Pheu Thai hoping former Democrat may help with peace talks

[Piichai]

BTW, how and what has the Shinawatra family did that were so evil and impeding the growth, progress and prosperity of Thailand?

If you really don't know... I'd say the 2,500 or so extrajudicial killings qualifies as evil. And as far as impeding the growth, progress, and prosperity of Thailand goes, you can start with the rice scam and carry on from there.

The so-called "rice scam" was not a scam but an honest effort to provide farmers with fair payment for their crops, albeit with an initial government subsidy designed not to delay payment. A payment that historically was based on what middlemen decided for the farmers and not a fair payment, keeping farmers in essentially servitude poverty. This plan was met with approval from a constitutionally elected parliament and legal in all aspects. If the program fell short of required revenues to fully meet farmer prices, that was the nature of the marketplace, that was the result of a worldwide economic effect, and not by some conspiracy by the Government to deceive farmers. But one must ask, what did the Democrats provide during their own regime to improve the standard of living for farmers, the poor that allows them to be so judgmental of PTP's efforts? Sorry but the sixty second clock ran out.

The rice scam enriched no one but Thaksin's cronies, who began filling their pockets from the get go. Not only did the poor farmers have to suffer increased rents and costs of doing business, we now discover that many of them haven't been paid.

We're sure to discover more now that investigations of Yingluck and others are underway.

[rogerdee123]

Oh my ... the peanut gallery has now arrived.

[Siripon]

BTW, how and what has the Shinawatra family did that were so evil and impeding the growth, progress and prosperity of Thailand?

If you really don't know... I'd say the 2,500 or so extrajudicial killings qualifies as evil. And as far as impeding the growth, progress, and prosperity of Thailand goes, you can start with the rice scam and carry on from there.

The so-called "rice scam" was not a scam but an honest effort to provide farmers with fair payment for their crops, albeit with an initial government subsidy designed not to delay payment. A payment that historically was based on what middlemen decided for the farmers and not a fair payment, keeping farmers in essentially servitude poverty. This plan was met with approval from a constitutionally elected parliament and legal in all aspects. If the program fell short of required revenues to fully meet farmer prices, that was the nature of the marketplace, that was the result of a worldwide economic effect, and not by some conspiracy by the Government to deceive farmers. But one must ask, what did the Democrats provide during their own regime to improve the standard of living for farmers, the poor that allows them to be so judgmental of PTP's efforts? Sorry but the sixty second clock ran out.

The Democrats guaranteed prices for several crops, if the price fell below the original market price, the difference was paid. Farmers were paid according to how much land they farmed.

The rice scam is full of holes-

1. Every grain of rice is guaranteed almost twice the market price. Thus no farmer cares about the quality- the lower the better.

2. Loopholes for recycling rice for the middle men, rice from Cambodia, Laos, Burma, Malaysia- Thai taxpayer subsidizes- excellent chance for widespread corruption.

3. The rich farmer benefits, the poor hardly at all as his rice ( 7 rai or less is for consumption, not for sale)

4. Can't export because nobody will buy at artificial prices.

5 Rice stock grows and rots.

6 Government refuses to issue any details about sales- top secret.

A stupid, corrupt and wasteful scheme.

[Evolare]

BTW, how and what has the Shinawatra family did that were so evil and impeding the growth, progress and prosperity of Thailand?

If you really don't know... I'd say the 2,500 or so extrajudicial killings qualifies as evil. And as far as impeding the growth, progress, and prosperity of Thailand goes, you can start with the rice scam and carry on from there.

The so-called "rice scam" was not a scam but an honest effort to provide farmers with fair payment for their crops, albeit with an initial government subsidy designed not to delay payment. A payment that historically was based on what middlemen decided for the farmers and not a fair payment, keeping farmers in essentially servitude poverty. This plan was met with approval from a constitutionally elected parliament and legal in all aspects. If the program fell short of required revenues to fully meet farmer prices, that was the nature of the marketplace, that was the result of a worldwide economic effect, and not by some conspiracy by the Government to deceive farmers. But one must ask, what did the Democrats provide during their own regime to improve the standard of living for farmers, the poor that allows them to be so judgmental of PTP's efforts? Sorry but the sixty second clock ran out.

actually your wrong not an honest effort and they where promising to buy the rice over world market price and after doing that who will buy it when they can buy the rice from neighboring countries at almost half the price. a smarter thing would be to facilitate the sales at going market rates of the farmers rice at not charge or comission charge with instant payment and cutting out the middleman. this was a way to buy votes and failed economically and have destroyed the thai rice economy.

[bino]

Just let you know that members of my families have proud heritage from the Lanna period.

If you are Thai, why aren't you out there trying to make a difference instead of sitting online arguing with foreigners who really have no say at all in the matter?

How do you know that I am not? I am arguing with foreigners? I treasure their many opinions and comments made here though I do not agree with some of them. However, you can easily find many are making baseless unsubstantiated accusations. I am on the side of justice, fairness and rule of law. Only accusations with substance and according to principle of justice and evidence will have any legitimacy and credence. I hope you saw the pattern of most of my opinions, comments and rebuttals.

You proudly boast of Lanna ancestry. As such, your ancestors come from the northern / Chiang Mai region of Thailand, which is coincidentally the ancestral home of the Shinawatra family.

Arguing with foreigners? Well, yes. You may just be what another member has laballed you; a Thaksin Troll. You're vehemently defending a criminal who has chosen to run away and hide instead of being accountable for his actions. You have to know the kind of response this is going to provoke on this forum.

Whether you are Thai or not, you have been drinking too much of the Shinawatra kool-aid.

[Piichai]

BTW, how and what has the Shinawatra family did that were so evil and impeding the growth, progress and prosperity of Thailand?

If you really don't know... I'd say the 2,500 or so extrajudicial killings qualifies as evil. And as far as impeding the growth, progress, and prosperity of Thailand goes, you can start with the rice scam and carry on from there.

Can you also start with free or subsidized healthcare, subsidized gasoline, first time auto buyer discounts, and higher minimium wages? Also a comprehensive plan for flood control to help protect Bangkok industries and residents that has never been addressed before? Or do you start with a government and economic shutdown that has been responsible for the fall of the Thailand stock market, loss of tourism, drop in the baht, etc. that was triggered by Suthep's insurrection? If you want to attack evil, look around you, sir.

If I must...

"subsidized healthcare": My recollection is that the Democrats proposed free healthcare, but as the great and powerful Thaksin couldn't be seen to sign on to a Democrat proposal, he decided to make his own proposal and have the poor pay 30 THB instead of getting healthcare for free. You might argue that the poor can certainly afford 30 THB for healthcare, but then we find out that it actually costs more than 30THB to collect the 30 THB, thus screwing the tax payer *and* the poor at the same time.

"subsidized gasoline": I, for one, certainly benefited by cheaper gasoline prices. But the subsidy wasn't much and IIRC wasn't in force during the auto buyer discounts. IMO, the wrong way to try helping the poor.

"first time auto buyer discounts": Tax rebates, right? You're obviously not a daily-driver anywhere near Bangkok if you think that was a good idea. The scheme certainly benefited the sons and daughters of Thaksin's cronies as they're all driving new Benzs and Ducatis now. But for the poor, things didn't work out so well. They're having problems keeping up with the payments now that food prices are rising, and on top of that, if the poor farmers haven't been paid, how are going to pay their loan obligations. Should also mention that it's another Thaksin program that the government didn't have enough money to fund.

"comprehensive plan for flood control": In Rangsit, comprehensive flood control consisted of raising Rangsit - Nakon Nayok Road about six inches. I'm sure it cost millions to raise the road, and many millions more were used to line the pockets of Thaksin's cronies, but as the flood was well over a meter in that area, I doubt raising the road will help much. Oh, and not only that, the work was so poorly done that they ruined what little crown in the road there was, and the road now floods when it rains. Sheesh...

Try to understand that people are not in the streets because of Suthep, but rather Suthep is in the streets because of the people. People have been becoming increasingly dissatisfied with the Shin clan for some time, and now we see things are coming to a head. Things were already headed in the wrong direction before there were crowds in the streets.

Back then, long time ago, when grass was green, and I made my living in the wild world, I was mentored to always address the biggest threat first. I don't know if Suthep is as bad as all the Red lovers say he is, but even if he is, Suthep doesn't seem as bad as Thaksin. Additionally, now can be a time for true electoral reform, and if done well, electoral reform would affect Thailand's political landscape at large, not just Thaksin.

Edited January 27, 2014 by Piichai

[Piichai]

Double post.

Edited January 27, 2014 by Piichai

[Evolare]

BTW, how and what has the Shinawatra family did that were so evil and impeding the growth, progress and prosperity of Thailand?

If you really don't know... I'd say the 2,500 or so extrajudicial killings qualifies as evil. And as far as impeding the growth, progress, and prosperity of Thailand goes, you can start with the rice scam and carry on from there.

Can you also start with free or subsidized healthcare, subsidized gasoline, first time auto buyer discounts, and higher minimium wages? Also a comprehensive plan for flood control to help protect Bangkok industries and residents that has never been addressed before? Or do you start with a government and economic shutdown that has been responsible for the fall of the Thailand stock market, loss of tourism, drop in the baht, etc. that was triggered by Suthep's insurrection? If you want to attack evil, look around you, sir.

If I must...

"subsidized healthcare": My recollection is that the Democrats proposed free healthcare, but as the great and powerful Thaksin couldn't be seen to sign on to a Democrat proposal, he decided to make his own proposal and have the poor pay 30 THB instead of getting healthcare for free. You might argue that the poor can certainly afford 30 THB for healthcare, but then we find out that it actually costs more than 30THB to collect the 30 THB, thus screwing the tax payer *and* the poor at the same time.

"subsidized gasoline": I, for one, certainly benefited by cheaper gasoline prices. But the subsidy wasn't much and IIRC wasn't in force during the auto buyer discounts. IMO, the wrong way to try helping the poor.

"first time auto buyer discounts": Tax rebates, right? You're obviously not a daily-driver anywhere near Bangkok if you think that was a good idea. The scheme certainly benefited the sons and daughters of Thaksin's cronies as they're all driving new Benzs and Ducatis now. But for the poor, things didn't work out so well. They're having problems keeping up with the payments now that food prices are rising, and on top of that, if the poor farmers haven't been paid, how are going to pay their loan obligations. Should also mention that it's another Thaksin program that the government didn't have enough money to fund.

"comprehensive plan for flood control": In Rangsit, comprehensive flood control consisted of raising Rangsit - Nakon Nayok Road about six inches. I'm sure it cost millions to raise the road, and many millions more were used to line the pockets of Thaksin's cronies, but as the flood was well over a meter in that area, I doubt raising the road will help much. Oh, and not only that, the work was so poorly done that they ruined what little crown in the road there was, and the road now floods when it rains. Sheesh...

Try to understand that people are not in the streets because of Suthep, but rather Suthep is in the streets because of the people. People have been becoming increasingly dissatisfied with the Shin clan for some time, and now we see things are coming to a head. Things were already headed in the wrong direction before there were crowds in the streets.

Back then, long time ago, when grass was green, and I made my living in the wild world, I was mentored to always address the biggest threat first. I don't know if Suthep is as bad as all the Red lovers say he is, but even if he is, Suthep doesn't seem as bad as Thaksin. Additionally, now can be a time for true electoral reform, and if done well, electoral reform would affect Thailand's political landscape at large, not just Thaksin.

WORD!

I couldnt have said it better myself!

[Skywalker69]

BTW, how and what has the Shinawatra family did that were so evil and impeding the growth, progress and prosperity of Thailand?

If you really don't know... I'd say the 2,500 or so extrajudicial killings qualifies as evil. And as far as impeding the growth, progress, and prosperity of Thailand goes, you can start with the rice scam and carry on from there.

The so-called "rice scam" was not a scam but an honest effort to provide farmers with fair payment for their crops, albeit with an initial government subsidy designed not to delay payment. A payment that historically was based on what middlemen decided for the farmers and not a fair payment, keeping farmers in essentially servitude poverty. This plan was met with approval from a constitutionally elected parliament and legal in all aspects. If the program fell short of required revenues to fully meet farmer prices, that was the nature of the marketplace, that was the result of a worldwide economic effect, and not by some conspiracy by the Government to deceive farmers. But one must ask, what did the Democrats provide during their own regime to improve the standard of living for farmers, the poor that allows them to be so judgmental of PTP's efforts? Sorry but the sixty second clock ran out.

Honest effort? Do you mean that? Buying 500 THB and pay 1000THB? Come on! No you se the result, rice farmers have not got their money since October. The Thai rice export is destroyed for many years to come.

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[JoeThePoster]

"We offered to negotiate with Suthep via 'Mr N' - a veteran Democrat Party politician he respected," the source said.

I don't think Mr. N could achieve much without help from Mr. U, Mr. T and Mr. S.

[siampolee]

A key member of the Pheu Thai Party, who asked not to be named, said Yingluck and her fellow party members knew the poll would be the end of only the first round of the battle, and would lead to another problem.

Above in a nutshell is the root of the problem. there is nor has there ever been any idea of actually delaying the election process.It's all about the desperate means to retain and consolidate power in one creatures hand and its family's hand.

A new ruling political dynasty (Dictatorship) to be established to enhance the ongoing corruption, nepotism, manipulation of the judicial system and the whitewashing and a pardon for a convicted bail jumping felon. As an extra avenue to the aims of this creature and its family there is indeed a strong desire to throttle what little currently passes for democracy here in Thailand.

Remove the Shinwatra clan from the political area and even better the country, we will then see a far more settled and balanced society politically and socially.

[Robby nz]

As to the question of what the Dems did for the poor :

Well for a start they had in place an affordable farmers subsidy scheme which paid money directly to the farmers.

It did not break the bank or the country.

It did not result in a rice mountain that will probably never be sold.

It did not result in Thailand losing its place as the worlds No 1 rice exporter.

It did not destroy the reputation of Thailand for a quality rice product.

And then they increased the age of free education from 12 to 15 and had a package of education reforms on the table which PT dumped in favor of tablets.

They made the 30 b health scheme free because it was costing more to administer than it brought in.

There are more but if you really want to know you should look for yourself.

Of course if you are not really interested then troll on.

[firestar]

"We tried to find solutions to end the protests. Suthep could achieve some demands [even though] he failed to oust Yingluck from her position. For example, if the 'People's Council' proposed by the PDRC was implemented in some context, he could claim and declare a 'people's victory'"

THIS is the kind of offer that could allow Thailand to move forward, unfortunately contrary to the claim they wish reconciliation and work for the good of Thailand the Anti-Thaksin crowd only subscribe to the "one evil man" theory.

[gemini81]

PR stunt. PTP love violence, not peace.

[Dogmatix]

He said it was not fair for members of the Shinawatra family if the protesters called for them to get out.

Why is this unfair? They are entitled to express their views on who they think is positive or negative for the country. The Shinos have chosen to behave in such a way over many years that many Thais hate them and don't want to be ruled by them. They could have behaved differently but they didn't .

[inutil]

Desperate?

Some of you people are genuinely unable to see the wood here. PTP will romp the election. They will set up a government. They will enforce a crackdown claiming their support in the election as sufficient popular will and a clear mandate.

Next they will UNILATERALLY decide (because they will have absolutely no political opposition worth a toss) whether to get into negotiation with the sidelined democrats and reschedule a second poll within 2 years (possibly even within one year - though unlikely). They will then dictate the agenda of reform and be in complete control of the negotiations. The dems will come out with something, just as the liberal dems in the UK came out with something. But the agenda will be PTPs.

The democrats will be facing a crushing civil war of their own between hardliners who will absolutely reject any negotiation with PTP and moderates who just want their job back as member of the thai parliament (and all the access that comes with it). They will also be infuriated by the support and backing of Suthep who they will rightly (from genuine experience) consider an egomaniacal lunatic.

The democrat vote will then split into radical and moderate factions with the more extreme wing actually standing against their own party in former strongholds (with the backing of them what are backing suthep currently). This will benefit the parties who have fielded candidates and gained MP in this (current) round of elections.

PTP will consolidate its support based almost entirely on the handling of this protest and the continual calls for negotiation (something this article does a marvelous job of reinforcing without any sources or any actual credible information - we tried to negotiate! We gave them everything they wanted! We did our best for the Thai people! Look how tolerant and peaceful we are and look how intransigent and set on confrontation they are!). They will also gain support from the people who turned against them after the red shirt violence in 2010. They will have made huge gains, retaken "lost" areas, and will hold almost all the cards in the next stage. The perception is very clear on this one. The mass of the population wants an end to this conflict. The elections are barely a week away (assuming no delay), the army still have no legitimate reason to leave their barracks (any attempt to do so would be viewed as transparently anti-democratic), so its game over and mop up time.

Indeed its been game over since the big shutdown turned into nothing more than a big fun day out for the family. It had no staying power, and no anger. It was an excuse for a day out and a party. Which was BRILLIANT, dont get me wrong. If only more protests were like that (sans police and allowed breathing room). But it was clear that the critical mass wouldnt be reached to claim any kind of popular will. It was also clear to anyone with eyes that the only result was a genuine loss of interest necessitating more extreme actions to re-engage the faithful and incite the ire of the Thai people. But it just never really exploded. Indeed, were it not for the shooting of the student leader, the international news would simply be posting image after image of nicely dressed youngish thai ladies marching through protesters and climbing gates to exercise their democratic right. Thats media catnip! You couldnt ask for a more perfect mix of feel good news.

So its done. Theres one more hoop to jump through, but i guarantee you this: the world is primed for bloodshed, but its primed to accept that the security forces will be deployed to protect the election and the rights of the Thai people to vote which means that despite three months of bleating on about unfair elections, the message has not and will not reach the voices of anyone outside the constituency of Suthep and his supporters. The world will see only Thai people either voting in another four years of PTP and Yingluck (gleefully), or a core group of hard line radicals trying to prevent this. If the army hold back any longer, theyve got no more role in this game. If they dont, they will bring massive outcry from not only the world (who cares though?) but also the Thai people. And things will get ugly very quickly.

No one wants a bloodbath. And hopefully no one will get one. Im not saying this to say youre all wrong for calling for reform. The country has corruption coming out of the whazzooo! and PTP (and its incarnations) are culpable for a great deal of it (since they have been in power for the better part of the last 20 years after all). But its time to look forward if the Thai people dont want to keep repeating the same dumb cycle over and over again. The yellows can call on the army, the reds can call on the mass. Amd so itll keep going every two years as the opposite side start getting comfortable in government. Reform will be cross party or not at all.

Edited January 27, 2014 by inutil

[siampolee]

perhaps a trifle off of topic perhaps not.

At the time of Thaksins first election success in and his assuming of the post of Thai Prime Minister in 2001 I was working for a member of his family, an older aunt.

I was in her office and we were discussion his success.

Her comment was.'' Oh dear now Thailand is going to have big problems as my nephew is only interested in his own ideas.''

The old lady is still alive and we keep in touch, even now she is totally ashamed of her family connection to the Shinwatra clan.

[ggold]

Negotiation between the DEM and its PDRC and the Government. Is it fair to all the other smaller parties? Are their voices not important? Have they been consulted and find out how they feel?

BTW, how and what has the Shinawatra family did that were so evil and impeding the growth, progress and prosperity of Thailand?

BTW, how and what has the Shinawatra family did that were so evil and impeding the growth, progress and prosperity of Thailand?

[siampolee]

ggold post # 48

BTW, how and what has the Shinawatra family did that were so evil and impeding the growth, progress and prosperity of Thailand?

The Shinwatra clique created a boom in the tailoring industry due to all P.T.P. politicians having suits made with large number of very large pockets to accommodate the monies received via their ''commission payments and of course the Thaksin stipend.

A former P.T.P. transport minister caused a boom in the cardboard box manufacturing industry so as he could store his departments income in his house too.

Also the makers of propellers for boats made a killing in the flooding mishap too.

The list is endless as to how the Shinwatra clan benefited Thai industry and the Thai people.

[tingtongteesood]

BTW, how and what has the Shinawatra family did that were so evil and impeding the growth, progress and prosperity of Thailand?

If you really don't know... I'd say the 2,500 or so extrajudicial killings qualifies as evil. And as far as impeding the growth, progress, and prosperity of Thailand goes, you can start with the rice scam and carry on from there.

Can you also start with free or subsidized healthcare, subsidized gasoline, first time auto buyer discounts, and higher minimium wages? Also a comprehensive plan for flood control to help protect Bangkok industries and residents that has never been addressed before? Or do you start with a government and economic shutdown that has been responsible for the fall of the Thailand stock market, loss of tourism, drop in the baht, etc. that was triggered by Suthep's insurrection? If you want to attack evil, look around you, sir.

If you had even the simplest grasp of economics then you would understand how bad most of this has been for the country as a whole...,.oh what's the use, some people are so blinded by the bs they just can't understand the truth....

[tingtongteesood]

Negotiation between the DEM and its PDRC and the Government. Is it fair to all the other smaller parties? Are their voices not important? Have they been consulted and find out how they feel?

BTW, how and what has the Shinawatra family did that were so evil and impeding the growth, progress and prosperity of Thailand?

Many people have repeated it many times but you just don't want to believe it. What do you believe they have done in the last 5 years that is good for the country?

Minimum wage increase for one, computers for schools, a failed rice pledging scheme and a few more mentioned above in another post etc. etc., so please enlighten us as to what the Dems have done for the good of the poor people and the country.

Minimum wage increase for one - which led to price rises and higher inflation essentially cancelling out any increase. Many businesses decided to move to cheaper neighbouring Cambodia and Myanmar meaning loss of money to the country.

computers for schools - Cheap crap that half the time doesnt work and when it does mostly the kids play games on them. There is little in the way of good educational software for them and most teachers dont know how to use them or incorporate them into lessons.

a failed rice pledging scheme - which was doomed from the start and a total waste of tax payers money leading to massive losses for the country, a mountain of rotting rice bought at 40% above market prices that nobody wants and lost Thailand the spot as top rice exporter it had held for over 30 years.,

ALL COMPLETE AND UTTER STUPIDITY ! What else you got sparky ? What they did has been good for getting votes from the poor, but disastrous to the economy for the most part.

and a few more mentioned above in another post etc. etc., so please enlighten us as to what the Dems have done for the good of the poor people and the country.