Thaksin Returns As Pm

[Plus]

Not in Lukamar's view.

I can't help but wonder if the current mess from all the court rulings

He thinks it's the courts who screwed up.

Regarding TRT paying small parties - the EC should send the matter to the courts but at the moment it refuses to accept investigating panel findings.

[lukamar]

Allowing an unconstitutional election to stand would have been far worse than allowing the legislature to do its job.

Here is a simple question.

If the election was unconstitutional from the get-go, why is it that the Constitutional Court only found it unconstitutional after it got a kick in the butt from the Palace, but every member of that court remained silent thorough the entire election process when they had adequate time and forum to comment on it's constitutionality during the preceding few months before their ruling, this would have saved the country much anguish and money?

There is more than one villain here, the Constitutional Court allowing an unconstitutional act to take place by keeping silent when it is their job to uphold the constitution is just as telling of the situation in Thailand as committing the unconstitutional act itself.

[lukamar]

Not in Lukamar's view.

I can't help but wonder if the current mess from all the court rulings

He thinks it's the courts who screwed up.

This is what I said, but you edited my comments, Plus.

"I can't help but wonder if the current mess from all the court rulings is what the Palace had in mind"

I never said anything about the courts screwing up. I just wondered if the court rulings were what the Palace had in mind or if the palace may have had another idea of a direction when the courts were addressed.

[hammered]

Allowing an unconstitutional election to stand would have been far worse than allowing the legislature to do its job.

Here is a simple question.

If the election was unconstitutional from the get-go, why is it that the Constitutional Court only found it unconstitutional after it got a kick in the butt from the Palace, but every member of that court remained silent thorough the entire election process when they had adequate time and forum to comment on it's constitutionality during the preceding few months before their ruling, this would have saved the country much anguish and money?

There is more than one villain here, the Constitutional Court allowing an unconstitutional act to take place by keeping silent when it is their job to uphold the constitution is just as telling of the situation in Thailand as committing the unconstitutional act itself.

Courts in Thailand as in other countries have to have complaints filed with them. They are not proactive. Even after the public statement the courts acted on a string of complaints that were then filed.

It would have saved the country a lot of anguish and money if the government and EC had not tried to circumvent law. It would not have taken them long to seek a legal opinion before carrying on. It is not right to blame judges for the law breaking of others. We would not blame judges for say a murder if the murder case were before them. Please try not bend logic.

[Plus]

You are quite right, Lukamar, that courts should have acted earlier, without awaiting orders from HM.

Still I can't see how exactly they are responsible for any mess created since then. They have been busy clearing up shit left by Thaksin and the EC, and did a commendable job so far.

What exactly do you mean by "mess from all the court rulings"? Why do you think HM might not be satisfied with courts work?

Is it because the courts can't dissolve the EC? Is it because yesterday's ruling on ballot tearing?

BTW, the courts argued that the defendants have a right to resist unconstitutional means of acquiring pqwer and it's been ruled that the elections were, in fact, unconstitutional. It's not the case of dropping lawsuits just because elections were void, it doesn't set a precedent for TRT's party bribing.

[Siripon]

Rest assured that 95% of what Thaksin did today was self serving. The fact that the EC said they would reject the findings that the TRT was funding smaller parties and that Thaksin was named as a co conspirator if not the head conspirator. Apparently the argument from the EC was the investigation was not complete.

Well let me see here, if any of us committed a crime the police would arrest us as soon as they had enough evidence. Then they would continue to gather additional evidence after we had been arrested.

Now seeing as this has all the trademark markings of Thaksin intervening, can you guess what will happen next? Perhaps the reason the investigation committee quit before they finished was because Thaksin was already on them. You know death threats and other such annoyances that can ruin your day. Again all his trademark markings on this. So rest assured he is working for himself, and Thailand is just a tool for him to make more money. So you can see how he is thinking. Sounds a lot like the thinking with his big deal that put all of this on the street.

The good thing is he can’t get much lower, or at least I can’t conceive a way. No morals or ethics. No redeeming traits that I can see.

So this is what Thaksin feared most. As soon as he went out of office the world started to close in on him. He is trying to save his ASSets.

For you people that are saying he did good for the country, yes he did some good things. But there is another saying that rings true here. “When you dance with the devil .......”

So what needs to be done is simply cut the losses and endure a time of stormy times while the Thais find a real person with morals and the same skills.

Right on John, but the problem is Thaksin still controls the state mechanisms with his money and pals.

Now if the courts could appoint a new EC, that would be a start, but Suchon, The Senate caretaker Speaker, is trying to undermine that with his demand the judges replace the deceased and resigned 2 members of the EC to fill the quorum so that the the existing 3 members can stay.

But when they tried to replace the deceased member last year Suchon delayed the nomination offered!

The new member might not be so malleable must have been the fear.

[Plus]

You forgot to mention that the proposed nominee to replace the deceased member, an ex-judge, withdrawn his candidature last week to put more pressue on EC to resign.

And now Suchon is trying to force the courts to appoint TWO new members to the EC they want dissolved in the first place.

It's interesting how some Thai people appear to stand up to the courts who act on a clear mission from the King. I thought it would be unimaginable yet here we are. First it was the EC, and now the Senate speaker. Incindentally both are percieved as Thaksin allies.

[hammered]

You forgot to mention that the proposed nominee to replace the deceased member, an ex-judge, withdrawn his candidature last week to put more pressue on EC to resign.

And now Suchon is trying to force the courts to appoint TWO new members to the EC they want dissolved in the first place.

It's interesting how some Thai people appear to stand up to the courts who act on a clear mission from the King. I thought it would be unimaginable yet here we are. First it was the EC, and now the Senate speaker. Incindentally both are percieved as Thaksin allies.

now lets not talk about finland;)

[lukamar]

Still I can't see how exactly they are responsible for any mess created since then. They have been busy clearing up shit left by Thaksin and the EC, and did a commendable job so far.

Before their rulings it was a mess, now after their rulings it's still a mess, nothing has really been resolved. The parties are still fighting and pointing fingers at each other trying to gain a political advantage, there is no election date in site, there is a caretaker government that is only meant for a short transition now in office for God knows how long. This situation is not good for the country no matter who you support.

What exactly do you mean by "mess from all the court rulings"? Why do you think HM might not be satisfied with courts work?

I was saying that the Palace may well have had some method and outcome in mind, other than the one taken by the courts. We have no way of knowing HM's current views, nor would I like to speculate on them.

[PAC]

The real worry may be the longterm implications of this uncertainty.

To the outside world - read foreign investors - the impasse is having a tremendous detrimental effect on Thailand's image. Instead of being seen as a stable place to do business, Thailand now risks becoming the equivalent of the Phillipines. In the short run, growth is forecast to fall by 50% to 4% for 2006.( AnalyticaAsia.com )

Internally, the strength of Thailand's democracy has to be called into question. If there is one good thing that may come out of the last 5 months, it may be a recognition for the need to establish truely independent institutions.

Edited May 24, 2006 by PAC

[tettyan]

now lets not talk about finland;)

I'm not sure if the mods want us discussing this, as it involves very sensitive issues including the monarchy. But I must say that the whole "Finland" issue reflects very badly on Sondhi. Go back and look at ColPyat's postings about Sondhi's motives before you read the following pieces, and things will suddenly start to make more sense.

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2006/05/25...cs_30004842.php

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2006/05/25...cs_30004843.php

If the mods don't mind, I just want to post a key passage-

....

Perhaps the existence of such a plot, dubbed "Patinya Finland" in Thai, is not so important. Senior political scientists with PhDs like Chai-anan and Pramote know very well that highlighting the deeply sensitive issue of royal power is an effective way of damaging their opponent's political reputation.

Talk about "overthrowing the monarchy" was used as a powerful tool to put a bloody end to the

student movement in 1976.

But the tactic may work. Many Internet opinion sites received postings reacting to the provocative words on Sondhi's Manager website yesterday. One said: "Killing the evil gets no sin", which appears to be a play on the term "Killing communists is no sin", used by the extreme rightwing monk Khittiwutho Bhikkhu in the 1970s. The monk used the term to legitimise the murder of people labelled as communists.

....

NOTE TO MODS - In good faith, I only linked existing newspaper articles and quoted selected passages, but in light of the sensitivity of the subject matter, I understand that you might find it necessary to delete this post.

Edited May 25, 2006 by tettyan

[ando]

OMG. So now Thaksin is a capitalist/communist/republican/dictator? Sondhi and The Nation seem to be covering all the bases with their conspiracy theories.

[sriracha john]

I would tend to agree that the Finland issue is beyond the sensible realm of discussion here.

There are many more worthy issues to deal with than this 7 year-old, highly-volatile subject.

Long Live The King

[Plus]

I, personally, prefer this quote from the same article

Senior academic Pramote Nakorntap said he did not care if the plot existed. What Thaksin had done, however, was closely aligned to the alleged plan.

It's going to be in public domain for awhile now, I doubt if it's possible to completely skirt the issue.

For Sondhi it's manna from heaven, if he manages to avoid lawsuits. The idea is already out, he just needs to expand on it and show some examples. On the other hand he is preaching to the converted, Thaksin supporters will just ignore him.

Lukamar, the mess we are in now is substantially cleaner than a month ago. Ridiculous by-elections have stopped and there's hope for some real elections, albeit not very soon. Better late than never, as they say.

[Hermano Lobo]

TRT = Thaksin Loves Thaksin

He is there for his own ends. Not for Thailand.

His arrogance knows no boundaries !

Thaksin is wily like a fox. He returns to his office and holds a Cabinet

meeting just before the Royal Celebrations.

There will be no demonstrations against Thaksin before or during the Celebrations.

In the meantime he will be pulling strings like crazy.

Crafty for himself, crafty for TRT but bad for Thailand.

However things may hot up again shortly after the celebrations are over.

Edited May 25, 2006 by Hermano Lobo

[ando]

However things may hot up again shortly after the celebrations are over.[/b]

And they will end up at the samer place again. That is,-- the ballot box. The people will decide.

[Hermano Lobo]

However things may hot up again shortly after the celebrations are over.[/b]

And they will end up at the samer place again. That is,-- the ballot box. The people will decide.

Oh THE BALLOT BOX ! The place where officials are allowed to look over your shoulder as you vote for a candidate that you have just been given 500 Baht to vote for and has been illegally set up in the first place.

Oh THAT Ballot Box !

Stupid boy Pike !

Edited May 25, 2006 by Hermano Lobo

[John K]

I don’t think the Finland topic is off base, but it does seem to be the blue print for what is going on here. I read the plan and it does not take a lot to see what is going on now matches it. It is a bit more specific than some things Nostradamus would have written. One thing for sure if Thaksin is upset about it, it’s on base. He only becomes aggressive when I nerve is hit. Take a closer look, if the comment is off the wall he just ignores it. If he has to defend himself, it has merit.

[opothai]

an autobiography of this idiot would be interesting

but truthful, i doubt it.

in years to come what he has done will be transparent and it will not be pretty

how in this age and time a leader of a democratic country can still get away with the things he has done is very hard to believe

most leaders lie in the modern world but cheating to line thier own pockets to the extent this man has done

[Plus]

And they will end up at the samer place again. That is,-- the ballot box.

Are we talking about the same country? Because here, in Thailand, things ended in courts, not in <deleted> boxes.

Having said that, the courts might end their mission on setting new EC and new elections, and skip TRT bribery allegations or Thaksin's taking leave from caretaking duties. In that case people will back on the streets.

[Siripon]

You are quite right, Lukamar, that courts should have acted earlier, without awaiting orders from HM.

Still I can't see how exactly they are responsible for any mess created since then. They have been busy clearing up shit left by Thaksin and the EC, and did a commendable job so far.

What exactly do you mean by "mess from all the court rulings"? Why do you think HM might not be satisfied with courts work?

Is it because the courts can't dissolve the EC? Is it because yesterday's ruling on ballot tearing?

BTW, the courts argued that the defendants have a right to resist unconstitutional means of acquiring pqwer and it's been ruled that the elections were, in fact, unconstitutional. It's not the case of dropping lawsuits just because elections were void, it doesn't set a precedent for TRT's party bribing.

It would have been considered unseemly for the courts to intervene previously, except in response to specific complaints or grievances; but under the present constitution HM can ask any of the 3 pillars of Legislature, Administration or Judiciary to take action to solve a problem, bypassing the Pm etc.

This is what happened and the judges asked the remaining members of the EC to resign.

They haven't, and I believe Lukamar you can understand why.

Protection is better than cure.

[lukamar]

[it would have been considered unseemly for the courts to intervene previously, except in response to specific complaints or grievances; but under the present constitution HM can ask any of the 3 pillars of Legislature, Administration or Judiciary to take action to solve a problem, bypassing the Pm etc.

The court could have easily ruled, before April 2, on the ballot box placement. They had the opportunity when ruling on the rubber stamp issue but they chose to remain silent on the issue. The rubber stamps are used in the ballot box and thus both are interrelated. Courts often bring extenuating or foreseen problematic circumstances into their rulings to add weight.

My point is the court should have ruled before the April 2 election, as they could have done. They should have been proactive rather than reactive to HM address.

[sriracha john]

and the clueless EC continues to NOT GET IT. It's not about which date to choose, it's about them resigning:

EC's proposal for Oct 15 poll fails to dispel legal doubts

The Election Commission yesterday proposed Oct 15 as the new election date but failed to dispel doubts over whether the determination process was above board. A source close to the country's top courts said the Administrative, Constitution and Supreme courts had agreed to meet on May 31 to consider the legality of the EC's proposal.

The EC came up with the new date after the three courts ruled that its earlier proposal for the election to be held on Oct 22 was illegal because the meeting had lacked a quorum.

Continued here:

http://www.bangkokpost.com/News/26May2006_news04.php

[ando]

Oh, great!. Just what the country needs. Another stalemate.

Surely somebody has the power to kick some arse and get things moving.

[Plus]

No one has the power to directly kick EC's ass, at least not on a short notice.

Students protesting against the EC decided to call their demonstrations off. They said the EC is not going to listen or be reasoned with. There are powerful people propping it and it better be dealt with according to the law.

Right now the EC behaves like they don't care about anything. They call meeting to set the election date even if they've been told they can't legally set anything due to the lack of quorum. It can't function with only three commissioners left, yet it stubbornly persists.

[lukamar]

Oh, great!. Just what the country needs. Another stalemate.

Surely somebody has the power to kick some arse and get things moving.

The courts should have ruled on a new election date when they annulled the previous elections. Their ruling should have been "the election has been annulled and the new election date is ______". It would have been simple for them to get together and figure out a date for a new election, but they did not.

In HM's address to the courts, "You have sworn to work for democracy. If you cannot do it, then you may have to resign. You must find ways to solve the problem..... If you cannot do it, then it should be you who resign, not the government, for failing to do your duty. "

As the courts have not managed to "solve the problem" as HM asked, them maybe it's them that should consider resigning because HM defiantly made a very strong point of that option not once but twice.

[Plus]

The courts should have ruled on a new election date when they annulled the previous elections. Their ruling should have been "the election has been annulled and the new election date is ______".

Setting election dates is beyond courts power.

[lukamar]

Setting election dates is beyond courts power.

This is all new uncharted waters, they could have set or suggested a new date, they just didn't want to handle that hot potato.

[Plus]

For setting elections dates and managing them there's EC, it's none of courts business. You can't even talk about jurisdiction - courts don't make any executive decisions. They can appoint EC members and check that the EC follows the laws, but they neither make the laws no execute them.

[sriracha john]

No one has the power to directly kick EC's ass, at least not on a short notice.

A possible lead on that some "one" to have them change their behavior?: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?s=...ndpost&p=757147

Students protesting against the EC decided to call their demonstrations off. They said the EC is not going to listen or be reasoned with. There are powerful people propping it and it better be dealt with according to the law.

Right now the EC behaves like they don't care about anything. They call meeting to set the election date even if they've been told they can't legally set anything due to the lack of quorum. It can't function with only three commissioners left, yet it stubbornly persists.

Their persistence IS amazing...