More Vet's Feelings About Kerry

[Ulysses G.]

Vietnam Vet to Kerry: Talk to the Wall

February 17, 2004

Listen to the call in the audio link below from William, who was an 18-year-old Marine in Vietnam. He said of John Kerry: "Once you throw your medals over the wall, they're gone. You can't take them back. Once you leave Vietnam and know your fellow officers are on the ground over there still trying to get through the day, and come back and call them 'baby killers' and 'rapists,' you are abandoning your troops. You are no longer part of us."

William found the silence of the VFW, American Legion and his fellow veterans infuriating. Poignantly, he said of John F. Kerry, "He might as well stand before the wall in Washington, look at the 58,000 names on that wall and tell those families that we're sorry, you lost your loved one but they were nothing but a killer and a murderer and a rapist and a baby killer, and let that be your platform.... Once you go and sit with Jane Fonda, I don't care where you are in the stands, if you don't have a protest sign against her, you're with her and you're spitting in the face of the veterans."

I encouraged William to give this time to play out, because it's only February. Vietnam was the turning point for the whole 60s generation and the Democrat Party. It marked the moment when they ceased being the party of John F. Kennedy and become the party of ultra-liberal, international socialists. All of a sudden, the same generation that spent 30 years attacking Vietnam has turned 180-degrees to claim that it was the greatest heroic war ever.

The negative military reaction to Kerry won't be kept out of the press forever. What William said about the names on the Vietnam wall actually sent a chill up my spine, folks. When I told him this, he said, "It's the way I feel. I look at that wall, and there's 58,000 people that their lives were cut short." Yet to William Kerry has put a sign up on that wall saying, "These are baby killers and murderers of innocent civilians".

[sbk]

If you are a vet perhaps you can answer a question that has always bothered me, Why the silence from vets about GW Bush's less than sterling record?

Family influence was used to not only keep Bush Jr out of Vietnam but to also cover up the fact that he never even finished his tour of duty in the Air natl Guard.

Which is worse? Personally, I find the cowardice of a rich man's son more appalling than Kerry standing up for something he obviously felt very deeply about. At least Kerry was no coward.

[Ulysses G.]

I don't think that a coward could be a fighter pilot. The training and flying would weed them out. Can you imagine landing a jet on the deck of an Aircraft Carrier in the middle of the ocean? They say that it looks the size of a postage stamp.

It is my belief that most vets don't expect a man to act like John Wayne in one of his movies, but they expect a soldier to do his job, whatever that may be. Most military personnel will take whatever breaks that they can get.

Going into the National Guard is considered to be a legitimate type of alternate duty, and sliding out of a few non-essential duties, if one can get away with it, is not greatly looked down upon.

I think that most soldiers would not blame George W. Bush for doing things that they might have done, if they had been in his place.

[Jeepz]

Ulysses G~

Uhmm, I don't think GWB was a Navy fighter pilot. Air Force fighter pilots are allowed more room to land. I think it's in their contract. National Guard pilots are allowed to use anything paved, I'm told. Mall parking lots, Interstates, pretty much anything.

Still, your point is valid. Even the National Guard and/or Air Force doesn't hand multimillion dollar fighters over to the faint hearted. Not for long anyway. I thought it was more a matter that he (or his staff) made statements or published reports that he served his full time as an F102 pilot when he only pulled two or so years of six that he was obligated for. He missed some thirty months of flight duty that he said he would perform. That's a tad more than missing some non-essential duties.

I do understand that ducking boring chores is an old and honorable tradition in almost all services, at least occasionally. And for Joe Blow, it's not really a big deal. But when you decide you are going to run for (and be) President of the United States of America, guess what? You get to answer some pretty uncomfortable questions.

Now don't get me wrong. I respect GWB doing *anything* in terms of military service just a whole heck of a bunch more than I did Clinton's on/off brush with the military. "Please may I be a weekend warrior. Oh, wait, I think I'll go to England and get a school deferment instead." I'm sorry, that just reeked and I've never thought much of him for it.

Jeepz

[Ulysses G.]

Jeepz

I was trying to answer sbk's question about why vet's take it easy on GWB about his military service. I used a lot of, "it is my belief, I think"s, because I don't want to attempt to speak for all vets. I was just giving my opinion about their thoughts.

About his time as a pilot, there have been no valid reports, that I have seen, that seemed to believe that he had missed 4 years of his tour of duty. I believe that he certainly did some "skating", but not 2/3s of his tour of duty.

Concerning his supposed cowardice, I was a swimmer from a young age and a lifeguard for many years, but I would have been very hesitent to under-go training like this during my military service:

Officials also told CNN that in preparation for the flight, Bush underwent water survival training, which involves sitting in a simulated cockpit that fills up with water, then spins around, while the person inside has to escape and come up for air. To pilots, the training is known as "panic in a can."

Never mind as a 57 year old man!

[Axel]

Who serves his country deserves respect. Wether they join voluntarily or be drafted, they do what the country expects of them.

If they are partaking in any conflict, I believe nobody is really happy to do it, but they do a professional job and follow their training and experience.

From the lowest private to the highest officer they follow orders from above.

It is the job of the commander in charge to implement the right enthusiasm, to make every member of the forces convinced that they are doing the right thing not only doing what they have been trained for.

The biggest problem for any nation will come up once the government itself changes or changes its opinion. Robert S. Mc Namara, presented an account and analysis of the Vietnam War that dwelt heavily on the mistakes to which he was a prime party, as Secretary of Defence and conveyed his strong sense of guilt and regret.

Now how does any Veteran feel, who was in that war, doing the duty, losing friends and than hearing it was all a mistake.

OTH, people become wiser and do see the light. When they then come out and say, 'what we are doing is wrong', deserves respect.

As an outsider, I never understood the necessity for that Vietnam-war. Less so, when in '75 I was on Guam and watched 'poor refugees' arriving just before the fall of Saigon, with lots and lots of 'luggage' checking into 5-star hotels while the GI's were still fighting and dying for their freedom.

No pros or cons on Kerry, neither on Bush, just my thought. Avoid any military action by all means unless later on you wish to apologize to the survivors and have to admit that the victims died for nothing or for a cause that's meanwhile changed.

[Thaiquila]

This obsession with president's military record is a very narrow perspective.

What matters now is Bushs' record in office as president as opposed to Kerry's record in office as senator. Which person do Americans think will do a better job, domestically and internationally.

Imagine George W. Bush, with his background, in business, politics, and the military, if his father had not been a president. What kind of career do you think he would have had? Then consider John Kerry, a man of subtance and intellect, who did not rely on nepotism. Sometimes, merit wins the day.

[Boon Mee]

That's right. Kerry's record as a senator is the most liberal of any of the 100 senators in congress. He is the untimate opportunist. A man of substance & intellect? Doubt it. If he were president, taxes would go back up & national security would suffer. When Osama is captured, he'd send over Johnny Cochoran(sp) of OJ Simpson fame to defend him!

As Ulysses G. said, the majority of Vietnam Vets don't give a flying hoot if GWB chose the National Guard vs. actually going over there. Kerry only went over for four months and collected some very suspect medals - he's a sham.

SBK - I'm a vet and along with 99% of the guys in the VFW Club I belong to, the deal with Bush choosing to do his time as he did is a non-issue. Also, those 99%, come November, won't be voting for the Ketchup King - I guarantee it...

Boon Mee

[Ulysses TG]

Officials also told CNN that in preparation for the flight, Bush underwent water survival training, which involves sitting in a simulated cockpit that fills up with water, then spins around, while the person inside has to escape and come up for air. To pilots, the training is known as "panic in a can."

Never mind as a 57 year old man!

well that is called, "basic" offshore survival, anyone who works offshore(oil/gas) or in parts of the military, go through the same thing - its not panic in a can - follow the bubbles and you live - monkeys have passed the test!

[Boon Mee]

You got that right, Ulysses G. - I have to do it once a year and like our cousins say in the UK - it's a piece of piss...

[Ulysses TG]

You got that right, Ulysses G. - I have to do it once a year and like our cousins say in the UK - it's a piece of piss...

do I need say more?, he thought I was Georgie and actually told the truth - I wonder if he will edit it, if he realises he squashed Dr Evils "superman" remarks about Bush.

This is the kind of people you are dealing with here = septic idiots!

[Jeepz]

Ulysses TG~

Gee (or rather Tee Gee), talk about lame. I don't agree with Boon Mee about everything, but I respect him. However, grabbing a nick almost identical to another users in order to do a bit of bait and switch (or is that actually a "straw man" deceit?) is really sad. If that is your demonstration for flushing out septic idiots, I think you have succeeded, but the light isn't shining on Boon Mee.

Ulysses G~

As you were answering sbk, I was just responding to my take on your reply. Please note I did mention that the services don't hand over multimillion dollar fighters to the faint hearted. Perhaps a bit obscure, but my intent was to agree with you that GWB is not a coward.

Axel~

Yeah, some of them came out with a lot of bucks. Some of them came out with the shirts on their backs. I do agree with you about that "taking orders" thing.

Boon Me~

Ultimately the military service issue is a minor one. He's had time in office to judge him by, which is a much more important indicator to me. But even if an issue is minor, doesn't mean we can't comment on it. And someone else (like you) to keep it in perspective.

Regarding Kerry, time will tell. I've heard many vets being critical of him. I've heard others less so. I suspect it has some to do with individual political leanings (Demo vs Republican). He needs to answer the hard questions. That is exactly what the primary and national elections are about.

And you are right, he's evaluated as the most liberal senator by many. I somehow doubt that he's be sending Johnny Cochran over to defend Osama. But who knows.

Demo's traditionally tax and spend. However, lately the Repub's may not tax, but they are spending like mad. And maybe Regan got away with it, but deficits do matter to me if not to them. Which leaves me feeling like a fat kid in a hail storm. Doesn't look like much shelter regardless which way I go.

Jeepz

[sbk]

If GWB's record is a non-issue why is Kerry's then an issue? Why was Clinton's? Sorry to sound dense here guys, but I fail to see how it can apply to one person but not to all. It seems to me to be hypocritical to accept Bush's "war record" simply because you like the man's policies. And to thrash Kerry's because you don't like his.

As for the Democrat "tax and spend" issue, well, perhaps you ought to re-examine recent history. Under Reagan and Bush the US went from the largest creditor nation in the world to the largest debtor nation. Perhaps you fail to recall one of the reasons Bush was not re-elected was because although he promised no new taxes he then implemented new taxes. Under Clinton the national deficit was eliminated and the debt was being brought down. Under GWB we have set records in spending. And our debt now breaks records again.

[Jeepz]

sbk~

I would suppose that Kerry's record is an issue because he wants to be president. George W's is less so because he already is president. I think (my lonely little opinion) is that GWB's record, while interesting, is not of great consequence, since we have four years of his actual performance to judge him by, good or bad, depending on your personal view.

Kerry is just getting the "national" spotlight since it's his first run at an office that requires a national vote. What he did in Vietnam, what he did after returning from Vietnam, and what he's been up to in the interim are all viable points of interest.

So the two's service records are not, in fact, equivalent issues. At least to me. And to a number of others. That doesn't mean I'm not at all interested in GWB's time as National Guard pilot. But I already have a fairly concrete view about him in terms of holding the position of Commander in Chief.

You might feel (and I do not for one moment want to usurp your right to express exactly what you do feel) that GWB's service record is indicative of his overall character. Or perhaps his lack of fulfillment (if true) a light on some residual hypocrisy. I'm just guessing here.

But for many non-aligned voters, we are looking at one guy that has the job and another one that wants it. We have a more informed pov about the one that has it because we've watched him. We may still have questions, and we may or may not like what he has done. But for many Kerry, and everything about Kerry, is relative new and has to be scrutinized.

Did he serve, how did he do? If he threw his medals back, just how far did they go? Does he put the toilet paper on overshot or undershot? Was he friendly with Jane Fonda during the protests? Was it because he agreed with her or because she wasn't wearing a bra that day?

Back to you sbk.

Jeepz

[Boon Mee]

If GWB's record is a non-issue why is Kerry's then an issue? Why was Clinton's? Sorry to sound dense here guys, but I fail to see how it can apply to one person but not to all. It seems to me to be hypocritical to accept Bush's "war record" simply because you like the man's policies. And to thrash Kerry's because you don't like his.

.

sbk,

The reason that Kerry's war record is an issue and GWBs should not be is Kerry is puffing up his chest about what a war hero he was and the record shows differently. If you go back to one of my earlier posts in another thread you'll read how Kerry was only "In-Country" four months and in those four months managed to get himself awarded 3, count 'em, 3 Purple Hearts! He used those Purple Hearts to wangle himself outa Vietnam and scuttle back to the states to join the Jane Fonda wing of Vietnam Vets against the war. Check it out...

Boon Mee

[PlanetMan]

As for the Democrat "tax and spend" issue, well, perhaps you ought to re-examine recent history. Under Reagan and Bush the US went from the largest creditor nation in the world to the largest debtor nation. Perhaps you fail to recall one of the reasons Bush was not re-elected was because although he promised no new taxes he then implemented new taxes. Under Clinton the national deficit was eliminated and the debt was being brought down. Under GWB we have set records in spending. And our debt now breaks records again.

SBK,

Hope this is not inescapably flame-bait, but I would like to point out that many historians now accept that Reagan's deficit was a successful strategic gambit specifically intended to limit Congress' ability to spend money. Arguably it was by limiting the growth in government spending, combined with large tax cuts, that Reagan can claim some measure of credit for the booming economy Clinton inherited. Credit for much of the rest of the 90's boom belongs to Greenspan and maybe a bit to Rubin. Oh, and Marc Andreeson ;-) Clinton was off dating the volunteer staff.

Now if one were to point out that GWB is no Reagan, you'd get no argument from me ;-)

Cheers

[Boon Mee]

No argument here, PlanetMan. My point was not as well elucidated as yours re. high deficits/low taxes. Granted, GWB is no Reagan.

If you're going to credit Marc A., credit to Bill Gates too?

[Boon Mee]

This is the kind of people you are dealing with here = septic idiots!

From the Gent posing as UTG

To: "The Gent"

Your health problems are most assuredly due to the unresolved hatred of Americans you exhibit. I am 57 years young and in top health (touch wood) but the way you're going, Gent, you ain't gonna see 50!

[piet pompies]

Pardon my ignorance. Is the "Bear pit" only related to US politics? What about Russia--Chechnya, Europe?

Maybe consider the qualities of a US President which could relate to the rest of the world . Irag has shown the only superpower still needs nations other than the "coalition".

Haiti? did the US or France influence Aristide to leave?

How does all this relate to THAIVISA ? Perahps restict anything which does not have direct relevance to Thailand.

[Thaiquila]

Doesn't relate to Thailand. So I guess if the admins want to kill it, they will. Otherwise, it goes on. TITV

Anyway, my take is the folks grousing about Kerry's military record are the same Clinton phobic fanatics that would never vote for any democrat even to save their sick mother. So who cares what they think? They are irrelevant to gaining the victory that is at hand for Kerry. The race will be won with the votes of middle of the roaders, independents, soccer moms, and an energenized democratic party base.

Also, mark my words. The Kerry Nam record will NOT be a major issue in this campaign. It is not on Carl Rove's agenda. Why? Because if they let loose on attacking Kerry's military record, it is green light city for the democrats to let loose on Bush's obvious cowardice and the possibility he was AWOL. They will leave it alone. Too dangerous for them.

[Axel]

Pardon my ignorance. Is the "Bear pit" only related to US politics? What about Russia--Chechnya, Europe?

Maybe consider the qualities of a US President which could relate to the rest of the world . Irag has shown the only superpower still needs nations other than the "coalition".

Haiti? did the US or France influence Aristide to leave?

How does all this relate to THAIVISA ? Perahps restict anything which does not have direct relevance to Thailand.

Post about whatever you feel. People who live in Thailand want to hear about the outside world.

Aristide? I believe he wanted to stay, but somebody pushed him out. France?

USA? In any case with help of the UN, something new here.

[Membrane]

Aristide? I believe he wanted to stay, but somebody pushed him out. France? USA?

Hey, I got an interesting theory on this: maybe it was the Haitian rebels!

[Axel]

Aristide? I believe he wanted to stay, but somebody pushed him out. France? USA?

Hey, I got an interesting theory on this: maybe it was the Haitian rebels!

No, Membrane, they have been too weak. You did not quote one sentence:

"In any case with help of the UN, something new here."

I think it was Anand.

[Boon Mee]

Well, American liberals had a lot riding on Aristide. They saw him as the antidote to Haiti's past. He was a friend of Slick Willy & Charlie Rangel the Democratic congressman from New York. They loved his rhetoric and the promises he was going to keep to help the poor & oppressed but instead, the place turned into a haven for drug-dealers & money laundering. Good riddance to him...

[sbk]

Yes, but my point on the whole 'tax and spend' accusation continually thrown at dems is not if the success of it but the whole implication behind it, ie: republicans won't spend your hard-earned cash. Regardless of whether or not you think Reagan's policies were a success (the major slump during the first Bush's term might be indicative of something?) the fact is conservatives will always bring up the 'tax and spend' accusation without pointing to the fact that 1)it can be successful and that 2) they are the major spenders!

And I guess the point about GWB's military record being a non-issue, interestingly enough, it was also a non-issue when he was an unknown quantity running for president 4 years ago. Why did noone delve into this issue then? Sorry, still smacks of hypocrisy. What applies to one, should apply to all.

[mouse]

I say that we abolish politics altogether and thereby remove all the worlds politicians. With the billions saved from the salaries of the former PM's, President, Senator and other despots, the world over, every person in the world would have a computer and Broadband connection provided to them and they in turn would do their patriotic duty and vote on every issue by giving two hours of their time weekly. Subsequently there would be more work in the IT sector. Now there is an idea!! At the same time we would get rid of the idiots that many of us complain about.

[adjan jb]

I say that we abolish politics altogether and thereby remove all the worlds politicians. With the billions saved from the salaries of the former PM's, President, Senator and other despots, the world over, every person in the world would have a computer and Broadband connection provided to them and they in turn would do their patriotic duty and vote on every issue by giving two hours of their time weekly. Subsequently there would be more work in the IT sector. Now there is an idea!! At the same time we would get rid of the idiots that many of us complain about.

You got it right.

What we need is a GENOCIDE.

[PlanetMan]

You got it right.

What we need is a GENOCIDE.

Golly, gee. Genocide. Now there's a program (pogrom?) right thinking people everywhere could get behind.

Reality is for people who can't handle drugs.

Cheers

[Boon Mee]

But Drugs are for sick people...