Stator test readings

[olddoc]

Wonder if a simple cylinder compression test has been undertaken ?

[yankee99]

Wonder if a simple cylinder compression test has been undertaken ?

Why would he do that when he can just keep replacing things by trial and error. He is not a troubleshooter...

[AllanB]

Wonder if a simple cylinder compression test has been undertaken ?

Why would he do that when he can just keep replacing things by trial and error. He is not a troubleshooter...

....pretty unfair criticism yankee. Systematically I have been looking at all the probables, followed by the possibles and now looking at the unlikely-s. Apart for a couple of coils, which were the most likely cause of a misfire, I have replaced virtually nothing and corrected a large number of faults in the process. You not only insult me, but many of the people who have been trying to help me with this old bike. So go trolling elsewhere.

I must admit we haven't measured cylinder compression, there is reasonable power and especially torque from the engine which would denote that things are not too bad in that direction. Or at least not bad enough to cause the misfire, though valve bounce is still a very vague possibility.

Checking and resetting valve clearances was done a long time ago and mentioned previously on this forum.

Valve timing was dismissed as a possible cause as the engine runs very well with no backfiring either upstream or downstream at any time. I have no manual on the bike and with spares scarce, I am reluctant to strip the engine any further at this point. Making gaskets is not my favourite thing.

Yes, CDI is the correct term.

[yankee99]

Wonder if a simple cylinder compression test has been undertaken ?

Why would he do that when he can just keep replacing things by trial and error. He is not a troubleshooter...

....pretty unfair criticism yankee. Systematically I have been looking at all the probables, followed by the possibles and now looking at the unlikely-s. Apart for a couple of coils, which were the most likely cause of a misfire, I have replaced virtually nothing and corrected a large number of faults in the process. You not only insult me, but many of the people who have been trying to help me with this old bike. So go trolling elsewhere.

I must admit we haven't measured cylinder compression, there is reasonable power and especially torque from the engine which would denote that things are not too bad in that direction. Or at least not bad enough to cause the misfire, though valve bounce is still a very vague possibility.

Checking and resetting valve clearances was done a long time ago and mentioned previously on this forum.

Valve timing was dismissed as a possible cause as the engine runs very well with no backfiring either upstream or downstream at any time. I have no manual on the bike and with spares scarce, I am reluctant to strip the engine any further at this point. Making gaskets is not my favourite thing.

Yes, CDI is the correct term.

my goal was not to insult .

Lets look at what happened. Remove and rebuild carb, remove stator, replace coils and now the cdi. While running the wrong pipes and air filter. Not once did you mention how you came to the conclusion that any of the above was your demon. Only a guessing game but this has been a long thread and maybe i missed it.

Personally my recommendation would be to take it to a experienced mechanic.

[ll2]

your medicine is cbr250 allan

otherwise, we will be seeing your stator readings thread for a long time.

[seedy]

If just CDI ignition, then no ECU, so no worry about sensors causing grief.

Wish I was closer, am intrigued !!! Would like to be there at the VIOLA ! Moment.

[AllanB]

Wonder if a simple cylinder compression test has been undertaken ?

Why would he do that when he can just keep replacing things by trial and error. He is not a troubleshooter...

....pretty unfair criticism yankee. Systematically I have been looking at all the probables, followed by the possibles and now looking at the unlikely-s. Apart for a couple of coils, which were the most likely cause of a misfire, I have replaced virtually nothing and corrected a large number of faults in the process. You not only insult me, but many of the people who have been trying to help me with this old bike. So go trolling elsewhere.

I must admit we haven't measured cylinder compression, there is reasonable power and especially torque from the engine which would denote that things are not too bad in that direction. Or at least not bad enough to cause the misfire, though valve bounce is still a very vague possibility.

Checking and resetting valve clearances was done a long time ago and mentioned previously on this forum.

Valve timing was dismissed as a possible cause as the engine runs very well with no backfiring either upstream or downstream at any time. I have no manual on the bike and with spares scarce, I am reluctant to strip the engine any further at this point. Making gaskets is not my favourite thing.

Yes, CDI is the correct term.

my goal was not to insult .

Lets look at what happened. Remove and rebuild carb, remove stator, replace coils and now the cdi. While running the wrong pipes and air filter. Not once did you mention how you came to the conclusion that any of the above was your demon. Only a guessing game but this has been a long thread and maybe i missed it.

Personally my recommendation would be to take it to a experienced mechanic.

We have looked at everything on the fuel as well as the electric side, except for items where it was impractical to do so.

The two CDI units are unobtainable here and expensive from the USA and UK, but we checked them for physical damage, including the wiring found nothing. The mixture is undoubtedly running a little lean, but the needle heights cannot be adjusted and I have no idea of the spec of the needles, so cannot get an upgrade. The air filter in unobtainable, as is the silencer, so we have done our best to tune both. The unique ignition switch does have a fault, someone has played with it, but once on the light are all steady. As I have said before with a lack of available spare parts, I am reluctant to start stripping the engine down, bits on 30 year old bikes, especially plastic can become fragile and at least it is running.

As a home market only model, the only documentation available is in Japanese, mostly on PDF files and they were only built from 1983 to 1985, making research very difficult.

Yesterday, possibly as the weather was getting warmer, the hot start problem returned with a vengeance, so that backward step may be helpful, when I get my thinking head on. I filled up with benzine 95 and reduced the filter area by 1/3rd in an effort to enrich the mixture and although the misfire is almost cured (I think) the hot start is back as a major problem.

If I can't get one here, I will bring back a digital tachometer with HT sensor from the UK and should then be able to identify whether the fault is electrical, or fuel. Though I am starting to think there is more than one problem here, as this is undoubtedly a highly strung engine. After all it produces 43bhp from 400cc, whereas the model that followed, the Honda Steed, produced only 30bhp, that is 43% more power from the same basic engine. Perhaps this is why the NV400 Custom had such a short production run and was confined to the home market, maybe it was problematic?

All of the things we have tried came from one or more of 3 sources, my ex-Team-Suzuki friend, suggestions from this forum, or from other solutions found on the internet, like Youtube and other bike forums. The stator solution came from Youtube where the guy had exactly the same symptoms as on my bike, so worthy of investigation.

If you don't wish to take part in solving this conundrum that is fine, lots of other threads for you to follow, but frustrating as this is, it is a challenge that I enjoy. I am learning a lot about bikes and the bike is running much better than when I bought it. I love the bike.

A guessing game? after 4 months of trying everything...absolutely, so if you have any better ideas put them forward, I am all ears.

For those who are suggesting a new bike, you are either missing the point, or perhaps just playing with me, in any case I have no wish to be seen on a back-breaking sewing machine and besides at 6 foot tall I don't fit.

The NV400 will be fantastic if and when I get it running at 100%, or perhaps it is the Alfa Romeo from Honda. Anyway for 8 months of the year I have bugga all else to do.

[ll2]

just joking Allan, i respect what your work on your bike, no worries.

But, i also suggest you to take it to a competent mechanic possibly you can find in Bangkok and let them check it thoroughly.

[AllanB]

just joking Allan, i respect what your work on your bike, no worries.

But, i also suggest you to take it to a competent mechanic possibly you can find in Bangkok and let them check it thoroughly.

That's ok, I am familiar with the banter that goes on, it's just that sometimes I get up in morning I wish the MF were fixed.

As I said i have a good friend who used to work for Team Suzuki UK as race mechanic and also as a problem solver, on customer's new bikes. So I doubt if I find could anyone better here in Thailand and here in Khon Kaen (450km from Bkk) the last "specialist mechanic" butchered my old Phantom almost beyond repair, a bike he said he was very familiar with. I had two complete engine rebuilds in 3 weeks, so there is no way I would let any Thai near this bike.

So although it is frustrating, we are not doing any damage along the way, which would render the bike inoperable and have found and corrected dozens of minor faults, so I am convinced we will get there.

I am not that flush with cash right now, but have plenty of time on my hands and enjoy making bits for the bike, which is just as well since parts are scarce. Been lucky that I can get brake pads, but shoes for the back will have to be re-lined, oil filter okay, but no air filter and there are a few Steed bits that fit too.

The 43bhp, I really don't need, just want grunt for the hills, so the Steed's engine would better.

[paz]

again for the umpteen time, you need a new cdi and or pickup. physical inspection means nothing. Or sell as is and get something else that works.

[AllanB]

again for the umpteen time, you need a new cdi and or pickup. physical inspection means nothing. Or sell as is and get something else that works.

again for the umteenth time, I have changed the coils, not for new coils as they are not available, but coils already tested on another bike. There are two CDI's on this bike and they are not available here either. If you wish to spend a few thousand dollars on these coils and CDI's on the off chance that one will fix my bike, I will happy to except them.

Do you not understand this is not a Honda Wave 110, with stocks of cheap spares available everywhere, it a 30 year old bike, produced over a period of less than three years, in Japan, exclusively for the home market.

I am doing my best with what I can get hold of here in terms of spares and before I go to any more expense replacing parts, namely CDI's, I want to establish one thing. Is the fault electrical or petrol in origin? This, I hope, can be determined by the use of a digital tachometer.

If your attitude is to "throw in the towel" and sell something just because it can't be fixed immediately, I do not share that view. So please go an find another thread Paz and enjoy your CBR.

[paz]

I have no cbr.
Unavailability of parts for old bikes is well understood.
Your fault is electric.
Tacho will not show anything.
Used cdi is not thousands usd.
You are persistent unfortunately is not like faults are in places according to you convenience. Ack that or keep tinkering.
Good luck

Edited February 26, 2014 by paz

[yankee99]

again for the umpteen time, you need a new cdi and or pickup. physical inspection means nothing. Or sell as is and get something else that works.

again for the umteenth time, I have changed the coils, not for new coils as they are not available, but coils already tested on another bike. There are two CDI's on this bike and they are not available here either. If you wish to spend a few thousand dollars on these coils and CDI's on the off chance that one will fix my bike, I will happy to except them.

Do you not understand this is not a Honda Wave 110, with stocks of cheap spares available everywhere, it a 30 year old bike, produced over a period of less than three years, in Japan, exclusively for the home market.

I am doing my best with what I can get hold of here in terms of spares and before I go to any more expense replacing parts, namely CDI's, I want to establish one thing. Is the fault electrical or petrol in origin? This, I hope, can be determined by the use of a digital tachometer.

If your attitude is to "throw in the towel" and sell something just because it can't be fixed immediately, I do not share that view. So please go an find another thread Paz and enjoy your CBR.

99% positive this is it sadly its not in the $1000s

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Honda-VT500-CDI-131100-3552-/181333183874?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item2a384ccd82&vxp=mtr

[Spoonman]

again for the umpteen time, you need a new cdi and or pickup. physical inspection means nothing. Or sell as is and get something else that works.

again for the umteenth time, I have changed the coils, not for new coils as they are not available, but coils already tested on another bike. There are two CDI's on this bike and they are not available here either. If you wish to spend a few thousand dollars on these coils and CDI's on the off chance that one will fix my bike, I will happy to except them.

Do you not understand this is not a Honda Wave 110, with stocks of cheap spares available everywhere, it a 30 year old bike, produced over a period of less than three years, in Japan, exclusively for the home market.

I am doing my best with what I can get hold of here in terms of spares and before I go to any more expense replacing parts, namely CDI's, I want to establish one thing. Is the fault electrical or petrol in origin? This, I hope, can be determined by the use of a digital tachometer.

If your attitude is to "throw in the towel" and sell something just because it can't be fixed immediately, I do not share that view. So please go an find another thread Paz and enjoy your CBR.

99% positive this is it sadly its not in the $1000s

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Honda-VT500-CDI-131100-3552-/181333183874?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item2a384ccd82&vxp=mtr

Errrm a new CDI is $380 and a coil is $100. As the bike needs 2 of each the total is pretty damn close to $1000.00....ouch.

A lot of coin to spend not knowing if the actual fault lies in them.

[yankee99]

again for the umpteen time, you need a new cdi and or pickup. physical inspection means nothing. Or sell as is and get something else that works.

again for the umteenth time, I have changed the coils, not for new coils as they are not available, but coils already tested on another bike. There are two CDI's on this bike and they are not available here either. If you wish to spend a few thousand dollars on these coils and CDI's on the off chance that one will fix my bike, I will happy to except them.

Do you not understand this is not a Honda Wave 110, with stocks of cheap spares available everywhere, it a 30 year old bike, produced over a period of less than three years, in Japan, exclusively for the home market.

I am doing my best with what I can get hold of here in terms of spares and before I go to any more expense replacing parts, namely CDI's, I want to establish one thing. Is the fault electrical or petrol in origin? This, I hope, can be determined by the use of a digital tachometer.

If your attitude is to "throw in the towel" and sell something just because it can't be fixed immediately, I do not share that view. So please go an find another thread Paz and enjoy your CBR.

99% positive this is it sadly its not in the $1000s

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Honda-VT500-CDI-131100-3552-/181333183874?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item2a384ccd82&vxp=mtr

Errrm a new CDI is $380 and a coil is $100. As the bike needs 2 of each the total is pretty dam_n close to $1000.00....ouch.

A lot of coin to spend not knowing if the actual fault lies in them.

What are the odds of two cdi and two coils failing at the same time? 1,000,000-1

[AllanB]

again for the umpteen time, you need a new cdi and or pickup. physical inspection means nothing. Or sell as is and get something else that works.

again for the umteenth time, I have changed the coils, not for new coils as they are not available, but coils already tested on another bike. There are two CDI's on this bike and they are not available here either. If you wish to spend a few thousand dollars on these coils and CDI's on the off chance that one will fix my bike, I will happy to except them.

Do you not understand this is not a Honda Wave 110, with stocks of cheap spares available everywhere, it a 30 year old bike, produced over a period of less than three years, in Japan, exclusively for the home market.

I am doing my best with what I can get hold of here in terms of spares and before I go to any more expense replacing parts, namely CDI's, I want to establish one thing. Is the fault electrical or petrol in origin? This, I hope, can be determined by the use of a digital tachometer.

If your attitude is to "throw in the towel" and sell something just because it can't be fixed immediately, I do not share that view. So please go an find another thread Paz and enjoy your CBR.

99% positive this is it sadly its not in the $1000s

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Honda-VT500-CDI-131100-3552-/181333183874?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item2a384ccd82&vxp=mtr

Errrm a new CDI is $380 and a coil is $100. As the bike needs 2 of each the total is pretty dam_n close to $1000.00....ouch.

A lot of coin to spend not knowing if the actual fault lies in them.

Exactly... thank you, but add shipping and any import duty they decide to impose if it is a "Friday" and it is well over $1000 and that is about what I paid for the bike. It is possible I will need one or more of these and it is fairly certain that the fault is at least in part electrical, but throwing money around is not the way to solve such problems.

A digital tachometer is about £10 and not only will it identify whether there is an electrical problem or not, but hopefully what/where it is. Here is how that theory works.

1. During my restarting problem I have the d/tacho attached to cylinder one, I sense no misfire as the d/tacho reads the same as my bikes mechanical tacho.

2. During my next restarting problem I have the d/tacho attached to cylinder two, I sense a misfire as the d/tacho reads lower than my m/tacho, so I know the fault is with either the CDI/2 or the coil/2.

3. I swap the coils and if the misfire remains on cylinder one, I know that CDI/2 is at fault, if it goes I know that both CDI's are good.

4. If I get a misfire on both, the problem is more difficult to diagnose, but at least the fault is electrical.

5. If I get a misfire on neither I know the fault is not electrical.

There may be other factors involved within the electrics but at least I getting closer and all for a few quid.

[wantan]

At least you believe in your theories, thats most important. Good luck. I really enjoy this thread

[AllanB]

Cheaper than I thought, if it gets here and works, just $10 all in.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190897546325

[AllanB]

Something of a development...in the words of Basil Fauty, I told her yesterday "I'm going to give you a damn good thrashing".

Yesterday I took a trip down to Tesco and opened her up to cross the Mittaparp Road, when something broke and the engine started to misfire big time, but only one one cylinder.

So I discovered it was the rear cylinder, by removing plug leads.

Fitted another coil to C2 and no difference, so not the coil.

Next I swapped the CDI leads over and the fault remained on C2, so not the CDI

Next I belled out the two wires from the CD2 to coil2, no problem.

Now bearing in mind the heat related problem too, I suspect the sensor/pickup for C2

So anyone changed on of these before?

Or before I begin can anyone think of anything else?

I know where they are and it don't look easy, so any advice would be really helpful.

.....and before you complain, I know I referred to the bike as "she", but I think after all this agro, she has earned it.

[VocalNeal]

Allan,

I know you don't think it is but did you swap over the plugs from C1 to C2?

Always check the cheapest option first!

[AllanB]

Allan,

I know you don't think it is but did you swap over the plugs from C1 to C2?

Always check the cheapest option first!

Good point thanks, as changing the sensor looks a bitch of a job, drain engine oil and pretty sure engine out too, certainly exhaust system off. Hope I can get a gasket and a new "trigger" I think it is called by most.

I was a little annoyed I took the stator out, when I could have done one more check that I didn't think of, don't wanner do that again.

What worries me the most, is that this job doesn't appear on youtube very much, which implies, it don't go wrong. Ones I have seen are in the dry part of the engine, mine is in the oil.

....Anyway put new plugs in C2 no difference, plugs in C2 soaked in petrol. Easy enough, so worth a try though.

[KRS1]

check inside the sparkplug boot and see if there is a slit for a flathead screwdriver....some hondas (cbr 150-250 do) have a resistor inside the boot.

swap resistors if you got them and see if it still happens.

If your bike has PAIR valves, try plugging them up. On some bikes an aftermarket exhaust exhaust can cause misfire, remedy for the ER6N is to plug the PAIR.

[AllanB]

check inside the sparkplug boot and see if there is a slit for a flathead screwdriver....some hondas (cbr 150-250 do) have a resistor inside the boot.

swap resistors if you got them and see if it still happens.

If your bike has PAIR valves, try plugging them up. On some bikes an aftermarket exhaust exhaust can cause misfire, remedy for the ER6N is to plug the PAIR.

Checked. No silt or anything in the plug holes and remember it is twin spark anyway, but will swap the plug caps next.

Just read up on what PAIR valves are, aren't they something relatively new and fitted on injection engines, my NV is 30 years old, also the problem is 100% electrical on half the engine, unburned fuel in C2.

Actually I just noticed the frames splits on one side, so no need to remove the engine, just oil out, exhausts off, split frame and remove cover plate. And nothing looks awkward.....er! famous last words.

My guess is that one trigger was loose and has now fallen off. We shall see.

[KRS1]

PAIR valves are also on carb bikes, they just inject air into the exhaust for cleaner emissions. Theyve been around for a while, but i dont know about 30 years.

They work on vacuum and usually get the vacuum from the intake manifold.

[AllanB]

PAIR valves are also on carb bikes, they just inject air into the exhaust for cleaner emissions. Theyve been around for a while, but i dont know about 30 years.

They work on vacuum and usually get the vacuum from the intake manifold.

Never heard of it, but if was only for bikes, that's why. Is it for real, or are you merely diluting the dirty air with clean air? Don't really understand how it cleans.

Been looking at the weather forecast for the next few days and it don't look good, 38c (100f in old money) and I hate working in that sort of heat, think I'll spend the day in the pool instead, just an hour or so on the bike early morning before breakfast. "Mad dogs and Englishmen go out in the midday sun", well not this one.

[seedy]

Never heard of it, but if was only for bikes, that's why. Is it for real, or are you merely diluting the dirty air with clean air? Don't really understand how it cleans.

If memory serves it injects ambient air into the exhaust system to burn any unburnt fuel.

More of the BS in the name of cleaner air. Window dressing for sure.

[Woodsie888]

PAIR valves are also on carb bikes, they just inject air into the exhaust for cleaner emissions. Theyve been around for a while, but i dont know about 30 years.

They work on vacuum and usually get the vacuum from the intake manifold.

Never heard of it, but if was only for bikes, that's why. Is it for real, or are you merely diluting the dirty air with clean air? Don't really understand how it cleans.

Been looking at the weather forecast for the next few days and it don't look good, 38c (100f in old money) and I hate working in that sort of heat, think I'll spend the day in the pool instead, just an hour or so on the bike early morning before breakfast. "Mad dogs and Englishmen go out in the midday sun", well not this one.

it won't cause a misfire, but popping on the overrun.

[KRS1]

PAIR valves are also on carb bikes, they just inject air into the exhaust for cleaner emissions. Theyve been around for a while, but i dont know about 30 years.

They work on vacuum and usually get the vacuum from the intake manifold.

Never heard of it, but if was only for bikes, that's why. Is it for real, or are you merely diluting the dirty air with clean air? Don't really understand how it cleans.

Been looking at the weather forecast for the next few days and it don't look good, 38c (100f in old money) and I hate working in that sort of heat, think I'll spend the day in the pool instead, just an hour or so on the bike early morning before breakfast. "Mad dogs and Englishmen go out in the midday sun", well not this one.

it won't cause a misfire, but popping on the overrun.

AllenB wouldnt know the difference

[AllanB]

This problem does run on a bit, yet another disappointment. Took the clutch cover panel off, expecting to find one of the triggers loose, given the recent symptoms of down to firing on one cylinder and found nothing untoward. I little bit of dirt on both triggers, but checking out the resistances both measure 43ohms. I assume that if we get the same reading all is well, anyone know a better way to test then before I reassemble?

The digital tacho still hasn't arrived from China and that will help us a lot, meanwhile we are thinking a sticky float chamber valve, as one float chamber has much more fuel than the other. We are thinking that the misfire could be caused by number 2 cylinder flooding and drowning the sparks.

[yankee99]

This problem does run on a bit, yet another disappointment. Took the clutch cover panel off, expecting to find one of the triggers loose, given the recent symptoms of down to firing on one cylinder and found nothing untoward. I little bit of dirt on both triggers, but checking out the resistances both measure 43ohms. I assume that if we get the same reading all is well, anyone know a better way to test then before I reassemble?

The digital tacho still hasn't arrived from China and that will help us a lot, meanwhile we are thinking a sticky float chamber valve, as one float chamber has much more fuel than the other. We are thinking that the misfire could be caused by number 2 cylinder flooding and drowning the sparks.

Really ? Like one hundred posts back I asked for photos of the plugs and you couldn't do it but said they were OK.