Golden Triangle Crossing To Laos

[DonaldBattles]

Made my first crossing here yesterday. Big surprise, I entered China instead of Laos. The Special Economic Zone is all Chinese. Lao Beer and Budweiser made in China. The Lao Beer made in China is not very good. Everything you see is made in China and there are few Lao speaking people around. There is no public transportation in this area.

I had to rent a casino car for a small tour of the area. I noticed a few farangs but mostly all Chinese. One visit to little China is enough for me.

[mike2011]

Any more details? Can you move on further inland? Food etc.? Not much on the web at least not by people who know Thailand and have local knowledge.

[martijn12345]

Most tourist not cross but go another 2 km further, there is a border market with kind of the same stuff as in Mae Sai. If I am not mistaken this is all actually a sort of island in the Mekong and not Lao mainland. Indeed lots of Chinese activities going on over there. I agree it's not really worth a visit, though I have never been to the casino there...

[Bigfarang1948]

Most tourist not cross but go another 2 km further, there is a border market with kind of the same stuff as in Mae Sai. If I am not mistaken this is all actually a sort of island in the Mekong and not Lao mainland. Indeed lots of Chinese activities going on over there. I agree it's not really worth a visit, though I have never been to the casino there...

I have crossed into Laos just a couple of times from Nong Khai. The big sign in English near the duty freee shoph says something to the effect , if you gamble in this casino you coulld be dead. I don't think they put that sign up just for giggles to see Farangs faces when they read it. I steer well clear of the casino and so far I have resisted the temptation to make a boat ride across the Mekong into Laos, have a beer, and come back; illegally of course

[DonaldBattles]

The Chinese are now building a big airport in their Special Economic Zone. They have just started on their first phase of the manufacturing plants. It is expected that 1 million Chinese will be moved and working in these plants. Along with all of the trucks coming through Chiang Kong they will send these goods to Laem Chabang for shipment overseas.

I figure that northern Laos is now controlled by the Chinese. Will they try to take Chiang Rai?

[sceadugenga]

The yaun is certainly a weapon to be wary of.

[harrry]

The Chinese are now building a big airport in their Special Economic Zone. They have just started on their first phase of the manufacturing plants. It is expected that 1 million Chinese will be moved and working in these plants. Along with all of the trucks coming through Chiang Kong they will send these goods to Laem Chabang for shipment overseas.

I figure that northern Laos is now controlled by the Chinese. Will they try to take Chiang Rai?

We might get that railway quicker if they did.

[bangon04]

The yaun is certainly a weapon to be wary of.

Do you mean the "yawn" or the Yuan (RMB)?

Either would be a deep and cryptic comment on the modern world....

[Baan Buakao]

AFAIK you can't enter Laos from there. The Chinese have gained control of about 30 sq km and you can cross from Chiang Saen similarly to Mae Sai but not clear immigration. They have been there about 5 years now. They have extensive interests througout Laos.

Edited January 20, 2014 by Baan Buakao

[thailandbeachisland]

Where exactly ?

[sceadugenga]

The yaun is certainly a weapon to be wary of.

Do you mean the "yawn" or the Yuan (RMB)?

Either would be a deep and cryptic comment on the modern world....

I know how to spell Yaun but can see what you mean about the yawn.

I consider the Chinese to be already well established in Thailand anyway.

[Baan Buakao]

Where exactly what?

[DonaldBattles]

Immigration on the Lao side at the Golden Triangle is a clean, modern air conditioned facility. The casino car usually is there to collect you. On the Thai side it is 2 little outdoor temporary looking buildings. I noticed that the Thai immigration facility at the golden Buddha had been moved south 1 km.

[mike2011]

As I understand you there is nothing to see other than industrial establishments and an airport under construction plus a casino. Obviously not a relaxed place - I assume.

Anything worthwhile seeing or doing there for the non-gambling crowd?

[DonaldBattles]

I think many people do not understand the implications of what the Chinese are doing in Northern Lao as it most likely will spill over to Chiang Rai with 1 million Chinese.

The casino is only one of the many Chinese attractions. They have created a Chinatown that is large. They have a lot of bars and restaurants in the the area. They have built a long promenade along the river where they have installed many km of river retaining wall.

If you are interested in Lao culture do not go here because it is 30 square km of Chinese hotels, bars, gambling casinos and souvenir shops. Believe me it is all Chinese. No shop houses and only modern buildings with wide streets. There are no motorcycle taxis or Tuk-Tuks. This is the previews of coming attraction of controlling all of Northern Laos with a big spill over to Chiang Rai. Thai Immigration consist of 2 people so how will you keep 1 million out along with 2 million of their relatives?

[boomerangutang]

The Chinese are now building a big airport in their Special Economic Zone. They have just started on their first phase of the manufacturing plants. It is expected that 1 million Chinese will be moved and working in these plants. Along with all of the trucks coming through Chiang Kong they will send these goods to Laem Chabang for shipment overseas.

I figure that northern Laos is now controlled by the Chinese. Will they try to take Chiang Rai?

The Chinese want to eventurally control all of SE Asia. The Shinawatres are making their control of Thailand easier, by fast-tracking the 2.2 trillion baht speedo train project.

[DonaldBattles]

It looks like The Peoples Republic of Up Country will give control again to Thaksin for the 6th time. Being Chinese-Thai, Thaksin is expected to have more cooperation with the Chinese. Crime and corruption along the Mekong River in Chiang Rai will be a big concern. Unfortunately, the other voters have no choice. The house of cards may never fall.

[Tomtomtom69]

OP I didn't know that any Lao Beer was made in China, I suspect what you found was actually Beer Lao made in Laos but exported to China and then re-imported to Laos and thus having a Chinese label. As I can read Chinese, I recall Beer Lao sold in China has a label in Chinese and is imported and distributed through Jinghong in southern Yunnan province. Anyway, I digress.

[Tomtomtom69]

I think many people do not understand the implications of what the Chinese are doing in Northern Lao as it most likely will spill over to Chiang Rai with 1 million Chinese.

The casino is only one of the many Chinese attractions. They have created a Chinatown that is large. They have a lot of bars and restaurants in the the area. They have built a long promenade along the river where they have installed many km of river retaining wall.

If you are interested in Lao culture do not go here because it is 30 square km of Chinese hotels, bars, gambling casinos and souvenir shops. Believe me it is all Chinese. No shop houses and only modern buildings with wide streets. There are no motorcycle taxis or Tuk-Tuks. This is the previews of coming attraction of controlling all of Northern Laos with a big spill over to Chiang Rai. Thai Immigration consist of 2 people so how will you keep 1 million out along with 2 million of their relatives?

Somehow I think the Chinese would rather be in Chiang Rai (or in Thailand for that matter) than in underdeveloped and poor Laos. But the issue is that unlike in years gone past, foreigners, irrespective of where they are from can't just flood into Thailand anymore and expect to be afforded the same rights as Thais - whilst the Chinese can visit Thailand and even bring their cars along over the bridge (whether they are Lao or Chinese registered) for temporary periods, they'll simply be temporary visitors and will be expected to leave at the end of their visits. The process of assimilation takes years so while I agree that somehow the Chinese in northern Laos will impact life in Chiang Rai, the Thai government has the power to decide how it will cope with these visitors and will likely treat them as just that - as visitors. As visitors their presence will be very much appreciated on the Thai side - up to a point. They'll be good spenders because despite what the Chinese may have built on the Lao side in their "mini-China", the shopping, dining, facilities (like schools, hospitals, universities, airports, other transport links and even recreational facilities like golf courses) are far superior just in Chiang Rai alone owing to the obvious fact that Thailand is a much more developed country than Laos is.

Meanwhile on the Lao side, the very much obliging Lao government lets the Chinese create a mini version of China in their territory, just a stone's throw from Thailand and thus they don't need to follow Lao labour laws regarding foreigner/local worker ratios (or even if they did, the Chinese would probably just pay off the Lao authorities to look the other way), investment restrictions, even land ownership (although in Laos it's technically a long-term lease, not ownership anyway, even for locals). At least this is what it seems - I have been to northern Laos numerous times and I feel it's kinda weird, especially in this part of the world that a local (in this case Lao) finds they can't use their own language or deal with their own people in various parts of their own country. It must feel like an invasion to them and yet there isn't much anyone is doing to stop this. However, I feel that it's precisely because the Lao government is so obliging - it wants the Chinese to come, at least in the name of development and progress. Any consequences that may be experienced as a result obviously haven't been carefully thought through yet.

Edited January 27, 2014 by Tomtomtom69

[Tomtomtom69]

The Chinese are now building a big airport in their Special Economic Zone. They have just started on their first phase of the manufacturing plants. It is expected that 1 million Chinese will be moved and working in these plants. Along with all of the trucks coming through Chiang Kong they will send these goods to Laem Chabang for shipment overseas.

I figure that northern Laos is now controlled by the Chinese. Will they try to take Chiang Rai?

That's a good question but I believe government to government co-operation is at the heart of this issue. The Chinese are only able to control much of northern Laos due to the obliging nature of the Lao government. Vietnam for it's part doesn't want the Chinese and even next to the Chinese border in Lao Cai, you could be forgiven for thinking that China was half a world away as there's little evidence of Chinese writing on signs etc. and business is dominated by locals, as it should be. Even local Chinese speakers, although they can be found due to reasons of border trade, are not any more numerous than English speakers as the city sees hundreds of foreign visitors daily, mainly heading up to Sapa from Hanoi or in reverse (only a small fraction are heading to/from China).

Small, sparsely populated and landlocked Laos is unfortunately not in the same position of power that Vietnam is and of course, unlike Vietnam which is very much intent on keeping the integrity of it's economy and social and territorial integrity irrespective of the consequences this may entail, in my opinion Laos at this point just sees big green dollar signs, or in this case, big red Mao bills (Yuan).

Thailand has less to fear than Vietnam does but is also fiercely protective of it's economy and territorial integrity not to mention social impacts. I don't think the Thais would easily bend existing restrictions on investment, labour laws, land ownership etc. that currently favour locals (like the 4-1 local-foreigner worker ratio) just because the Chinese are coming - in fact, that would be a good reason to tighten up such restrictions and could partly explain the reason why they exist in the first place.

Speaking of factories in the Golden Triangle Zone though, I wonder what the Chinese want to set up in these factories? So far I have never heard of any grand scale plan to develop Laos into a minor manufacturing hub. Perhaps logistics and distribution centers, and/or factories that produce simple, labour intensive goods that are becoming too expensive to produce in China may be manufactured? I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

Edited January 27, 2014 by Tomtomtom69

[Tomtomtom69]

Another few things worth mentioning about this casino, some of which I have heard and others substantiated through various news reports:

The casino is called "Kings Roman" I think and is located in a Lao village called Tonpheung

Apparently there is a new road from the main Huay Xai-Luang Nam Tha highway with a trilingual sign in Lao, English and Chinese directing visitors to the Golden Triangle Special Economic Zone, which includes the casino (this is assuming you are already in Laos or have a vehicle, in which case you have to cross the 4th Mekong bridge from Thailand to get there first)

The casino apparently employs around 60% Chinese and the rest are a mix of Thais, Lao and Burmese - apparently the Chinese owner plans to further localize the workforce and employ fewer Chinese over time and is thus somewhat more sensitive to cultural impacts than so many other Chinese businesses in Laos, particularly northern Laos

This casino essentially replaces the previous casino zone located in Boten, just opposite the Chinese border town of Mohan - the latter casino zone was shut down by the Chinese and Lao governments a couple of years back in response to murders, widespread corruption, prostitution and other rampant crime; I've been there and it's a ghost town these days, with much of the infrastructure slowly being consumed by the jungle, it seems. A Chinese friend of mine was OK with staying there last year as the next day we had a shipment of goods to ship across the border that he would take care of but I refused to stay there myself - scary as there were no other visitors, no internet access, no decent food and not even that cheap (about 120 Yuan a night per room at one of the abandoned casinos) so I headed back to Luang Nam Tha and eventually stayed overnight in Udomxai as I promised to drive a friend there and despite the distance I can say I still made a good decision!

I wonder if the new casino zone won't face similar problems to the old one.

Edited January 27, 2014 by Tomtomtom69

[boomerangutang]

I agree with much of tomtomtom69's ideas about China's influence in SE Asia. However, I differ somewhat on how the Chinese relate to Thailand. For most of the past 10 years (and longer) Thailand has had Chinese-Thai political leaders. Most big businesses in Thailand are controlled by Chinese-Thais. Chinese have been immigrating successfully to Thailand for a long time, and are continuing to do so. The laws which Thailand puts forth to try and keep foreigners at arm's length, are aimed at farang (and perhaps to non-chinese Asians), but not at Chinese. I believe it's relatively easy for a Chinese person to gain Thai citizenship. I knew a Chinese laborer who was squatting in a bamboo & thatch hut, and making Bt.150/day (12 years ago) who gained Thai citizenship in 8 years. If a man at the bottom rungs of the economic/social ladder can do that, imagine how much easier it is for Chinese with money and status.

There are groups of Chinese-Thai in Thailand who assist their Chinese brethren in gaining citizenship and getting loans to start businesses. They're clandestine, as you would expect. I wouldn't be surprised if such groups exist in every city in Thailand.

[Tomtomtom69]

I agree with much of tomtomtom69's ideas about China's influence in SE Asia. However, I differ somewhat on how the Chinese relate to Thailand. For most of the past 10 years (and longer) Thailand has had Chinese-Thai political leaders. Most big businesses in Thailand are controlled by Chinese-Thais. Chinese have been immigrating successfully to Thailand for a long time, and are continuing to do so. The laws which Thailand puts forth to try and keep foreigners at arm's length, are aimed at farang (and perhaps to non-chinese Asians), but not at Chinese. I believe it's relatively easy for a Chinese person to gain Thai citizenship. I knew a Chinese laborer who was squatting in a bamboo & thatch hut, and making Bt.150/day (12 years ago) who gained Thai citizenship in 8 years. If a man at the bottom rungs of the economic/social ladder can do that, imagine how much easier it is for Chinese with money and status.

There are groups of Chinese-Thai in Thailand who assist their Chinese brethren in gaining citizenship and getting loans to start businesses. They're clandestine, as you would expect. I wouldn't be surprised if such groups exist in every city in Thailand.

I appreciate your comment but let me just add a few thoughts of my own. Why would Thailand fear farang or other Asian foreigners (in particular the former, which are only present in relatively small numbers) when the Chinese could potentially come in their hundreds of thousands or even millions? I understand that the Chinese have been coming to Thailand for a long time, but these days Thailand does treat all foreigners the same as I have never seen a clause that allows for special privileges for Chinese, which would be strange if it there were any (it could even be said that Burmese, Lao and Cambodians are the only ones treated differently to everyone else due to them being allowed to work in menial labor although technically that excludes them from Thai citizenship)...about the Chinese laborer who got Thai citizenship, perhaps that occurred due to some kind of special connections because in general one must earn a fair bit more money in order to gain Thai citizenship (or perhaps the laborer also has a Thai wife). Also, I have read that there are at least a quarter of a million Chinese living in Thailand (mostly for decades) who still don't have citizenship.

In terms of Thai-Chinese businesses and their success, this is true but for the most part Thai-Chinese view themselves as entirely Thai and thus don't share any connections with their ancestral homeland. Indeed, talking to my many Thai-Chinese friends few, if any can name which part of China their ancestors came from, few even care and even fewer can speak any Chinese (except those picking it up for new business opportunities etc. but there are as many non-Chinese Thais doing the same these days). There is thus definitely a distinction between Thai-Chinese and their modern Chinese counterparts.

[boomerangutang]

I also, haven't seen a clause in Thai Immigration laws which fast-tracks Chinese gaining Thai citizenship. But I doubt either of us has read the relevant manifesto. Many things happen outside the restrictions of laws. There are even farang in Thailand who keep residing here illegally. Tomtom mentioned "Also, I have read that there are at least a quarter of a million Chinese living in Thailand (mostly for decades) who still don't have citizenship."

That number could be several times that much. And what are their legal status'? They're tolerated in Thailand because {A} they look similar to Thai, and therefore blend in {B} They lay low {C} they eventually get assimilated, get an ID card, and who's going to make a fuss about it? Did the Shinawatres' fore-bearers from China have to jump through hoops to gain Thai citizenship? They probably did what millions of other Chinese (and Lao and Burmese) immigrants did; They came to Thailand (illegally or legally), they stayed, they got work and made families, and so on. They certainly didn't have to comply with regulations as farang did, and do. If someone did some deep research, they might find that an average of 1,000 semi-legal Chinese gain Thai citizenship every day - mainly by assimilation.

It's not much different than Mexicans and other Latin Americans assimilating to the US and eventually getting Green Cards. The difference is, in the US, there's more oversight. In Thailand, it's more like osmosis. How many times have you heard of a Chinese person being deported from Thailand (or even getting in trouble with Imm. Dept.) - for any reason? Never.

[Tomtomtom69]

I also, haven't seen a clause in Thai Immigration laws which fast-tracks Chinese gaining Thai citizenship. But I doubt either of us has read the relevant manifesto. Many things happen outside the restrictions of laws. There are even farang in Thailand who keep residing here illegally. Tomtom mentioned "Also, I have read that there are at least a quarter of a million Chinese living in Thailand (mostly for decades) who still don't have citizenship."

That number could be several times that much. And what are their legal status'? They're tolerated in Thailand because {A} they look similar to Thai, and therefore blend in {B} They lay low {C} they eventually get assimilated, get an ID card, and who's going to make a fuss about it? Did the Shinawatres' fore-bearers from China have to jump through hoops to gain Thai citizenship? They probably did what millions of other Chinese (and Lao and Burmese) immigrants did; They came to Thailand (illegally or legally), they stayed, they got work and made families, and so on. They certainly didn't have to comply with regulations as farang did, and do. If someone did some deep research, they might find that an average of 1,000 semi-legal Chinese gain Thai citizenship every day - mainly by assimilation.

It's not much different than Mexicans and other Latin Americans assimilating to the US and eventually getting Green Cards. The difference is, in the US, there's more oversight. In Thailand, it's more like osmosis. How many times have you heard of a Chinese person being deported from Thailand (or even getting in trouble with Imm. Dept.) - for any reason? Never.

Some good points but I suspect that in the past (before around 1960 or 1970 or something) virtually anyone could become a Thai citizen just by living here for a while, especially Chinese immigrants - these days things are a little different (or supposed to be). I think that in most countries if someone has been in a country for years, perhaps decades without any way of proving whether they are legal or not (particularly if they arrived during a time of war and upheaval, in this case perhaps after the creation of the People's Republic or the cultural revolution), most of the time the authorities of the country concerned don't kick out these immigrants for humanitarian reasons particularly since there is not much way of tracking down documentation that proves their origin; they have established themselves in that country and generally remained low-key and law abiding; and are often older and without any family, friends or other support networks to go back to in their ancestral homelands. I suspect these hundreds of thousands of ethnic Chinese without Thai citizenship or even PR fall into the category mentioned above.

I have certainly heard of Chinese getting in trouble with immigration here and being arrested for crimes, has happened many times - also, the Chinese are only eligible for a 15-day visa on arrival to Thailand, which they aren't even allowed to avail themselves of if they arrive directly from mainland China (this is probably a Chinese government ruling overriding Thai laws). Similarly, Thai tourist visas for Chinese, although not particularly hard to obtain, are generally only available within mainland China and an applicant generally needs to be either 1) employed in a company, school or some other "respectable" job or 2) a student or 3) retired. Unemployed persons aren't eligible for Thai visas - what a difference to westerners and others who can obtain tourist visa after visa or avail themselves of a tourist visa exemption time and time again with little oversight and almost no documentation required.

I would also be curious to find out more about the points you have raised as I don't think anyone should be fast tracked to Thai citizenship simply based on appearance alone, sounds pretty racist to me (although I shouldn't try to be in denial and pretend Thailand isn't a racist society at least to some degree so even if it did happen, it wouldn't surprise me).

There are however also reports of Indians getting ID cards. I even found a Thai ID card of an Indian or ethnic Indian person once in Bangkok near Asiatique - my fiance confirmed that there are many people of Indian origin getting Thai ID cards and many of them don't even speak much Thai. I think I saw a new Thai citizen of Indian origin once at the airport or somewhere, whose Thai was acceptable, though nowhere near fluent (he kept substituting English words like hotel instead of rong raem, which is the Thai equivalent as he had trouble remembering the Thai for a lot of things).

Edited January 28, 2014 by Tomtomtom69