Light and the Humble Tomato Plant

[cdmtdm]

Hi rice , have u got a link or details on the single trussing u talked about ?, i would like to see some photos on what is required its very interesting ..

cheers

[samuijimmy]

Hi Rice... et al !

I assume you mean the variety of this one, (I could not find the photo this morning)

I will try to find out... hard to catch this guy, as he's out and about on sales and delivery (mostly lettuce). The two Burmese workers, no speak English and probably would have no idea anyway!

In case you missed it the round ones are Grosse Lisse variety brought in from Oz!

This is the first commercial attempt of growing toms in southern Thailand I have come across....

[rice555]

Hi Rice... et al !

I assume you mean the variety of this one, (I could not find the photo this morning)

I will try to find out... hard to catch this guy, as he's out and about on sales and delivery (mostly lettuce). The two Burmese workers, no speak English and probably would have no idea anyway!

In case you missed it the round ones are Grosse Lisse variety brought in from Oz!

This is the first commercial attempt of growing toms in southern Thailand I have come across....

Yes, Thanks.

rice555

[samuijimmy]

OK I stopped by the farm today, he and a crew were fairly busy packing orders of lettuce.... He said he did not know the name of the Tomato, he's growing, just called them "cherry tomatoes" ... I suspect he was more interested in getting orders out than going to find the seed package! ..... When Dancealot gets here, in a week or so, we'll go chat him up with a beer or Mountain Dew !

Quite a few more have ripened since last week, and many more on the way....

They are doing a lot of building too, wanting to turn it in to a Agriculture Tourism spot too .... not sure that will really fly!

[Scoop1]

Hi rice , have u got a link or details on the single trussing u talked about ?, i would like to see some photos on what is required its very interesting ..

cheers

Hi cdmtdm, you asked rice555, about the "single trussing method" I think you maybe talking about a post that I wrote, if so what do you need to know?

Cheers

Scoop

[Scoop1]

Hello All, Scoop1 I'm sorry I missed this thread and didn't repl.,

I use 250gms in each time I mix up a 10Lt. batch of "B" concentrate.

This is basically what I've done since I started weighing my own, this

is the basic WESCO formula.

rice555

Thanks rice, that formula equals, expressed in ppm

N - 246

P - 34

K - 489

Ca - 207

Mg - 48

S - 110

Fe - 1.6

NH4 = 6.4%

EC = 2.31

Cheers

Scoop1

Edited April 25, 2014 by Scoop1

[cdmtdm]

Hi rice , have u got a link or details on the single trussing u talked about ?, i would like to see some photos on what is required its very interesting ..

cheers

Hi cdmtdm, you asked rice555, about the "single trussing method" I think you maybe talking about a post that I wrote, if so what do you need to know?

Cheers

Scoop

Hi Scoop , sorry i thought it was rice ,,, i have the concept in my head of single trussing , but do u have any photos or point me to a website that can illustrate what its all about ..

cheers Chris

[Scoop1]

Hi rice , have u got a link or details on the single trussing u talked about ?, i would like to see some photos on what is required its very interesting ..

cheers

Hi cdmtdm, you asked rice555, about the "single trussing method" I think you maybe talking about a post that I wrote, if so what do you need to know?

Cheers

Scoop

Hi Scoop , sorry i thought it was rice ,,, i have the concept in my head of single trussing , but do u have any photos or point me to a website that can illustrate what its all about ..

cheers Chris

Good Morning all, cdmtdm, what do you want to know?. "Single or double truss tomato growing" is a very simple way I grow my heirloom tomatoes, it has the advantage of being slightly faster than the normal cropping methods, the plant does not reach much more than a metre high, the fruit is larger, and tastes much sweeter when you get it right, as you may be aware I grow everything in hydroponics, for all my tomatoes I use a 20 litre drum with a 1.5 mtr pvc pipe cable tied to the inside of the bucket and have a hole drilled into the top of that pipe because they get very very heavy and need to be supported from above and then i put 4 plants equally spaced { so there is enough room for the 4 drippers } in each drum, if I do 'Double truss" I wait until the 2nd truss has 3-4 leaves above it, and then pinch the growing tip out of the plant and then when any new shoots appear pinch those out as well, so you should have 3-5 leaves below the first flower truss and 3-5 leaves above that first truss, and then you will have 3-5 leaves above the 2nd flower truss and that is the way it will remain as long as you pinch out any new shoot growth, so then all the assimilates from those 15 or so leaves supplies only those 2 flower trusses, there is no more competition for assimilates because you take out any new growth when it appears .

Can I suggest that you use the " Double Truss" method and don't use cherry type cultivars because you wont get the advantage like you do with larger varieties, you will be amazed at the size difference, I use "Grosse Lisse" and they end up as close to perfect as any hybrid you will see, and an heirloom gown this way taste superb. If you are going to try this method in hydroponics ,let me know if I can help in any way.

Cheers

Scoop1

Ps - I don't have any detailed photos and there is no website that I know of, so I guess your stuck with me

[rice555]

Hello All, Scoop1 I'm sorry I missed this thread and didn't repl.,

I use 250gms in each time I mix up a 10Lt. batch of "B" concentrate.

This is basically what I've done since I started weighing my own, this

is the basic WESCO formula.

rice555

Thanks rice, that formula equals, expressed in ppm

N - 246

P - 34

K - 489

Ca - 207

Mg - 48

S - 110

Fe - 1.6

NH4 = 6.4%

EC = 2.31

Cheers

Scoop1

Hello All, Scoop1, we've been having a different weather pattern than we usually have this

tine of the year, lots of thunder showers and I'm an "F" man, 92-104 over the past 15 days.

You mentioned that the EC should be lowered when HOT, by how much? Since I'm asking,

without buying different chems, just working with what I nave, how can I reformulate the mix

for fruiting plants?

Thanks.

rice555

[Scoop1]

Hello All, Scoop1 I'm sorry I missed this thread and didn't repl.,

I use 250gms in each time I mix up a 10Lt. batch of "B" concentrate.

This is basically what I've done since I started weighing my own, this

is the basic WESCO formula.

rice555

Thanks rice, that formula equals, expressed in ppm

N - 246

P - 34

K - 489

Ca - 207

Mg - 48

S - 110

Fe - 1.6

NH4 = 6.4%

EC = 2.31

Cheers

Scoop1

Hello All, Scoop1, we've been having a different weather pattern than we usually have this

tine of the year, lots of thunder showers and I'm an "F" man, 92-104 over the past 15 days.

You mentioned that the EC should be lowered when HOT, by how much? Since I'm asking,

without buying different chems, just working with what I nave, how can I reformulate the mix

for fruiting plants?

Thanks.

rice555

Hi Rice, nice to hear from you, firstly the analysis I quoted in the last post is slightly incorrect because the Wesco percentages of, Potassium Nitrate , Mono ammonium Phosphate, Mono Potassium Phosphate, and Potassium Sulphate are expressed in Oxide form and therefore there is a slight conversion that has to be made, now this is the correct analysis of what you are using at a 1-100 dilution rate, as follows, expressed in ppm or if you like mg/l.

Dilution Rate 1- 100 [10 ml / litre ]

Macro Elements

N = 258 PPM

P = 48

K = 417

MG = 48

CA = 207

S = 111

Micro Elements

Fe = 1.4

?

?

?

?

?

EC = 2.31 { depending on the EC of your water supply }

NH4 = 6.4%

K/N Ratio 1.6 -1

I can't calculate the Iron - Fe EDTA or the Micro Elements because I don't know what the percentages are that are in the Fe = EDTA + TE.

Now as to your question about a "Fruiting Formula" that's what you have, BUT!!! , it is a formula for a heavy fruit load, and a bit too strong for a young plant, but for a mature plant with a heavy crop load its not too shabby. The Iron [ Fe ] in my opinion is way to low, depending on how much is supplied in the Trace spray?, I run all my nutrients at 5 - 6.5ppm Fe ,so it would be good to get a percentage of the iron in that trace spray to make sure of the exact level. The 417ppm of Potassium is derived from the Potassium Nitrate = 311ppm of K and the other 106ppm of K is from the Potassium Sulphate, in my opinion you should keep the Potassium Sulphate as a Potassium Booster as the plant develops a heavy crop load and strips that element from the nutrient, rather than add it to the Nutrient Concentrate , you have all the necessary fertilisers to do that and wont need to purchase any extras, this is an example of a the tomato nutrient that I use and you can compare the two, I also use Potassium Sulphate as the crop develops at a dilution rate of 1-200 so if I add 100ml I add 100ppm of K, so it is so much easier to control the Potassium levels using this method. But as I said its a little to strong for young plants, so maybe you may want to make a formula to use with the younger plants which can be used for lots of other plants, such as Lettuce, spinach, peas and beans, strawberries and the like.

Dilution Rate 1- 200 [ 5ml / litre ]

Macro Elements

N - 258 PPM

P - 59

K - 360

MG - 59

Ca - 202

S - 80

Micro Elements

Fe - 6.5

Mn - 1.97

B - 0.07

Zn - 0.25

Cu - 0.07

Mo - 0.05

EC - 2.5 as Tested in pure water

Nh4 - 4%

K/N Ratio = 1.4 - 1

Sorry Rice I will have to finish this post tomorrow

Cheers

Scoop

Edited April 27, 2014 by Scoop1

[rice555]

Hello All, Scoop1 here is more info, in the 1st. pic,it shows the info and amounts

except for the B micros, the 2nd. pic give the %'s of the trace-micros. The 3rd.

pic id the iron for the A mix.

Doing a quick pH test, my nute mix comes up a little under 7., but I will redo the

test in the daylight so I can mach the color better, and another water pH test.

By the way, my nute that I'm using, the EC is 2.4. We were at 104F.

And WESCO's nutes for salid/greens 4th. pic.

Thanks.

rice555

[Scoop1]

Hello All, Scoop1 here is more info, in the 1st. pic,it shows the info and amounts

except for the B micros, the 2nd. pic give the %'s of the trace-micros. The 3rd.

pic id the iron for the A mix.

Doing a quick pH test, my nute mix comes up a little under 7., but I will redo the

test in the daylight so I can mach the color better, and another water pH test.

By the way, my nute that I'm using, the EC is 2.4. We were at 104F.

And WESCO's nutes for salid/greens 4th. pic.

Thanks.

rice555

Hi Rice, the "Wesco Salad Greens Formula" is as follows , again

expressed in PPM

Dilution Rate 1-100 { 10ml/ litre }

Original Nutrient

At EC - 2.2 At EC -1.5 At EC - O.1

N - 228 N -155 N - 10.36 Just multiply these elements by whatever EC you want to see the elemental levels at different EC's

P - 60 P - 40.8 P - 2.72

K - 306 K - 208.5 K - 13.90

Mg - 48 Mg - 32.7 Mg - 2.18

Ca - 200 Ca - 136.5 Ca - 9.09

S - 65 S - 44.25 S - 2.95

Fe - 1.4 Fe - 0.945 Fe - 0.063

Now multiply these figures by the EC you would like, example

so we want an EC of 1.5 so multiply N by 15 , 10.36 x 15 = 155.4ppm, so that's what your original nutrient looks at EC 1.5

EC = 2.22 and so on and so on .Now!! the important thing is that all the individual ratios stay the same, but it is not as strong and much

NH4 = 4.4% better for salt sensitive plants.

K-N Ratio 1.34-1

I still cant do the micro elements because the actual percentage of the elements is not stated, only the percentage of what is in the bag, example Iron [ Fe ] can range from 7% to 14%, so without knowing that figure it's not possible!!!.

Once again it is too strong, for salt sensitive plants like Fancy Lettuce, Crisp Head Lettuce, Silverbeet, Tatsoi ,Bok choy, Spinach, Strawberries and the like, at EC 1.5 it is a much better nutrient for those type of plants, although the Calcium level, I believe is a little high and again the Iron is way low depending on the Fe-EDTA+Te.

Personally I run three formulas a Vegetative Formula {for most herbs with the exception of Basil}, an Intermediate Formula {for the above mentioned plants} and a Fruiting Formula, for plants like Tomato's, Chilli, and Peppers, I then have a Potassium Sulphate Formula to use under heavy crop loadings of fruiting plants. Ok, now what EC to run???. Here in Summer temperatures ranged from hotttt !!!!! to stinking hotttt, 30-40 degrees Celsius { 86 - 104, just for you Rice, Fahrenheit}, I was running my Tomato's at EC 2.0, the drainage was at 30% { which it should be } and the EC climbed to over EC 3.0, it was very windy most days which did not help much, so the only thing you can do is lower the EC and at EC 1.8 it stabilised very quickly and had no further radical shifts in EC, now the temperature is cooling and the plants are under a very heavy crop loading, I am back up to EC 3.0 and using 200ppm of extra Potassium and all is perfect. It is a must to have a good EC meter that is calibrated regularly to monitor the leachate { drainage } from the system to be able to control the ever rising EC.

If you would like to run those type of Formulas, let me know and I will help you with the weights and measures if needed.

It would be so much easier if you had individual Micro Elements, in particular the Iron Fe EDTA or maybe ask Wesco what in , PPM are you supplying of those individual elements at that dilution rate ???. I normally have a Part C with my Formulas that contain all the Micro Elements except for the Iron, so I can change the EC's of the Macro Elements up or down without affecting the Micro Elements which should remain at a constant level to avoid any deficiency or toxicity, which is a very good practice.

Hope this helps, any problems give me yell

Cheers

Scoop

Edited April 28, 2014 by Scoop1

[rice555]

Hello All, Scoop1, the only thing I could find on the Nic-Spray is that it is made

by BASF UK, and that the "%" given on the label is per 1Kg.

To go to a pic from one of your posts, what would a average grow and fruit

formula be with the the chems on the list?

Will be in BKK next Fri. for Horti-Asia2014 and will later be out by WESCO on

the way back to Korat. If your micro are in .0 grams, I'm forked, will need a new

scale, mine only does 0.grams.

Thanks

rice555

[Scoop1]

Hello All, Scoop1, the only thing I could find on the Nic-Spray is that it is made

by BASF UK, and that the "%" given on the label is per 1Kg.

To go to a pic from one of your posts, what would a average grow and fruit

formula be with the the chems on the list?

Will be in BKK next Fri. for Horti-Asia2014 and will later be out by WESCO on

the way back to Korat. If your micro are in .0 grams, I'm forked, will need a new

scale, mine only does 0.grams.

Thanks

rice555

Hi Rice, you are correct you are "forked", a proper set of digital scales needed to accurately weigh the micro elements can be expensive my first set cost over $300 twenty years ago, but being a Target shooter and loading my own ammunition I purchased a second set of scales two years ago that weigh in hundredth's of a gram and were only $50 and are very sensitive and very accurate, and also the Sodium molybdate is $100/kilo, extremely expensive!!! and considering you only need around 0.2 of a gram per 10 litres of nutrient concentrate, its a fair bit of money to have tied up for years and years. So here is couple of options, 1 - if you ARE prepared to purchase a proper set of the scales, you could ask Wesco if you can purchase smaller amounts of the micro elements. 2 - If you don't want to purchase scales,you can stick to the Trace spray { as long as you are not seeing and micro element deficiencies or toxicities} and purchase 1kg of Iron Fe EDTA or Iron Fe DTPA { which you already have } depending on the Ph. of the water supply because there are issues of the stability of Iron chelates at high Ph. levels in the presence of Calcium, so its just a matter of choosing the right Iron chelate. so that's just something to think about hen you have nothing to do .

Unless you are growing Herbs such as Parsley, Cilantro { coriander leaf } Chives and other herbs that you need to slow down the flowering process, its not really necessary and you can get away without it, but its no problem to have three Nutrient Concentrates if you wish, but I would definitely have a intermediate Nutrient concentrate to use when the fruiting plants are young and it can also be used for your Lettuce, Silverbeet , Spinach, strawberries.

It would be great to know the Ph. and EC of your water supply so the nutrient concentrate can be formulated to suit those parameters, also how are you feeding your plants? I know you drip feed, but is the leachate just running to waste or are you collecting it in a separate container, this is important so you can constantly monitor the leachate with your EC meter and Ph. strips.

Let me know which way you would like go.

Cheers

Scoop

[Scoop1]

Hello All, Scoop1, the only thing I could find on the Nic-Spray is that it is made

by BASF UK, and that the "%" given on the label is per 1Kg.

To go to a pic from one of your posts, what would a average grow and fruit

formula be with the the chems on the list?

Will be in BKK next Fri. for Horti-Asia2014 and will later be out by WESCO on

the way back to Korat. If your micro are in .0 grams, I'm forked, will need a new

scale, mine only does 0.grams.

Thanks

rice555

[rice555]

Hello Scoop1, I also use to reload my own, 17 Rem to 458 Win. Mag., But in the

States we used grains, not grams for weighing powder. My son has all my reloading

and fly tying equipment.

I was looking at a scale that would do .0g a few weeks back, same brand as I'm using

know for nutes.

There's a shop in SQ that sales chelated micros and moly, they have the Rexlan APN

mix and the single mineral and several types of iron.

Will probably get my X to send me the moly as it's about time for here to send me a

CARE package of things not found in LOS and just get an Oz.

I have to double check my double checked pH and EC readings as they seem wrong.

got to get off the net, thunder storm passing through.

Thanks

rice555

[Scoop1]

Hello Scoop1, I also use to reload my own, 17 Rem to 458 Win. Mag., But in the

States we used grains, not grams for weighing powder. My son has all my reloading

and fly tying equipment.

I was looking at a scale that would do .0g a few weeks back, same brand as I'm using

know for nutes.

There's a shop in SQ that sales chelated micros and moly, they have the Rexlan APN

mix and the single mineral and several types of iron.

Will probably get my X to send me the moly as it's about time for here to send me a

CARE package of things not found in LOS and just get an Oz.

I have to double check my double checked pH and EC readings as they seem wrong.

got to get off the net, thunder storm passing through.

Thanks

rice555

Hi Rice, are those scales "Tanita" because that is what I have had for 20 years I have had no trouble at all with them, but back then they were $300, I think I have worked out the micros, but I am not 100% sure, as follows expressed in PPM

Mg - 3.00 ppm Why this is in the mix I have no idea, personally I don't think this Trace spray was designed for Hydroponics, I think it is what it says it is, a "Trace

Fe - 1.14 Element" foliar spray.

Mn - 1.16

B - 1.13

Zn - 1.14

Cu - 1.25 This is at Toxic Levels in a hydroponic solution

Mo - 0.01

Let me know how you get on.

Cheers

Scoop

Edited May 1, 2014 by Scoop1

[connda]

Wow! Excellent, in-depth post. I love to know the 'whys' of things.
What I got out of this other than technical detail is that I'll plant tomatoes all over my land in different places with differing light intensities, perhaps planting two or three different varieties, see which one's do the best in each of the different places, save seeds, and plant in the optimal locations the next year. Yeah, trial and error, but that's low-cost science for ya. Thanks for the post!

[Scoop1]

Wow! Excellent, in-depth post. I love to know the 'whys' of things.

What I got out of this other than technical detail is that I'll plant tomatoes all over my land in different places with differing light intensities, perhaps planting two or three different varieties, see which one's do the best in each of the different places, save seeds, and plant in the optimal locations the next year. Yeah, trial and error, but that's low-cost science for ya. Thanks for the post!

Hi all, Connda, thank you and no problem, hope you gained some very valuable knowledge, I wouldn't say its "low cost science" its more about your own "personal scientific research and data collection" which enables you to make better and more informed decisions about what your plants prefer so they can grow at peak performance, the tomatoes' that I grow are heirloom cultivars and I take the seeds from one of the very best tomato fruit on the plant for the next crop, and because I mainly use a single or double truss growing method, I do use a lot of seeds.

Cheers

Scoop

[rice555]

Hello All, Scoop1 I tried to @ the guy from WESCO and the @ bounced, resent @

to the address on their www, haven't got a reply yet.

Off to Hortiasia2014 late tonight for the Thursday opening. From what I have found

out, Chia-Tai is a reseller of Haifa Chems and all the people will be in one spot to

find things.

Also WESCO wouldn't SMS 1-2Kg orders the last couple of thins I tried to get things.

you may now have to pick up at the warehouse now??

Again, thanks on the formula work.

rice555

[rice555]

Forgot, printed this out for the taxi if I go Thursday while in BKK

rice555

[Scoop1]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

Forgot, printed this out for the taxi if I go Thursday while in BKK

rice555

Hi Rice, I am just waiting to find out what you have achieved with the Micros and then I will send you the formula that you want, also can you let me know exactly the percentages on the bags of fertilizer salts that you have, if they are different to the Wesco mix?. Also I am wondering if you have seen any sign of toxicities on your plants?

Cheers

Scoop

[rice555]

Hello All, Scoop1, the number that I come up with are:

water pH 6.5 but the EC shows-see pic.

nute pH a RCH over 6.5 at EC 2.4, we are still doing 100F

when it's not raining.

I need to get a new meter, my Accent Sal Tasta going on

13 years, but the numbers seem to remain constant.

Again, thanks for you help and patience.

rice555

[Scoop1]

Hi Rice, OK ,I have sorted out all the macro elements , just need to know what you may be thinking about the micro elements, if you are going to obtain the individual micro elements? I have formulated three individual formula's for you, a Vegetative Formula, General Purpose Fruiting Formula, and a Tomato Formula, now just a few questions, do you want to stay with the 1-100 { 10ml per 1 litre } dilution rate or would you like to go to a 1-200 dilution rate { 5ml per 1 litre } the advantage of 1-200 dilution rate is that you don't have to mix nutrients as often, so more time spent relaxing with a cold beer, the disadvantage is you have to be a little more accurate when measuring the nutrient concentrates to be diluted in the water, and also would you like to go to a three part formula, Part A, Part B, and Part C, { Part C having all the micro elements separate from the macro elements} the advantage of a three part formula is that you can RAISE or LOWER the macro elements to different EC's { Part A and Part B } with out upsetting the micro elements which will remain at the same dilution rate , the disadvantage is , you will need an extra drum for Part C .

You will really need an accurate EC meter, or to check your meter, try and get some Calibration Solution to make sure it remains spot on!!

Cheers

Scoop

[rice555]

Hello All, Scoop1, I'm going to have to stick to the Nic-Spray till after the first of the year,

need to my mad money into a shed at the farm so I have a place to put the shit I now have.

So what are the numbers for 3 part mix for grow and fruit.

Thanks for your input!

rice555

[Scoop1]

Hello All, Scoop1, I'm going to have to stick to the Nic-Spray till after the first of the year,

need to my mad money into a shed at the farm so I have a place to put the shit I now have.

So what are the numbers for 3 part mix for grow and fruit.

Thanks for your input!

rice555

Hi All, Rice I have just sent you a pm with the Vegetative Formula, I will do the other two Later.

Cheers

Scoop

[rice555]

Hello All, Received, many thanks!!

rice555

[Scoop1]

Hi Rice just sent a pm with the Tomato Formula, if you would like I can do a general purpose fruiting formula to use on your young fruiting plants Tomato's Chilli's and Bell Peppers, and it will also be excellent at different ECs for Lettuce, Silverbeet, Tatsoi, Bok choi , Peas and beans and most of the herbs with the exception of Basil which has a very different nutrient requirement .

Cheers

Scoop

[rice555]

Hello All, received, thanks!!.

Scoop, have you used any of the leaf culture test kits?

Still hanging in somewhat, some bugs, but rain, can't spray.

Pink Berkley Tie-Dye, OP-Ind

rice555

[Scoop1]

Hello All, received, thanks!!.

Scoop, have you used any of the leaf culture test kits?

Still hanging in somewhat, some bugs, but rain, can't spray.

Pink Berkley Tie-Dye, OP-Ind

rice555

Good morning all, rice I have never used those kits, I have all my test's done at a laboratory that specialises in Hydroponic Nutrients and tissue culture.

Cheers

Scoop