Thai teachers so they only need people in which the children can interact with. The other thing I agree with is the fact that they like to blame the English teachers for the children not learning English, yet they treat them with disrespect and exclude them from creating a curriculum that would be conducive to a good learning environment.

[thequietman]

Same stupidity. They want to improve the English because of ASEAN and they are afraid to be last in the ten Countries at English. So they blame the poor English ability on poor teachers.

Don't they realise it takes two to tango. The teacher's duty is to teach...the student's duty is to learn.

The reason Thais are so poor at English is because the education system is bad....but of course they will never blame themselves, its far easier to blame someone else.

The Thai students in many schools get English once a week..... in Burma they get it every day.

The only Thai people I know with good English...taught themselves. They wanted to learn, so sought the information and spent their own time studying and took every opportunity to practice what they were learning...without being afraid to make mistakes.

Once a student wants to learn, half the battle is over.

A good teacher has the ability to make a subject interesting to the students and so encourage them that they want to learn...otherwise its all a waste of time and effort.

Even illegal, young, part-time, backpackers, who have no teaching experience can be useful...because a few of them might have had good teachers, and they remember how they were taught, and are able to make learning fun...that is why teaching is a vocation....not a profession ....this ability to create the desire to learn in students is not something which can be learned out of a book.

Correct, you don't need a teaching degree to be a good instructor and basically they children are learning the grammar and vocabulary from the Thai teachers so they only need people in which the children can interact with. The other thing I agree with is the fact that they like to blame the English teachers for the children not learning English, yet they treat them with disrespect and exclude them from creating a curriculum that would be conducive to a good learning environment.

I previously worked in a school where the students won first place in English speaking competitions for every year for at least 5 years. The foreign teachers wrote their speeches and had to change them from what the Thai teachers suggested. They spent hours with the students making sure the pronunciation was correct as was gestures and tone. Every time the kids won there was a photo opportunity for the local rag with all Thai heads of department and directors in the picture.......... but none of the foreign teachers. They were not mentioned or thanked.

Then the school had a disastrous competition. No winners......none..... only 2nd's and 3rd's and sometimes no placing at all. Disaster ! Then the foreign teachers got a mention at last. The reason for the drop in the students performance was............ wait for it............ because of the foreigners. .

[Scott]

This thread is about obtaining the proper credentials to teach in Thailand. Stay on topic.

People from countries where English isn't the first language are required to take an English language proficiency exam (such as the TOEIC). Most teachers do not work without a work permit.

Please stick to the topic.

[simondan]

Of course there needs to be regulations to make sure that schools don't hire people who have no skills and no desire to gain skills. But skills aren't measured only by pieces of paper. Sorry to be self-centred, but again I bring up my own case:

I came to Thailand many years ago and found that I needed a teaching job to be able to stay. So I went and got one - easy, back then - no specific requirements needed. And I wasn't a very good teacher, either. But I have a philosophy of always doing something to the best of my ability, so I made a point of learning from my mistakes, my colleagues, and from some reading. Now I think I do a pretty good job - and most of my colleagues, bosses, students and their parents agree. But I don't have a degree, and so I have been told by the labour office that I won't be able to renew my work permit again.

This means that my 11 years of experience and my reputation count for nothing.

There needs to be some way of counting other forms of experience besides qualifications. I know several people like me that have left the country... and I'm to follow suit shortly.

You could have spent the past 11 years trying to get some kind of qualification though.

Nottocus - thats a very easy to make, obvious statement but it doesnt mean its wise. I'd take 11 years experience over an ornate piece of paper anytime. You only start really learning your stuff when you get into the real world. Preferring formal studies over extensive experience without looking further into the individuals ability is the easy way out and its hardly scientific or sensible in the current supply and demand situation Thailand faces in regards to teaching.

Sent from my GT-I9300T using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[heybruce]

Higher official standards and the same low pay means nothing will change--schools will bend or break the rules to get anyone remotely capable and willing to work for low pay.

A Thai friend of mine who teaches at a local high school keeps asking me to apply for a long empty position teaching physics for her schools English program. I'm well past the age limit and have no teaching credentials, only degrees in math and engineering, but she says that will not be a problem. I keep politely declining, I'm afraid I'll offend her if I explain that the job involves too much work for too little pay, 28000 baht a month.

If a government school, in this case Chiang Mai's best, is willing to waive current requirements to fill a difficult to fill position, what are the chances the new tougher standards will be applied at this or any other schools?

[Scott]

The difficulty is that when they tighten up the regulations, many people cannot get the visa necessary to get the work permit. This means visa runs. These are not as easy or as straightforward as they were some years ago.

[fifthcolumn]

I really wish people without degrees would stop crying about how they are being put upon and disenfranchaised. A degree has been a standard of entry to most jobs in the West for decades. Why on earth would it not be a requirement in academics?

Like my seventh grade teacher told me about math, if you would put the same effort into doing it as you do avoiding it you'd understand it.

You people are at the end of your rope, working in Thailand, illegally and want the system to make exceptions in what are common standards because you are such a brilliant teacher - but not brilliant or dilligent enough to get a bachelors degree.

I have a degree in an academic subject and studying for TCT tests. Yeah, there is something to being a teacher other than being able to "do the drill". Teaching is perhaps the one job that everyone thinks they can do naturally.

The best judge if you are a non degreed teacher is multiple years teaching at the same school with wp in bkk. Anything short of that and you are just fooling yourself.

Try the low end schools in Cambodia. You are done.

Stop trying to rationalize to people that have achieved their degrees that you deserve to be included in the club, just because. You don't.

College graduate is a standard for everything these days. What it shows if nothing else is diligence and determination. It also proves as fact you have studied in relation to English:

These are basics of any decent liberal arts BA. The diploma certifies you know this stuff.

Composition, Adv Comp

English

Literature

Humanities

Logic and critical thinking

In my major, tons of reading and writing

Senior paper

Teaching at this juncture will never, ever be reduced to "a job". If anything, it has been going in the opposite direction, for years. You have done nothing to assist yourself in this regard save for whining about how experience trumps all.

The only people that ever and I do mean ever, routinely slag degrees are the people that don't have one.

Move on. Move out, really.

Edited January 17, 2014 by Scott

[nottocus]

Of course there needs to be regulations to make sure that schools don't hire people who have no skills and no desire to gain skills. But skills aren't measured only by pieces of paper. Sorry to be self-centred, but again I bring up my own case:

I came to Thailand many years ago and found that I needed a teaching job to be able to stay. So I went and got one - easy, back then - no specific requirements needed. And I wasn't a very good teacher, either. But I have a philosophy of always doing something to the best of my ability, so I made a point of learning from my mistakes, my colleagues, and from some reading. Now I think I do a pretty good job - and most of my colleagues, bosses, students and their parents agree. But I don't have a degree, and so I have been told by the labour office that I won't be able to renew my work permit again.

This means that my 11 years of experience and my reputation count for nothing.

There needs to be some way of counting other forms of experience besides qualifications. I know several people like me that have left the country... and I'm to follow suit shortly.

You could have spent the past 11 years trying to get some kind of qualification though.

Nottocus - thats a very easy to make, obvious statement but it doesnt mean its wise. I'd take 11 years experience over an ornate piece of paper anytime. You only start really learning your stuff when you get into the real world. Preferring formal studies over extensive experience without looking further into the individuals ability is the easy way out and its hardly scientific or sensible in the current supply and demand situation Thailand faces in regards to teaching.

Sent from my GT-I9300T using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

It's called developing professionally. The guy has no reason to whine if he has done nothing to improve himself.

It has been known for a long time that a degree has become more and more essential to satisfy the powers that be.

You talk of experience over a piece of paper and learning stuff in the real world. It is possible to have both experience and a piece of paper.

Edited January 17, 2014 by nottocus

[nottocus]

I really wish people without degrees would stop crying about how they are being put upon and disenfranchaised. A degree has been a standard of entry to most jobs in the West for decades. Why on earth would it not be a requirement in academics?

Like my seventh grade teacher told me about math, if you would put the same effort into doing it as you do avoiding it you'd understand it.

You people are at the end of your rope, working in Thailand, illegally and want the system to make exceptions in what are common standards because you are such a brilliant teacher - but not brilliant or dilligent enough to get a bachelors degree.

I have a degree in an academic subject and studying for TCT tests. Yeah, there is something to being a teacher other than being able to "do the drill". Teaching is perhaps the one job thst everyone thinks they can do naturally.

The best judge if you are a non degreed teacher is multiple years teaching at the same school with wp in bkk. Anything short of that and you are just fooling yourself.

Try the low end schools in Cambodia. You are done.

Stop trying to rationalize to people that have achieved their degrees that you deserve to be included in the club, just because. You don't.

College graduate is a standard for everything these days. What it shows if notbing else is diligence and determination. It also proves as fact you have studied in relation to English:

These are basics of any decent liberal arts BA. The diploma certifies you know this stuff.

Composition, Adv Comp

English

Literature

Humanities

Logic and critical thinking

In my major, tons of reading and writing

Senior paper

Teaching at this juncture will never, ever be reduced to "a job". If snything, it has been going in the opposite direction, for years. You have done nothing to assist yourself in this regard save for whining about how experience trumps all.

The only people that ever and I do mean ever, routinely slag degreesvare the people that don't have one.

Move on. Move out, really.

Good post

[simondan]

I really wish people without degrees would stop crying about how they are being put upon and disenfranchaised. A degree has been a standard of entry to most jobs in the West for decades. Why on earth would it not be a requirement in academics?

Like my seventh grade teacher told me about math, if you would put the same effort into doing it as you do avoiding it you'd understand it.

You people are at the end of your rope, working in Thailand, illegally and want the system to make exceptions in what are common standards because you are such a brilliant teacher - but not brilliant or dilligent enough to get a bachelors degree.

I have a degree in an academic subject and studying for TCT tests. Yeah, there is something to being a teacher other than being able to "do the drill". Teaching is perhaps the one job thst everyone thinks they can do naturally.

The best judge if you are a non degreed teacher is multiple years teaching at the same school with wp in bkk. Anything short of that and you are just fooling yourself.

Try the low end schools in Cambodia. You are done.

Stop trying to rationalize to people that have achieved their degrees that you deserve to be included in the club, just because. You don't.

College graduate is a standard for everything these days. What it shows if notbing else is diligence and determination. It also proves as fact you have studied in relation to English:

These are basics of any decent liberal arts BA. The diploma certifies you know this stuff.

Composition, Adv Comp

English

Literature

Humanities

Logic and critical thinking

In my major, tons of reading and writing

Senior paper

Teaching at this juncture will never, ever be reduced to "a job". If snything, it has been going in the opposite direction, for years. You have done nothing to assist yourself in this regard save for whining about how experience trumps all.

The only people that ever and I do mean ever, routinely slag degreesvare the people that don't have one.

Move on. Move out, really.

Good post

OK, I've got a degree and I'm saying it means jack s*#@t in many cases. Even a PhD can be fairly meaningless depending on what was studied and the personal aptitude of the teacher. This is based on interviewing, hiring and observing graduates and post grads over 10 years in a professional field.

And I wouldn't be getting too elitist about having a BA! I did some guest lecturing and testing of BA students in one of the better universities in Australia and was hardly impressed with what I saw. Perhaps you would've been one of the 5% in those classes who could string a legible argument together without paraphrasing from a book? In that case you'd have been part of a very small group! I doubt it's that different elsewhere except in the very best unis.

In my humble opinion, a BA is hardly up to the standard of a BLLb or BSc, which require (again in my opinion and from personal experience of all) a significantly higher pass standard in skills like argument development, written and verbal English expression and reading for understanding. As they used to say, 'oils ain't oils', and in the same vein some degrees simply aren't equivalent in terms of required English standards to others.

So what does this mean? A 'degree' or even a PhD on its own doesn't really say that much. It certainly doesn't fit you out as a competent NES teacher of foreign language students. It's more about your aptitude and ability to enthuse and communicate than how good you were at writing 2000 words on Aristotle or whipping out 4 essays in 3 hours in an exam 5 years ago (or whenever) (or sticking the course through years of hell to get your doctrate).

Many good teachers in this country with extensive experience would be unnecessarily affected by this proposal. I think those of us with formal qualifications should be supporting the good teachers among them, not lounging around in towers of fake ivory feeling superior because we spent 3 or 4 years cloistered in tutorials and lecture rooms while they gained real world experience (instead of just reading about it).

[Yooyung]

I really wish people without degrees would stop crying about how they are being put upon and disenfranchaised. A degree has been a standard of entry to most jobs in the West for decades. Why on earth would it not be a requirement in academics?

Like my seventh grade teacher told me about math, if you would put the same effort into doing it as you do avoiding it you'd understand it.

You people are at the end of your rope, working in Thailand, illegally and want the system to make exceptions in what are common standards because you are such a brilliant teacher - but not brilliant or dilligent enough to get a bachelors degree.

I have a degree in an academic subject and studying for TCT tests. Yeah, there is something to being a teacher other than being able to "do the drill". Teaching is perhaps the one job thst everyone thinks they can do naturally.

The best judge if you are a non degreed teacher is multiple years teaching at the same school with wp in bkk. Anything short of that and you are just fooling yourself.

Try the low end schools in Cambodia. You are done.

Stop trying to rationalize to people that have achieved their degrees that you deserve to be included in the club, just because. You don't.

College graduate is a standard for everything these days. What it shows if notbing else is diligence and determination. It also proves as fact you have studied in relation to English:

These are basics of any decent liberal arts BA. The diploma certifies you know this stuff.

Composition, Adv Comp

English

Literature

Humanities

Logic and critical thinking

In my major, tons of reading and writing

Senior paper

Teaching at this juncture will never, ever be reduced to "a job". If snything, it has been going in the opposite direction, for years. You have done nothing to assist yourself in this regard save for whining about how experience trumps all.

The only people that ever and I do mean ever, routinely slag degreesvare the people that don't have one.

Move on. Move out, really.

Good post

OK, I've got a degree and I'm saying it means jack s*#@t in many cases. Even a PhD can be fairly meaningless depending on what was studied and the personal aptitude of the teacher. This is based on interviewing, hiring and observing graduates and post grads over 10 years in a professional field.

And I wouldn't be getting too elitist about having a BA! I did some guest lecturing and testing of BA students in one of the better universities in Australia and was hardly impressed with what I saw. Perhaps you would've been one of the 5% in those classes who could string a legible argument together without paraphrasing from a book? In that case you'd have been part of a very small group! I doubt it's that different elsewhere except in the very best unis.

In my humble opinion, a BA is hardly up to the standard of a BLLb or BSc, which require (again in my opinion and from personal experience of all) a significantly higher pass standard in skills like argument development, written and verbal English expression and reading for understanding. As they used to say, 'oils ain't oils', and in the same vein some degrees simply aren't equivalent in terms of required English standards to others.

So what does this mean? A 'degree' or even a PhD on its own doesn't really say that much. It certainly doesn't fit you out as a competent NES teacher of foreign language students. It's more about your aptitude and ability to enthuse and communicate than how good you were at writing 2000 words on Aristotle or whipping out 4 essays in 3 hours in an exam 5 years ago (or whenever) (or sticking the course through years of hell to get your doctrate).

Many good teachers in this country with extensive experience would be unnecessarily affected by this proposal. I think those of us with formal qualifications should be supporting the good teachers among them, not lounging around in towers of fake ivory feeling superior because we spent 3 or 4 years cloistered in tutorials and lecture rooms while they gained real world experience (instead of just reading about it).

I dont think anyone would disagree with you, but as a previous poster mentioned many of us have a degree AND real world teaching experience in Thailand. No, a degree is no guarantee that person will be able to handle the realities of a Thai classroom. I had to get a degree after teaching here for a few years and I am glad that I did. I think people just get tired of those without degrees teaching in Thailand belittling those with. The attitude is almost " well what did your fancy degree teach you that I couldnt find out on google?". To complete tertiary study shows a certain level of competence....ok maybe there are others higher up in the ivory tower, but its a start. At the end of the day people that have taken the time to get a degree AND also have experience here are better off than those that didnt. That is the reality of the situation. A teacher should have a reasonable level of education AND experience. A BA and a TEFL cert is a good starting point. If they want even more........then they cant expect to be paying the wages that they do.

[a99az]

They should start by standardizing teaching in Thai schools first.

[LecheHombre]

I live in a relatively off-the-beaten-path province up North. I've been teaching in my current school for 4 years. Three years at a different school in the same town before that. Seven years total of teaching in Thailand, which is a lot less than some.

I have a Bachelor's degree in engineering, so I am more "qualified" than many/most of my co-workers in govt. schools during the past 7 years (many had no degree). In those seven years, the two schools I have worked in have gone through somewhere in the range of 70 teachers combined. One employs about 7-9 foreign teachers at a time, and 3-4 at the other. Run those numbers and you may notice that retention rates are rather pathetic, but that isn't the main point that I'm going for here.

What I really want to highlight is that I have personally and directly known more than 70 people employed as NES teachers. How many would be qualified to teach under the letter of this law? To the best of my recollection, the answer is exactly 2 -- one from each of the two schools I have worked at. Out of those 70+, only 2 had a degree in education plus a teaching certificate (one from the US, one from England). Two more had degrees in education, but not from NES countries.

Now, let's contemplate the quality of those two, in terms of how well they managed in a Thai government school setting:

One was a serious, fully qualified teacher -- and exactly the sort of quality that any school in Thailand should be extremely happy to have. However, the system is/was such a shambles that it drove him nuts. No support, no materials, no accountability ... the local system doesn't deserve the quality that he brought to the table. He quit after less than a year. In a private international school in Bangkok, maybe he could be comfortable actually teaching.

The second one was a funny case. He was the golden boy -- the most qualified teacher the school had ever hired. Massively high hopes and expectations on him. ...And, he was a complete bum. In spite actually having a teaching certificate, he was terrible as an actual in-classroom teacher. Even worse than that (from the school admin perspective at least), he burned through his full allotment of "sick" (read: drunk) days during the first semester, then through his contractually-required "vacation" days (you know, the ones that aren't actually expected to take even though they are in your contract) in about the first month of the second term. Golden boy became the only person that the school has ever "let go" (read: kicked to the curb) before the actual end date of his contract (not counting people who quit or did a runner of their own accord). Even truly terrible teachers usually get to ride out their one year contracts as long as they simply show up, so that ought to give you some indication as to just how big of an epic fail this guy was.

Who have been the best teachers out of those 70+? As a general rule, if someone managed to stay employed at any one school for more than 2 years, they were probably pretty good. If I was in charge of hiring for a school here, a degree or teaching certificate would be WAY down my priority list. Experience is much more important. Experience in a Thai school trumps experience elsewhere, because if someone is used to things actually working properly as in a western school they are probably going to be deeply disillusioned and unhappy with the "system" here. If someone has managed to stay employed in a Thai school for 2-3 years, they pretty clearly know the score and know how to get along with the Thai teachers and administrators. They know that showing up is 90% of the job. They know not to expect support, co-teachers, books or other resources of any kind. In other words, they are the people who are truly the most qualified to teach in a Thai government school. And they are the people who will be most negatively effected by this.

Maybe this stuff could fly in Bangkok, although I doubt it. Upcountry and in more rural areas like where I am, this would/will be a train wreck. Working illegally would become much more common, AND most schools won't be able to fill half of their usual number of foreign teacher spots. Actually, half is almost laughably generous. From my experience, they will be doing good if 2 out of 70 spots get filled. And of those two, one will jump ship partway through a single year, and one will be such a complete loser that they manage to get fired even in that kind of market.

Next year should be fun to watch. Guess I'll get my popcorn ready.

[sirchai]

The applicants must also pass training set by the Teachers' Council of Thailand including Thai language and culture, related laws to teaching, and Thai education philosophy, in order to understand the foundation of Thai society, she said.

I already know about Thai education philosophy: bamboo sticks, rote and tunnel vision.

Next!!!

Guess you'll have to read the post again and again. Isn't it useful to "learn" how to march in a stupid looking boy scout uniform?

Foundation of Thai society is THE philosophy! If you don't have time to show up, say you'll be there, even if you're not able doing so.

Bamboo is reusable and therefore a "good tool" as the educators would have the same difficulties, we've got with loud and lazy students being online all day long..

The not losing face is THE way of life for Thais, but not in a with nine other countries united society.

Good that kids are not allowed to ask questions, as we foreigners might HAVE all the answers. Aeeh, sorry....how can you learn anything, if you're not allowed to ask questions?

Like: Why is my teacher such an idiot? Why do they think that Thai students are different to other nationalities? Where's your face teacher? Etc....

I just saw some movies my son in M.3 had made. A tiny Thai female math teacher's trying to teach her subject. But not even one is listening. They're all too busy on facebook, or watching some porn. Great that most Thai teachers seem to be addicted to this weird webpage.

I'm able to tell them that they'd created an environment with free internet,not getting hit by me, etc.. where I can't control the grade six kids anymore. Still got my face.

Why are there so many WHYS in the Land of Wais?-

[duanebigsby]

I really wish people without degrees would stop crying about how they are being put upon and disenfranchaised. A degree has been a standard of entry to most jobs in the West for decades. Why on earth would it not be a requirement in academics?

Like my seventh grade teacher told me about math, if you would put the same effort into doing it as you do avoiding it you'd understand it.

You people are at the end of your rope, working in Thailand, illegally and want the system to make exceptions in what are common standards because you are such a brilliant teacher - but not brilliant or dilligent enough to get a bachelors degree.

I have a degree in an academic subject and studying for TCT tests. Yeah, there is something to being a teacher other than being able to "do the drill". Teaching is perhaps the one job that everyone thinks they can do naturally.

The best judge if you are a non degreed teacher is multiple years teaching at the same school with wp in bkk. Anything short of that and you are just fooling yourself.

Try the low end schools in Cambodia. You are done.

Stop trying to rationalize to people that have achieved their degrees that you deserve to be included in the club, just because. You don't.

College graduate is a standard for everything these days. What it shows if nothing else is diligence and determination. It also proves as fact you have studied in relation to English:

These are basics of any decent liberal arts BA. The diploma certifies you know this stuff.

Composition, Adv Comp

English

Literature

Humanities

Logic and critical thinking

In my major, tons of reading and writing

Senior paper

Teaching at this juncture will never, ever be reduced to "a job". If anything, it has been going in the opposite direction, for years. You have done nothing to assist yourself in this regard save for whining about how experience trumps all.

The only people that ever and I do mean ever, routinely slag degrees are the people that don't have one.

Move on. Move out, really.

I think you are missing the point of the OP. If they go ahead with the new proposal, your degree won't be enough. You will need a teaching license from your home country. I think you are probably an excellent teacher but these proposed rules wouldn't let you or I teach in Thailand with just our BA's and the TCT tests.

[alex88]

As Duane said.

I have a degree too but under the proposed new rules a degree, passing all tests, and having teaching experience, will not be enough.