EC takes poll row to court

[Briggsy]

Civil servants and Judges Tag Team vs Elected Representatives in a TWWF grudge match.

Looks like the Shin siblings will have their work cut out with this one. I expect them to be clotheslined in short order.

[Scamper]

Indeed, the Constitution Court can make the definitive ruling on this - and given the proximity of the election - we can expect it to be a swift ruling. In all likihood, the Constitution Court will unhold the EC's authority. It is sad that it has come to this - that the only way the EC has been able to make the administration listen to it - as they are constitutionally bound to do - is to communicate with them through the court. The question is - will Pheu Thai listen to the Constitution Court ? Or will they spark yet another constitutional crisis ?

[chainarong]

The EC should know what its mandate is , it should not have to go to court , it should be spelt out very clearly where it stands on all matters, I would think that it only has a mandate to conduct elections , not to think that it has powers ,that are above the government , be that a caretaker one or an elected one.

[xminator]

rubbish constitution if they have to go to the courts for a simple thing like elections. Talk about dysfunctional.

Dont forget that the constitution was written with one goal in mind: keep the coup generals out of jail.

And then amended for the democrats to win an election. With as many loopholes as possible in case that went wrong.

[SICHONSTEVE]

JRSoul

You are making a typical "red-thinking" mistake. The EC is NOT an arm of the government, it is a constitutionally appointed independent body intended to make sure elections are held according to the applicable laws. While other so-called independent bodies, such as the DSI, have become "arms" acting on government orders and refusing to enforce laws they blatantly break, the EC has not succumbed.

Reforms are needed to prevent suborning of the independent bodies to ensure honest, transparent and accountable government in this country.

BTW I love mixed metaphors; arm of a snake is a ripper, though the snake reference is apt.

Absolutely spot on sir.

Don't expect them to understand that, it is too technical for them and different to what they hear in their red villages!!

Also, there are too many words with more than 4 letters in it, so that will simply compound their confusion!!

[SICHONSTEVE]

rubbish constitution if they have to go to the courts for a simple thing like elections. Talk about dysfunctional.

Dont forget that the constitution was written with one goal in mind: keep the coup generals out of jail.

And then amended for the democrats to win an election. With as many loopholes as possible in case that went wrong.

You conveniently forgot the bit about it being approved by the people in a national referendum!!!

[fab4]

This Constitution was voted in by Referendum, so if anybody wants to make changes to it, it should be done via referendum, again, after the changes have been discussed and voted on, bring it back to the people.

I wonder why the PTP weren't confident of having their amended constitution approved in a referendum (which they had the chance of doing)?? Just what was to be lurking inside it that the people might not like I wonder??

Two things.

Firstly, kurtgruen, the constitution may have been voted in by a referendum (disregarding the conditions under which that happened) but I don't recall the Junta having a referendum before they amended the 1997 constitution - a condition that was imposed on the PTP if they wanted to amend the 2007 Junta constitution. Double Standards?

Secondly, SICHONSTEVE, the Constitution Court told that the PTP had to have a referendum before amending the Constitution OR amend individual sections within parliament, which they attempted to do, until the dems started throwing lawsuits around.

Are we clear now?

Edited January 22, 2014 by fab4

[Jasun]

Seems a bit like child going to one parent to ask for something contrary to the other parent's wishes.

[rickirs]

The EC is trying as hard as they can to not do it's job. Even trying to stop people from their right to vote.

One must ask "who is in power The Government" or the "Electoral Commission"

[...]

According to Article 214 of the Constitution, whenever there is a conflict of power between the governing bodies, the matter may be settled by the Constitutional Court.

What agency are we talking about here? Is it the EC? Aren't the EC an arm of the government? - Ii is akin to the body of the snake questioning the Snakes Head on the right of the "Head" to make decisions - no wonder we are in such a mess and of course this all plays into the hands of Mr "S" & Mr "T".

Not exactly, the EC is an independent agency of the Thai government.

What does that mean? Read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Election_Commission_of_Thailand

and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Independent_Government_Agencies_of_Thailand

We tend to talk quite loosely about a government, often thinking it is the same as the executive (PM and ministers), but it isn't. The EC is part of the Thai government but it is not under the control of the executive - hence the arguments.

OK, if you take this on its face as being correct, then the EC is empowered to delay the election on it's own volition, right? It doesn't need the caretaker government to agree -- right? As such, the EC is asking the CC for an advisory opinion not an interpretation of the Constitution.

If it was so empowreed, why didn't EC do so almost a month ago when asked by Yingluck to do so? On the face of it, the EC wants no responsibility.

[waza]

This Constitution was voted in by Referendum, so if anybody wants to make changes to it, it should be done via referendum, again, after the changes have been discussed and voted on, bring it back to the people.

I wonder why the PTP weren't confident of having their amended constitution approved in a referendum (which they had the chance of doing)?? Just what was to be lurking inside it that the people might not like I wonder??

Two things.

Firstly, kurtgruen, the constitution may have been voted in by a referendum (disregarding the conditions under which that happened) but I don't recall the Junta having a referendum before they amended the 1997 constitution - a condition that was imposed on the PTP if they wanted to amend the 2007 Junta constitution. Double Standards?

Secondly, SICHONSTEVE, the Constitution Court told that the PTP had to have a referendum before amending the Constitution OR amend individual sections within parliament, which they attempted to do, until the dems started throwing lawsuits around.

Are we clear now?

So your saying a popularly elected government shouldn't have checks and balances imposed on it because it got the majority vote and that's democracy, tyranny of the Majority?

Sounds like more Fab4 red fabrications, democracy depends on an even balance between all areas of governance. The PTP have utilised loophole in the constitution to upset the balance and Suthep wants it rebalanced.

[rickirs]

Whether the EC is trying or not trying to hold the election in 10 days time doesn't really matter....with only 10 days to go, it seems to be a mission impossible.......40 million voters to get organised???

Can't see it happening with any sort of efficiency!.......another major mess on the way!

Everyone on my families tabian bahn have recieved their election notices from the government allready.I think a few will be voting differently to how they did last time.

That is what elections are about. But infortunately, no matter how badly things might go against the PTP in the elections, nothing will go in favor of the Democrats because Suthep chose not to have the party on the ballot. It might be interesting to see several of the minority parties be able as a result of an election that went largely against the PTP form a coalition to take control of the government. Not having any connection with Thaksin, such a situation would completely marginalize the former Democrat Party out of politics.

[chrisrazz]

Whether the EC is trying or not trying to hold the election in 10 days time doesn't really matter....with only 10 days to go, it seems to be a mission impossible.......40 million voters to get organised???

Can't see it happening with any sort of efficiency!.......another major mess on the way!

Everyone on my families tabian bahn have recieved their election notices from the government allready.I think a few will be voting differently to how they did last time.

That is what elections are about. But infortunately, no matter how badly things might go against the PTP in the elections, nothing will go in favor of the Democrats because Suthep chose not to have the party on the ballot. It might be interesting to see several of the minority parties be able as a result of an election that went largely against the PTP form a coalition to take control of the government. Not having any connection with Thaksin, such a situation would completely marginalize the former Democrat Party out of politics.

Another reason why they don't want an election. If this were to happen (here's hoping) the Dems are finished.

[SICHONSTEVE]

This Constitution was voted in by Referendum, so if anybody wants to make changes to it, it should be done via referendum, again, after the changes have been discussed and voted on, bring it back to the people.

I wonder why the PTP weren't confident of having their amended constitution approved in a referendum (which they had the chance of doing)?? Just what was to be lurking inside it that the people might not like I wonder??

Two things.

Firstly, kurtgruen, the constitution may have been voted in by a referendum (disregarding the conditions under which that happened) but I don't recall the Junta having a referendum before they amended the 1997 constitution - a condition that was imposed on the PTP if they wanted to amend the 2007 Junta constitution. Double Standards?

Secondly, SICHONSTEVE, the Constitution Court told that the PTP had to have a referendum before amending the Constitution OR amend individual sections within parliament, which they attempted to do, until the dems started throwing lawsuits around.

Are we clear now?

So your saying a popularly elected government shouldn't have checks and balances imposed on it because it got the majority vote and that's democracy, tyranny of the Majority?

Sounds like more Fab4 red fabrications, democracy depends on an even balance between all areas of governance. The PTP have utilised loophole in the constitution to upset the balance and Suthep wants it rebalanced.

Can't have that as that makes it a level playing field and the democrats have sensible policies that will benefit the nation.

How can Thaksin keep on dominating the elections if they can't bribe, lie, deceive and manipulate the populace - c'mon be fair to the PTP will you!!!

This checks and balances thing slows the flow of money down as well, the more I think about it the more unfair it is.

Just what are you trying to do? clean politics up and deprive us of our democratic right to cheat the people.

[fab4]

This Constitution was voted in by Referendum, so if anybody wants to make changes to it, it should be done via referendum, again, after the changes have been discussed and voted on, bring it back to the people.

I wonder why the PTP weren't confident of having their amended constitution approved in a referendum (which they had the chance of doing)?? Just what was to be lurking inside it that the people might not like I wonder??

Two things.

Firstly, kurtgruen, the constitution may have been voted in by a referendum (disregarding the conditions under which that happened) but I don't recall the Junta having a referendum before they amended the 1997 constitution - a condition that was imposed on the PTP if they wanted to amend the 2007 Junta constitution. Double Standards?

Secondly, SICHONSTEVE, the Constitution Court told that the PTP had to have a referendum before amending the Constitution OR amend individual sections within parliament, which they attempted to do, until the dems started throwing lawsuits around.

Are we clear now?

So your saying a popularly elected government shouldn't have checks and balances imposed on it because it got the majority vote and that's democracy, tyranny of the Majority?

Sounds like more Fab4 red fabrications, democracy depends on an even balance between all areas of governance. The PTP have utilised loophole in the constitution to upset the balance and Suthep wants it rebalanced.

No, I'm not. I'm sayng the checks and balances imposed should be consistent, balanced and fair, not something you could accuse the CC of.

Suthep wants nothing of the sort, he wants an appointed peoples council.

I've said this before, DO NOT accuse me of lying without substantiation. Just because you're hiding behind your anonymity on this board does not make your accusations justified.

If you can find anything in my post above that is a lie, Prove it.

[SICHONSTEVE]

Whether the EC is trying or not trying to hold the election in 10 days time doesn't really matter....with only 10 days to go, it seems to be a mission impossible.......40 million voters to get organised???

Can't see it happening with any sort of efficiency!.......another major mess on the way!

Everyone on my families tabian bahn have recieved their election notices from the government allready.I think a few will be voting differently to how they did last time.

That is what elections are about. But infortunately, no matter how badly things might go against the PTP in the elections, nothing will go in favor of the Democrats because Suthep chose not to have the party on the ballot. It might be interesting to see several of the minority parties be able as a result of an election that went largely against the PTP form a coalition to take control of the government. Not having any connection with Thaksin, such a situation would completely marginalize the former Democrat Party out of politics.

The Democrats, despite what you 'reds' think, aren't thirsting for power (like someone I know).

They are determined in their quest of removing the Shinawatra's from power. They would be quite content if the minorities could form a government devoid of influence from Thaksin.

Suthep will step away from politics to enjoy his retirement, content in the knowledge that the scourge of Thailand has finally been eliminated for good!!

[binjalin]

rubbish constitution if they have to go to the courts for a simple thing like elections. Talk about dysfunctional.

Not like the UK then?

UK doesn't have a constitution or a constitutional court

[waza]

I wonder why the PTP weren't confident of having their amended constitution approved in a referendum (which they had the chance of doing)?? Just what was to be lurking inside it that the people might not like I wonder??

Two things.

Firstly, kurtgruen, the constitution may have been voted in by a referendum (disregarding the conditions under which that happened) but I don't recall the Junta having a referendum before they amended the 1997 constitution - a condition that was imposed on the PTP if they wanted to amend the 2007 Junta constitution. Double Standards?

Secondly, SICHONSTEVE, the Constitution Court told that the PTP had to have a referendum before amending the Constitution OR amend individual sections within parliament, which they attempted to do, until the dems started throwing lawsuits around.

Are we clear now?

So your saying a popularly elected government shouldn't have checks and balances imposed on it because it got the majority vote and that's democracy, tyranny of the Majority?

Sounds like more Fab4 red fabrications, democracy depends on an even balance between all areas of governance. The PTP have utilised loophole in the constitution to upset the balance and Suthep wants it rebalanced.

No, I'm not. I'm sayng the checks and balances imposed should be consistent, balanced and fair, not something you could accuse the CC of.

Suthep wants nothing of the sort, he wants an appointed peoples council.

I've said this before, DO NOT accuse me of lying without substantiation.Just because you're hiding behind your anonymity on this board does not make your accusations justified.

If you can find anything in my post above that is a lie, Prove it.

You original post, in answer to SICHONSTEVE, said that the PTP couldn't hold a referendum for constitutional change because the 1997 one didnt. Furthermore, they attemped the article by article change but the CC and Dems blocked them using checks and balances.

Fab4 the CC and Dems don't impose check and balances, to say this would be a fabrication. The checks and balances are written in to the constitution and the role of the CC is to interpret the constitution to resolve disputes.

PS: "Just because you're hiding behind your anonymity on this board", I don't see you flaunting your name and home address.

Edited January 22, 2014 by waza

[Roadman]

rubbish constitution if they have to go to the courts for a simple thing like elections. Talk about dysfunctional.

Eggxacally...penny finally dropping?.....and the reason the elections need scraped and the whole bloody dysfunctional system rebuilt by all those involved.

No they dont need scrapping, you do it by getting together an electable opposition with real policies and the trust of the people. In the meantime yes there needs to be all sides sitting down and beginning the repair of a broken system. What you don't do is try and install an un named hand picked excluding peoples council. Ive not heard once that Sutheps idea would include PT representatives or any other name for that matter. As you say it must include all.

PS the current constitution was made by exactly who and with whos help ?

Why do you continue to put so much on Suthep's ideas? Suthep is only one of the nuisance nails being driven into the Shinawatra coffin. The bigger ones are going to come from the judiciary and others. Suthep is the mad dog needed to do the mad dog task. He will not have any or very little say in what happens once the current caretaker government fails. That will be decided by persons with far more power than Suthep.

[Thait Spot]

The EC is trying as hard as they can to not do it's job. Even trying to stop people from their right to vote.

So, you are saying that the EC is not doing its job by asking the CC if either the caretaker government or the EC is able to delay the election given the current circumstances as a means of defusing the current climate?

I think it is indeed performing its prescribed function.

However the caretaker government is saying that it cannot defuse the situation because it says it does no have the right - which is really just a silly way of saying that it will continue to hold on to power by its collective fingernails in the hope that something, somehow, miraculously saves them from their own corrupt devices.

[Roadman]

Deleted double post

Edited January 22, 2014 by Roadman

[Thait Spot]

This Constitution was voted in by Referendum, so if anybody wants to make changes to it, it should be done via referendum, again, after the changes have been discussed and voted on, bring it back to the people.

I wonder why the PTP weren't confident of having their amended constitution approved in a referendum (which they had the chance of doing)?? Just what was to be lurking inside it that the people might not like I wonder??

Two things.

Firstly, kurtgruen, the constitution may have been voted in by a referendum (disregarding the conditions under which that happened) but I don't recall the Junta having a referendum before they amended the 1997 constitution - a condition that was imposed on the PTP if they wanted to amend the 2007 Junta constitution. Double Standards?

Secondly, SICHONSTEVE, the Constitution Court told that the PTP had to have a referendum before amending the Constitution OR amend individual sections within parliament, which they attempted to do, until the dems started throwing lawsuits around.

Are we clear now?

Now you're being nonsensical.

The 2007 constitution was changed by referendum thus raising the bar of democracy even higher.

The thought that a bunch of anarchic lesser primates could change the constitution without doing so over a large bunch of bananas defies belief. The protocol has been established

[SICHONSTEVE]

This Constitution was voted in by Referendum, so if anybody wants to make changes to it, it should be done via referendum, again, after the changes have been discussed and voted on, bring it back to the people.

I wonder why the PTP weren't confident of having their amended constitution approved in a referendum (which they had the chance of doing)?? Just what was to be lurking inside it that the people might not like I wonder??

Two things.

Firstly, kurtgruen, the constitution may have been voted in by a referendum (disregarding the conditions under which that happened) but I don't recall the Junta having a referendum before they amended the 1997 constitution - a condition that was imposed on the PTP if they wanted to amend the 2007 Junta constitution. Double Standards?

Secondly, SICHONSTEVE, the Constitution Court told that the PTP had to have a referendum before amending the Constitution OR amend individual sections within parliament, which they attempted to do, until the dems started throwing lawsuits around.

Are we clear now?

Now you're being nonsensical.

The 2007 constitution was changed by referendum thus raising the bar of democracy even higher.

The thought that a bunch of anarchic lesser primates could change the constitution without doing so over a large bunch of bananas defies belief. The protocol has been established

Indeed, certain elements of this constitution halted the PTP's dirty deeds in their tracks and they will be paying the consequences of their naughtiness soon in the courts!!

Good luck Yingluck, I wouldn't rely on your brothers advice anymore as it seems to have lost it's shine and become rather tarnished of late - just about everything he has thought of, devised, suggested seems to have back fired on you and your crooked team!!

[sjaak327]

rubbish constitution if they have to go to the courts for a simple thing like elections. Talk about dysfunctional.

Dont forget that the constitution was written with one goal in mind: keep the coup generals out of jail.

And then amended for the democrats to win an election. With as many loopholes as possible in case that went wrong.

You conveniently forgot the bit about it being approved by the people in a national referendum!!!

Which was a take it or leave it proposition. Of course if one would be entirely honest, the only valid constitution is the one from 1997. The one without a 50% appointed senate and other ineffective measures, the one that was actually drafted with an electoral mandate...

[shiok]

The EC objection is that it can not run a safe and fair election at the moment.

The question is; Is safe a viable delaying reason, it might be,

while not being fair is subjective at best, but may well be a valid reason for delay.

Yes good for the court to rule. But how fast to rule and if it will be in time who knows.

Certainly the attempts to delay are not the same as stopping preparations for it.

Clearly the gov. seems desperate to run the election and regain control of the money.

Well said and how true!

[hughben]

This weekend voters are supposed to register in their home provinces someone mentioned somewhere (and all bars are closed).

Are people preparing to return home?

Can anyone see this happening?

It's ridiculous.

[englishoak]

“There seems no historical case — worldwide — of an official body in charge of holding an election that actively and aggressively opposed an election from every possible angle, at every possible moment,” said a recent commentary

Full article in the NY times here http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/23/world/asia/thailand-election.html?hp&_r=0

ahh well guess Thailand got to be first for something....

Edited January 22, 2014 by englishoak

[pipkins]

rubbish constitution if they have to go to the courts for a simple thing like elections. Talk about dysfunctional.

Dont forget that the constitution was written with one goal in mind: keep the coup generals out of jail.

And then amended for the democrats to win an election. With as many loopholes as possible in case that went wrong.

You conveniently forgot the bit about it being approved by the people in a national referendum!!!

Which was a take it or leave it proposition. Of course if one would be entirely honest, the only valid constitution is the one from 1997. The one without a 50% appointed senate and other ineffective measures, the one that was actually drafted with an electoral mandate...

Take it or leave it yes. ALSO

It was a punishable offence to campaign against it or dissent. All the press and media had to tow the line. Many of the usual suspect were delighted to do to this, but the ones that didn't were closed down.

EC Somchai is really getting it in the real world and real media.

Also for his sexist idotic comments regarding Yingluk. All this makes it even more unlikely that Thailand could function on the world stage after a coup.

Quote. from NYTIMES http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/23/world/asia/thailand-election.html?smid=fb-share&_r=0

“There seems no historical case — worldwide — of an official body in charge of holding an election that actively and aggressively opposed an election from every possible angle, at every possible moment,

Edited January 22, 2014 by pipkins

[SICHONSTEVE]

“There seems no historical case — worldwide — of an official body in charge of holding an election that actively and aggressively opposed an election from every possible angle, at every possible moment,” said a recent commentary

Full article in the NY times here http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/23/world/asia/thailand-election.html?hp&_r=0

ahh well guess Thailand got to be first for something....

They (the EC) haven't openly opposed an election, neither have the Democrats actually - it is simply not the right time, that's all and they want to postpone it until it is safe to hold it.

You cannot have an election whilst there is a 60 day emergency decree on - sheer lunacy if you ask me.

I would imagine, with this rice scam fiasco coming to a head that the PTP might secretly want it postponed as it is a rather embarrassing situation for them to have their key voters attempting to oust them along with Suthep!!!

Clear now?

[pipkins]

“There seems no historical case — worldwide — of an official body in charge of holding an election that actively and aggressively opposed an election from every possible angle, at every possible moment,” said a recent commentary

Full article in the NY times here http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/23/world/asia/thailand-election.html?hp&_r=0

ahh well guess Thailand got to be first for something....

They (the EC) haven't openly opposed an election, neither have the Democrats actually - it is simply not the right time, that's all and they want to postpone it until it is safe to hold it.

You cannot have an election whilst there is a 60 day emergency decree on - sheer lunacy if you ask me.

I would imagine, with this rice scam fiasco coming to a head that the PTP might secretly want it postponed as it is a rather embarrassing situation for them to have their key voters attempting to oust them along with Suthep!!!

Clear now?

A message below the headline was incredible. Thailand has a Democrat party that does not belive or want elections and and Elections commission that does not belive in elections. Amazing.

Longer you put it off (election) longer you have Yingluk in caretaker mode where she cannot take flack for decisions as the EC and CC are making them So, no mud to throw... none to stick This gets the rice farmers off her case as it is clear now that the courts and Suthep (physically in his case) are blocking the payment.

Trouble with many in the Courts and Dems and EC is that they are the same superior bunch. In the good old days nobody would ever criticise them and they only ever heard praise for their greatness. Old Thai Way.

Now, they are having their feet held to the fire about their outragous sexist remarks, collusions against democracy and they just don't know what to do with it. So they keep on keeping on and as they do so, they turn more people off their cause.

Their cause? To withold the status quo, keep the corruption and cronyism (look at the powerbrokers sending their mobs out in the south and Buri Ram) at current levels, but just have themselves once more as the recipients.

It's not what we understand about your argument... its how can thailand progress with these coup mongers on the scene. They are despised and have to be got rid of. Simple

Edited January 22, 2014 by pipkins

[fleeing]

For the constitutionally challenged, of which there are apparently quite a few here,

The EC is charged with organising, monitoring and assessing(that means making sure the votes are counted) the election.

The government, even when it is a caretaker government, has the prerogative of calling the election and choosing the election date. The choice of election date is usually made after consulting the EC.

The EC has reservations about being able to organise and monitor the election under the present conditions, even before the SoE was announced, as well as disputing the usefulness of having an election that cannot elect enough MPs to constitute a quorum.

The caretaker government insists on holding an election on the date they have already chosen.

With such disagreement it is necessary to ask on opinion of a higher authority, which in Thailand is the Constitutional Court.