Bangkok Shutdown: Violence fears realised

[Mackie]

Just get a warning from Udon Thani that reds plan some violence in Bangkok...

Of course they are planning. Even Bangkok Post reported on them stockpiling weapons in Bangkok. That information is not to be dismissed easily as the Bangkok Post sided with the government in this crisis as the Nation sided with the anti-government protesters.

[northernjohn]

9mm automatic pistol for self defence I can understand....but what kind of people need 4 grenades for self defence? Sent from my GT-I9200 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Red shirts.

I just got done watching a half hour show about Thailand on News Asia. The red shirts should have claimed no understand. One even blamed all the countries problems on the anti government protesters. The interviewer was kind. He didn't even try to ask the guy how the protesters got all the money that was supposed to be spent on rice. A lot of them just said one man one vote. What a novel idea. I wonder if it will ever catch on. In fact I wonder how many votes he cast at the last election.

The sad part was not a one of them said any thing about the issues. Not a word as to what Yingluck has done for them. It just reinforced in me the need for a real education here in Thailand. Who ever or when ever the next PM comes into office I hope they have the guts to make that the first thing on their to do list.

[Thait Spot]

9mm automatic pistol for self defence I can understand....but what kind of people need 4 grenades for self defence? Sent from my GT-I9200 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Red shirts.

I just got done watching a half hour show about Thailand on News Asia. The red shirts should have claimed no understand. One even blamed all the countries problems on the anti government protesters. The interviewer was kind. He didn't even try to ask the guy how the protesters got all the money that was supposed to be spent on rice. A lot of them just said one man one vote. What a novel idea. I wonder if it will ever catch on. In fact I wonder how many votes he cast at the last election.

The sad part was not a one of them said any thing about the issues. Not a word as to what Yingluck has done for them. It just reinforced in me the need for a real education here in Thailand. Who ever or when ever the next PM comes into office I hope they have the guts to make that the first thing on their to do list.

I'm sure these esteemed toilers of the soil believe in one man one vote but I'm convinced that if you tell them that Surapong is voting for Thaksin so he's already got his vote and that woman are excluded from this game so a crisp "X" in the box marked "No" will be rewarded with a box full of crisp notes and the deeds to Chiang Mai when Thaksin returns to Bangkok

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[northernjohn]

You say it's not about Thaksin when it very much is (unless you are totally ignorant of the protestors' goals) and you are not a red shirt or Thaksin supporter. Complete rubbish. Your other comments are far more revealing (& truthful) about your stance.

Most of the prorestors are not Suthep suporters. He is a catalyst for many people being sick and tired of the Shin dynasty and their corrupt, un-democratic and autocratic rule which, even before the protests have had Thailand going downhill.

This is about "the opposition" wanting power for themselves. In the bigger picture, Thaksin is simply the "catalyst" to gain that power.

Once they get power, one has to wonder how they will manage to keep it.

Will it be democracy? Will it be eliminating corruption? Or, will it be something else?

You seem to have ignored what Suthep & others have been saying - the clearest is that he (Suthep) has no power grabbing agenda, that he will not be a part nor a leader of any reform group.

The so-called 'getting power' is a straw man which posters build and then speculate on how awful things might be, just as you've done.

IMO the country needs a short pause in the fake democracy that currently exists. An independent reform group with a fixed timetable should be formed, elections temporarily suspended, with a referendum on the findings of that group followed by a general election.

Most people know that it is impossible to completely eliminate the Shin dynasty in the short term but a real organisation - with teeth - to combat corruption and at least abate some of its worst aspects is badly needed. Even if Suthep & co completely fail to reach their objectives, they have raised the corruption (& all its side-issues) menace to a much higher level of awareness and it can't just be ignored like Yingluck & her brother have always done.

In the main I agree with you. No place have I seen where Suthep plans to be the leader. He has no political affiliations at this point. The ease that people fail to see that he is calling for elections after a reform of the government has been arranged by a non political council goes rite over there head or in one ear and out the other. These people are as you say not aware of what is going on. There must be some protection built into the constitution to protect the people from corruption that is right in your face and a government that says it will not obey what the Constitutional court says. What kind of a person knowingly backs that kind of governing.

As I said earlier I just watched a half hour show on Thailand. It was mainly looking at the red shirts point of view. the interviewer did not challenge any thing they said no matter how stupid it was. Interestingly enough he did mention the three different parts of the red shirt movement . He mentioned that one of them has not but will probably divorce them selves from Thaksin. Not sure how that can be done and still support Yingluck and the PTP.

If nothing else a pause long enough to make the elections fair. No more the party with the most free floating money getting elected. It would be a start. As the present older generation and upcoming older generation disappear more and more the people will be talking about the issues.

Edit

I forgot to mention that none of the red shirts or leaders mentioned the side issues.

Edited January 16, 2014 by northernjohn

[Ozymandias]

and it is only going to get worse ... hope you are happy TS ... more blood on your hands

Don't suppose you remember the 90 that were shot dead in 2010 then, do you? But then, I guess they were mainly form the North & North East, so their lives probably don't mean much to people like you.

I suggest gaining a little more perspective. Thailand is in a state of near anarchy because of the lack of it.

[Ozymandias]

You say it's not about Thaksin when it very much is (unless you are totally ignorant of the protestors' goals) and you are not a red shirt or Thaksin supporter. Complete rubbish. Your other comments are far more revealing (& truthful) about your stance.

Most of the prorestors are not Suthep suporters. He is a catalyst for many people being sick and tired of the Shin dynasty and their corrupt, un-democratic and autocratic rule which, even before the protests have had Thailand going downhill.

This is about "the opposition" wanting power for themselves. In the bigger picture, Thaksin is simply the "catalyst" to gain that power.

Once they get power, one has to wonder how they will manage to keep it.

Will it be democracy? Will it be eliminating corruption? Or, will it be something else?

You seem to have ignored what Suthep & others have been saying - the clearest is that he (Suthep) has no power grabbing agenda, that he will not be a part nor a leader of any reform group.

The so-called 'getting power' is a straw man which posters build and then speculate on how awful things might be, just as you've done.

IMO the country needs a short pause in the fake democracy that currently exists. An independent reform group with a fixed timetable should be formed, elections temporarily suspended, with a referendum on the findings of that group followed by a general election.

Most people know that it is impossible to completely eliminate the Shin dynasty in the short term but a real organisation - with teeth - to combat corruption and at least abate some of its worst aspects is badly needed. Even if Suthep & co completely fail to reach their objectives, they have raised the corruption (& all its side-issues) menace to a much higher level of awareness and it can't just be ignored like Yingluck & her brother have always done.

In the main I agree with you. No place have I seen where Suthep plans to be the leader. He has no political affiliations at this point. The ease that people fail to see that he is calling for elections after a reform of the government has been arranged by a non political council goes rite over there head or in one ear and out the other. These people are as you say not aware of what is going on. There must be some protection built into the constitution to protect the people from corruption that is right in your face and a government that says it will not obey what the Constitutional court says. What kind of a person knowingly backs that kind of governing.

As I said earlier I just watched a half hour show on Thailand. It was mainly looking at the red shirts point of view. the interviewer did not challenge any thing they said no matter how stupid it was. Interestingly enough he did mention the three different parts of the red shirt movement . He mentioned that one of them has not but will probably divorce them selves from Thaksin. Not sure how that can be done and still support Yingluck and the PTP.

If nothing else a pause long enough to make the elections fair. No more the party with the most free floating money getting elected. It would be a start. As the present older generation and upcoming older generation disappear more and more the people will be talking about the issues.

Edit

I forgot to mention that none of the red shirts or leaders mentioned the side issues.

The parties that have won every consecutive election since the late 1990s have been those that promise/offer the most benefits to the rural poor. Failing to recognise that and transforming policy and political ethos accordingly is exactly why the Democrats have failed to win a majority in that time. Plus, only the Southern & Central poor trust them.

Sweeping away the dominance of the two main parties would be a positive move. Personally, I think it can only be politically healthy to see much more plurality in Thai politics and of course, cleaner, younger and fresher politicians.However, the Dems don't want this any more than PT do and individual MPs are (at least in private) horrified at the prospect that reforms will go so far as to curb their ability to make money on the side so as to extend their existing wealth. This is why many of them entered politics in the first placeIt has nothing to do with how much money is being thrown about, as shown time and time again in exit polls and research. Clue: the last time around, the Dems spent more on vote-buying and it made little to no difference.

It wll take a sea change to transform Thailand into a functioning democracy. One that places the army firmly under the control of elected governments and makes public servants accountable to the electorate. It will also involve a transformation of Thai political culture, one in which the majority of Thais see corruption as intrinsically wrong. At the moment, surveys consistently show that 60-75% accept corruption if they gain from it. Much like the political parties.

Catch 22?

Edited January 16, 2014 by Ozymandias

[rreddin]

another disingenuous report from The Nation. Every credible news source in the world is talking about the peaceful protests and, in the context of declining support and dwindling numbers, prospects for a peaceful resolution. But not The Nation. I wonder why

The Nation is doing what every newspaper editor throught the world knows. Bad news sells.

[tilac2]

9mm automatic pistol for self defence I can understand....but what kind of people need 4 grenades for self defence? Sent from my GT-I9200 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Red shirts.

I just got done watching a half hour show about Thailand on News Asia. The red shirts should have claimed no understand. One even blamed all the countries problems on the anti government protesters. The interviewer was kind. He didn't even try to ask the guy how the protesters got all the money that was supposed to be spent on rice. A lot of them just said one man one vote. What a novel idea. I wonder if it will ever catch on. In fact I wonder how many votes he cast at the last election.

The sad part was not a one of them said any thing about the issues. Not a word as to what Yingluck has done for them. It just reinforced in me the need for a real education here in Thailand. Who ever or when ever the next PM comes into office I hope they have the guts to make that the first thing on their to do list.

I'm sure these esteemed toilers of the soil believe in one man one vote but I'm convinced that if you tell them that Surapong is voting for Thaksin so he's already got his vote and that woman are excluded from this game so a crisp "X" in the box marked "No" will be rewarded with a box full of crisp notes and the deeds to Chiang Mai when Thaksin returns to Bangkok

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

I can't imagine how either of you could be more offensive to the rural people of Thailand. You write, "these esteemed toilers of the soil" with contempt. Clearly you feel that the people of the N/NE are simple, stupid farmers and don't deserve the vote. Congratulations: you speak just like the upper-class Thais of Bangkok.

The crucial issue of course is the issue that one of you mentions above with such contempt: "one man one vote".

It is one man (and woman) one vote that is going to determine the future of this country. There is nothing you privileged farangs or Thai upper classes or Generals or judges or Mr Suthep or southern followers can do about that. The problem that you the conservatives in this country face is that Thaksin started an unstoppable process: he let the genie of democracy and empowerment out of the bottle. As a result, the future direction of Thailand is certainly with the people of the N/NE because they now have the confidence they need and they have the numbers on their side, and so they are going to finish the job of democratisation that Thaksin started.

Yes, "one man one vote" will determine the future of Thailand. Scary, eh?

I don't understand the rest of your post about "woman are excluded" "box full of crisp notes" etc. Clearly votes have been bought on both sides, but it has not materially affected elections according to the studies I have seen.

[Publicus]

You say it's not about Thaksin when it very much is (unless you are totally ignorant of the protestors' goals) and you are not a red shirt or Thaksin supporter. Complete rubbish. Your other comments are far more revealing (& truthful) about your stance.

Most of the prorestors are not Suthep suporters. He is a catalyst for many people being sick and tired of the Shin dynasty and their corrupt, un-democratic and autocratic rule which, even before the protests have had Thailand going downhill.

This is about "the opposition" wanting power for themselves. In the bigger picture, Thaksin is simply the "catalyst" to gain that power.

Once they get power, one has to wonder how they will manage to keep it.

Will it be democracy? Will it be eliminating corruption? Or, will it be something else?

You seem to have ignored what Suthep & others have been saying - the clearest is that he (Suthep) has no power grabbing agenda, that he will not be a part nor a leader of any reform group.

The so-called 'getting power' is a straw man which posters build and then speculate on how awful things might be, just as you've done.

IMO the country needs a short pause in the fake democracy that currently exists. An independent reform group with a fixed timetable should be formed, elections temporarily suspended, with a referendum on the findings of that group followed by a general election.

Most people know that it is impossible to completely eliminate the Shin dynasty in the short term but a real organisation - with teeth - to combat corruption and at least abate some of its worst aspects is badly needed. Even if Suthep & co completely fail to reach their objectives, they have raised the corruption (& all its side-issues) menace to a much higher level of awareness and it can't just be ignored like Yingluck & her brother have always done.

Suthep thinks, the feudal council acts.

[Publicus]

and it is only going to get worse ... hope you are happy TS ... more blood on your hands

The protesters are the ones with blood on their hands, they have no right to stop people from earning a livelihood or going about their business just because they want their own way. The same applied in 2010. Look at it this way. If I was back in Scotland, going to my work, and someone I didn't know, accosted me and tried to stop me, then I would hit back. What's the difference? The protesters are in the wrong here. The way to protest is at the ballot box.

Well this is not Scotland and the ballot box here is bought and in some areas off-limits to those that red shirt mobs oppose. The protestors are not accosting people going to work they are asking (not forcing) those at work in the ministries to stop work in an effort to get some sort of sensible response from Thaksin & his clone.

The protestors have very little blood on their hands - no more than the BIB and whatever third hand is at work. Whether the third hand is Thaksin's work we don't know but the cause certainly is the amnesty attempt which hasn't gone away.

I suppose those protesting against government corruption and/or authoritarianism in Cambodia, Bangladesh, Turkey, Ukraine and Hong Kong recently are all wrong too.

Of the countries you choose to present, none of the protesters are protesting against democracy per se.

Only Suthep is following the principles and style of Mussolini in specifically and explicitly opposing democracy and advocating a still anonymous fascist council with an unknown agenda rule absolutely and significantly into the future.

[AleG]

PTP spin machine is in over-drive today.

[Thait Spot]

9mm automatic pistol for self defence I can understand....but what kind of people need 4 grenades for self defence? Sent from my GT-I9200 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Red shirts.

I just got done watching a half hour show about Thailand on News Asia. The red shirts should have claimed no understand. One even blamed all the countries problems on the anti government protesters. The interviewer was kind. He didn't even try to ask the guy how the protesters got all the money that was supposed to be spent on rice. A lot of them just said one man one vote. What a novel idea. I wonder if it will ever catch on. In fact I wonder how many votes he cast at the last election.

The sad part was not a one of them said any thing about the issues. Not a word as to what Yingluck has done for them. It just reinforced in me the need for a real education here in Thailand. Who ever or when ever the next PM comes into office I hope they have the guts to make that the first thing on their to do list.

I'm sure these esteemed toilers of the soil believe in one man one vote but I'm convinced that if you tell them that Surapong is voting for Thaksin so he's already got his vote and that woman are excluded from this game so a crisp "X" in the box marked "No" will be rewarded with a box full of crisp notes and the deeds to Chiang Mai when Thaksin returns to Bangkok

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

I can't imagine how either of you could be more offensive to the rural people of Thailand. You write, "these esteemed toilers of the soil" with contempt. Clearly you feel that the people of the N/NE are simple, stupid farmers and don't deserve the vote. Congratulations: you speak just like the upper-class Thais of Bangkok.

The crucial issue of course is the issue that one of you mentions above with such contempt: "one man one vote".

It is one man (and woman) one vote that is going to determine the future of this country. There is nothing you privileged farangs or Thai upper classes or Generals or judges or Mr Suthep or southern followers can do about that. The problem that you the conservatives in this country face is that Thaksin started an unstoppable process: he let the genie of democracy and empowerment out of the bottle. As a result, the future direction of Thailand is certainly with the people of the N/NE because they now have the confidence they need and they have the numbers on their side, and so they are going to finish the job of democratisation that Thaksin started.

Yes, "one man one vote" will determine the future of Thailand. Scary, eh?

I don't understand the rest of your post about "woman are excluded" "box full of crisp notes" etc. Clearly votes have been bought on both sides, but it has not materially affected elections according to the studies I have seen.

So, you take my post and from it you determine:

1. I an saying that N/NE people are stupid

2. I don't think that the N/NE people deserve to vote

3. I am a a privileged farang

My family are from the NE and I most certainly do not think that they are stupid - poorly educated yes, but not stupid.

I think that every voter has the right to vote - but not to sell it (for what effectively amounts to less than 1B a day per administartion)

The privileged farang thing is just nonsense - so I shall ignore it

Now, when the voters have finished voting and we are left with a government that has a majority around the size of the rice farmers (who coincidentally have been promised that they will be paid massively over the market price for their goods) then you have a flawed democracy. A bought democracy. Same with the minimum wage and the graduates salary (that withered on the vine).

Nevertheless that democracy was respected. For 2.5 years.

Then the government thought that it was god and could do whatever it liked. Free Thaksin? No problem. Seize the upper house through judicial coup? No problem. Cheat with different versions of legislation? No problem. Cheat on the house votes? No problem. Defy the constitiution court and refuse to accept it's jurisdiction? No problem.

So you see, the democracy that the PTP was given was not respected - they did not respect the votes of the people.

[Publicus]

Red shirts.

I just got done watching a half hour show about Thailand on News Asia. The red shirts should have claimed no understand. One even blamed all the countries problems on the anti government protesters. The interviewer was kind. He didn't even try to ask the guy how the protesters got all the money that was supposed to be spent on rice. A lot of them just said one man one vote. What a novel idea. I wonder if it will ever catch on. In fact I wonder how many votes he cast at the last election.

The sad part was not a one of them said any thing about the issues. Not a word as to what Yingluck has done for them. It just reinforced in me the need for a real education here in Thailand. Who ever or when ever the next PM comes into office I hope they have the guts to make that the first thing on their to do list.

I'm sure these esteemed toilers of the soil believe in one man one vote but I'm convinced that if you tell them that Surapong is voting for Thaksin so he's already got his vote and that woman are excluded from this game so a crisp "X" in the box marked "No" will be rewarded with a box full of crisp notes and the deeds to Chiang Mai when Thaksin returns to Bangkok

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

I can't imagine how either of you could be more offensive to the rural people of Thailand. You write, "these esteemed toilers of the soil" with contempt. Clearly you feel that the people of the N/NE are simple, stupid farmers and don't deserve the vote. Congratulations: you speak just like the upper-class Thais of Bangkok.

The crucial issue of course is the issue that one of you mentions above with such contempt: "one man one vote".

It is one man (and woman) one vote that is going to determine the future of this country. There is nothing you privileged farangs or Thai upper classes or Generals or judges or Mr Suthep or southern followers can do about that. The problem that you the conservatives in this country face is that Thaksin started an unstoppable process: he let the genie of democracy and empowerment out of the bottle. As a result, the future direction of Thailand is certainly with the people of the N/NE because they now have the confidence they need and they have the numbers on their side, and so they are going to finish the job of democratisation that Thaksin started.

Yes, "one man one vote" will determine the future of Thailand. Scary, eh?

I don't understand the rest of your post about "woman are excluded" "box full of crisp notes" etc. Clearly votes have been bought on both sides, but it has not materially affected elections according to the studies I have seen.

So, you take my post and from it you determine:

1. I an saying that N/NE people are stupid

2. I don't think that the N/NE people deserve to vote

3. I am a a privileged farang

My family are from the NE and I most certainly do not think that they are stupid - poorly educated yes, but not stupid.

I think that every voter has the right to vote - but not to sell it (for what effectively amounts to less than 1B a day per administartion)

The privileged farang thing is just nonsense - so I shall ignore it

Now, when the voters have finished voting and we are left with a government that has a majority around the size of the rice farmers (who coincidentally have been promised that they will be paid massively over the market price for their goods) then you have a flawed democracy. A bought democracy. Same with the minimum wage and the graduates salary (that withered on the vine).

Nevertheless that democracy was respected. For 2.5 years.

Then the government thought that it was god and could do whatever it liked. Free Thaksin? No problem. Seize the upper house through judicial coup? No problem. Cheat with different versions of legislation? No problem. Cheat on the house votes? No problem. Defy the constitiution court and refuse to accept it's jurisdiction? No problem.

So you see, the democracy that the PTP was given was not respected - they did not respect the votes of the people.

The way to better democracy is more and better democracy not less democracy or NO democracy.

It doesn't cut it to have a feudal council for Thailand, a council that is still anonymous, still unaccountable, still has a secret agenda and still would rule absolutely for a vaguely defined period into the future.

Feudalism in the present era is fascism by any name.

Fascist Council for instance.

A Fascist Council conjured up by a raging insurrectionist and his marching cronies, all of whom are charged under the law with insurrection and treason.

Edited January 17, 2014 by Publicus